What makes Speed Boost Blaziken not broken? The fact that Blaze Blaziken exists? If by removing an ability/move/level/item/whatever you can make a pokemon not broken, why not do the same for other Ubers? Say no SB Blaziken, no Deoxys-N above level 70, no Lugia with recovery, no Rayquaza with stat boosting moves and moves with over 95 basepower, ect. What makes Blaziken different from all those others?
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
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What makes Speed Boost Blaziken not broken? The fact that Blaze Blaziken exists? If by removing an ability/move/level/item/whatever you can make a pokemon not broken, why not do the same for other Ubers? Say no SB Blaziken, no Deoxys-N above level 70, no Lugia with recovery, no Rayquaza with stat boosting moves and moves with over 95 basepower, ect. What makes Blaziken different from all those others?
We have one too many complex bans as it is. There was a thread called "Tiering By Abilities" saying this exact same view and it didn't go very far. I wouldn't say the idea is ridiculous, but it inherently necessitates a system of determining how powerful a individual form of a pokemon is instead of the pokemon's potential overall.
Going off your suggestion:
Blaziken A(Blaze) is UU material but Blaziken B(Speed Boost) is Uber
-In this case, even though A isn't overpowered and B is, the precedent is to ban all Blaziken because Blaziken B, it's best set, is broken and A&B are the same pokemon just used in different strategies(the abilities, moves, etc.)
A common complaint I see people in favor of complex banning having is the "ridiculous" arguments of a slippery slope and claims that those complex bans have the same merit as Moveset/Level+Pokemon bans. However, both follow the same logic. See:
Lugia A(no Roost/Recover) is a great OU wall, but Lugia B(full moveset) is broken
-See what I did there? By removing one element of the pokemon, the pokemon is no longer Uber. It is still the same pokemon and just because we hypothetically could ban only it's best set, doesn't mean we should because then we would be justified in making Moveset/Level+Pokemon bans as well and that's a path we don't wanna go down.
im not arguing for the allowance of speed boost blaziken at all. I'm arguing for the allowance of Blaze Blaziken and the assumed release of DW Chomp i wont be devastated if Chomp did gets the boot.
Im not saying because Blaze Blaziken exists, that that some how makes Speed Boost okay. I have no idea where you came to that assumption. I have no personal preferences to the pokemon at all.
Nkulukeko, thank you for your post. I will try to find the thread
What if I put it this way..Let us say that gen 6 grants us with even more abilities for the same old pokemon. And hypothetically Magikarp gets an ability called "auto win". When you use Magikarp, your opponents team is all instantly KO'd. What then? Lets say magikarp gets 5 abilities, 4 of which are useless and the last being "auto-win".
What then? ignore the 4 other abilities :/
This is how I see Blaziken and possibly Chomp, and any other pokemon that happens to get a broken ability. I think it wouldn't be too ridiculous to draw the line at ability since this gen provided us with the Dream World which gave us a ton of abilities. That is all. Poke'socialism ftw?
And if we all of a sudden decided to follow VGC rules, I couldnt cry about it, since it was made by the same companies we are emulating in the first place. Perhaps they found a balance (although i doubt it)
In your analogy we ban Auto-win not because it makes Magikarp broken, but because it is itself inherently broken and makes ever Pokemon to ever get that ability broken as well. Speed Boost on the other hand, does not make every Pokemon that has it broken, and therefore is not inherently broken and does not merit a ban.
The reason we don't only ban Speed Boost Blaziken is because we aren't the game designers here, so it's not within our power to decide that we can balance by nerfing, or by deciding that Blaziken shouldn't get Speed Boost. Our only power is to decide whether the Pokemon Blaziken as given to us by GameFreak (which includes all of his possible abilities and moves) is broken or not.
EDIT: Personally, I'd like to know how you came to the conclusion that Speed Boost was a broken ability as you claim in your post, because it would definitely explain a lot about any possible disagreement or misunderstandings.
"Auto-win" magikarp is analogous to "Moody" bidoof in that it would be broken on all pokemon.
I think we'll all agree Ninjask isn't broken.
The only thing left to debate is how stupid Pokemon + Ability bans are.
My opinion, which agrees with Smogon's philosophy, is that you can ban an Ability, or a Pokemon, but not the combination of the two.
I think we'll all agree Ninjask isn't broken.
