np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

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Meru said:
You guys are saying that Victini, Sawsbuck, Victreebel, Arcanine, and Charizard are the problems, not Vulpix?

Get a grip. This isn't Aldaron's Proposal. There is no Swift Swim linking all of these threats together. The only thing they all have in common is Drought, which shouldn't be in UU.

(Frankly, I don't think Snow Warning should be in UU either but that's my opinion)
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Not sure where you got Arcanine from, but anyway.

And I'm not sure why you think this is so ridiculous - ban Vulpix/Drought and a pile of sun users get a soft ban by becoming almost useless in UU, many more than even if all the above were to be banned. There being no common factor doesn't have to mean that by default the incuder should be banned.
 
While I think Sun has definitely become less potent than at the beginning of UU testing, I think it is still the biggest force to be reckoned with, and extremely difficult to counter. The diversity of them is the main problem. There are a couple counters to a few of the sweepers, as pointed out before, but none of them can handle every Pokemon on a sun team. Once your dedicated counter is out of the way, you're going to get swept aside.
 
The main reason Sun is 'less potent' is because sun is such an overpowered force, that every single team is prepared for it, to the extent that other teams can tear them apart due to over specialisation.

Nothing has actually happened to make sun less broken. However, I am of the opinion that we should wait for Victini to go to OU [Inevitable...] before we give Drought the boot, because, let's face it, Victini is a large part of the problem.

Even without Victini, as my team is showing me, Sun is a top-teir threat, and may even still be broken, even then, but I still think we shoudl wait for Victini to go, ot, failing that, ban Victini from UU first, as he is by far the worst offender under the sun.

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Also, while there's been a lot of talk about Mischevious Heart Murkrow [Tried a set myself, wasn't disapointed, but it lacks special bulk], has anyone tried out Moxie Honchkrow? With a Dark Gem, Sucker Punch is an excellent way to get the first KO, and from there, well, Honchkrow was BL in Gen 4 for a reason.

Too bad MoxieKrow misses out on a few vital 4th Gen moves, particually Superpower. However, once Steels are out of the way, MoxieKrow can be pretty deadly.

... Unless you're like me, and always Sucker Punch instead of Persuit, or vice versa. I'm dreadful at predicting with MoxieKrow.

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Also, no, I highly doubt there will be an Alderon-style ban for Drought.

Why?

- The Drizzle OU ban was because Swift Swimers were broken under infinite rain [But not Rain Dance]. Other playstyles, such as non-SS offense, and Rain Stall, were not broken. Before anyone suggests that Sun can stall... I ask them to get a grip on reality.

Or wait for Leaf Guard Meganium. Which I am actually looking foward to. It's like Hydra-Rest... except with Leech Seed and Toxic, allowing it to stall anything except Ferroseed and Ferrothorn. Scary. It's not like it's frail like all the other Leaf Guard mons either. Although it still dies horribly to Fire.

- An Alderon ban here would not solve the issue. Ban Chlorophill + Drought? Victini, Charizard and Typholosion [Scarf Eruption under the Sun 2HKO's Slowbro, dealing about 70%. Just to put it into prespective how bad that is], are all still broken. The latter two may still be viable in UU without Sun, and the former would provobly go to OU anyway. Either way, Vulpix would wind up banned anyway.
 
Benlisted said:
Not sure where you got Arcanine from, but anyway.

And I'm not sure why you think this is so ridiculous - ban Vulpix/Drought and a pile of sun users get a soft ban by becoming almost useless in UU, many more than even if all the above were to be banned. There being no common factor doesn't have to mean that by default the incuder should be banned.
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If banning the inducer means a whole bunch of Pokemon who were broken becomes balanced, then it would probably be worth our time banning the inducer. Who gives a crap that they become "next to useless" (they actually won't)? Who cared when Magikarp was effectively soft-banned because he couldn't be used next to Politoed (I personally find it quite funny, actually)?

On the topic of sun, has anyone else used Combusken? It's actually quite been quite fun using it. All I've been running is a Swords Dance / Flare Blitz / Sky Uppercut / Protect set (Too bad Combuksken can't learn Hi Jump Kick OR Superpower, while Low Kick can't be used with Speed Boost). It can't really find time to SD up normally, but if you switch into Chansey or Registeel or something like that, you can predict the switch and SD up. Also, if you can eliminate priority users and entry hazards, you can also try a Swords Dance / Reversal / Shadow Claw / Protect set with Focus Sash (Why does Combusken NOT learn any physical attacks that doesn't kill itself)? So yeah, not the best Pokemon out there, but it certainly is hella fun to use.
 
