np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

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Blue_Star: (issue of weather abuse) "And it is, imo, pretty easy to counter."

Since when was weather abuse easy to counter. Like KingClown has already stated, if you build a team around counters, there isn't common Pokemon that counter all three weather spam. Unless you count droughttales, drizzletoed, ttar and hippodown =/

And doesn't that highlight that there is something wrong with the metagame if you must have Pokemon "x" in order to counter Pokemon "y".

Yes the common definition of "broken" is when a Pokemon has few/no counters *cough excadrill* but broken is also defined as something that makes the metagame worse just by existing i.e weather spam abuse.


Blue_Star: "I don't think weather itself deserves a ban because it's one of the 5th gen marks and the metagame would take a big hit with weather banned."

The 5th gen marks (DW) all caused a huge impact on the game. 5th gen introduced the cheapest abilities and pokemon and it's nothing to merit imo.

Additionally, as Kurashi has already identified, the majority of OU Pokemon will still be used - Ferrothorn, Chomp, Dragonite extra won't be any less cool without weather abuse =/ Yes the statistics for things like Toxicroak will go down, but its not like banning drizzle prevents people from using it. This is sadly what the 5th gen metagame has turned into, using the cheapest of tactics to ensure wins (for example SV Chomp). Should it not be about what makes the metagame fair?
 
Nothing can safely switch into SP Charizard. Nothing. Politoed is 2HKO'd with Specs Air Slash, and even if Charizard uses LO, offensive Politoed is still always 2HKOd with SR.

Charizard is frail, quite slow, as a ton of weaknesses, takes 50% thanks to SR, loses 1/8 of his health each turn, is easily outspeed if not running a scarf, he can't switch on any offensive things. If you anticipe the right move of a choice version he won't be able to do anything and won't come anymore. He's really not the best exemple of weather brokenness.

Thunderous has no counters period. it just has too many options to take down things. Taunt, Hammer Arm, Sub Stall with Prankster and Toxic/Torment/etc.

But it has nothing to do with weather, right ? Even without, he has his trollish base speed, his ridiculous SpA, his good movepool, his priority T-Wave or Taunt... Rain "just" brings it Thunder, but he doesn't really need it to be broken. That's why he's suspect.

ffs Excadril could even run HP Ice to beat Gliscor. With Naive (there are no common special priority moves, and you lose to Vaccum Wave anyway) Gliscor takes a minimum of 55% from a 4 SpA HP Ice. Toxic Orb activates, and does not heal. Gliscor uses Protect as Drilly HP Ices/SD's. So now Gliscor is at a maximum of 57%. Barring another successful Protect or another very bad damage roll, Excadrill finishes the 2HKO. Team Preview lets you confidently attack with HP Ice knowing there is a Gliscor waiting.

Well, about Excadrill I'm a bit more nuanced. Even if I don't have lots of problems with it , I think the build restriction he causes can be annoying.
There are ways to deal with it effectively, but it's really the only problematic weather abuser to me.

They CAN beat their counters. So yeah, by that definition, they ARE broken.
I don't thing you brang the best exemples to prove that. Maybe some weather abusers desserve to be banned, but ban all the weather will not solve anything.
 
Rain is about giving already strong things a subtle, yet effective boost. Thunder is "only" 25 BP higher than Thunderbolt. Rain Waterfall is 40 BP higher. I'm pretty sure that when you factor in that Thundy already has no counters, and it has Nasty Plot, 25 BP higher (+STAB) will go a long way to killing Chansey/Blissey/Pokemon X.

Sun is about completely blasting your way through walls for a sweep. Show me something that can take a CB Flare Blitz from Darmanitan, and I'll show you a Flash Fire user who dies to EQ/Superpower/Rock Slide. Sun sweepers are about killing something, and then probably not living the next turn. But guess what? You have 4 more to finish the job. They have common counters and checks, like Heatran and Latias, and sooner or later that counter or check will die and the rest of the team will have a major advantage. This is where overcentralization comes into play. Packing just one of the checks probably means you're going to lose to a well made sun team. Packing 2 of them, you can still be beaten, but not as often. But then again, now you only have 4 team slots to counter the other 3 weathers and then other teams.

Sand is about Ground/Rock type coverage and handy SR resists, slowly powering through the other team. A wide variety of things can be used, including things like Ferrothorn who take no SS damage and provide hard water counters. SS provides the best effects of any weather, boosting SpD of Rocks, removing opponents' Morning Sun/Moonlight recovery, and providing speed and Evasion boosts. Sand is probably the easiest weather to abuse, as it has 2 users in T-Tar and Hippo.

