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np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I couldn't agree with you more Mishra. There are so many ways to beat Chansey it's not even funny. Most physical attacker can deal substantial damage to it with STAB moves or SE moves (let's face it, a good number of physical attackers carry fighting moves). In fact, it is set up bait for a ton of threats that take advantage of Chansey's weak power, like Ursaring, Snorlax, Kingdra, and NPdoom (yes, at +6 Fire Blast does a shitload of damage). So physical attackers beat it and set up sweepers beat it. Most offensive and balanced teams have at least one of those. Furthermore, stall beats chansey extremely well. Toxic shuts it down, and all that's needed is a few protects or a ghost type (for seismic toss immunity) to wear it down completely. Leech Seed completely stops it, as each turn you recover about 40 HP, on top of leftovers healing (40 HP is for 4 HP variants. 252 HP variants heal 44 HP per turn). Any kind of item changing such as knock off or trick makes it totally useless. And Taunt + Recovery is absolutely awful for it.
If you are having Chansey troubles, why not try a Crobat. Strong, physical Brave Bird STAB, Super Fang, immunity to Toxic, and Taunt.
Or just any fighting type.
Or any physical attacker. Literally. Shit even Ambipom can cleanly 2HKO with Return or Low Sweep. Snorlax sets up all over Chansey's face, and really takes little damage from Seismic Toss due to its high HP.
A lot of people don't like Chansey, because it forces out their special attackers, but that's just how things are. Chansey may be annoying but is by no means ban worthy.
If you are having Chansey troubles, why not try a Crobat. Strong, physical Brave Bird STAB, Super Fang, immunity to Toxic, and Taunt.
Or just any fighting type.
Or any physical attacker. Literally. Shit even Ambipom can cleanly 2HKO with Return or Low Sweep. Snorlax sets up all over Chansey's face, and really takes little damage from Seismic Toss due to its high HP.
A lot of people don't like Chansey, because it forces out their special attackers, but that's just how things are. Chansey may be annoying but is by no means ban worthy.
the sheer bulk of both kyurem and victini make them both harder to deal with, i'm actually surprised that the only arguments brough up are about sheer power, they also have versatility, victini has the far more dangerous TR Victini that can change moves, has way more bulk, and can actually swich moves and support version (not broken but usable), Kyurem has the CS set that kills chansey and has no reliable swich ins thanks to dragon tail, and the bulky specs version which 2HKO everything bar lucky chanseys
PS: 100 and 95 speed are nothing bad, and not many stuff that outspeed can actually treathen one or the other (cobalion/durant or celebi/shaymin)
PSS: really, that kind of posts don't help at all the disscusion
PS: 100 and 95 speed are nothing bad, and not many stuff that outspeed can actually treathen one or the other (cobalion/durant or celebi/shaymin)
PSS: really, that kind of posts don't help at all the disscusion
I actually think the game is pretty balanced right off the bat. Victini is the only thing that stands out to me, only because of the fact that it can check Kyurem. Although its V-Create is also really powerful, it can't afford to keep switching in and out. Any offensive team should be able to use V-Create against them and set up momentum of your own with a pokemon that isn't so self-destructive.
As someone dumb enough to use Growth sun Shaymin, I can safely say that Chansey does absolutely nothing to it.
For whatever reason, Kyurem has been bothering me relatively little. It reminds me of Latios in the OU tier. I hate Latios and I'd be perfectly fine with him gone, but I can't call him broken because he can be played around and has serveral switch ins and revengers. Kyurem is the same way, only not as frightening even down in this tier.
Because of what everyone was saying about Chansey, I ran SubGrowth tangrowth to beat it. Then I found out that that wasn't necessary at all. Chansey does not require specialized counters, you just need to build your team to prepare for it. (That and SubGrowth Tangrowth was FUCKED when I ran into a Calm Mind Chansey).
My only complaint about UU so far is Victini. If Victini was easy to get rid of after using V-create or switching into one of its attacks, then I'd be fine. However, it isn't.
For whatever reason, Kyurem has been bothering me relatively little. It reminds me of Latios in the OU tier. I hate Latios and I'd be perfectly fine with him gone, but I can't call him broken because he can be played around and has serveral switch ins and revengers. Kyurem is the same way, only not as frightening even down in this tier.
Because of what everyone was saying about Chansey, I ran SubGrowth tangrowth to beat it. Then I found out that that wasn't necessary at all. Chansey does not require specialized counters, you just need to build your team to prepare for it. (That and SubGrowth Tangrowth was FUCKED when I ran into a Calm Mind Chansey).
My only complaint about UU so far is Victini. If Victini was easy to get rid of after using V-create or switching into one of its attacks, then I'd be fine. However, it isn't.
Do... do you know what balanced means?
If you're running a sun team you pretty much can't lose unless you're a moron, or your opponent runs something specifically to take out your permasun, like Dugtrio + a rain dance user / abomasnow.
And Victini is hardly even the biggest offender (although it IS really good). I'm more afraid of getting clean swept by two back to back chlorophyll sweepers than I am of getting beaten by Victini... at least it has no way to boost its speed / power outside of choice items.
Once we have some clear skies, this tier may be playable (and it looks like it could actually be fun), but until then, it's utter garbage.
