np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Matthew]

I really agree with Haunter and Supereme Dirt. I ladder a lot (a lot a lot -- more than 99% of people). I've made it to 1450+ with one of each weather (sun, rain, and sand), only to get knocked down due to a string of lucky games. I'd like to think that gives me a unique stance on the suspect voting for this round. In all my ladder games, in all of my teams, nothing really stood out as "too strong." Sub Chomp wasn't able to get that critical miss most of the time, Volcarona was weak to SR, and if Starmie wasn't able to get rid of it, well uh-oh!! and Tornadus is nothing without his weather up (well same really for any Hurricane abuser).

There really is a balance in the metagame, PK Gaming describes it as "Rock, Paper, Scissors where rain is Rock on crack." I'd like to think of it more like Starcraft BW. Terran > Zerg > Protoss > Terran. Where it usually goes Sun > Rain > Sand > Sun. That isn't to say that a Sun team can't beat a Sand team, much like how a Terran doesn't always lose to Protoss (siege expand~!).

 

[shrang]

Sun > Rain > Sand > Sun

Pretty much my view on the current metagame as well, although I do believe Sand is probably overall, the easiest weather to run since it is the easiest to keep up. Firstly, you have TWO excellent weather inducers (Running both is risky, but can be done), while both of them just DON'T DIE. Tyranitar can sit around and soak special hits all day, while Hippowdon can do even better for physical ones. Comparatively, Politoed and Ninetales are much frailer and much weaker. They serve no other purpose in the team but to be the weather inducer, while TTar and Hippowdon can easily do other stuff (TTar can molest various frail special attackers with Pursuit while Hippowdon is just your bog standard physical wall).

 

[Shiny Crobat]

You should realise that statistics do not reflect that hypothesis at all, Gen Empoleon. In fact, it seems that sand has a major advantage compared to other weather teams.

Also, your rock, paper, scissors metagame is not by definition balanced at all. Actually, due to the fact that only one team can be played at the game - a problem that can be solved by making matches BO3 with counterpicks - , one could argue that the metagame is not balanced at all. Another problem in your analysis is the lack of specification regarding the metagame. Can we only consider laddering a reflection of the metagame, or are tournaments, considering tournaments motivate players to perform, the current metagame?

While I am not saying I'm not satisfied with the current metagame, it is clear that balance is not self-evident.

For everyone interested in balance: why is balance our goal? And what constitutes balance?

 

[truevillany]

Man I am finding calm 252/252 politoed extremely durable, able to switch into even physical attacks and survive well, not to mention some special SE attacks. Is no one else experiencing his bulkieness like me?


Idk man I am really liking rain this time around; rain boosted specs hydro pumps from starmie are 2hkoing damn near anything not named ferrothorn, and nearly none of the other weather starters can switch in to absorb the attack...

 

[Vladimir]

Deoxys-S had such low usage in April, it makes me wonder how its nomination was even allowed (since nobody had enough experience facing it). Its defenses are so crappy, every choiced/ life orbed pokemon can at the very least 2hko it, even through screens. Being the best dual screener is merely a niche, since providing non- game breaking support isn't enough to warrant a ban, and the cleaner set has lost reliability with the weather speed tiers exceeding 504. It's just a good pokemon, not even a great one lol. What made the voters believe it was that threatening?

 

[Focus]

Deoxys-S is a really cool pokemon. It is simply a fantastic and unpredictable supporter/attacker. I get frustrated with it sometimes, but I like the out-prediction game that it brings with it. It is not worthy to get banned, imo.

Latios has been little more than a dissapointment for me. Latios is pretty decent, don't get me wrong, but it is not Ubers-worthy by a long shot. Latias has pretty consistently been better for my teams because it can set up Calm Minds while not getting 2HKOed by a lot of common physical attacks. Maybe it's just me, though.

 

[IcyMan28]

Thank you Haunter for bringing back actual discussion into the thread.

Latios: My stance on this is unchanged. Top tier, great stats, but manageable and easily contained by the current metagame.

