np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Blackdragonking]

Wait, weren't we having a HUGE debate a while back about how Blaziken as a whole was banned because one of its abilities breaks it hard, even if the other doesn't?

If Sand Veil Garchomp is considered broken, logic would dictate a complete Garchomp ban instead of a Sand Veil or Sand Veil Garchomp ban, wouldn't it? Considering Alderon's proposal as a temporary one-time thing, there isn't any precedent to giving Garchomp any kind of special treatment just because it's not the fastest dragon in OU anymore. If, like Blaziken, Sand Veil makes Garchomp broken, the problem is Garchomp and not Sand Veil. That's how we've been justifying a complete Blaziken ban, so I don't see how Chomp's situation is particularly different.

Also, I'd consider Azumarill and certain Infernape sets (such as its Mach-Punching set) to be able to check/counter/revenge kill Excadrill. Toxicroak's Vacuum Wave does a real number on it, too, but most Toxicroak sets I've seen are physical and most of Excadrill's buddies murder Toxicroak in a fight.

 

[AlphaSpade]

If Sand Veil Garchomp is considered broken, logic would dictate a complete Garchomp ban instead of a Sand Veil or Sand Veil Garchomp ban, wouldn't it? Considering Alderon's proposal as a temporary one-time thing, there isn't any precedent to giving Garchomp any kind of special treatment just because it's not the fastest dragon in OU anymore. If, like Blaziken, Sand Veil makes Garchomp broken, the problem is Garchomp and not Sand Veil. That's how we've been justifying a complete Blaziken ban, so I don't see how Chomp's situation is particularly different.

Completely agreeing with this, seeing as a Sand Veil ban would essentially delete Garchomp and friends from every metagame if it was added to Evasion Clause.

 

[SlimMan]

Warning, very long post of responses to arguments (albeit, seemingly unproductive ones) ahead.

What? Having a Skarmory on your team in this metagame forces you to make a lot of concessions, since you give things like Gliscor, Thunderus, Heatran, and Rotom-W a free switch. Defensively, you'd need at least two parts of a FWG core and a decent way of dealing with Thunderus -- which is kind of hard. Latias is an alternative possibility for a defensive pokemon, but playing with Latias in the early to midgame against Tyranitar is always a big risk. Moreover, unless you're willing to run Shed Shell, which is an awful idea, you can't really pair it with Nattorei or your team is too weak to Magnezone. The end result of all this is that good teams with Skarmory almost invariably rely on Skarmory to handle threats like Gengar, phaze Reuniclus in a pinch, to Brave Bird Celebi, to take the occasion Draco Meteor, etc. All of which require SpD. Moreover, without SpD, Garchomp can just run Fire Blast to get through it. Since most teams with Skarmory rely on it to handle Garchomp, it needs at least some SpD to be able to later Roost at vulnerabilities (Nattorei, Bronzong) in the opponent's team. That's why, even though Skarmory is by miles the best answer to SubChomp and an okay check to Excadrill and Reuniclus, exceedingly few people use it at the top of the ladder: compensating for the massive hole it puts in your team costs too much. Because of that, Skarmory is very often weak and, outside of full stall, rarely physically defensive. It's the same reason Skarm was always specially defensive last gen, only exacerbated. I just finished laddering to reqs a few minutes ago and I only saw 3 other players using Skarmory, as a metric. To put that into context, I saw more players using Ononokusu than Skarmory. All of them on teams more defensively-based than mine, at least one of which with significant special investment. I don't think Careful Skarmorys have any business in this metagame, but I think that, optimally, the EVs should be split between SpD and Def in some form. If you're at the top of the ladder with a fully physical Skarmory, I guess you're a better player than I am? I can vaguely see it being possible if paired with Celebi, but I can't see it being as effective as specially defensive variant.

This is a quality analysis of Skarm right now, as I believe Meru said, but I think we're arguing about two different things. I was talking about a situation in which it's just Skarm for Excadrill, which is obviously not the case in the real metagame. I was arguing that if a Skarm wanted to counter an Excadrill, it could easily. It would seem I didn't make that clear, so sorry for the misunderstanding. I guess we're both right, sorta.

Those calcs all assume that Skarmory is at full health. And, I mean, it really isn't. Skarmory has to switch into Garchomp and Ononokusu and is often the main switch against Landros. It really needs to set up against Jirachi and Ferrothorn too, leaving it open to paralysis. I mean, assuming you do phaze Excadrill the first time, you're going to have to look closely for an opportunity to heal the 30%. And, if you don't, you're risking that it SDs a second time every time you Roost or Brave Bird, meaning you'll be even weaker -- if not dead -- by the time you actually get it out of there.