Yes, all the weathers are counterable. Kyogre is counterable. Chople Berry Sap Sipper Miltank counters Breloom. But when you have to use Pokemon X or Pokemon Y beats you, or having to pick which Pokemon you can counter and which ones you can't have a team-slot to counter, the metagame is having problems. You can't counter all 649 Pokemon, but you can sure as hell use weather to overpower them. When you make the metagame like that, team matchups matter more than skill. That isn't healthy competition, obviously.
 
They CAN beat their counters. So yeah, by that definition, they ARE broken.
I will have to disagree with you. Gimping yourself to beat your counters doesn't mean its broken. It's called 'luring'. I'd laugh if I see HP Ice Excadrill because it means it either has no way of touching Breloom/Virizion (trololol 50 base SpA hp ice) or its walled by random fliers/levitating pokemon, lacks an STAB move (lol) or doesn't have Swords Dance (not broken).
I'm really not sure as to weather its weather (pardon the pun) that is broken or not. I'm inclined to ban the worst abusers and preserve weather, as I get the feeling that some people just want to ban weather and turn 5th gen into 4th gen. I am really not sure, though.

Yes, all the weathers are counterable. Kyogre is counterable. Chople Berry Sap Sipper Miltank counters Breloom. But when you have to use Pokemon X or Pokemon Y beats you, or having to pick which Pokemon you can counter and which ones you can't have a team-slot to counter, the metagame is having problems. You can't counter all 649 Pokemon, but you can sure as hell use weather to overpower them. When you make the metagame like that, team matchups matter more than skill. That isn't healthy competition, obviously.
Well, that's kind of the thing about this metagame. There are so many viable threats that you can't prepare for them all -- this metagame is actually more centered around skill, in my opinion. You need to give yourself the tools and have the ability to play around things rather than being able to hard counter everything. Teambuilding is perhaps more important than ever, but so is strategy. It's not straight rock-paper-scissors. More skill is needed, because there isn't any more "mindlessly switching in a counter" anymore. You need to have long-term thinking to play around threats that you don't have a counter for. (As a side note, I think Team Preview facilitates that.)

*cringes*
 
That couldn't be much more wrong.

It was a joke...

Sometimes, I wager that between Azumarill and Rotom-W/Thunderus/Ferrothorn, both dominant weathers are stopped dead, unless the player knows what they are doing.

Lol

Horrible jokes aside, I'm in no way a fan of auto weather but I don't see them as broken. The generally keep each other in check and lol to the guy saying Charizard is broken. The issue with weather is that it boosts such a large number of pokemon that they're all in some way kinda balanced.

-Excadrill-Annoying, no doubt, but running an opposing auto weather can check it as it loses the main part of it's niche (ridiculous speed) but it's manageable.
-Charizard-The guy I quoted pretty much summed up all I need to say on Azumarill beating it, Ttar is still around, staple Sand team members can handle it, and don't forget about taking 1/2 from SR(which basically does all the work for your opponent anyway).

The tricky thing about weather wars is that the danger, not sure if it's broken at this point but we all know it's strong, comes from a combination of pokes, which prevents single ones from being broken(Excadrill wouldn't be all that good without Ttar/Hippo) and the main weathers essentially keep each other in check.
 
Although i am rather tempted to ban weathers to see the outcome, I still believe in allowing the new 5th gen weather users.

We continue to patch an old soggy box. Every band-aid we put on our current progressively stagnant system, reveals a fracture on another aspect of the metagame, stepping on its own toes because of the arguably legitimate reasoning behind Slippery Slope, and more tangible constraint of time and the tediousness involved if we DO decide to retest every tier with the Ability+Pokemon ban.

Yes, that means we will have to retest Flashtails, and Overcoat Reuniclus, but first our current suspects will act as torch runners to guide and systematize future Ability-questionable pokes.

Although this is really a pain in the ass, what real difference will there be if the testing didnt take place? You already use that time to play on a fan made pokemon server. You'd be involved in one day bringing the metagame to a new standard. When you already have to memorize resists, super effects, damage calculations and a have an impeccable memory, the case by case basis of "broken and not broken" will gradually ease all(new and old) users into a new comfort zone.

When you think about it, arguing about this process taking too much time and effort really comes down to this; "Why are you complaining about "wasting" time on an online pokemon game that has no real purpose to you, outside of entertainment." All we have is time to spend, and since your already taking the time to become a good pokemon battler, which includes learning that entry hazards are good, damage calculations, movesets etc.. Why not retest every individual ability for each pokemon with multiple abilities?

The same idea could be used to justify item/move+pokemon bans, but I think it is in the communities power to draw the line at ability+poke bans, because an agreement was reached. Arguing "its not what the creators wanted" holds no water because smogon and pokemon online are NOT a part of gamefreak or nintendo, and simply by creating a fan made server you break the self imposed rule of doing something the creators didnt intend. simply by not following VGC, you break the argument because of the non official tiers we've created(ubers,OU,UU,etc.) I am not saying we should follow VGC. I allow myself to logically decide that Blaze Blaziken is not Uber.