Deoxys-S: The support set has always been its most controversial, and I find that manageable as well. It may lay hazards fastest out of all users in the game, but it also does so least reliably because it is just frail. I find that Ferrothorn or even Skarmory manage to lay down those 2-3 layers of Spikes much more easily than Deoxys-S, and they can do it over the course of the match while still checking things. It is this multidimensionality that makes them superior to Deo-S in my eyes, and its why I don't really care for it either way when I see one.

 

[Roosh]

Gen. Empoleon, unlike Starcraft, there are thousands of combinations for teams. Remind me again why, if we want to compete and do well, we have to run Sun/Rain/Sand?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Ehhh Blaziken

Comparing an ability to an attack is a stupid idea in this case - a Salamence with Draco Meteor looks exactly the same as it would without it. If you made the example being "Salamence with Intimidate is broken, but it's not broken with Moxie" then it'd be suitable (although wrong, even if it's just an example). You can immediately tell if a Salamence has Moxie or not; but you can't tell if it has DM or not - therefore, attacks shouldn't be used in arguments against abilities.

You have to wait a turn to know Blaziken's ability.

Also, as I've said before, DM is not a "part of Salamence" as it can easily forget the move without the Mence itself being illegally altered. Speed Boost is indeed a part of Blaziken, but it is not a part of the non-broken Blaze Blaziken, as it can't have both abilities at once.

Pursuit is a part of Tyranitar that can't be changed to Dragon Dance, just like Speed Boost is a part of Blaziken that can't be changed to Blaze.

What made Kyogre Uber was its 100 HP, 150 SpA, 140 SpD, and Water Spout. In the end, Drizzle was just a bonus.

Considering Drizzle's impact on B/W OU, I'd say Drizzle is the main reason Kyogre is Uber since ADV and the stats are more of a bonus... I mean, Kyogre was the #1 pokémon in Ubers in DPPt and is now at #2 (adding up all Arceus formes) in BW. If you gave it Pressure, it would probably be worse than ADV Ho-oh.

The others were not banned; people just started using them because of their abilities, pushing them over the usage threshold. If Magneton was broken in UU because of its ability, then it would be BL in D/P.

I specifically mentioned ADV. Magneton was a piece of shit EXCEPT for its ability to kill Skarmory. Being used enough to surpass the usage threshold is banning a pokémon out of UU; it's just by a different criterion. If Speed Boost and Blaze Blaziken should be considered different entities, then the same could be done with Sturdy/MP Magneton in ADV (or Zone in OU/DP), where we should allow them in a tier where they're now banned because of the only thing that holds them in the tier/banlist (OU/BL) above.

Gen. Empoleon, unlike Starcraft, there are thousands of combinations for teams. Remind me again why, if we want to compete and do well, we have to run Sun/Rain/Sand?

You talk as if "Rain" were a pokémon for which you needed all six team slots.

 

[PK Gaming]

I really agree with Haunter and Supereme Dirt. I ladder a lot (a lot a lot -- more than 99% of people). I've made it to 1450+ with one of each weather (sun, rain, and sand), only to get knocked down due to a string of lucky games. I'd like to think that gives me a unique stance on the suspect voting for this round. In all my ladder games, in all of my teams, nothing really stood out as "too strong." Sub Chomp wasn't able to get that critical miss most of the time, Volcarona was weak to SR, and if Starmie wasn't able to get rid of it, well uh-oh!! and Tornadus is nothing without his weather up (well same really for any Hurricane abuser).

There really is a balance in the metagame, PK Gaming describes it as "Rock, Paper, Scissors where rain is Rock on crack." I'd like to think of it more like Starcraft BW. Terran > Zerg > Protoss > Terran. Where it usually goes Sun > Rain > Sand > Sun. That isn't to say that a Sun team can't beat a Sand team, much like how a Terran doesn't always lose to Protoss (siege expand~!).