Okay, again we have the miscommunication, but your first statement is pretty... biased (not the best word to use, but w/e). You say I'm assuming Skarm is at full health. You're assuming that Excadrill's Balloon hasn't broken from when it switched in. You're assuming that it came in on a non-attack, on something it could force out, and you left out the recoil it takes from LO.

Secondly, Skarm can Roost on everything you just listed, but they may Paralyze it in return. Being fully paralyzed at the wrong time may cause Excadrill to beat Skarm. But then that's Exca's teammates helping him take down a threat to his sweep. It's not Excadrill doing all the work.

One last thing, Balloon Excadrill using a +4 Rock Slide can has to get very high damage rolls to 2HKO max/max Skarm. So Skarm could still WW it out of there once it SD's again.

And, again, what? In a metagame where the number one pokemon is a grass/steel type without Rapid Spin that learns Spikes, Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, and Stealth Rock, Brave Bird is the clearly superior option? In a metagame where two of the most important switches into Skarmory, Gliscor and Thunderus, set up +2 Atk, Brave Bird is the superior option? I mean, Brave Bird definitely has its uses outside of Excadrill, like hitting Celebi or breaking Heatran's Balloon or just hitting stuff hard, but my point is that Taunt is nonexistent when it should be a serious, if not more prevalent, option.

I haven't looked at the current OU list, but probably the only things that typically use no attacks are Deoxys-E and Whimsicott. "In a metagame where there are Taunts with Priority and Taunts from 504 Speed, no attacks is the clearly superior option?"

I agree that Taunt has its uses, but Skarm needs BB for the absurdly common Grass and Fighting types in this meta, CB Scizor, most Tornadus, Landorus, some Garchomp and other things, if you'd like to hear them. I don't think I said BB was way better (did I? I don't remember...), but I hold to my point that Taunt is not cleary better at all. Especially not just for Ferrothor, as you seem to be implying.

I don't call 24% when I can SD or Rock Slide for 30-40% retaliation, mostly... My point isn't that Skarmory doesn't check Excadrill, or that it isn't good against Excadrill, it's that with a small amount of hax and proper support Excadrill just kills it. In the broader perspective of the metagame and the play, Skarmory's a great check to Excadrill; but, it's far from a counter. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just think that Rock Slide flinches beating Skarmory is a really valid point.

Well, given that Skarm can heal off the 30-40% and Excadrill can't I'd call it retaliation. But that's more a matter of personal definition.

Well of course Excadrill can beat Skarm with team support (or hax). That's what you do with a sweeper, have teammates beat whatever beats them. Teammates have no bearing on how Skarm fares against Excadrill itself. Also, Balloon Excadrill might not even 2HKO Skarm with a flinch or crit. Given that it's haxing Skarm, it could get haxed with low damage rolls. But that's beside the point.

I know you're not a fighter, and your points about the metagame itself are all valid. But I don't think you can deny that Skarm does beat Excadrill when tailored to do so, and Excadrill would have to be pretty haxy in both flinch/crit and damage rolls in order to beat Skarm, enough so that I'd safely call Skarm a counter.

Excadrill has higher stats than rain abusers, plus it is normally running SD which it can get in if the switch is good, which if anyone with any sense is using it, it will be. Meaning that actually, it gets a +2 boost on it's moves, STAB or not, rather than the +1 boost that rain simulates on only STAB boosts, plus the stats mean that it's damage is higher as standard anyway. Checks don't matter, kyogre has checks, we need counters, feel free to name them and explain them, and I'll feel free to shoot them down.

News Flash: Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Qwilfish all had SD too. Kabutops and Ludicolo were actually considered to be broken at the time. So basically, you can't use SD as any kind of argument here. Plus, Excadrill commonly uses a Balloon, and Ludi/Kabu commonly used LO, meaning that they would've still commonly had a higher damage output.

When you say checks don't matter, you literally help prove me right. Because you're proving that you know very little. In our history, things without counters have almost always been banned, but that's a correlation, not an actual rule (law, whatever word fits best here).
Suppose that Conkeldurr has a move which OHKOes every single Pokemon without fail. However, suppose Conkeldurr also has 1 Speed, and using a move before it will KO the Conkeldurr instead. It has no counters, because nothing can safely switch in. However, it's not broken because literally every single Pokemon has a move and is faster, allowing them to beat it every time in every circumstance.
That is an example of how checks can prevent something with no counters from being broken.

Now for some Excadrill counters: Gliscor, Skarmory, Conkeldurr (if it runs lots of bulk), Slowbro (I think but I haven't done calcs), Tangrowth, Rotom-W.
Now for some Excadrill checks: Bronzong, Hippowdon, Azumarill, about a dozen Balloon Pokemon, hell even Gyarados and Dragonite.
Do you want me to keep going?