The only thing left to debate is how stupid Pokemon + Ability bans are.
My opinion, which agrees with Smogon's philosophy, is that you can ban an Ability, or a Pokemon, but not the combination of the two.
Then Tornadus owes me two more wishes
Then we ban the ability b/c it would be broken on every pokemon that has it, like Moody
Speed Boost and Sand Veil aren't broken. Out of the seven pokemon with speed boost, only Blaziken is banned. All 18 Sand Veil users aren't banned yet
I don't think it's ridiculous, I oppose the idea of adding restrictions on individual pokemon to trim them to fit into specific tiers. This is all for the sake of avoiding the slippery slope, since I know lvl/moveset+pokemon bans will follow and don't wanna go down that road. I fully understand that with another ability Blaziken isn't broken. Let's be real, Blaze Blaziken is probably BL at the most. However, I am against instituting complex bans for any reason (Yeah, I wanted Politoed and friends Uber) and remind you that we already took one step on this slope and don't think we should try again.
Go to the Policy Review, look up Aldaron's thread, and then read this thread if you need more evidence that we're going down the slope we argued about back then. Just because one complex ban got through, doesn't mean more will be allowed, and that's why I propose taking official action to stop the expansion of the Aldaron Proposal as precedent for banning
VGC is a separate metagame that has it's own rules, let's keep it that way.
Meh, just ban the freaking Magikarp.
I've always thought that the "Moody-is-banned-because-it's-broken-on-all-pokemon" was always kind of faulty, since if a pokemon without Protect/Substitute later got Moody, then that would no longer be true, but we sure as hell wouldn't unban Moody either.
It seems to be far more stable policy to chalk up Moody to excessive luck implementation, and just avoid banning abilities due to them being broken.
Thus, it'd simplify policy if we just banned Magikarp in that scenario, and avoid unnecessary separation of a pokemon from it's ability; if a pokemon is essentially the embodiment of an auto-win, of course it's going to be broken, regardless of whether the auto win came in the form of abilities, moves, or stats.
I've always thought that the "Moody-is-banned-because-it's-broken-on-all-pokemon" was always kind of faulty, since if a pokemon without Protect/Substitute later got Moody, then that would no longer be true, but we sure as hell wouldn't unban Moody either.
It seems to be far more stable policy to chalk up Moody to excessive luck implementation, and just avoid banning abilities due to them being broken.
Thus, it'd simplify policy if we just banned Magikarp in that scenario, and avoid unnecessary separation of a pokemon from it's ability; if a pokemon is essentially the embodiment of an auto-win, of course it's going to be broken, regardless of whether the auto win came in the form of abilities, moves, or stats.
You obviously read the beginning of my post, since you quoted it, and can clearly see that i was referring to Blaziken with Speed Boost being broken, NOT speed boost itself being broken.
Unless you didn't read my post and are only nit picking for reasons unknown to me.
Thank you again, Nkululeko. and lol, my second wish would be for female machamps with training bras @____@
I sincerely understand where everyone is coming from, really, simplicity is key. But i still sympathize with the pokemon/people wanting to use them(not just Blazikn, EVERY POKE). With the advent of dream world, ability+pokemon bans just seem plausible and the next step. We're already doing it with the split teiring of OU and DWOU, so coding isnt an issue. And Blaze Blaziken wont need retesting. Items and attacks are a different issue i feel, too much of a reach, but abilities seem iight. all we can do, really, is just wait for a vote.
I'm sorry, but I think Nkululeko hit the nail on the head on what Smogon should be doing.
You ban something because it is broken. Not because it is easy to ban. Eventually, Aldaron's Proposal should be repealed and each of the Rain Sweepers should be re-tested. If Kingdra is too good for OU, then it goes. All or none. If Ludicolo is too good, then it goes. If Politoed (or Drizzle) is too good for OU, then it goes. I know Drizzle and Swift Swim together is easy, that doesn't make it right. We didn't ban Salamence+Life Orb, we banned Salamence. We didn't ban Deoxys-S (last Gen) with Taunt, we banned Deoxys-S. We didn't ban Blaziken with Speed Boost, we banned Blaziken. We didn't ban Moody with Substitute, we banned Moody.
Why should we treat Drizzle differently?
