Forgive me for being blunt, but that's because your team sucked, not because you were underleveled. You had way too much redundancy and several notable weaknesses against them (for example, I can't imagine that Marshal was fun when your only choices were Serperior, Zebstrika, and Celebi). I beat them at a lower level the first time through (47-ish going in), and beat them with only 3 Pokemon (and Resharim) the second.
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In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Colonel M
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Forgive me for being blunt, but that's because your team sucked, not because you were underleveled. You had way too much redundancy and several notable weaknesses against them (for example, I can't imagine that Marshal was fun when your only choices were Serperior, Zebstrika, and Celebi). I beat them at a lower level the first time through (47-ish going in), and beat them with only 3 Pokemon (and Resharim) the second.
Terrible. Too slow, and not nearly bulky enough to make up for it. Same with Reuniclus for that matter, but it wasn't as bad as Beeheyem for me (though Reuniclus was a late game pickup. Solosis may very well kick ass early on with early Psyshock and high offenses, it wouldn't surprise me).
Is that really what this tier list is based off of, speedruns? I guess I can see where whimsicott and Swoobat wouldn't make the cut. That sort of playstyle pretty much means the only good pokes are glass cannons, because they OHKO everything. Call me wierd, but that's not exactly my definition of a top-tier pokemon.
I mean, I'm pretty confident that I could beat the game with nothing but a power-leveled Lilipup and an army of sturdy pokes to stall while I revive it(if even necessary).
It's not "speedrunning" in the strictest sense, so much as minimizing time wasted. Given enough Audino grinding, an unevolved Pansear can be just as powerful as anything else in the game. It's still Low Tier, though, because of how long that would take.
How a Pokemon affects the amount of time it takes you to do everything you want in the game is an extremely good metric for its tiering. For example, take Golett - he's actually pretty good given enough time, and is indeed one of the best Marshal counters available. But he takes so long to get to the point where he's good enough to be worthwhile that he is Low Tiered.
To use another example, you'll notice that nobody in this thread has mentioned Subway rewards (at least not that I've seen), even though some of them are pretty amazing. There's nothing stopping you from grinding the first seven trainers until you have enough BP, but it would take forever.
When boiled down to its purest essence, the tier list is basically a list of how much time a Pokemon saves vs. the amount of hassle it provides (since more hassle generally means more wasted time). If you look at the High Tier, you'll mostly see glass-cannon types or ones with extremely good offenses and solid defenses. They also generally are found more or less "along the way", requiring little effort to find and raise. That's because those are the Pokemon who make the game faster and easier.
^For the 100th time, Joltik destroys Skyla and comes at the exact time you get the Lucky Egg. It's really easy to evolve, seriously. Then, after it evolves, it outspeeds everything and has decent power. By the time you make it to the next city, you can teach it Thunder, which murders.
It's the 2nd time LOL. And Joltik loses against Skyla. I didn't want to bring up that subject though - it merely baffles me how Audino grinding, which lasts for a very short period of time, is considered "inefficient", while using a Joltik, which essentially REQUIRES you to Audino grind (or let it leech your party's xp), qualifies as efficient enough for it to be ranked one of the best in-game choices. I only comment on this contradiction.
seriously what are you even talking about? joltik destroys skyla and no you don't need to audino grind.
Nobody said that you have to Audino grind to train Joltik. I don't know where you got that from.
I had no problems using Joltik against Skyla either. He leveled up quickly in the gym, and there were plenty of Pokemon before the gym who he could beat on his own.
I had no problems using Joltik against Skyla either. He leveled up quickly in the gym, and there were plenty of Pokemon before the gym who he could beat on his own.
Joltik>>>>>over Skyla. Mine soloed her with ease and evolved after the battle. yeah, Audino grinding is really necessary (/sarcasm).
i was gona evolve it when it learned crunch at like 42 then i just said f it
so to answer ur question yeah i never evolved it, however i do regret it
These arguments are so laughable i actually enjoy them. Swoobat 2HKOs with Acrobatics. Unfezant & Swanna 2HKO with... everything. Joltik has a base 55 electric type attack (off something like 65 sp.atk) and is outsped by all of them. Yet somehow, you don't just claim that Joltik sweeps through this gym (which isn't feasible), you actually dictate it trains against Skyla. My hand hurts from all the facepalms, really. Galvantula's awesome, but Joltik cannot hold its own even when it has a clear type advantage.