I run Sub/Roost/BB/Sucker Punch MoxieKrow with Lefties. If I get a sub up and have +1, it can potentially sweep the remainder of the opposing team, and once I get to say, +2, it's basically over. That shit is insane and extremely underrated.
 
I do agree to an extent with you Shrang, if there comes a point where it is not worth it so keep the weather then the ability should indeed be banned. However I don't believe that many of Sun's abusers would be broken, so I was more theorymonning than making a specific point, so fair play.

I don't really want to get into the whole argument I had about Rain in OU, but essentially sun in UU as a playstyle I believe deserves as much value as we would attribute to any playstyle, and should at least have some attempt made to preserve it even at the cost of a few more bans than just an outright Drought one.
 
Now I am a new user, to both the boards (sort of, hung around for ages) and PO simulator/competitive battling (less than 24 hours playing), so please do take everything I have to say with a pinch of salt (and God knows I will never hit 1,400, knocking around the 1,000 mark consistently).

But I am less than bothered by Victini. Having read through lots of opinions on here before diving in I was expecting Victini to be a monster, but I have been underwhelmed.

It might help that I am playing a hail team as my first ever effort, so aiming to wipe out vulpix whilst using an abomasnow switch helps keep the sun problem down, but in the main I haven't seen anything to bothersome about Victini.

Flash Fire Arcanine takes care of it's V-Create whilst a Jolly Max Speed Mamoswine often outspeeds it for a OHKO Earthquake (I assume that speed EVs and Nature are not a Victini thing?), though that can backfire for a OHKO on me if they have speed.

Add in stealth rock weakness (plus ideally spikes) and most quick Pokes will be able to take it down after one or two switch ins.

I know this is not the most scientific of comments, but as a newbie I am finding plenty of problems, just that Victini hasn't really been up there.
 
Too bad MoxieKrow misses out on a few vital 4th Gen moves, particually Superpower. However, once Steels are out of the way, MoxieKrow can be pretty deadly.
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Someone forgot that honchkrow has a 105 base Spatk and hidden power Fire is always an option (even though heat wave was better) seeing as most steels have higher Defense as opposed to special defense.

Posted by Redwar
Flash Fire Arcanine takes care of it's V-Create whilst a Jolly Max Speed Mamoswine often outspeeds it for a OHKO Earthquake (I assume that speed EVs and Nature are not a Victini thing?), though that can backfire for a OHKO on me if they have speed.
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First: Arcanine handles V-create, but what else can it take from a Victini without being broken in half? A good player doesn't spam V-create either so you most likely won't be able to send your arcanine in at the right time 100% of the time.

Second: Victini outspeeds mamoswine unless you are playing idiots who don't max out Victini's speed on a CB set with is all about SPEED AND POWER.

I have know idea who you have been playing but you seem to be lacking play against people who use Victini properly.
 
I'm using TR Team, with TR victini which is a wonderfull bastard, but it's not broken, he can make holes the size of trucks on the opposing team if te team is unprepared, normaly a good player will manage to kill him or stall the TR turns, while he is a top treath, nothing tells me victini without the sun is broken since they have a 270 BP attack (the same as a 120BP move in the sun) you're likely gonna be 3HKO in a resisted poke (and any slowbro "outspeeds") this team breaks the teams that expect normal choiced victini, they send their main counter and see be broken into pieces (and even if he force me out i already have TR up) many temas use things like altaria and golduck to get rid of drought, and that just makes them way open to a non-choiced victini or a not-average team, still, against drought i have problems since i don't overprepare, and i don't have a single fire poke in my team (why? there's no good slow fire pokes) and dragons suck for TR, i can deal with many teams, but some well built ones still have the upper hand

You know lilligant, that bitch that's the fastes sleeper that can actually do something, even if you sacrifice something for the sleep first, then you give a free Quiver Dance, which with the new sleep mechanics probably means loosing a poke, which outspeeds any scarfed poke with chlorophyll +1Spd witout speed investment, you know, all in bulk (and if you don't swich out you're likely gonna be sweeped at +2,+3,...), that's the kind of stuff that's almost impossible to revenge unless you have something that can take a +1 life orbed giga drain or a +1 petal dance (OHKO's houndoom after rocks), that's the kibd of stuff that even not mainstream is just impossible to prepare when you have a docen of chlorophyll abusers
 
Posted by Gerard
(why? there's no good slow fire pokes)
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*Cough* Emboar, Camerupt *Cough*

Each of these pokemon are very powerful and each can take a hit.