EDIT: with the advent of Dream World we're just giving more pokemon more abilities. If the Uber tier has to get bigger, then it will get bigger. If Ludicolo is too good for OU, then it goes to Ubers. We cannot let preconceived notions about certain Pokemon decide their tiering. If they introduced a new event legend with the same typing, ability, stats, and movepool as Politoed or Kingdra I bet we would have just banned them. Common pokemon going to the Uber tier or Drizzle going to the Uber tier is the next step, not Ability+Pokemon bans.
Uh, Dream World OU is not a separate tier or a split tier. It's a metagame that's pretty much just for fun that Smogon introduced because PO did it first. DWOU is unrelated to Standard OU except for the banlist. DWOU is not an officially recognized metagame nor will it ever be unless every Dream World ability gets released, and then it would just become Standard OU.
You ban something because it is broken. Not because it is easy to ban. Eventually, Aldaron's Proposal should be repealed and each of the Rain Sweepers should be re-tested. If Kingdra is too good for OU, then it goes. All or none. If Ludicolo is too good, then it goes. If Politoed (or Drizzle) is too good for OU, then it goes. I know Drizzle and Swift Swim together is easy, that doesn't make it right. We didn't ban Salamence+Life Orb, we banned Salamence. We didn't ban Deoxys-S (last Gen) with Taunt, we banned Deoxys-S. We didn't ban Blaziken with Speed Boost, we banned Blaziken. We didn't ban Moody with Substitute, we banned Moody.
Why should we treat Drizzle differently?
EDIT: with the advent of Dream World we're just giving more pokemon more abilities. If the Uber tier has to get bigger, then it will get bigger. If Ludicolo is too good for OU, then it goes to Ubers. We cannot let preconceived notions about certain Pokemon decide their tiering. If they introduced a new event legend with the same typing, ability, stats, and movepool as Politoed or Kingdra I bet we would have just banned them. Common pokemon going to the Uber tier or Drizzle going to the Uber tier is the next step, not Ability+Pokemon bans.
jormungand201 said:
Uh, Dream World OU is not a separate tier or a split tier. It's a metagame that's pretty much just for fun that Smogon introduced because PO did it first. DWOU is unrelated to Standard OU except for the banlist. DWOU is not an officially recognized metagame nor will it ever be unless every Dream World ability gets released, and then it would just become Standard OU.
Because enough people complained about it to make it happen. Nothing is set in stone, but we're beating a dead horse(or green frogthing). Banning it would ruin defensive rain teams, etc.. The SwSw ban is a fantastic compromise, i think it should be left alone
You must be joking if you think Aldaron's proposal will be left alone. Some of us believe it should be removed and the main abusers (as in, the broken ones) should be banned instead, and there are still a number of people who believe Drizzle is broken even with the restriction. Besides, the amount of complex ban suggestions arisen from Aldaron's proposal has surely made people have second thoughts about it.
I don't believe Drizzle is broken, but I'd rather have it banned and Aldaron's proposal shot down for good than having this complex ban bullshit every two pages in these Suspect threads.
I don't believe Drizzle is broken, but I'd rather have it banned and Aldaron's proposal shot down for good than having this complex ban bullshit every two pages in these Suspect threads.
you said:
Your words mate, not mine.
In case you didn't notice in MY post I explained to you why we can't side along nerf Blaziken by deciding it can't have Speed Boost, but I'm not sure you'd know that since you didn't quote it.
Don't get super defensive mate, I was just trying to explain to you the way we work here.
I presume you mean Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo?
Which would still keep and re-introduce many still-powerful-but-not-broken Swift Swimmers [Floatzel, Goyrebass [Spelling]], in addittion to everything Rain has already that makes quite a number of players belive it's broken even without Swift Swim at all?
Especially as Rain players now know how useful Tornadus/Thunderus are on Rain teams, I think if any decent Swift Swimmer was allowed in OU, Drizzle would be banned before you could say 'Rain Dance'.
The fact that Drizzle made Automatic-Suspect this round, without Swift Swim, is enough proof that re-allowing Swift Swim, which was the inital issue, will only make things worse, even if Kingdra, Kabutops and Ludicolo are banned.
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On the other hand, can people please stop asking for Blaziken to be unbanned, provided it dosen't use Speed Boost?
SPEED BOOST IS PART OF BLAZIKEN. PERMENENT RAIN IS NOT PART OF SWIFT SWIMMERS , NOR IS SWIFT SWIM PART OF DRIZZLE.