Is it possible to have a combo suspect? Testing for a combo ban (Drizzle+Swift Swim style) might be a worthy consideration, since it seems like a lot of people are okay with sun or Victini but not both at the same time. Outside of sun, your palette of things to wall V-Generate increases drastically. At the same time, sun has to rely on much less durable nukes, such as Charizard and Arcanine, who are much easier to deal with and take damage as they attack.
If a combo ban were instituted, it would be easier to test whether Victini or sun are broken on their own, and thus make sure we ban the right things.
If a combo ban were instituted, it would be easier to test whether Victini or sun are broken on their own, and thus make sure we ban the right things.
Or we could just ban Drought and be done with it, rather than have some convoluted series of bans that makes sun "ok" but doesn't actually make it ok...
Doesn't Chansey get OHKO'd by most STAB Close Combats? I mean, if you're going to run a no-weather offensive team, I don't think it's too much to ask for to carry a fighting type. Or if you're running a stallish team, you could find a way to stall it / force it out, or you could run a sun team with a physical fire type.
Why do we need another combo ban to determine what the 'real culprit' is? Victini is used with or without Sun teams and Sun teams are broken even if they don't use Victini. Both are perfectly viable suspects in their own right and should be evaluated separately.
1st Round: Ban Victini + Drought
But Charizard is broken!
2nd Round: Ban Victini + Charizard + Drought
But Chlorophyll is broken!
3rd Round: Ban Victini + Charizard + Chlorophyll + Drought
Fire Pokemon dominate the metagame!
Ban Drought
As opposed to:
1st Round: Sun teams are dominating the metagame!
Ban Drought
In reality, a combo ban says we're just looking for a way to waste more time trying to nerf Drought instead of blaming it for the mess it created and getting rid of it from the start.
Speaking of which, here are a few examples to highlight just how bad an idea a combo ban would be at this point in time:
1st Round: Ban Victini + Drought
But Charizard is broken!
2nd Round: Ban Victini + Charizard + Drought
But Chlorophyll is broken!
3rd Round: Ban Victini + Charizard + Chlorophyll + Drought
Fire Pokemon dominate the metagame!
Ban Drought
As opposed to:
1st Round: Sun teams are dominating the metagame!
Ban Drought
In reality, a combo ban says we're just looking for a way to waste more time trying to nerf Drought instead of blaming it for the mess it created and getting rid of it from the start.
???
Wait. So we ban Vicitini, thus proving it broken. We ban Drought after the majority finds it broken, and then we bring back down Vicitini just to see how it does without the Sun even thought it was already banned? Doesn't that sound counter-productive to you?
Sun-less V-create is 270 BP, that to me seems a lot more easy to handle that a 405 BP attack, probably victiny will be broken whitout sun too, but now he only has the "2HKOs the entire meta" over him thanks to it, and in my initial nominees i wanted sun banned and victini tested in a sun-less enviroment
I'm with LN on this; everyone seems to be pinning the brokenness of Sun on Victini. While Victini is definitely extremely dangerous, I think other sun sweepers (particularly the chlorophyll Sweepers) pose the larger issue. They have to me anyways, such examples include SD Sawsbuck or Growth Victreebell. I definitely support banning the ability for sure.
If Victini leaves the tier, you guys could always go the OU route and ban drought + chlorophyll. I mention this because people argued that rain would either suck badly or still be obscenely broken even with no swift swimmers. Now, rain is a perfectly viable playstyle. If sun proves broken, a complex ban could be done to keep the playstyle.
I could argue about how the idea of fire types alone dominating games would work, but...
I could argue about how the idea of fire types alone dominating games would work, but...
I'm running a Victini-less Sun team just to prove this point.
I'd probobly have made the voting req already if I was bothered to actually ladder right now, but smashing apart everything with a Victreebel gets old after the 20th time.
I had something like a 7 win streak, right after my current team was made, and then lost to another Sun team, which I misplayed against.
Sun is certainly broken without Victini. Even without Victini, my team is dominateing everything with Scarfed Typholsion and Victreebel. All I need to so is settle on a Victini check, either Houndoom or Arcanine... and, while I'm at it, settle on a set for them too. [Offensive Arcanine gets 2HKO'ed by Zen Headbutt, so I might go for Houndoom]
Raikou and Togekiss? Care to elaborate as to why you believe they're "broken" in UU?
Well,I've encountered versions of Togekiss' that survived my Mew's +4 Psyshock for some reason and with Choice Scarf it outspeeds many and flinch them to death. Serene Grace is enough.
Raikou I have no good reason really. But there must be something.
There's was someone else I was going to mention but I totally forgot who.
So in other words, you have no valid basis whatsoever for demanding that six Pokemon no one else has the slightest problem with should be banned.
It sounds like you're just whining because your team wasn't designed well enough to counter a few threats, and now you want them banned because you can't be bothered to adapt. It's times like this when I wonder if we should have a BL tier at all.
Really? I can beat them, I never said I couldn't, but why do I have to give reasons when others don't?
But why can't you see those Pokémon banned? It's like saying: "Hey, don't ban those Pokémon, I need them for my team". Hmm? A reason for a reason, otherwise there's no point in saying something at all, right?
I can't because you can't.
And if people don't give reasons for something to be banned, it is becaue either a) they're doing it wrong or b) they were talking about stuff that's been discussed to death (Victini and co).
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