I don't think a good rain team should be losing to sun. I know it sounds pretentious, but Rain just has a ton of more tools to deal with sun. Ninetales is SR and has no offensive presence whatsover. Its not a stretch to say that it really can't do anything. Meanwhile, Politoed is capable of hitting extremely hard with Specs Hydro Pump (Ninetales doesn't like switching in, even with drought in play)

The biggest deciding factor is Tornadus, who can outright 6-0 sun teams on his own. Because he can use his priority Rain Dance when Ninetales switches in, costing sun at least 1 pokemon.

The set in question is Hurricane / Hammer Arm / U-turn / Rain Dance. That set tools over like every other weather team and its partly the reason why I think rain is broken.

 

[SlimMan]

man you just told us some things that you have told us that you didn't want to tell.so if you want to say somethng say it straight.don't say ''i am not going to say this'' and then put it in ( ).

Wait, what? I honestly am unable to understand this sentence.

this was your first post in this discussion.if you mean that in an other discussion about blaziken you had presented your arguements then sory but you must present again these arguements instead of quoting other peoples sayings...

I was referring to my other 2 posts in this thread.
Which were both posted before you responded to me in the first place.

i told you again that rules are there to change eventually!see aldaron's proposal!

That's fine, but what bans are acceptable and what bans are not is a matter of policy, and therefore it is for Policy Review to decide, not the people in this thread.

i already responded to this...

I posted it once. You quoted it twice.

What?

it isn't like this.it was your attitude that is wrong for discussions.and of 'course when i see someone acting all high and mighty instead of presenting arguements then i am going to interefere!

Great. Let me know when someone actually does that.

i don't care what you did later.i care for what you did in the beginning.you came in the discussion by humiliating their point of discussion and then you said that your only arguement will be the refference that you made.and then in your next post when someone said to you that you did well you said that you were happy and that your purpose has been served!so don't try to convince me that you came for a discussion...

Humiliated? Seriously?
I came in and stated that their current plan was not allowed. Where do you see me trying to "humiliate" them?

Secondly, we've already mentioned that it isn't my only argument. We've already been through the fact that my other arguments had already been said by other people in this thread, which is why I didn't bother posting them.

Also, yes my purpose was to show that Blaziken can't be brought. But when Virizion started discussing, I engaged in that discussion.

It doesn't matter what I came here for, because I did discuss. I don't need to "convince" you of anything.

-----------------------------------------------------------
As for Suspects, I think that Latios is pretty easy to handle, though it could be due to the fact my team does well against him.

Deoxys-E on the other hand, I hate. He screams "SCREENS" when you see him in Team Preview, but he makes it so easy for someone like Terrakion or Salamence to come in and set up. He enables sweeps.

That said, I don't think he's ban-worthy. So my team has trouble with him. He's not overpowering, nor can he take too much abuse. He's a great supporter, but good preparation can stop him dead in his tracks, especially given how predictable he always is.

Currently, I am leaning towards no suspects in this metagame.

 

[Nkululeko]

Can we, please, get over the Blaziken argument? Blaziken is not part of the current testing stage so I'd like to read people's thoughts about Pokemon like Latios and Deoxys-S, which were voted Uber after round 3, rather than the usual bitching about Blaziken and Drizzle + SS.

To me, it seems that the current metagame is quite balanced and that there's nothing to remove.

Also, although this should be unnecessary, I exhort everybody to make their points in a civil manner. Flame wars are not going to be tolerated. Thanks.

Srry for the double post and let's go. I too, think the current meta is pretty balanced. Weather is a big chunk of it but hey it happens. That's why I have always supported a postponement on suspect testing. If people aren't feeling pressed to make a case about current suspects, then maybe they're not broken and we should go back to playing the meta for competition and fun instead of searching for bans.

 

[SlimMan]

I have to agree that a set-back of the suspect tests would be nice. I feel like people are rapidly trying to figure out what they want to ban, because they feel like they're on a clock. But, hopefully, putting it off a while would let people shake the timed feeling and decide what really needs to go.

But I wouldn't really be willing to argue for suspending the tests, as it would come with flaws as well, and couldn't be done until the end of this round anyway, somewhat un-doing the purpose of a suspension in the first place.