Dream World felt like a parade to usher in this new banning process. Dream world made some overlooked pokemon better, and allowed some overly good pokemon to nerf themselves out of ubers, while still viable in Ubers if said banned ability was picked. Now the boost/nerf could tilt to an extreme like in Speed Boost Blaziken, where from there suspect tests will take place. This way we make available blaze blaziken, possibly all Garchomp, Non-swim swift kingdra and maybe one day non-Sand Rush exadrill.

I end with the understanding that these suggestions might be accepted and one day tweaked. I hope it is tweaked when needed, but only if it balances the metagame evenly. Perhpas Weather itself is broken? but before asking that, i would consider drawing a line at ability+pokemon bans
 
Jormungand201, people know Blaziken wouldn't be Uber if it only had Blaze. The thing is, no one (besides you) wants to go through the painstaking process of testing every potentially non-suspect Pokemon/ability combination just to let things like Blaze Blaziken, which few people in their right minds would ever use, back into OU. It's not about "wasting time"; obviously, Pokemon is about entertainment. It's about the degree of effort that goes into all of those tests, which have an end result of splitting a bunch of Pokemon into two (or three) and putting each version of a Pokemon into a different tier. You realize that this proposal doubles the amount of suspect tests for EVERY Pokemon with a potentially beneficial ability. Let's say Slowbro's too good for UU. We'd have to test, is it only too good with Regenerator, or is it too good even if it has Own Tempo? And each suspect test adds up to thousands of pages of people bickering over miniscule points on a ton of Pokemon, which mostly just ends up allowing Pokemon that no one cares about into a given tier (hooray, we're all so excited we can still use our Blaze Blaziken and Sand Throw Excadrill!).

Face it, even if you think that's worth it, the vast majority of the community does not, so it's never going to happen.
 
jormungand, by the time we followed your suggestions, the next pokemon games would be out, and we'd have actually wasted all of the time we had in that metagame. All of it would be irrelevant by Grey.
No, we don't have unlimited time.
Think about that. Every single discussion of a pokemon could take 2+ months, and, as Stathakis put it (i think) maybe we should settle for playing and enjoying an imperfect metagame instead of spending so much effort on perfecting it until we don't have any time to enjoy it before the next meta is here. It's like working to improve your retirement quality, then dying before retiring 9.9
 
While Drizzle/Drought bans would be mildly reasonable at best, I really don't get why people want to get rid of sand, and especially hail, like there's no tomorrow. The latter two shouldn't be lumped into the same league as former two.

Sand supports significantly less pokes than Drizzle or Drought. Sand doesn't directly support Steels or Grounds, they're just immune to the damage. While every Rock type gets the Sp. Def boost, you have to remember that Rock is a somewhat flimsy defensive type (Fighting, Ground, Water, Grass, Steel weaknesses, ouch), and the only Rock types that can take advantage of it nicely are Tyranitar, Terrakion, Cradily, and maybe Regirock.

Ability wise, Sand Rush and Sand Power have incredibly limited distribution. Excadrill, Stoutland, and eventually Sandslash are the only Sand Rush users (compare that to all the Swift Swimmers and Chloro pokes). Sand Power is currently limited to Landorus (who for some reason fell off the face of the earth) and Excadrill *yawn*. The only poke that comes close to breaking Sand Veil is Garchomp (who is naturally a pain), seeing as the rest of the SV pokes have a better ability to use (Dugtrio, Gliscor), or have issues that prevent them from unleashing havoc (Sandslash, Cacturne).

Hail itself is very flimsy, what with Ice being one of the worst typings ever, and it doesn't help that Gen V dumped a load of fighting types to give Aboma a nightmare. The closest thing to threatening that hail can throw out is Kyurem, but other than him, hail poses little to no threat (kinda rare to see a well built hail team). Ice Body is pretty much limited to Walrein, who, again, has issues with every fighting type in existence. The best Snow Cloak abuser is Froslass, who is nowhere near broken with the ability.

What's the harm in letting sand roam free while hipsters try to get hail to work? It's not like there's gonna be constant weather wars that people dislike so much.
 
We continue to patch an old soggy box. Every band-aid we put on our current progressively stagnant system, reveals a fracture on another aspect of the metagame, stepping on its own toes because of the arguably legitimate reasoning behind Slippery Slope, and more tangible constraint of time and the tediousness involved if we DO decide to retest every tier with the Ability+Pokemon ban.

So wait. You realize it's tedious, leads to crazy new ban proposals, and you wanna retest every tier? I smell a Troll....

Although this is really a pain in the ass, what real difference will there be if the testing didnt take place? You already use that time to play on a fan made pokemon server. You'd be involved in one day bringing the metagame to a new standard.

