Um, no, the best coverage is obviously Purrloin with Pursuit/Shadow Claw.
/sarcasm
/sarcasm
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In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Colonel M
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Cincinno to High, gave my reason before.
Discuss!
Discuss!
Cincinno has ok coverage but you need to level it up for WUSlap. You really only need Tail Slap and Wake Up Slap though, so you can stick Rock Blast as your 3rd move and last move is filler, prolly Bullet Seed, Sing or Work Up.
Please tell me you're just trolling. Pretty please.
Poison Jab is not better against "anything that resists Grass", which is something that should be painfully obvious using elementary school math. 120 * 1.5 / 2 > 80. This is not up for debate. 102 > 80. This is not up for debate, either.
Even if we pretend that Poison Jab has a 100% Poison rate for a moment, you have to determine if it is better than the extra 22 Power from Return. If it would take more than a 176 Power attack to OHKO the target, then yes, Poison Jab + Poison damage will outdamage Return. Unfortunately, if it takes that much damage to KO a target, you are looking at the 2HKO range, which means that the target actually needs to be OHKO'd by a Move between 204 and 214 Power (exclusive) for Poison Jab to outperform Return. That's a really small window.
Of course, that is all assuming a 100% Poison rate and no random variation, but it's still a valid illustration. If you really need me to, I can redo the numbers assuming minimum damage or average damage, but the results still won't be good for Poison Jab.
If you are using the Poison for a more reasonable purpose - damage while using turns doing something other than attacking (Acupressure, SubSeed, whatever), then just use Toxic instead, since it has a much higher chance of success.
Cincinno has awesome coverage. Tail Slap+Bullet Seed+Rock Blast+ Wake Up Slap equals ownage. With those moves, you can hit rock, ground, water, fire, flying, bug, ice, dark, normal, and steel for super effective damage, and whatever actually isnt hit sore SE damage better be able to take a Tail Slap. That's basically 97% percent of the game.
Personally, I view Cinccino as a slightly worse Sawsbuck. The average power for Tail Slap post-Technician is 112.5, which is only about 10 higher than Return (at the cost of 15% accuracy). Bullet Seed averages the same strength as STAB Horn Leech, but doesn't have the drain. Wake-Up Slap is weaker than Jump Kick (though it admittedly has a much less annoying drawback). Rock Blast vs. Megahorn is a matter of preference more than anything.
Both Pokemon have similar Attack, Special Attack, and defenses. Cinccino has a noticeably higher Speed, but Sawsbuck is already fast enough most of the time anyways. Sap Sipper isn't much of an ability, but it's occasionally useful.
Honestly, since Tail Slap has a 47% chance of being worse than Return, a 32% chance of being only slightly better, and some chance of being overkill the remaining 21%, I'd just stick to Return for Cincinno.
Cinccino does have a good movepool, good coverage, and a fun gimmick, but it seems too random for High.
Both Pokemon have similar Attack, Special Attack, and defenses. Cinccino has a noticeably higher Speed, but Sawsbuck is already fast enough most of the time anyways. Sap Sipper isn't much of an ability, but it's occasionally useful.
Honestly, since Tail Slap has a 47% chance of being worse than Return, a 32% chance of being only slightly better, and some chance of being overkill the remaining 21%, I'd just stick to Return for Cincinno.
Cinccino does have a good movepool, good coverage, and a fun gimmick, but it seems too random for High.
I don't see how Sawsbuck being good is stopping Cincinno from getting high tho. You get Cincinno a bit earlier than Sawsbuck, and it's actually quite useful before evolving. But then again, you can catch Sawsbuck as Sawsbuck if you dont wanna put up with Deerling. Cincinno doesnt have to put up with those dang Pokemon with Sturdy tho, which gives it an advantage over Sawsbuck.
I think they both deserve high.
I constantly see comparisons among Return and other moves, where Return's maximum 102 BP is taken for granted. Here's a fun fact: it's entirely possible for one's starter not to have maxed out happiness by the end of the game. How the hell can anyone with half a brain claim that Maractus's Poison Jab or Minchinno's Tail Slap is outdamaged by Return? By the 6th gym Maractus will be hitting with 50 BP or so, and as soon as you obtain Minchinno it's Frustration is stronger lol.
Minccino's surprisingly reliable, nealy always getting the KOs it needs even b4 evolution, but loses usefulness by the 8th gym/ Victory Road in my experience. Its inability to hit stuff supereffectively with STAB really hinders it.
@The Cicada: we can't put everything to high.
Minccino's surprisingly reliable, nealy always getting the KOs it needs even b4 evolution, but loses usefulness by the 8th gym/ Victory Road in my experience. Its inability to hit stuff supereffectively with STAB really hinders it.