 

[Thorhammer]

Pokémon + Ability bans are expressly DISALLOWED. As are more complex bans. The line was already drawn. Drizzle + Swift Swim is the ONLY COMPLEX BAN. EVER.

Please direct me to where any of these decisions were made and voted on.

 

[Lamppost]

I have to agree that a set-back of the suspect tests would be nice. I feel like people are rapidly trying to figure out what they want to ban, because they feel like they're on a clock. But, hopefully, putting it off a while would let people shake the timed feeling and decide what really needs to go.

But I wouldn't really be willing to argue for suspending the tests, as it would come with flaws as well, and couldn't be done until the end of this round anyway, somewhat un-doing the purpose of a suspension in the first place.

How i interpret the suspect tests is getting the most fun metagame possible, quickly. I doubt the tests will stop until everyone is satisfied with the current metagame. That's why there is a lot of rounds in the beggining and then one every 6 months (i think?).

Anyways i will just give my two cents on the metagame. I've laddering a LOT this round and i've gotten a few accounts to 1400ish and one to 1470. I don't neccesarily think that any weather is broken, it all comes down to how you build your team. The problem is that it's very hard to counter a weather while not leaving yourself open to another weather. This is why i think rain/sun(not as much as rain) comes across as "broken". Considering the abusers of sand are in the top 5, it is more likely for a person to take more priority to counter things like excadrill and garchomp, than rain or sun abusers like venasaur or thundurus. This again, leaves the impression that the weather that you haven't specifically tried to beat is "broken" or "overpowered". Anyways, that's just what i've observed from my extensive laddering experiences and i just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[Blackdragonking]

Oh, good, we're actually talking about suspects instead of the persistent pet issue that's unlikely to ever get a majority for any of its solutions. Progress.

If people want Latios and Deoxys-S to stay, I guess they'll get a reversal at the voting, and remain on the radar for another round or two.

I personally would be happy to see them gone because I hate both of them and would be curious how the metagame would shift without Latios around. If they stay, I guess there's stuff that can handle them, but they're still irritating.

 

[SlimMan]

Please direct me to where any of these decisions were made and voted on.

Philip7086 directly said no Pokemon + ability bans in every single nomination thread.

Aldaron directly said that his would only be a temporary measure, and that it would be the sole exception as a complex ban.

I can link you those threads, if you don't want to dig them up yourself.

How i interpret the suspect tests is getting the most fun metagame possible, quickly. I doubt the tests will stop until everyone is satisfied with the current metagame. That's why there is a lot of rounds in the beggining and then one every 6 months (i think?).

Anyways i will just give my two cents on the metagame. I've laddering a LOT this round and i've gotten a few accounts to 1400ish and one to 1470. I don't neccesarily think that any weather is broken, it all comes down to how you build your team. The problem is that it's very hard to counter a weather while not leaving yourself open to another weather. This is why i think rain/sun(not as much as rain) comes across as "broken". Considering the abusers of sand are in the top 5, it is more likely for a person to take more priority to counter things like excadrill and garchomp, than rain or sun abusers like venasaur or thundurus. This again, leaves the impression that the weather that you haven't specifically tried to beat is "broken" or "overpowered". Anyways, that's just what i've observed from my extensive laddering experiences and i just wanted to throw that out there.

About your first paragraph, I agree that that's what it should be like. But unfortunately, I doubt that many people take it in that light.

As for your second paragraph, I have to agree with your weather assessment. It seems like dealing with all weathers takes up an entire team, which is why people say that the only non-weather is anti-weather. However, there are different ways that each weather can be dealt with, making for different combinations of non-weather teams. Overall, weather is tough to deal with (without running it yourself) but it is certainly manageable as long as proper foresight and care are put into the team and playing.

 

[Matthew]

Pretty much my view on the current metagame as well, although I do believe Sand is probably overall, the easiest weather to run since it is the easiest to keep up. Firstly, you have TWO excellent weather inducers (Running both is risky, but can be done), while both of them just DON'T DIE. Tyranitar can sit around and soak special hits all day, while Hippowdon can do even better for physical ones. Comparatively, Politoed and Ninetales are much frailer and much weaker. They serve no other purpose in the team but to be the weather inducer, while TTar and Hippowdon can easily do other stuff (TTar can molest various frail special attackers with Pursuit while Hippowdon is just your bog standard physical wall).