There's gonna be a lot of hate following this post but i'm glad, because reading idiotic exaggerations amuses me. I honestly can't figure out why you all get so defensive the second i mention Joltik, but i don't really care either.
There's gonna be a lot of hate following this post but i'm glad, because reading idiotic exaggerations amuses me. I honestly can't figure out why you all get so defensive the second i mention Joltik, but i don't really care either.
seriously every one of your posts sounds like trolling. we get defensive because you somehow manage to fail with some of the best pokemon, and come up with these absurd arguments against them.
You best be kidding about Joltick, it comes in with just before the flying type gym a few levels lower, has the lucky egg right in the place you get it, and can outspeed and murder everything in that gym.
It's was designed and put there to be "that pokemon that will destroy the next gym" it's almost a deliberate as the monkeys.
It's was designed and put there to be "that pokemon that will destroy the next gym" it's almost a deliberate as the monkeys.
I never found Audino grinding to take long at all to be honest, but maybe it's just me...
The Joltik situation is one of those reasons I really wish there was a Medium-High tier because it's one of those on the line Pokemon.
Also wondering where Timburr would be if you didn't have trade access. I'm thinking mid. Although a bit outclassed it does learn Fighting and Rock moves while levelling up and 105 base Attack is pretty good. It's also a really nice Pokemon to keep Eviolite on so it can just tank and hit things hard with Fighting move+Rock move+Dig. Not as good as Conkeldurr or even Throh and Sawk but it's certainly usable.
The Joltik situation is one of those reasons I really wish there was a Medium-High tier because it's one of those on the line Pokemon.
Also wondering where Timburr would be if you didn't have trade access. I'm thinking mid. Although a bit outclassed it does learn Fighting and Rock moves while levelling up and 105 base Attack is pretty good. It's also a really nice Pokemon to keep Eviolite on so it can just tank and hit things hard with Fighting move+Rock move+Dig. Not as good as Conkeldurr or even Throh and Sawk but it's certainly usable.
I've never used it, but I can see the defense.
So, Skyla is the only trainer in the flying gym, right?
Because we're training Joltik on Audino's obviously, r-tard.
Mid will likely be split soon with Joltik hitting in there.
Though guess who ISN'T going to make it to Top or possibly Upper Mid? Petilil. Yes, this thing is going right back down the gutter where it came from. I am currently using it in my Black run (which means it's the EXP-boosted one), and to put it frankly its situation sucks. We have:
- No real time to train aside from on Plasma Grunt here and there.
- Can't really lead the party since it's slow as shit, which makes simple tasks like running away difficult.
- Bug-type Gym where it gets slaughtered.
- Desert which has Darumakka lying around. Seeing as Petilil is too slow, no time to really grind either.
- Electric-type Gym with Acrobatics flying rodents. You tell me the situation good sir.
It takes about the fucking Ground-type Gym before it hits "okay" status. Against some normal trainers and what not it can... sort of hold its own. Mega Drain is about a 3HKO and Magical Leaf means sacrificing one of your better moves for it. Giga Drain + Quiver Dance is also a mile stretch away, and its situation isn't arguably better since the next two Gyms have Super Effective moves on it and the final Gym having a bunch of Dragon-types. Now granted you can Sleep Powder -> Quiver Dance -> Sweep on some Pokemon, but Ice-type Gym for example has Frost Breath which cuts right through the SpD boost. I mean come on really?
Joltik will drop to Upper Mid being its highest position, obviously. Joltik's situation, once again for perhaps the umpteenth time, is slightly better since it can learn Charge Beam / Volt Change via TM and it's right when you get the Lucky Egg. If Unfeazants and co. 2HKO Joltik, then it shouldn't be difficult to go through the Gym provided you have the potions on you. Not to mention Swanna is x4 weak to Electric-type attacks. The other two Gyms are a different story of course, though it probably isn't AS good in the E4 as people are trying to throw me into (I haven't actually gotten to E4 with Joltik on my team).