@The Cicada: we can't put everything to high.
...Well, my Swadloon evolved into Leavanny at lv25, so I know for sure I can take Return's 90+ BP for granted after the fourth/fifth badge or so for Cincinno.
Maractus, on the other hand, is doomed anyway.
Maractus, on the other hand, is doomed anyway.
Technician basically gives you STAB on bullet seed, rock blast, and wake up slap.
Thats why high and top should be seperated
Fun Fact: My Herdier had maxed Happiness before fighting Lenora. While yes, you are correct in saying that Return will not have 102 Power as soon as a Pokemon is caught, it gains Power quite quickly if you actually use the Pokemon. A Maractus caught when first available should have more than enough happiness to outdamage Poison Jab once it becomes available, which is something that anyone with half a brain can see. A 2-hit Tail Slap will probably outdamage Return when you first get it, but if it still outdamages it during the endgame, you have deeper problems.
Not being able to hit STAB weaknesses isn't that much of a problem. A powerful neutral STAB goes a long way towards keeping a Pokemon relevant until the endgame. My Stoutland was still wiping the floor up until the Elite 4.
@Cicada: I'd say that's more why we need another Mid tier or two. I think an Upper Mid Tier would be the perfect home for Deerling, Minccino, Panpour, etc. - the Pokemon who are solid choices but not absolutely amazing.
I thought this was just a lie to get Seawddle up a tier (and still do). I find it impossible to have maxed out happiness 10 levels after you caught the pokemon. Regularly, Swadloon evolves around mid-thirties, and Return doesn't max out till the E4 unless you caught the pokemon early in the game (b4, say, the fifth badge). Minccino is also available right b4 the 4th gym, so i don't get how you take Return's 90+ BP for granted after the 5th badge...
I agree about moving Cinccino up a tier though. I also feel like Panpour, Ducklett, Venipede, and possibly Sewaddle should be high, while Sigilyph, Tornadus, Tympole, and possibly Scraggy should be mid. This all doesn't really matter in the end, 'coz Colonel_M will take ages to update the thread.
@spweasel: nope, Maractus will rarely have maxed out happiness by the time you get Surf , and anyone with half a brain can figure this out. I never expected you to do so though. Claiming stuff like "Herdier had maxed out happiness b4 Lenora" makes me question whether you have actually played through this game or you're just trolling.
I agree about moving Cinccino up a tier though. I also feel like Panpour, Ducklett, Venipede, and possibly Sewaddle should be high, while Sigilyph, Tornadus, Tympole, and possibly Scraggy should be mid. This all doesn't really matter in the end, 'coz Colonel_M will take ages to update the thread.
@spweasel: nope, Maractus will rarely have maxed out happiness by the time you get Surf , and anyone with half a brain can figure this out. I never expected you to do so though. Claiming stuff like "Herdier had maxed out happiness b4 Lenora" makes me question whether you have actually played through this game or you're just trolling.
i've had max happiness pokemon by the 2nd or 3rd gym. its not that hard if you don't let them faint and keep them with you. from most of your arguments though it seems you haven't played the game, or if you did you purposefully tried to make every pokemon sound terrible.
Ok, so let me get this str8 - pokemon start with a base 70 happiness (max is 255), every 256 steps getting +1 and every level +2. Considering your levels are about 16 by the 2nd gym, a Lilipup caught at lvl 3 will need to have walked 40704 steps with its trainer to have maxed out happiness... I doubt getting from Accumula to Nacrene is as much as 1000 steps, but w/e. Apparently I am the one who hasn't played the game, so i wouldn't know, would i?
And you must have a bunch of massages and running around on the bridge to evolve a Swadloon at lvl 25.
And you must have a bunch of massages and running around on the bridge to evolve a Swadloon at lvl 25.
Have you tested those claims, Vladimir, or are you just making crap up?
Except that I very specifically argued against moving Sewaddle up a tier. You might not have it maxed within 10 levels, but if you don't have it pretty high you're doing something wrong.
Umm... whaaaa?
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You do realize that Scraggy is possibly the single best Pokemon against the Elite 4, N, and Ghetsis, right? And that it is hardly a slouch before that?
Edit: Also, where did you find that a level up increases Happiness by 2? That's the absolute least you'd gain from a level up in any generation (when you're already at or above 200 Happiness). I'm also not convinced that the Happiness system wasn't changed this generation, since it feels like Happiness comes faster this time around (even with taking items into account).
Except that I very specifically argued against moving Sewaddle up a tier. You might not have it maxed within 10 levels, but if you don't have it pretty high you're doing something wrong.