When you say "and I'll feel free to shoot them down", do you have any idea how much of an ass you sound like? Granted, I can be one too, but you either lack any realistic self-image, or you're as trashy as you accuse others of being. Because you seem like such a douche, I'll be one too for the rest of this post.

SV had a large impact in the banning of chomp in gen 4, not as large as the fact it was a badass that we couldn't handle, granted, but it was still there. Even if you don't agree that SV makes a big difference, I suggest that brightpowder becomes unbanned to save hypocrisy, although admittedly if you have both then hax will end up being when someone actually manages to hit the thing as it seems more unlikely than the miss at that stage.

This is mostly true. Too bad it has absolutely no relevance to what I said. o.0

I said that Chomp was banned, and not SV Chomp. That is a fact. Discuss that fact or don't bother responding.

Try to remember you're only allowed 6 pokemon, and that every weather abuser has a team of things around it, you're not countering threats, you're countering threats and the threats to those threats (try and keep up with the overuse of one word). Quick maths for you, 4 weathers, we won't argue over how effective each is, we'll just say we have to counter them all,

Your first sentence made no sense. Why would you be countering the threats to your opponent's threats? And read what I quoted, because you did say that.

Also, we don't have to counter them all, we have to counter, or check, or simply play around, all 4 weathers. There is a huge difference. But let's continue on...

on each weather team there is an abuser, that abuser requires synergy with the rest of the team, but the team has to counter the other weather teams, so that's the abuser of your weather, plus your weather starter, plus the counters to the other weathers and their counters to you team plus the inclusion of non-weather teams

So you just listed the struggles a weather team faces? Good job!!!
I singled this out because its worded so poorly, I didn't want to mix it up with the rest of your post.

Meaning you need a counter for every whether, their counter to you, plus counters to other threats meaning you need 8 pokemon plus counters to anything non-weather you haven't covered.

You're continuing to list challenges of weather teams, but I'll not focus on that now.

You don't need a counter for every weather, you only need a check or counter or way to play around it (@myself: repetitive much?). And even if you did need a counter for each, you wouldn't need 8 Pokemon. Has it ever occurred to you that a Pokemon can do more than one thing? They're very good at multi-tasking like that.

Come to me with a valid team of 9 pokemon and I'll encourage your support, maybe even call you god. Granted 1 pokemon could cover more than one spot but there aren't many, and then we have to discuss overcentralsation, which without offense, considering the lack of backup to your previous arguments, I don't have time for.

You want a valid team of nine Pokemon? Okay. Look at the top 50, top 100, top 200 players on the Smogon leaderboard. They only use 6.
Now, I'm waiting to be encouraged and apotheosized.

OVercentralization always occurs, because people will use what's the best. Read Haunter's signature if you want to know what I mean.

@"lack of back-up and I don't have time":
lulz, Physician heal thyself.

Anytime you want to contradict yourself more, feel free. A way of dealing with something is called a counter, hence if you have a counter you have a way of dealing with it and vice versa you can't have one without the other like you just suggested

.
Now come sit on Sanat's lap and let me teach you what a counter is. After all, it's a good thing for you to know when you enter this thread.

A counter is a Pokemon who can switch in on any of a certain threat's moves with no danger to themselves. Then, they can immediately KO the threat, or force it to switch out.

A check is a Pokemon who can switch in on some of a certain threat's moves, or on a revenge-kill. Once it gets in, it can immediately KO the threat, or force it to switch out.

So, sorry that your insult failed, but now that you're educated let's move on with your post.

Checking a weather gets you killed in a nasty war of switching which takes entry hazards and all day. Having more options for each sweeper simply backs up Rosey's point that there are no simple counters for them.

Now let's put our newfound knowledge of checks and counters to use. When you switch in a check to a weather sweeper, they have to switch too, meaning that they take entry hazards as well. Or, they might not even have hazards up, in which case you don't even take entry hazard damage at all.

Your second sentence has no apparent meaning, so I'm unable to respond to it.

A minute ago you were saying how rain and sun boost stab moves by 50%, that would cancel out the defence boosts of eviolite (in simple terms I know it's not exact like that) and therefore you would have OU vs NFE, feel free to ladder with an NFE team, tell me how that works out for you.

Yes it does cancel Eviolite out, but given that your statement has absolutely no relevance to "it lets X survive Y's attack", then it's pointless in this argument. Sorry, your snarkiness didn't work, try again next time.