You must really like Blaziken...

When you think about it, arguing about this process taking too much time and effort really comes down to this; "Why are you complaining about "wasting" time on an online pokemon game that has no real purpose to you, outside of entertainment." All we have is time to spend, and since your already taking the time to become a good pokemon battler, which includes learning that entry hazards are good, damage calculations, movesets etc.. Why not retest every individual ability for each pokemon with multiple abilities?

Who has that much free time?

This way we make available blaze blaziken, possibly all Garchomp, Non-swim swift kingdra and maybe one day non-Sand Rush exadrill.

Garchomp, Kingdra, and Excadrill aren't banned. Anybody else here seeing a pattern here?
 
Garchomp, Kingdra, and Excadrill aren't banned. Anybody else here seeing a pattern here?

Thats because we have new tools to actually directly counter them. Porygon2 can actually take on Garchomp with Eviolite and Cloyster can now tank its hits and OHKO through subs with Icicle Spear. Kingdra has the new Ferrocent combo it has massive trouble getting past, its only broken under Drizzle while paired with other Swift swimmers. Excadrill also has hard stops- Azumarill, Gliscor, Dusclops can still spin block etc. theyre not broken.
 
All of these counters everyone is listing are UU. Azumarill, Dusclops, etc. Porygon2 BARELY made OU. Missingno. is used more than Dusclops...

If these counters (especially Azumarill) counter all of these top threats and weathers, then why are they not used?
 
Thats because we have new tools to actually directly counter them. Porygon2 can actually take on Garchomp with Eviolite and Cloyster can now tank its hits and OHKO through subs with Icicle Spear. Kingdra has the new Ferrocent combo it has massive trouble getting past, its only broken under Drizzle while paired with other Swift swimmers. Excadrill also has hard stops- Azumarill, Gliscor, Dusclops can still spin block etc. theyre not broken.

I was referring to the fact that his entire argument stemmed from Blaziken.

On that note, we need to do something about the constant clamoring for complex bans or repeal the Aldaron Proposal. If we were testing Drizzle as an Uber ability then why keep it nerfed? What merits keeping that complex ban over the others? I'm not supporting the pro-ken movement, I'm going in the opposite direction. Why keep the Aldaron Proposal?

"If these counters (especially Azumarill) counter all of these top threats and weathers, then why are they not used?"

Because weathers counter each other and there isn't a need to have overspecialized counters for pokemon that are managable.
 
All of these counters everyone is listing are UU. Azumarill, Dusclops, etc. Porygon2 BARELY made OU. Missingno. is used more than Dusclops...

If these counters (especially Azumarill) counter all of these top threats and weathers, then why are they not used?

Maybe because... not everyone needs them!!!!!
 
I disagree with banning weather, but don't really care enough to respond to everything. Nonetheless, I'd like to point out just a few places where your arguments get off the map, Kingclown50.

Sun is about completely blasting your way through walls for a sweep. Show me something that can take a CB Flare Blitz from Darmanitan, and I'll show you a Flash Fire user who dies to EQ/Superpower/Rock Slide. Sun sweepers are about killing something, and then probably not living the next turn. But guess what? You have 4 more to finish the job. They have common counters and checks, like Heatran and Latias, and sooner or later that counter or check will die and the rest of the team will have a major advantage. This is where overcentralization comes into play. Packing just one of the checks probably means you're going to lose to a well made sun team. Packing 2 of them, you can still be beaten, but not as often. But then again, now you only have 4 team slots to counter the other 3 weathers and then other teams.

First of all, your Darmanitan statement is ridiculous. "Show me something to take this, and I'll tell you why my teammate can EQ it." Teammates open up sweeps for each other. It's called good teambuilding. Unless you were talking about Darmanitan itself, who doesn't have EQ (shoulda checked that yourself). Furthermore, you said CB Darmanitan, in which case it's now locked into Superpower/Rock Slide and it's easily revenge-killed.

Also, you act like by carrying 2 sun checks, you now only have 4 members left. Guess what? Those 2 checks can do other things besides checking sun. There's no rule that says "Sun checks may do absolutely nothing besides check sun." You still have 6 members.


I would just ban Excadril (or his Sand Rush Ability if we decide to go that route) and Garchomp (or Sand Veil) and take it from there.

Would anyone be willing to find out how many of the top ~50 teams are weather teams, or dedicated anti-weather teams? I'm guessing it would be over 30, which is pretty damn high. If the only way you can win is to use Strategy/Pokemon X or Strategy/Pokemon X's small list of counters, then that Strategy/Pokemon is overcentralizing.