See the issue here?
Banning Speed Boost on Blaziken is banning a part of Blaziken, which we cannot do. It's changeing Blaziken.
Banning Drizzle and Swift Swim in tandem is not effecting any pokemon. Drizzle does not double the speed of Kingdra, Swift Swim does. However, Kingdra would not have infinite Double Speed without Drizzle. The two are only broken in TANDEM, and as banning the two abilities in tandem is not limiting Politoad itself, or limiting what Kindra and co can do themselves [They cannot summon Infinite Rain]. Well, maybe. Drizzle is broken in my opinion.
Bear in mind, that the tandem ban was also to better test Drizzle in islolation. If Drizzle is voted OU, I belive the next stage was to test individual Swift Swimmers. Alderon's Proposal was intended as a tempoary solution to find the cause of the problem.
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And now onto the argument Moody makes.
Moody was broken on everything that had it. Even Bidoof. Not to mention Moody broke the Evasion Clause.
Speed Boost is not broken on everything that has it. Sharpedo is not broken with Speed Boost, neither is Ninjask.
Abilitiy bans can only be considered if the ability makes everything that has it broken. If only a handful of the users are broken, then the users who are broken are the issue, as the pokemon breaks the ability. Moody broke even Bidoof. Moody broke everything that had it.
Just to extend this, Drizzle could be banned. Kyogre is arguably broken by Drizzle, or at least, it's a contributor [100% Thunders, and a Boost to it's already insane Water Attacks], and Politoad would be broken by Drizzle if Drizzle is broken.
Therefor, both users of Drizzle are broken by Drizzle. Drizzle could be banned, and Politoad not, because all users of Drizzle are broken by it.
Even if in this situation, to avoid the floodgates, I'd rather just ban Politoad.
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Therefor:
Combo ban does not apply to SB + Blaziken, due to Speed Boost bring part of Blaziken
Ability ban cannot apply because Speed Boost dosen't break everything with it.
Therefor, Blaziken is banned. This will not be changeing unless some other circumstance changes it.
Some people previously mentioned perhaps only banning a few of the swift swimmers. Would Blaziken also be retested in that case, seeing as swift swim kept it in check before
Honestly, that's ridiculously childish and bratty attitude, to search for thousands of reasons and theories to keep Blaziken banned as a whole. So, I assume we're all little brats who can't understand that Speed Boost Blaziken is an exception to the rule, and should something "complex" be done with it, we'll start bitching about how we want so badly to use our awesome favourite Hardy lv 80 Mewtwo in OU?
This isn't anime Pokemon people. Doesn't matter if something is part of a Pokemon or not, it's still just a bunch of numbers we can manipulate at will.
This is a bad sight, as far as complains go, one can expect Garchomp to go away forever, even with his DW ability released. Instead of bringing solutions, we bring problems, only to keep intact useless theories and philosophy.
This isn't anime Pokemon people. Doesn't matter if something is part of a Pokemon or not, it's still just a bunch of numbers we can manipulate at will.
This is a bad sight, as far as complains go, one can expect Garchomp to go away forever, even with his DW ability released. Instead of bringing solutions, we bring problems, only to keep intact useless theories and philosophy.
Why should we allow Blaze Blaziken and not Level 80 hardy Mewtwo?
This seems to me to indicate that you think we should modify anything in the game that we don't like. So, we can change Mewtwo's base stats to make him more in line with OU on PO, should we do that? The fact that we have control over the number's does not mean we should make random changes to it! We play with the mechanics we are given, not the ones we might want. Unfortunately (and I do mean that, Blaziken is easily one of my favorites) that means we have Speed Boost Blaziken and cannot separate him from Blaze Blaziken anymore than separate L100 Mewtwo from L70 Mewtwo.
Glen^^ said:
This seems to me to indicate that you think we should modify anything in the game that we don't like. So, we can change Mewtwo's base stats to make him more in line with OU on PO, should we do that? The fact that we have control over the number's does not mean we should make random changes to it! We play with the mechanics we are given, not the ones we might want. Unfortunately (and I do mean that, Blaziken is easily one of my favorites) that means we have Speed Boost Blaziken and cannot separate him from Blaze Blaziken anymore than separate L100 Mewtwo from L70 Mewtwo.