As for focus sash, the other weathers (sand and hail) remove the sash at the end, and for the other weathers, in order for your sashed masterpiece to counter it it need to switch in and even if none of this were true let's take your attitude to the situation, there's this great little move called stelth rock and what it does you would never believe, it does damage on the switch so you don't have 100% health and you focus sash is useless.

I just explained why this doesn't matter. Read right up there^^^.

Congratulations irrelevance, these items are just as easily place upon the weather abusers, although granted they don't need them because the weather does their effect for them anyway. Sand rush or swift swim > choice scarf, rain or sun boost is similar to choie band/specs and as for life orb, that's outdone by sand strength never mind the rest.

Congratulations irrelevance, we were discussing what "allows Y to kill Z" and therefore your response is pointless.

Plus these weathers don't have drawbacks such as 10% HP drops or only being allowed to use one move before having to switch allowing excadrill to SD and destroy your team.

If Excadrill can immediately sweep you the very first time it comes in, then you either let your Excadrill counter/check die before you should have, or you were up against someone better than you, or they haxed you earlier in the game and then it isn't related to Excadrill anyway. Or you don't have any way to beat Excadrill, which would probably mean you're no good to begin with.

Drizzle was banned due to swift swimmers and the boosts moves got from it, of which starmie and thundurus were not top of the list, be it that they were high up.

Well, this has nothing to do with this metagme, which is what we were talking about, so... fail.

Scizor and heatran were in roughly 60% of games between them, weather is in over 90%, where's the line?

The total, combined usage of Snover, Vulpix, Hippopotas, Abomasnow, Ninetales, Politoed, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar is about 44.5%.
Less than half of what you said.
Nice lie, but no.

Also, in case you didn't want to take this from someone with almost no posts, I'd like to point out that I don't post here because of people like you who have arguments backed by nothing, granted I've hardly backed my arguments up, but I thought I'd follow the norm.

Where the hell did I ever mention post count? Nowhere. Your personal attack is, unfortunately, not going to work.
Can I sig your thing about arguments backed up by nothing, because if you actually read the posts, you might realize that very few people here make completely baseless claims. It's the quality of what they use to back up their arguments. And yours is very low.

You also tend not to like my attitude towards people who make no sense and my 'taking no prisoners' approach to debate. Hopefully I managed not to swear through this as I believe this is supposed to be child friendly. Would explain why several of you act like children anyway.

I don't know how you would know my attitude toward debate, given that we've never spoken before. Oh wait, you don't know because you're actually wrong.
Oh, you managed not to swear!!! You obviously have far less classlessness than anyone would otherwise believe.

We act like children? LOL
If you noticed how much of a dick I was, then you noticed yourself, fool. Many of us act like this because it's the only way of talking that your kind will actually understand.

/asshole-ness

 

[ZoroarkFTW]

Uh... wouldn't a Scarfed Typhlosion also take care of Skarmory with a full HP Eruption?

 

[Pocket]

I feel like Cresselia can really work to stop the top threats right now.

I am thinking Ice Beam, Psycho SHift, Rest, and Sleep Talk @ Flame Orb. Max HP / Max Defense, Bold Nature. May want to invest in SAtk to 2HKO Garchomp or OHKO Landorus, but don't want to go too overboard.

Yes, Cresselia is overshadowed by Reunicles and Slowbro as the bulky Psychic type, but Cresselia still possesses far superior defensive stats. And Levitate helps a lot, allowing Cresselia to evade powerful STAB EQs from Garchomp, Landorus, Excadrill, and Gliscor. It has Psycho Shift to then pass its Burn or Slp Status on the opponent.

SubChomp may be tricky against this particular Cresselia moveset, because it can burn-stall Cresselia with Sub, but without Outrage it really lacks the punch. Excadrill usually packs Frustration to deal with the popular Gliscor and will be promptly burned or at least be forced out. Gliscor can't do shit with Ice Fang.

Not even defensive monsters would enjoy switching into Cresselia in fear of getting burned, such as Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Skarmory, Jirachi, and Quagsire. Conkeldurr, Scrafty, Reunicles, and Slowbro may be the only exception, but they may get slept.

Even without Special Defense investment, I believe Cresselia may be able to even take on special threats, such as Thundurus, Tornados, Dragonite, and Latios

Again, this is only one set that Cresselia can use. Ice Beam + Reflect would hard-wall the same physical threats, but it would probably be a free switch-in for Spikers. It has Thunder Wave; it has Lunar Dance; it has Trick Room; it has Flash (lol, yea, but it has the bulk to pull it off).

 

[ssbbm]

Uh... wouldn't a Scarfed Typhlosion also take care of Skarmory with a full HP Eruption?

Skarmory can switch, and Typhlosion is SR weak.

I feel like Cresselia can really work to stop the top threats right now.