Prove to me and my supporters and fellow Anti-Weather Users that this metagame truly is balanced. Prove to us banning this clusterfuck of weather would be BAD for the metagame

About your ban ideas, it's generally agreed upon that ability bans only happen when it's the ability that is broken, not a combination of ability+other things. Since Sand Rush doesn't break everything that has it (Stoutland), it's not broken. Same for your Garchomp idea. So that was a sorta bad idea.

First of all, 30/50 is barely more than half, and since this is the top 50, you obviously don't have to run one of those strategies to be successful. One last thing, I highly doubt the number would be as much as 30.

You say to prove that removing weather would be bad for the metagame. Why don't you prove that keeping weather would be bad for the metagame? Given that you're the one who has to convince us, because weather's already here, and you haven't done so yet.


(Yeah, you have to counter Excadril, Zapdos, Dragonite, Darmanitan, Garchomp, Venusaur, Heatran, Charizard, Toxicroak, Tyranitar, etc. AND still be able to beat them and other teams. I don't think I can think of 6 Pokemon that counter all weather [unless of course one of them is Politoed, Hippowdon, Tyranitar, or Ninetales] and can beat ALL weather and can beat non-weather teams.)

First of all, countering everything is not what's important. Counters are good, counters are helpful and useful, counters are important sometimes. But if something has 0 counters and 50 checks, it's not broken. Also, there's no way that a team of 6 Pokemon could beat every single threat anyway. You simply focus on the biggest and most common threats (i.e. OU/UU threats). Weather does not change this fact in any way.


Something having counters doesn't automatically mean it's not broken (insert cliche Kyogre vs Quagsire/Gastrondon argument here). If the only way to win is to use a certain Pokemon/Straategy or that certain Pokemon/Strategy's small (emphasis on small) list of "counters," then that Pokemon/Strategy is overcentralizing and should be banned. Having to anti-team weather to be successful in this metagame isn't making me want to leave it the way it is.

Kyogre is not a good analogy here. Quagsire/Gastrodon suck in Ubers. They do. They counter Kyogre, and then are deadweight against everything else. Whereas counters to weather pokemon are actually viable, which is why it's different.

And the list isn't that small, nor does someone have to run Anti-weather. Read this thread (and the Round 3 one) to get good examples of that.


Excadrill beats Skarmory with a Rock Slide flinch. One Flinch. Not the best way to beat a counter, but its going to happen 20% of the time.

Nothing can safely switch into SP Charizard. Nothing. Politoed is 2HKO'd with Specs Air Slash, and even if Charizard uses LO, offensive Politoed is still always 2HKOd with SR.

ffs Excadril could even run HP Ice to beat Gliscor. With Naive (there are no common special priority moves, and you lose to Vaccum Wave anyway) Gliscor takes a minimum of 55% from a 4 SpA HP Ice. Toxic Orb activates, and does not heal. Gliscor uses Protect as Drilly HP Ices/SD's. So now Gliscor is at a maximum of 57%. Barring another successful Protect or another very bad damage roll, Excadrill finishes the 2HKO. Team Preview lets you confidently attack with HP Ice knowing there is a Gliscor waiting.

About the Excadrill thing, Starmie can beat Ferrothorn if it crits 2x in a row. Anything can beat its counters with enough hax, and that's a kinda terrible argument to use.

In your Charizard example, that same Politoed could be Scarfed and then OHKO the Charizard. Or maybe the opponent switches in their priority user (given that SR already probably has you at 50%). Attemting to say that Charizard is broken is definitely not the best example you could've used.

About your HP ICe Excadrill example. If Exca uses HP Ice, he utterly neuters himself against other threats, and is probably not going to sweep a good team, even after the Gliscor dies. Exca needs all his coverage (and SD) and an HP Ice Excadrill would definitely not be broken.


Maybe because... not everyone needs them!!!!!
utter qft
 
ITT: SlimMan ftw
I'd also like to add about ability bans that an ability should only be banned when it not only is broken on everything that has it but is also broken on everything that could ever get it.

EXAMPLE: Moody. Moody was broken on Bidoof, which is literally one of the worst pokemon. Therefore, it's broken on everything but Shedinja. Shedinja is irrelevant. Don't bring it up.

However, if we, for example, found Sheer Force to be universally broken (which it isn't, but for the sake of argument...) then we might ban it. And then, in Pokemon Grey/another game, along comes a thoroughly crappy pokemon which isn't broken with Sheer Force. Would we continue to have Sheer Force banned? Or would we ban all the Sheer Force pokemon except for that new pokemon?

Whatever our answer would be, I would sincerely hope it's not a Pokemon + Ability ban.
 
Ok first of all, Darmanitan does learn Earthquake. I do know at least that much.

I guess I'm done arguing. I would like to be able to articulate what I'm trying to say better, but I just can't. My points have been made. The player base isn't going to change its mind. I can't PROVE whether (no pun intended) this metagame or a weatherless one would be more balanced and competitive, because I have no idea what the weatherless one would look like. We would need for it to exist to make the best judgement as to which is better. I guess there could be a weatherless ladder to find out, but I doubt that is going to happen either.