I agree that out of all the weather starters, sand has probably the best ones there are. Tyranitar and hippo are just amazing pokemon, but if you run both then usually you're leaving something out of your team, weather (pun!) it be that one sweepers (exca / chomp) or a useful glue that is usually needed (ferrothorn!). I don't agree with the Ninetales and Politoed comment at all, however. Politoed (scarf and specs) is a really useful pokemon due to its sheer power and/or revenging capabilities. Ninetales is actually very bulky, can run WoW and Hypnosis, Roar, among actually crippling the other weather inducers with Wow. Coming in costs them 12% + spikes + SR damage. Sure it'll take a bit, but they will get worn down while not being entirely useful due to the burn (except politoed). I would say that Ninetales is the worst weather starter, but that doesn't mean sun teams are worse in anyway.

Gen. Empoleon, unlike Starcraft, there are thousands of combinations for teams. Remind me again why, if we want to compete and do well, we have to run Sun/Rain/Sand?

Not true at all, there's specific build orders you need to be effective against specific races. Siege Expand vs. Protoss for example, or MM against Zerg. Of course certain build orders counter other build orders, which is why you usually look at what your opponent does by scouting (or team preview) and see where to go from there. Also you don't have to run weather. Stall teams are still alive and very, very good.

You should realise that statistics do not reflect that hypothesis at all, Gen Empoleon. In fact, it seems that sand has a major advantage compared to other weather teams.

Also, your rock, paper, scissors metagame is not by definition balanced at all. Actually, due to the fact that only one team can be played at the game - a problem that can be solved by making matches BO3 with counterpicks - , one could argue that the metagame is not balanced at all. Another problem in your analysis is the lack of specification regarding the metagame. Can we only consider laddering a reflection of the metagame, or are tournaments, considering tournaments motivate players to perform, the current metagame?

While I am not saying I'm not satisfied with the current metagame, it is clear that balance is not self-evident.

For everyone interested in balance: why is balance our goal? And what constitutes balance?

Most tournaments are 'gimmick' tournaments for an example, but if you want to count tournaments then I would look at Tour, Smogon Tournament, and probably SPL. Look at the winning teams for each match and then say "all the people who won used X or used Y strategy, it seems to be the most effective."

I don't think a good rain team should be losing to sun. I know it sounds pretentious, but Rain just has a ton of more tools to deal with sun. Ninetales is SR and has no offensive presence whatsover. Its not a stretch to say that it really can't do anything. Meanwhile, Politoed is capable of hitting extremely hard with Specs Hydro Pump (Ninetales doesn't like switching in, even with drought in play)

The biggest deciding factor is Tornadus, who can outright 6-0 sun teams on his own. Because he can use his priority Rain Dance when Ninetales switches in, costing sun at least 1 pokemon.

The set in question is Hurricane / Hammer Arm / U-turn / Rain Dance. That set tools over like every other weather team and its partly the reason why I think rain is broken.

I do agree that Tornadus can destroy teams. There's no question about that. But really it's no different than Volcarona in the sun (besides the not setting up part). It just crushes teams who are not prepared. I don't think most people are preparing for it as a threat that much (#53 in usage, c'mon guys). Any team can get swept if they aren't expecting a pokemon, I would assume people would start running things that Tornadus can't beat if it starts increasing in usage, but until then they'll get swept. It's like Thundurus (another excellent rain abuser), people expect it now so even though it's still an extreme threat, it's not quite as bad.

How i interpret the suspect tests is getting the most fun metagame possible, quickly. I doubt the tests will stop until everyone is satisfied with the current metagame. That's why there is a lot of rounds in the beggining and then one every 6 months (i think?).