I am thinking Ice Beam, Psycho SHift, Rest, and Sleep Talk @ Flame Orb. Max HP / Max Defense, Bold Nature. May want to invest in SAtk to 2HKO Garchomp or OHKO Landorus, but don't want to go too overboard.

If Cresselia's only attacking move is Ice Beam, then even Fighting types beat you -___-. And Tyranitar and Scizor are super common, not to mention that Ferrothorn makes you set-up bait SOOO badly.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, and also Water Pokemon and Fire Pokemon from Drizzle and Drought teams could be a huge problem...

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

If Cresselia's only attacking move is Ice Beam, then even Fighting types beat you -___-. And Tyranitar and Scizor are super common, not to mention that Ferrothorn makes you set-up bait SOOO badly.

How? You could always thunderwave them, and stall them out. Of course you might have a bit of a problem with Konkeldurr, but then again you can just switch to a counter, isn't that what the rest of your team is for?

 

[chrisrandom9]

How? You could always thunderwave them, and stall them out. Of course you might have a bit of a problem with Konkeldurr, but then again you can just switch to a counter, isn't that what the rest of your team is for?

They're talking about a specific set, which doesn't have twave

 

[SlimMan]

Sorry, I was combining two separate arguments together and should have been clearer about the points I was trying to get across. Yes, Sand is not the same as Sun/Rain. ‘As KingClown has roughly said, sandstorm itself isn't broken, it does not mess around with stab boosts and weaknesses like drizzle and drought’. Yes I know the use of sandstorm is for defensive purposes i.e the sp.def boost on rock types, however damage calculation wise this does not affect the metagame nearly as much rain/sun, being that Tyranitar (and maybe terrakion) are the only common rock type in OU. However, there are abilities within sand that I believe are broken i.e Sand Rush Excadrill and SV Chomp. ‘(which is just like drizzle + swift swim btw).’ Yes you are right; I’ve made an error here. Drizzle + swift swim is not the exact same as sandstorm in the sense that it doesn’t mess around with stab boosts and weaknesses. I meant it’s the same as in the sense that it gives a permanent speed boost (to sand rush) but maybe I should have been more clear.

Okay, now this makes a lot more sense, now that I know you were comparing the speed boosts they both give. There's not much else to respond to here, but thank you for the clarification. :)

Sand Rush Excadrill has ‘counters’ but not many. Let’s view the OU counters for Excadrill: Skarm, Gliscor, Hippodown, Breeloom and Roobushin.

1. Yes Skarmory counters Excadrill but honestly, what can Skarm do to it, Brave Bird, Whirlwind? There is a whole argument about this further up the page. But this is assuming that you wouldn’t switch Excadrill out into a more appropriate Pokemon to attack =S

2. A common item used on Dory is Balloon. A Dory after one SD fails to 2KO max HP/DEF Gliscor (other sets will be 2KOd - thanx to ballon). However, looking at statics, Rock Slide has a 30% chance to flinch, which can be relied on twice because of balloon and, 227 Atk vs 156 Def & 361 HP (100 Base Power): 314 - 372 (86.98% - 103.05%) - Average: 342/ 94.74%.This means that on average (including SR damage) Dory can live an Earthquake from a Wall Gliscor. In conclusion, I’m not saying that any argument should be solely based on hax because anything can beat anything with hax, I’m just stating the fact that just one flinch (x2) with rock slide allows Dory to beat probably its toughest counter, and if Gliscor had more than 10% damage already done to it, it would be possible to 2KO Wall Gliscor.

3. Excadrill will always be able to 2KO max HP/Def Hippo after one SD, and if it holds balloon as item it can for sure.

4. On average Excadrill can live a mach punch from max att breeloom and on average Dory can OHKO it back with Return. (Includes SR damage)

5. A Max Att/HP Roobushin at 416 Att, using a stab mach punch with iron fist ability on Dory, will NEVER OHKO it. (266 - Average/ 73.68%) However, a Dory after one SD OHKO it back on average with Earthquake.

Well, i disagree with your list of counters, because like you said, Hippowdon can lose and Breloom with Technician is still unreleased.

Anyway, Skarm does beat Excadrill when you want it to, no two ways around that. Of course, you're right that any competent Excadrill user will have multiple ways to annihilate a Skarm, but that's the team doing it, not Excadrill.