Final Note: When you take into consideration that weather affects an entire team, and in some cases nerfs the opposing one (eg. Morning Sun, Fire/Water Attacks), the weather abusers are far stronger than Blaziken is. Azumarill kills Excadrill just as much as it kills Blaziken, and Slowbro is to Blaziken as Gliscor is to Drilly.
 
Pokemon Online said:
Dream World Ubers

Arceus, Chandelure, Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Lugia, Manaphy, Mewtwo, Moody (Ability), Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-S, Soul Dew (Item), Zekrom

Note what is missing from both lists.

PO obviously knows something we don't.
 
All of these counters everyone is listing are UU. Azumarill, Dusclops, etc. Porygon2 BARELY made OU. Missingno. is used more than Dusclops...

If these counters (especially Azumarill) counter all of these top threats and weathers, then why are they not used?

Azumarill is BAERLY UU, and it's probobly only because people stopped using it when Blaziken was gone, because that was it's #1 reason to be used. With Victini likly going up to OU as well, Azumarill useage should pick up again.

What's stopping people using a UU pokemon in OU anyway? CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet is almost as powerful as Scizor's Bullet Punch, can get a rain boost, and has a far better offensive typing. It's Superpower IS more powerful.

Besides, if Chandelure and Swampert can make OU in the current metagame by a good 10/15 places... I wouldn't put too much emphasis on Azumarill only just being UU.

Anyway, where did anyone call Azumarill a counter to anything? It's a REVENGE KILLER, or a Lure to Ferrothorn.

While Drizzle/Drought bans would be mildly reasonable at best, I really don't get why people want to get rid of sand, and especially hail, like there's no tomorrow. The latter two shouldn't be lumped into the same league as former two.

Sand supports significantly less pokes than Drizzle or Drought. Sand doesn't directly support Steels or Grounds, they're just immune to the damage. While every Rock type gets the Sp. Def boost, you have to remember that Rock is a somewhat flimsy defensive type (Fighting, Ground, Water, Grass, Steel weaknesses, ouch), and the only Rock types that can take advantage of it nicely are Tyranitar, Terrakion, Cradily, and maybe Regirock.

Ability wise, Sand Rush and Sand Power have incredibly limited distribution. Excadrill, Stoutland, and eventually Sandslash are the only Sand Rush users (compare that to all the Swift Swimmers and Chloro pokes). Sand Power is currently limited to Landorus (who for some reason fell off the face of the earth) and Excadrill *yawn*. The only poke that comes close to breaking Sand Veil is Garchomp (who is naturally a pain), seeing as the rest of the SV pokes have a better ability to use (Dugtrio, Gliscor), or have issues that prevent them from unleashing havoc (Sandslash, Cacturne).

Hail itself is very flimsy, what with Ice being one of the worst typings ever, and it doesn't help that Gen V dumped a load of fighting types to give Aboma a nightmare. The closest thing to threatening that hail can throw out is Kyurem, but other than him, hail poses little to no threat (kinda rare to see a well built hail team). Ice Body is pretty much limited to Walrein, who, again, has issues with every fighting type in existence. The best Snow Cloak abuser is Froslass, who is nowhere near broken with the ability.

What's the harm in letting sand roam free while hipsters try to get hail to work? It's not like there's gonna be constant weather wars that people dislike so much.

I agree with this, there is no need to ban Sand or Hail.

Sand is not broken. It does not provide an extra STAB boost to already powerful sweepers, rock types get their Sp.Def buffed when most of them have horribly low Sp.Def, and a bucketload of weaknesses on the special side. The passive damage is useful, but nothing compared to the raw might Sun/Rain gives.

If sand is 'broken', it's probobly not because of sand, but because of Garchomp/Excadrill, the former being debateable even without Sand. In this siatuation, the single/duet of broken pokemon would probobly be banned.

Rain makes loads of pokemon broken or borderline broken, as with Sun, far too many to justify banning the individual pokemon, as we'd probobly lose a good 10 pokemon to balance rain, and 5 or so to balance sun. Which is more justifyable; banning 10 pokemon who would otherwise be UU with no questions to balance Rain, or to ban Rain because to makes so many pokemon broken?

And, if Hail is ever broken, it'll be due to Kyurem. It's the only thing Hail got this generation, after all.

Note what is missing from both lists.

PO obviously knows something we don't.

This post ninja'ed mine, so editing to respond:

DW is not an offical Smogon metagame. DW does not exist, Smogon deals with metagames that do exist. The only things that are banned from DW are the obvious Ubers, as far as I know.