Anyways i will just give my two cents on the metagame. I've laddering a LOT this round and i've gotten a few accounts to 1400ish and one to 1470. I don't neccesarily think that any weather is broken, it all comes down to how you build your team. The problem is that it's very hard to counter a weather while not leaving yourself open to another weather. This is why i think rain/sun(not as much as rain) comes across as "broken". Considering the abusers of sand are in the top 5, it is more likely for a person to take more priority to counter things like excadrill and garchomp, than rain or sun abusers like venasaur or thundurus. This again, leaves the impression that the weather that you haven't specifically tried to beat is "broken" or "overpowered". Anyways, that's just what i've observed from my extensive laddering experiences and i just wanted to throw that out there.

I'd agree with this, if you're running a weather team you can probably handle one weather really well while another one is kind of iffy. And if you can handle both then stall might become an issue. And if you can handle all the weathers and stall then you have the most perfect team and then people will probably start copying you, and that creates a static (and undesirable) metagame.

 

[Thorhammer]

Philip7086 directly said no Pokemon + ability bans in every single nomination thread.

Aldaron directly said that his would only be a temporary measure, and that it would be the sole exception as a complex ban.

I can link you those threads, if you don't want to dig them up yourself.

I am aware of all of these things. Without a vote backing them, they are irrelevant and have no bearing whatsoever on official policy. This is why I asked not for a link to someone claiming it, but an actual vote on one of the matters.

This is particularly true because Aldaron's exact stance isn't known; he says several things in his proposal that lead to conflicting conclusions. I've attempted to ask him for more details, but on the few times he responded, he gave responses that only applied to specific situations no one is really concerned with, such as Chlorophyll + Drought. I have not been able to get a concrete answer from him as to the exact philosophy behind his proposal; if you know of a time in which he has given more specific explanations, it would help clear up some of this matter, but for the reasons outlined above, it still cannot be said to be official policy.

PR is long overdue for an official vote for how to settle the matter of complex bans. Until they hold such a vote, decide exactly what qualities (if any) make Aldaron's proposal acceptable, decide what to do with complex bans that meet those qualities, and decide what to do with complex bans that do not meet those qualities, then no complex bans can be said to be off the table. An important thing to keep in mind is that the decision cannot be that Drizzle + Swift Swim is the one and only complex ban that can ever be allowed. If it is to remain in use and other complex bans are to be rejected, there must be something that makes it okay and others not okay, and that must be decided so that if other bans meet those same conditions, they too can be accepted. Even if those conditions include extraordinary circumstances, it is those circumstances that must make any exception, not the ban itself. Otherwise, the ban on Drizzle + Swift Swim must be removed.

 

[capefeather]

Thorhammer: The physical Shaymin-S and Mewtwo examples I gave were in response to other people, and not really intended to counter a competitively relevant argument. You believe that your reasoning is enough to warrant a certain ability combo ban; I don't. That's just it, really. I doubt that this will change any time soon.

 

[mf]

I really don't think deo-s is all that much. In gen 4 people ran anti-leads to prevent SR and screens, but if deo-s gets banned then i assume azelf will just take its place again and do almost the exact same job - it doesnt seem to me that people are packing any kind of anti-support mons at all. i can't even recall any common taunters other than some gliscor.

 

[PK Gaming]

I do agree that Tornadus can destroy teams. There's no question about that. But really it's no different than Volcarona in the sun (besides the not setting up part). It just crushes teams who are not prepared. I don't think most people are preparing for it as a threat that much (#53 in usage, c'mon guys). Any team can get swept if they aren't expecting a pokemon, I would assume people would start running things that Tornadus can't beat if it starts increasing in usage, but until then they'll get swept. It's like Thundurus (another excellent rain abuser), people expect it now so even though it's still an extreme threat, it's not quite as bad.

I disagree because even if you see it coming its almost impossible to counter. Outside of Jirachi and maybe Rotom-W (Hurricane can 2HKO standard Rotom-W with SR) its hard to find a concrete counter to it.

Its a lot different than Volcarona
-lacks 4x weakness
-can obliterate Tyranitar
-can bring back the rain

Volcarona has the potential of being better i'll admit that, but only if you pull it off correctly. There are a couple of pokemon who stop it even after setup (Toxic Burungeru, Quagsire, Scarf chomp, etc) Tornadus can mindlessly spam Hurricane and rip open holes in the opponents team.