Actually a +2 Adamant LO Rock Slide will not 2HKO Gliscor, factoring in Poison Heal. Even without Poison Heal, it will have to get maximum damage rolls each time to 2HKO. And this is assuming the standard EV spread, not Max HP/Max Def. And if Excadrill has a Balloon, then it can't even 3HKO, factoring in Poison Heal, and low damage rolls won't even 4HKO, factoring in Poison Heal.
Also, Excadrill has less than a 50% to flinch Gliscor, assuming it uses Rock Slide twice in a row. And a flinch won't even matter if Excadrill is not at +2 yet. So no, a flinch cannot be relied on (even though it may cause Gliscor to lose occasionally). A flinch from Balloon Excadrill probably won't even mean the end for Gliscor, because Poison Heal normally lets it live the next hit anyway. And if we're assuming that Excadrill gets lucky, why not assume that Gliscor gets lucky and gets a high damage roll, KOing the Excadrill (with SR)?
Of course Excadrill can beat Gliscor with enough prior damage. It's like the hax argument, "anything beat anything with enough ___". Nonetheless, you're right that Gliscor can't be too beat up.
Now I agree with you that Excadrill can beat Gliscor, but it has to be very lucky, like I was saying with Skarmory, and on average, the luck will go both ways.

I already discussed Hippo and Breloom, so no need there. Conkeldurr will lose if it doesn't invest heavily in bulk (which it rarely does, but it can), so it's out, too (unless it haxes the Excadrill on damage rolls/crits). But if you read in my responses to Requiem[9], you'll see that I listed some other counters and some checks.

You're right in most of what you say, but you don't "tell the whole story" (ex: how could you have forgotten Rotom-W?).

I forgot Smogon does not agree with complex bans, but I was stating that in my opinion Sand Veil Chomp (Rough Skin too if necessary) needs to be banned. Whoever said ‘Chomp is OU because it has checks now such as Latios’ my point was that sand veil (hax abuse) can allow Chomp to counter his checks, I’m fairly sure this was the main reason he was banned 4th gen too, as he had counters such as Latias and Skarmory back then as well (which could still be overcome by hax). Plus one invasion in SS is the equivalent to 100% moves now having the same accuracy as Thunder. My point is ‘it allow a one turn hax to effect the outcome of the match. Yes I know hax is a part of the game, but it doesn't mean we should be abusing it.’

Well,some of Smogon agrees with complex bans. But I think it's a majority that does not. I personally, think we should be avoiding them.

Sand Veil doesn't "allow Chomp to counter his checks", it allows him to hax his way past them. I know what you meant, it's just that your wording was off. Furthermore, it puts 100% moves at the same accuracy as Stone Edge, which is much better than Thunder. Just a minor mistake, but still...

I understand if you want to ban Chomp (or Sand Veil Chomp, though I heartily think it'd be a bad idea and the wrong approach). But a Chomp discussion is not the one we're having (I don't think...) and so I'll let that matter be.

Within Rain there is Hurracine/Thunder/Water stab abuse which does not have the same checks. Within Sun there are Fire/Grass sweepers which do not have the same checks and nor does it have the same checks as the rain sweepers. Additionally, the checks for Excadrill/Chomp are not the same as the above. Yes every team should be based on common OU checks, but with weather it just becomes too problematic; one team can only check so many.

It sounds to me like your main complaint with weather is that there's so much to check that it puts (in your opinion) an unbearable burden on teams and therefore a team is unable to beat it all. Am I right in assuming that?

Well, as new Pokemon are introduced, there will come a point at which no team can check everything, and even without weather we're probably there now. The thing is that a team can only check so much, so banning weather would only keep us in the amount that it can check. It might delay the problem, but there's no point in a ban just to put off a future problem.

I disagree with you that it's a ridiculous amount to deal with, that it's too much, but I'd like to hear more on exactly what you dislike so I may more accurately discuss it with you.

And on the concept of teams, any good weather team (whether it be rain/sun or sandstorm) is prepared for all of the counters and checks for it and for other weather, and for other things in the Metagame, meaning that in order to have one team counter all of potentially 5 or 6 teams that it has in one, it would be insane.

But weather has the same problem as non-weather. It has to deal with everything. There are 5 or 6 incarnations, as you said, of each team because very few teams can cope with everything.
Besides, why is it that weather is able to prepare for so much, but non-weather isn't? You make it sound like weather teams have more members than non-weather teams.

The multiple variations of weather are evidence that they don't beat everything either. Teams must either be ridiculously good, or pick and choose what they have slight weaknesses to.
ONe last thing, you don't have to counter 5 or 6 teams, you have to play around/check/counters 5 or 6 different teams. Big difference.

And to the guy who thought I wanted Starmie and Thundurus banned. For the record I'm not looking to ban them (and I can think of worse weather abusers), however I was just using the examples from the person I previously quoted.

Not aimed at me, so......

I see that you have managed to reply before me T-RaT, and I completely agree with what you have said.