Define "very early". You are claiming that it takes approximately 20 levels to amass 150 Happiness points. This is a very high estimate, so let's say it takes 15 to get that many (this is still a rather conservative estimation), or 10 Happiness per level. If you walk into the Elite 4 at level 47, that means anything caught below level 30 will be maxed out happiness. Since level 30 is largely considered rather late game...
Scraggy? o_0
Umm... whaaaa?
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You do realize that Scraggy is possibly the single best Pokemon against the Elite 4, N, and Ghetsis, right? And that it is hardly a slouch before that?
Edit: Also, where did you find that a level up increases Happiness by 2? That's the absolute least you'd gain from a level up in any generation (when you're already at or above 200 Happiness). I'm also not convinced that the Happiness system wasn't changed this generation, since it feels like Happiness comes faster this time around (even with taking items into account).
items also boost happiness so whenever you use a potion or berry it goes up a little. then there is grinding here and there. And my pokemon were close to level 20 when i fought the 2nd gym not 16.
I did neither. I simply battled trainers and healed when necessary. I think you are completely overshooting the difficulty of achieving happiness.
I wasn't able to evolve Swadloon until I think 29, maybe 28, going out of my way with (normal) potions and status curing, though not going out of the way with running around. I think she got one massage, and I don't think she ever fainted either. Swadloon could hold her own, to be sure, but she was a bit underwhelming in the end.
Cinccino was excellent in my first playthrough. Tail Slap/Wake-Up Slap/Rock Blast hit hard and fast, while Sing saved my ass more than once. Minccino isn't particularly difficult to find, though you need Technician. He can immediately hold his own with Double-Slap and Dig, with Tail Slap coming in shortly afterwards and WUS coming around the time you can find a Shiny Stone. Technician STAB Tail Slap can hit hard. Of course, there an element of chance, but the potential for a 4 or 5 strike Tail Slap/Rock Blast kept things interesting. Definitely an above-average pokemon for a playthrough.
Cinccino was excellent in my first playthrough. Tail Slap/Wake-Up Slap/Rock Blast hit hard and fast, while Sing saved my ass more than once. Minccino isn't particularly difficult to find, though you need Technician. He can immediately hold his own with Double-Slap and Dig, with Tail Slap coming in shortly afterwards and WUS coming around the time you can find a Shiny Stone. Technician STAB Tail Slap can hit hard. Of course, there an element of chance, but the potential for a 4 or 5 strike Tail Slap/Rock Blast kept things interesting. Definitely an above-average pokemon for a playthrough.
Again, you can buy shittons of Potions, use them whenver Swadloon gets damaged in the desert (I.E. every turn due to sandstorm), and it will evolve with ridiculous speed. Although I'm unsure, I think that happiness can increase in battle; if you want, you can simply sit in the desert, ignore hits, and use potions until you run out.
Basically you can evolve it really fast. Like, pre-30.
Basically you can evolve it really fast. Like, pre-30.
Well yeah, I used a fair share of Potions, but I didn't even think of that (that is, I didn't use them all the time, I even let Sewaddle/Swadloon die a couple times).
And maybe people don't know, but Leavanny evolves with 220 Happiness, not 255; even at lv25, it almost surely won't have a 102 BP Return, it only has it after the fourth gym or so, unless you spam Potions.
And maybe people don't know, but Leavanny evolves with 220 Happiness, not 255; even at lv25, it almost surely won't have a 102 BP Return, it only has it after the fourth gym or so, unless you spam Potions.
Pardon?
He meant that Swad evolves into Leavanny, he just worded it awkwardly.
The whole argument is stemmed from the debate between Return/Poison Jab on Maractus, which I feel is resolved. We all agree that it has good offenses with nicely powered STABs, and both sides point to Return/Poison Jab giving the cactus some decent coverage. I think we can all stand on Maractus' being mid tier regardless of your preference on the coverage attack.
As for Cinccino, I've already given my stance - Mid tier. It comes about half way through the game which is nice, and while it is great against the 6th and 7th gyms, it falters a bit against the 8th gym and has difficulty many OHKOing the E4's pokemon. With those defenses...that isn't good. It can still do stuff, definitely, but Mid tier is where it should stay.
As for Cinccino, I've already given my stance - Mid tier. It comes about half way through the game which is nice, and while it is great against the 6th and 7th gyms, it falters a bit against the 8th gym and has difficulty many OHKOing the E4's pokemon. With those defenses...that isn't good. It can still do stuff, definitely, but Mid tier is where it should stay.
EQ is only available in the post-game, yes, although you can see it shortly after gym 3. It's in a ledged-off segment of Relic Castle that you can only access by going to the other side of the maze area and ascending a long series of staircases.
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