Its 53 in usage but so what? Mew is UU while Toxicroak & Swampert are OU. Your argument is invalid my bird is a hair

 

[SlimMan]

I am aware of all of these things. Without a vote backing them, they are irrelevant and have no bearing whatsoever on official policy. This is why I asked not for a link to someone claiming it, but an actual vote on one of the matters.

We've seen the Philip, or rather our chief policy head person, has the power to overrule votes ("put his foot down") and that he has the final say. Therefore, a vote on that is irrelevant. What he says goes.

Furthermore, Aldaron created our first complex ban. He can be credited as the creator of complex bans, although the idea has existed before now. In the same way that an author may control his/her work, Aldaron may control his, giving him the say in what it may be used for. Votes are irrelevant here as well.

This is particularly true because Aldaron's exact stance isn't known; he says several things in his proposal that lead to conflicting conclusions. I've attempted to ask him for more details, but on the few times he responded, he gave responses that only applied to specific situations no one is really concerned with, such as Chlorophyll + Drought. I have not been able to get a concrete answer from him as to the exact philosophy behind his proposal; if you know of a time in which he has given more specific explanations, it would help clear up some of this matter, but for the reasons outlined above, it still cannot be said to be official policy.

Aldaron's stance, as far as he's publicly announced, is that Swift Swim/Chlorophyll (and I guess Sand Rush) are very unique abilities and should be treated separately from everything else. Aldaron said that those abilities were anomalies (so to speak), and that they get separate treatment from everything else.

Because that is pretty much all that he announced, we must assume that it is his intention that only such abilities will get special treatment, and that complex bans are not meant to be used for anything else.

PR is long overdue for an official vote for how to settle the matter of complex bans. Until they hold such a vote, decide exactly what qualities (if any) make Aldaron's proposal acceptable, decide what to do with complex bans that meet those qualities, and decide what to do with complex bans that do not meet those qualities, then no complex bans can be said to be off the table. An important thing to keep in mind is that the decision cannot be that Drizzle + Swift Swim is the one and only complex ban that can ever be allowed. If it is to remain in use and other complex bans are to be rejected, there must be something that makes it okay and others not okay, and that must be decided so that if other bans meet those same conditions, they too can be accepted. Even if those conditions include extraordinary circumstances, it is those circumstances that must make any exception, not the ban itself. Otherwise, the ban on Drizzle + Swift Swim must be removed.

To avoid repeating myself, read the above two responses in this post.
Because you're trying to argue in circles with this right here.

 

[khz]

We've seen the Philip, or rather our chief policy head person, has the power to overrule votes ("put his foot down") and that he has the final say. Therefore, a vote on that is irrelevant. What he says goes.

That's rubbish and you know it. He overruled it because the community voted on something and then took extreme liberties with it, by which I mean allowing the alteration of game mechanics in extreme circumstances but then stretching it to critical hits. That's totally different to overruling a vote on whether or not something should be banned, because it's not as if someone can stretch the ban to do something it wasn't intended to do.

 

[yee]

The set in question is Hurricane / Hammer Arm / U-turn / Rain Dance. That set tools over like every other weather team and its partly the reason why I think rain is broken.

If I can contribute anything to this thread at all it would be throwing out counters for that set showing that it isn't broken. CB Metagross with some special beef/Pursuit, Bronzong, and Jirachi all really hard counter that set, and their ability to do things such as counter a ton of special attackers, set up screens, SR, wish support, and even set up weather if they want earns them a spot on many teams. Zapdos and Raikou (kinda) can do well even with SR up but are harder to fit on non-weather teams. It is also very easily revenged by pokemon like Mamoswine and Scizor as well as those who run scarf. With its small defenses, weakness to SR, and inability to OHKO bulky pokemon in general only offensive teams really need to run those specialized checks to kill it. I don't see it as a dominating force but in all honesty I haven't run into it while running a weather besides rain. It seems like careful team building would make it a smaller threat.