*facepalm*



edit: @ Pocket
yeah, Cresselia is a bulky mofo, being very similar in bulk to Porygon2 with Eviolite (they have near identical bulk). Although Porygon2 has better general recovery, Cresselia has an arguably better typing (Fighting resist), and has better recovery on a dedicated Sun team. Porygon2 has better Sp Atk to actually hurt stuff that it walls, and it has better coverage. Cresselia, on the other hand, can spread more status (burn/sleep, which P2 can't) and has an immunity to Ground, which is better than a Ghost immunity. BUt Porygon2 has Trace.

I can see why Cresselia is UU, because it would appear that Porygon2 has the advantage. But Cresselia can do things that P2 can't and when you have need of Cress' niche, it will very rarely fail to disappoint. It's a good 'mon, through and through, just not general enough to be a standard.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

The people are saying that "Why should Blaziken/Garchomp get any special treatment?" Well, Blaziken was the very first Pokémon to get sent to Ubers because of one of its multiple abilities, which cannot be changed. All other Ubers so far have had multiple abilities, and the one that was broken because of its ability (Wynaut/Wobb) had no other ability at the time, and is not Uber now. Iff Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil, then banning Sand Veil Garchomp (to Ubers) AND Speed Boost Blaziken, then technically there would not be any special treatment going on, but it'd take a lot to get that to even happen at all.

Also, while I'm not arguing with Speed Boost Blaziken being broken, I'm a bit confused about the people saying this saying that it has Protect/Swords Dance/Shadow Claw/Flare Blitz/Hi Jump Kick. Chandelure is immune to the latter two, but running Shadow Claw to beat Chandelure requires sacrificing one of the other moves. So I was wondering why Chandelure was never brought up while Blaziken was being discussed. Just one Chandelure and one Slowbro doesn't stop Blaziken from being broken, of course, but Chandelure was never even mentioned. At all.

 

[Nkululeko]

Also, while I'm not arguing with Speed Boost Blaziken being broken, I'm a bit confused about the people saying this saying that it has Protect/Swords Dance/Shadow Claw/Flare Blitz/Hi Jump Kick. Chandelure is immune to the latter two, but running Shadow Claw to beat Chandelure requires sacrificing one of the other moves. So I was wondering why Chandelure was never brought up while Blaziken was being discussed. Just one Chandelure and one Slowbro doesn't stop Blaziken from being broken, of course, but Chandelure was never even mentioned. At all.

Chandelure could counter Blaziken if it didn't have Stone Edge/Shadow Claw but people didn't want to use Chandelure

 

[133k]

The people are saying that "Why should Blaziken/Garchomp get any special treatment?" Well, Blaziken was the very first Pokémon to get sent to Ubers because of one of its multiple abilities, which cannot be changed. All other Ubers so far have had multiple abilities, and the one that was broken because of its ability (Wynaut/Wobb) had no other ability at the time, and is not Uber now. Iff Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil, then banning Sand Veil Garchomp (to Ubers) AND Speed Boost Blaziken, then technically there would not be any special treatment going on, but it'd take a lot to get that to even happen at all.

I'm a little confused here... Both Blaze AND Speed Boost Blaziken were banned; if only Sand Veil Chomp was banned, wouldn't that be "special treatment"? Maybe I'm just reading this wrong, so if somebody could explain...

@Nkululeko

That makes little to no sense; saying it doesn't counter it because people don't want to use it? (Again, could be reading this wrong...) And if Blaziken were to use one of those, it'd have to give up one of the afore mentioned moves, leaving more vulnerable or unable to set up in any way shape or form.

 

[Nkululeko]

I'm a little confused here... Both Blaze AND Speed Boost Blaziken were banned; if only Sand Veil Chomp was banned, wouldn't that be "special treatment"? Maybe I'm just reading this wrong, so if somebody could explain...

Consider the source. This is the same person who made a thread called "Tiering By Abilities," you're reading it right lol.

 

[Acritter]

The people are saying that "Why should Blaziken/Garchomp get any special treatment?" Well, Blaziken was the very first Pokémon to get sent to Ubers because of one of its multiple abilities, which cannot be changed. All other Ubers so far have had multiple abilities, and the one that was broken because of its ability (Wynaut/Wobb) had no other ability at the time, and is not Uber now. Iff Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil, then banning Sand Veil Garchomp (to Ubers) AND Speed Boost Blaziken, then technically there would not be any special treatment going on, but it'd take a lot to get that to even happen at all.