Also, it's unlikly that DW Chandelure will ever exist anyway, at least, before the 3rd game/Hoenn Remakes. Overworld sprites for all but a handful of Unova pokemon [Such as the 2nd form in the Sandile line] DO NOT EXIST IN THE GAME'S FILES. That would cause issues if a Litwik was ever to show up in Entree Forest. What would it's overworld be? Missingo?

Finally, using PO as an example of balance isn't wise... Blaziken is allowed, as is Swift Swim + Drizzle, two stupidly broken things [Although SS+Drizzle ironically checks Blaziken]. Not to mention despite Rain being everywhere on PO, Tornadus is in their 3rd Teir...
 
Sand is not broken. It does not provide an extra STAB boost to already powerful sweepers,

not really true, the drizzle+ss ban got rid of pretty much all of these offenders. Now gyarados and starmie are the only water sweepers left really, and not many would call them overpowered.

The real rain abusers are ferrothorn, thundurus, latios, scizor, dragonite, toxicroak, tornadus and maybe a few others. None of them get an extra STAB boost.
 
It's true Gzig that sometimes opposing opinions are pushed aside.
For example Kurashi made very good points on how weather will not effect the majority of OU statistics, but instead of commenting on the basis of his whole argument people pinpointed the small error he made about Heatran because it was the only thing they could criticize and prove wrong.


Not only this but I feel like sometimes people are misreading and putting words in peoples mouths. Sand Rush Stoutland is nowhere near as broken as Sand Rush Excadrill. As KingClown has roughly said, sandstorm itself isn't broken, it does not mess around with stab boosts and weaknesses like drizzle and drought but however certain abilities within sand storm are broken. Such as the Sand Rush ability on Excadrill (which is just like drizzle + swift swim btw).

On this note sandstorm would be the hardest to differentiate. However, this doesn't mean that it cannot be done. I myself have battled on a server which has banned drizzle and drought abuse but allows sandstorm. The main Broken Pokemon however, within sandstorm are banned i.e SR Excadrill and SV Chomp. (Hail is still allowed because nothing about it is broken.)

I know the argument is that if we were to do this on smogon too, it would mean everything would need to be tested again. But this is not the case. We are not promoting banning separate abilities on every Pokemon. We are referring to ban only such Broken Abilities in OU, such as SV Chomp which was banned in 4th gen because it allowed a one turn hax to effect the outcome of the match. Yes I know hax is a part of the game, but it doesn't mean we should be abusing it.


'Yes but that's making it like 4th gen. This is 5th gen deal with it'
When something is broken it should be banned. Full Stop. No ifs and buts.


"Also, you act like by carrying 2 sun checks, you now only have 4 members left. Guess what? Those 2 checks can do other things besides checking sun. There's no rule that says "Sun checks may do absolutely nothing besides check sun." You still have 6 members."

We have to carry counter checks for sun/rain/ sand(excadrill or chomp) do you get how ridiculous this is sounding? There is nothing that counters all of the above. Unless you count using a weather team yourself. This is called over centralizing. Yes these checks do other things aswell, but to create an 'effective' team which counters everything broken, you are limited to a very narrow choice, with only one or two spaces on you're team left.


Mario With Lasers: "I am not saying that Drizzle per se is broken (I'd agree on banning Thundurus/Starmie before Drizzle...)"

Nuff said.


To conclude this argument I would like to point out that weather effects the whole of the metagame in a negative way. It's not like one Pokemon which in itself is broken such as shadow tag Chandelure. Weather (drizzle/drought) mixes up stab boosts and weaknesses of a large majority of Pokemon. It allows Pokemon 'X' to live Pokemon 'Y's' attack. It allows 'Y' to kill pokemon 'Z'. Without permanent weather 'Mario With Lasers' things such as 'Thundusus/Starmie' wouldn't need to be banned. Like KingClown has said 'why isn't weather being blamed for over centralizing?'


Now if anyone would like to falter my argument instead of pinpointing a weaker argument to counter, I would be happy to listen to you.
 
It's true Gzig that sometimes opposing opinions are pushed aside.
For example Kurashi made very good points on how weather will not effect the majority of OU statistics, but instead of commenting on the basis of his whole argument people pinpointed the small error he made about Heatran because it was the only thing they could criticize and prove wrong.

It's called a fundamental part of making an argument, Ethos. Prove that you are more credible than your opponent by criticising him. Did he deserve it, no, but hey it's the internet.

Not only this but I feel like sometimes people are misreading and putting words in peoples mouths. Sand Rush Stoutland is nowhere near as broken as Sand Rush Excadrill. As KingClown has roughly said, sandstorm itself isn't broken, it does not mess around with stab boosts and weaknesses like drizzle and drought but however certain abilities within sand storm are broken. Such as the Sand Rush ability on Excadrill (which is just like drizzle + swift swim btw).