I can't recall if IOS used it or not, nor can I remember who used it. Oh, billy. OFC didn't finish. Well then, I guess I may change my mind. Who's hearing Mid Joltik?
I used Joltik in my Black run as well, and in the E4 it was good but not great. It's mostly hitting Psychic and Dark-types with Signal Beam, which works but doesn't KO some of the bulky things, especially with Caitlin. Not to say it wasn't a good team member, it was, but not spectacular. Upper mid overall is perfect.
Petilil... Yeah too bad it's relying on basically only STAB Grass. I guess you could go mid, Quiver Dance might be enough for Upper Mid but just might. I used it on White and it had fun moments but it dragged at times too. Sleep Powder access is really awesome though, I have to admit that.
Petilil... Yeah too bad it's relying on basically only STAB Grass. I guess you could go mid, Quiver Dance might be enough for Upper Mid but just might. I used it on White and it had fun moments but it dragged at times too. Sleep Powder access is really awesome though, I have to admit that.
dude if eviolite tynamo can beat skyla by itself, joltik sure as hell can.
Lolwhat.
Ok, let me start first. This base 55 attack actually lowers the opponent's speed, meaning that if you are 2HKO'ing Swoobat, you win. ._. Electroweb+ Electro Ball is a great combination in-game too. And don't you have to go to Celestial Tower before Skyla? Yeah, Elgyem exists, for a reason you know. And not to mention, Charge Beam. This is why Joltik is actually one of the best mons, it's Special Attack at +1 is actually quite high, and a 63% chance to raise it is also one of the best things you get in this game. OH WAIT. Did I forget? Compoundeyes fixes Charge Beam's accuracy, so now you have a 100% accurate move with the ability to raise your SpA 70% of the time! Joltik is not terrible. In fact, TBH, it's YOUR arguments that are so laughable that I actually enjoy them.
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P.S. Swoobat's 57 Attack does not help its case: I doubt it can 2KO a LV 30 Joltik. In the meantime, Joltik can just whack it's 55 SpD with an Electroweb, then finish it off with Charge Beam or Electro Ball. Worried of being owned? Volt Switch to someone else, obviously.
That's funny, because I'm looking at the trainer lists for Route 4 and the Desert Resort right now and am seeing exceedingly few things that Petilil absolutely cannot beat with Magical Leaf and a Growth or two.
Before that point, you have Castelia, which has plenty of trainers that Petilil does fine against. Inside the gym, there are a couple Dwebble that Petilil is more than capable of beating. And since Burgh's idea of what constitutes a Bug-type move is friggin' Struggle Bug, you can at least use Sleep Powder on Leavanny before switching it out.
This begs the question of why you aren't just using Repels instead of running.
Elesa's Emolgas have Aerial Ace, not Acrobatics. Also, by the time you meet Elesa you should at least be level 26 and evolved (indeed, it's possible you'll already have Quiver Dance), so you'll outspeed those rodents handily. Sleep Powder and a single Growth was enough to sweep for me (the rats took a 2HKO, but Giga Drain healed most of their damage). Aerial Ace shouldn't be too worrisome, since it's not a OHKO even with the weakness. Even though it's resisted, Elesa still loves spamming Volt Switch for some reason, which is nothing to fear. Flame Charge sucks, but +1 Giga Drain makes short work of Zebstrika.
Magical Leaf is way, way better than Synthesis. It's not "sacrificing one of your better moves", it's sacrificing a move that sucks (especially when Fresh Water >>>> Synthesis).
Not really. You can easily have both coming out of Nimbasa, which is only a couple towns past where you pick it up. Since it has decent offenses before that point, it's not like it's a dead slot until then, either.