Camurupt has base stats of 70/100/70/105/75/45. may not look like much of a tank defensively but Pair that with solid rock you got something that can take a hit and keep on trucking.

Embor is 110/123/65/100/65/65 meh
 
looking for a good poke that ressists fire and is bulky i prefere rhyperior, and i don-t think camerup is bad, but solid rock only helps with two things, making him take 1.5 dmage for both water and ground on the sun, and neutral to grass *i want soething that ressists both, emboar is ok, but again he lacks defensive power that other member of TR need
 
Camerupt is Ground/fire not rock/fire
So he is hit 4X by water only

And as for emboar bulk is not comprised only on the defensive stats alone it also depends on hp. Emboar has more than enough of that
 
He is hit x2 from ground (ground is neutral to gound) so the point stands, so there's nothing bith of them can do than victini cannot do better (even in TR) since he can set TR

I ask you, and think about this for a moment, if venusaur and darmatian were UU, would you be banning them because of their power on the sun, making three potential bans, or would you ban vulpix, consider that darmatian's Flare Bitz hits way harder than V-create (thanks to sheer force and recoiless life orb), and venusaur has proven to OHKO almost everything after growth, what would you ban?
 
The point is that they are indeed OU, so any form of argument involving them hold no ground. "What if" means nothing, only "what is."
 
The argument remains if that if the pokes that are powerfull gains it's power because of a sigle variable, then if that variable is removed then the poke becomes "standar" (case in point victini)
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Toxicroak is another pokemon that it's OU because of rain alone.
Try using it in UU with sun and hail everywhere. Obviously it's not going to be nearly as effective as it is in OU.
Why can't I use a pokemon that's clearly not overpowered in UU just because it performs better in OU?

If this doesn't point out the glaring flaw of a usage-based tier system I don't know what it does.
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Because it people start doing complex bans it gets really convoluted really fast and there would be no clear rules.
 
Gerard said:
looking for a good poke that ressists fire and is bulky i prefere rhyperior, and i don-t think camerup is bad, but solid rock only helps with two things, making him take 1.5 dmage for both water and ground on the sun, and neutral to grass *i want soething that ressists both, emboar is ok, but again he lacks defensive power that other member of TR need
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Ummmmm Camurupt in Trick room is wayyyyy better than Victini in trick room.

Camurupt is slower, more powerful in terms of attack, and dead even with him in terms of spatk.
Camurupt can be a great mixed attacker in trick room, but he is even great in a sunroom team (sunny day and trick room). Primarily, because water is weakened and he gets a 1 turn solarbeam he can start firing off destroying the only two weakness.
While on the subject of weaknesses he 2 has while Victini has 4. And Victini loses 1/4 of his health to rocks camurupt doesn't
Lastly, another thing Camurupt has over victini is the ability to survive in two different types of weather without being broken do.

Trust me there are more I just stopped there

I ask you, and think about this for a moment, if venusaur and darmatian were UU, would you be banning them because of their power on the sun, making three potential bans, or would you ban vulpix, consider that darmatian's Flare Bitz hits way harder than V-create (thanks to sheer force and recoiless life orb), and venusaur has proven to OHKO almost everything after growth, what would you ban?
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The way that I see it is if there are particular things that we can pick out about the weather that are broken (as long as that list doesn't grow excessively large) why not just ban those things instead?
We banned Swift swim + drizzle together, and we still have a potent weather threat in rain. Thunder, hurricane, and hydro pump destroys stuff offensively while things like rain dish, dry skin, water absorb, and hydration are great for stalling and can also be beneficial to sweepers as well.
Yet no one complains when Rain poses an offensive and defensive threat but, when Sun poses only an offensive threat and people bitch about it.
Only thing I can even think of that is relatively defensive about sun is Morning sun intimidate arcanine.lol
 
Victini is not strictly worse than Camerupt in TR; it gets V-create (obviously) and that alone lets it do far more damage than Camerupt ever will. Speed (though Victini becomes slower than most things after one V-create) and typing form an argument for Camerupt (no SR weak, not walled by FF Arcanine), but don't pretend that Solarbeam does anything significant to make it better. At best, it's a moot point since Victini gets it too (and 100 attacking stats vs. 105 attacking stats aren't much worse).
 
Azure Demon said:
You're right... Victini becomes shit after using it once and forces you to switch whoopy freakin doo.
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We're talking about Vicitini in Trick Room, you retard. Trick Room turns those Speed drops into more things Vicitini can outspeed under Trick Room and ram through.
 
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