You admit that Sand Rush isn't broken and then imply it's broken in Sand. Excadrill is only broken in ideal situations(SS up) and even then it's possible to deal with it. Sand Russ Excadrill isn't like Drizzle+Swift Swim because it's only on a SINGLE pokemon and doesn't provide that extra STAB you mentioned.

On this note sandstorm would be the hardest to differentiate. However, this doesn't mean that it cannot be done. I myself have battled on a server which has banned drizzle and drought abuse but allows sandstorm. The main Broken Pokemon however, within sandstorm are banned i.e SR Excadrill and SV Chomp. (Hail is still allowed because nothing about it is broken.)

Excadrill and Chomp have viable checks and counters in SMOGON's server which allows drizzle and drought. Without other weathers one is going to be dominant, they balance each other out.

I know the argument is that if we were to do this on smogon too, it would mean everything would need to be tested again. But this is not the case. We are not promoting banning separate abilities on every Pokemon. We are referring to ban only such Broken Abilities in OU, such as SV Chomp which was banned in 4th gen because it allowed a one turn hax to effect the outcome of the match. Yes I know hax is a part of the game, but it doesn't mean we should be abusing it.

The issue is that those abilities aren't broken by OU standards. Drought isn't broken because SR skrews up Ninetails and Chlorophyll sweepers aren't as powerful as the Swift Swim sweepers were. SV Chomp, actually all Garchomp, was banned in Gen IV because it was overcentralizing and lacked true counters. Besides, banning in Gen 5 has NOTHING to do with how banning in Gen IV occured.

'Yes but that's making it like 4th gen. This is 5th gen deal with it'
When something is broken it should be banned. Full Stop. No ifs and buts.

I hope that's not how you view people against banning Garchomp. This is 5th gen, Garchomp has counters now and isn't broken anymore esp with Lati@s runnin around.

"Also, you act like by carrying 2 sun checks, you now only have 4 members left. Guess what? Those 2 checks can do other things besides checking sun. There's no rule that says "Sun checks may do absolutely nothing besides check sun." You still have 6 members."

True statement. A check to sun is typically a check to other pokemon as well or at least good in support.

We have to carry counter checks for sun/rain/ sand(excadrill or chomp) do you get how ridiculous this is sounding? There is nothing that counters all of the above. Unless you count using a weather team yourself. This is called over centralizing. Yes these checks do other things aswell, but to create an 'effective' team which counters everything broken, you are limited to a very narrow choice, with only one or two spaces on you're team left.

Weather was 40-something percent of the metagame in April. No, it's not ridiculous to expect a cmopetitive pokemon player to counter/check popular threats in the metagame, it's playing the metagame. And to saying nothing counter the above, there are 643 pokemon, you CAN'T counter them all. Weather is centralising, but counting the fact that (WARNING:Rounded Figures) 20 odd percent is based on a single weather (sand) and all weathers play differently it's not over-centralising, it's good and therefore became popular. Btw, "Effective teams" counter/check popular threats in the meta while covering their bases. It might be a narrow choice, but if you can't beat a weather in OU you might as well not play or get really used to ragequitting.

Mario With Lasers: "I am not saying that Drizzle per se is broken (I'd agree on banning Thundurus/Starmie before Drizzle...)"

Nuff said.


To conclude this argument I would like to point out that weather effects the whole of the metagame in a negative way. It's not like one Pokemon which in itself is broken such as shadow tag Chandelure. Weather (drizzle/drought) mixes up stab boosts and weaknesses of a large majority of Pokemon. It allows Pokemon 'X' to live Pokemon 'Y's' attack. It allows 'Y' to kill pokemon 'Z'. Without permanent weather 'Mario With Lasers' things such as 'Thundusus/Starmie' wouldn't need to be banned. Like KingClown has said 'why isn't weather being blamed for over centralizing?'

Weather has been blamed for being over-centralizing. I did it a few times on this thread. But weather itself is a strategy you can't ban almost entirely because of Hail never being broken and Sand being managable, and Rain/Sun having prominent threats that you can't pick out and say is broken. Having a combination of those pokemon makes weather good and that isn't broken, it's synergy.

Now if anyone would like to falter my argument instead of pinpointing a weaker argument to counter, I would be happy to listen to you.

Your welcome?
 
ITT: SlimMan ftw
I'd also like to add about ability bans that an ability should only be banned when it not only is broken on everything that has it but is also broken on everything that could ever get it.

EXAMPLE: Moody. Moody was broken on Bidoof, which is literally one of the worst pokemon. Therefore, it's broken on everything but Shedinja. Shedinja is irrelevant. Don't bring it up.

Magikarp.

We should only consider ability bans if everything (or at least "everything relevant") that gets it is broken with it. There's no point in theorymonning how would pokémon X fare if it had the ability, if it can't get it and won't get it.
 
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