Thank you for the explanation, i appreciate it. I suppose that came off a little defensive, but it was more annoyance at your ignoring the first part of my post referring to only Blaziken. Claiming speed boost broken was not my intention, but i suppose redundancy is unavoidable.
I don't know what you mean by "trying to explain how we work here", it seems to me that this is implying you're already set in your ways on how things should work, rather than coming to a compromise.
That being said, im actually leaning towards banning kingrda and other major Swift swimmers(after some suspect testing), if that allows Luvdisc and other unbroken swimmers to roam free.
Edit: let me clarify Swift Swim is NOT broken by itself, before someone quotes me incorrectly (looking at you Valkeryies :P)
Because we've common sense and are searching for solutions, not problems. Randomly cogitating stuff for OU by restricting movesets/items are bullshit; yet there's something that screams "I'm UU!" right in our face.
We already modify things in the game that we don't like - we make tiers, clauses, rule sets, etc etc etc. I'm not talking about changing the coding. Just because the game doesn't give you a tool to change Abilities doesn't mean you should make a clause off that, as it's a trivial detail that wouldn't change the outcome of any battle or team.
We already modify things in the game that we don't like - we make tiers, clauses, rule sets, etc etc etc. I'm not talking about changing the coding. Just because the game doesn't give you a tool to change Abilities doesn't mean you should make a clause off that, as it's a trivial detail that wouldn't change the outcome of any battle or team.
I know this (and I'd be willing to ban Thundurus before banning Drizzle...), I even mentioned those people in the post. That's why I'm saying Aldaron's proposalwill be revisited one day, because Drizzle is still such a controversial issue.
What screams UU? Do you mean Blaziken without Speed Boost? Level 50 Mewtwo also screams UU, why should Blaziken get a special exception? Why are you ok with restricting abilities, but not moves, items, and levels?
Glen, your preposterous accusations make me laugh. Banning Blaziken only if it has speed boost is so trivial. Why are you okay with banning items/movesets if not abilities? You're entire idea is purely preposterous. This is not the show, and you sound to be playing the "But it's my favorite Poke'mon!" card. We have no control over what Nintendo gives a Poke'mon; if it were up to Smogon, every Poke'mon would be directly viable in OU, as opposed to how things are now. If you really want to play with precious Blaziken in OU, play on P.O.'s servers. But know that there are reasons why Smogon makes their own rules list, and why most of us play by it.
Because Blaziken was already a standard level 100 Pokemon that only got "broken" with his DW ability that's perfectly viable in both UU and OU teams should a restriction be put on.
Stop arguing just for the sake of being contrary to everything. You're matured enough to figure by yourself why Blaziken is an exception to the rule, and why items and movesets restrictions borders on ridiculous.
While I hate discussing this, I keep on because I'm really worried about future decisions.
We should draw the line between what's acceptable and what isn't now, to make fair judgements in future decisions.
Edit: ^ as much as I love Blaziken, I wouldn't use him in OU without Speed Boost. As I said, I care about the future decisions. Don't cogitate stuff that could be bring down to OU if some crazy restriction was put on it; cogitate stuff that could be kept in OU.
Yes, items and movesets restrictions are ridiculous. But so are ability restrictions. There is really no difference between the two. So I ask again, why do you support ability restrictions, but not level/item/move restrictions? Why is Blaziken an exception to the rule?
See, works for Mewtwo as well.Glen^^ said:
Changing the subject again.
I'm wondering, do people still have this notion that if Drizzle is banned, then a landslide of bans will proceed? I can't imagine sun taking over with Tyranitar everywhere, not to mention Ninetales has some serious flaws. As far as Sand goes, I'd like to think everyone has a good idea of how to deal with Excadrill, but banning rain would pretty much make Garchomp worse to face.
So from I can tell, if Drizzle goes, then Garchomp looks like it would be the only one to get the axe.
I'm wondering, do people still have this notion that if Drizzle is banned, then a landslide of bans will proceed? I can't imagine sun taking over with Tyranitar everywhere, not to mention Ninetales has some serious flaws. As far as Sand goes, I'd like to think everyone has a good idea of how to deal with Excadrill, but banning rain would pretty much make Garchomp worse to face.
So from I can tell, if Drizzle goes, then Garchomp looks like it would be the only one to get the axe.
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