Two Quiver Dances with Liligant's amazing SpA and Speed is enough to sweep pretty much anything without ever taking a hit (assuming Sleep Powder hits). Admittedly the Flying Gym isn't great for her, but even then you need to keep in mind that most of the Gym is slower than her and has pathetically low SpD (not to mention the Duckletts running around, who are not fond of taking a Giga Drain to the face).
I haven't gotten this far in my current Black run (where I'm using Liligant), but I seem to remember a huge portion of the Gym loving to spam Dragon Dance. This gives you a ton of extra time to set up, which goes a long way towards making up for the resists.
It's more than "some". Most Pokemon simply can't handle 75 Power STABs coming off of a 31 IV'd, positive natured, 110 Base SpA at +1 or +2.
This assumes that Brycen will ever get a hit in. I'll admit that this isn't an ideal place for Liligant, either, but I can't imagine it's an impossible situation.
And that story is? It has neutral coverage on both and is weak to neither, so it should do fine. That might have been your point, though.
While he didn't trivialize the League (keep in mind this was the run where I was around 47 going in), he doesn't have very many bad matchups, either. Of the Elite 4, the only one I would completely not suggest him for is Marshal (what with all the Stone Edges), but the others are fine. N noticeably uses two Pokemon weak to Electricity and another that's weak to Bug. Ghetsis isn't a great matchup, but that's the fight where you really, really want to find some way to set up and sweep anyways (Scrafty and Excadrill being perfect examples of that).
Honestly, I'd consider it right on the line between High and Upper Mid. The fact that it's somewhat mediocre coming out of the gates does it no favors, but it's a wonderful member of the team after that. I'd lean towards High, though.
Incidentally, I'd argue about the same thing for Petilil. She's not amazing coming out of the gate, but she never felt like too much of a burden, especially with Sleep Powder. Once she evolves, she gets the best setup move in game, which really plays nicely with her huge SpA, high Speed, and decent STAB (or amazing STAB right about the time you hit the Elite 4). The Gyms don't let her shine very much, but every other random trainer just folds to her, and the League is actually fairly generous about giving her time to set up. Definitely at least Upper Mid material, High if we aren't being too incredibly exclusive.
The thing is: who wants to set up?
If a 'mon NEEDS setting up to beat stuff, then surely it isn't top tier. That's why stuff like Archen and Darumaka are so high up: they OHKO stuff straight away and have good in-game types.
I love grass types, but they aren't the best, and a grass type that MUST set up to be good is not a high tier (Upper Mid at BEST). It is the best Grass type in-game however, but with such a shallow movepool you may as well stick Grass Knot on something if you desperately want a Grass move (My fucking SIMISEAR was my "Grass" guy).
If a 'mon NEEDS setting up to beat stuff, then surely it isn't top tier. That's why stuff like Archen and Darumaka are so high up: they OHKO stuff straight away and have good in-game types.
I love grass types, but they aren't the best, and a grass type that MUST set up to be good is not a high tier (Upper Mid at BEST). It is the best Grass type in-game however, but with such a shallow movepool you may as well stick Grass Knot on something if you desperately want a Grass move (My fucking SIMISEAR was my "Grass" guy).
You people aren't getting it are you?
PETILIL NEEDS LITTLE TO NO SETUP! If it needs to set up, it is ridiculously easy. Magical Leaf is a pretty strong attack at that point, and Sleep Powder helps with support, and the trainers at Route 4/Resort Desert cater to Petilil's needs as well! Upper Mid or High, definitely.
Joltik is just fine against Skyla. Nothing more than OK. Zebstrika does it better, Excadrill does it better, etc. Charge Beam is weak. Joltik has weak Special Attack. This thing needs set up. Upper Mid or Mid.
PETILIL NEEDS LITTLE TO NO SETUP! If it needs to set up, it is ridiculously easy. Magical Leaf is a pretty strong attack at that point, and Sleep Powder helps with support, and the trainers at Route 4/Resort Desert cater to Petilil's needs as well! Upper Mid or High, definitely.
Joltik is just fine against Skyla. Nothing more than OK. Zebstrika does it better, Excadrill does it better, etc. Charge Beam is weak. Joltik has weak Special Attack. This thing needs set up. Upper Mid or Mid.
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