Also, while I'm not arguing with Speed Boost Blaziken being broken, I'm a bit confused about the people saying this saying that it has Protect/Swords Dance/Shadow Claw/Flare Blitz/Hi Jump Kick. Chandelure is immune to the latter two, but running Shadow Claw to beat Chandelure requires sacrificing one of the other moves. So I was wondering why Chandelure was never brought up while Blaziken was being discussed. Just one Chandelure and one Slowbro doesn't stop Blaziken from being broken, of course, but Chandelure was never even mentioned. At all.

Chandelure was mentioned pretty often. The problem is that you don't know what your opponent is running until it's too late, so what seems like a super smart and good switch turns out to be a free +2 speed for the Blaziken. If Blaziken only had, say, Protect/SD/Flare Blitz/HJK, it might have been this side of broken. However, it could easily run other attacking options that nullified some of its counters, and you simply couldn't know what it was running until it was too late. Remember from last gen, Salamence got banned because it was so versatile that you couldn't know if you were facing a wallbreaker, a sweeper, a bulky offensive 'mon, or even a Choiced heavy hitter until it had a good shot at OHKOing one of your 'mons.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

In laymans terms, if you banned Blaziken totally under the idea that speed boost is broken, then if Garchomp with sand veil was also broken, then you also must ban the whole thing too.

Although some might point out that sand veil is "uncompetitive" not broken, and we get into that mess again.

 

[Nkululeko]

Chandelure could counter Blaziken if it didn't have Stone Edge/Shadow Claw but people didn't want to use Chandelure

@Nkululeko

That makes little to no sense; saying it doesn't counter it because people don't want to use it? (Again, could be reading this wrong...) And if Blaziken were to use one of those, it'd have to give up one of the afore mentioned moves, leaving more vulnerable or unable to set up in any way shape or form.

I said it could counter it but people weren't using Chandelure.

In laymans terms, if you banned Blaziken totally under the idea that speed boost is broken,

Blaziken with Speed Boost, it's stats, and its movepool was broken. Yanmega is proof that Speed Boost isn't broken.

then if Garchomp with sand veil was also broken, then you also must ban the whole thing too.

Although some might point out that sand veil is "uncompetitive" not broken, and we get into that mess again.

Let's not, only one pokemon was cited as being "uncompetitive" with Sand Veil, and it became obvious that some people started saying uncompetitive as a way to soft ban Garchomp

 

[133k]

In laymans terms, if you banned Blaziken totally under the idea that speed boost is broken, then if Garchomp with sand veil was also broken, then you also must ban the whole thing too.

Although some might point out that sand veil is "uncompetitive" not broken, and we get into that mess again.

I got it. I'm assuming that Rough Skin Chomp is eventually released, hence the confusion.

@Nkululeko

I see; this is what I saw:

Chandelure could counter Blaziken if it didn't have Stone Edge/Shadow Claw but people didn't want to use Chandelure

Implying that it could counter it, but it doesn't.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Let's not, only one pokemon was cited as being "uncompetitive" with Sand Veil, and it became obvious that some people started saying uncompetitive as a way to soft ban Garchomp

I actually have no problem soft banning Garchomp, but most people that go for the uncompetitiveness wish to ban sand veil + sandstorm on all pokemon. Which to be honest, I think is a little overdone. I find it odd how be agree on something with 2 totally polar beliefs.

I would actually love to have a good debate about tiering abilties, but everytimes its brought up, I end up having to rehash the same points, over and over again, to new people coming in.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Ok guys, so how about we try not to talk about Garchomp, Blaziken or tiering philosophy and talk only about the metagame per se for a whole day?

 

[Cuiv]

Wait, weren't we having a HUGE debate a while back about how Blaziken as a whole was banned because one of its abilities breaks it hard, even if the other doesn't?

If Sand Veil Garchomp is considered broken, logic would dictate a complete Garchomp ban instead of a Sand Veil or Sand Veil Garchomp ban, wouldn't it? Considering Alderon's proposal as a temporary one-time thing, there isn't any precedent to giving Garchomp any kind of special treatment just because it's not the fastest dragon in OU anymore. If, like Blaziken, Sand Veil makes Garchomp broken, the problem is Garchomp and not Sand Veil. That's how we've been justifying a complete Blaziken ban, so I don't see how Chomp's situation is particularly different.

The difference, if there is one, would come on saying that the ability rather than the Pokemon is uncompetitive. Those objecting to Sand Veil aren't really saying that Garchomp is broken, they're saying that Sand Veil (and Snow Cloak) are unfair and introduce extra luck in a way that should not be permitted.

This is the difference between the Blaziken ban and the Moody ban. Moody is banned as an ability because it would be uncompetitive on pretty much any Pokemon (save those with limited movepools, like Weedle or Unown, who don't really count). Blaziken is banned rather than Speed Boost, however, because there are a large number of Pokemon (like Ninjask or Sharpedo) on which Speed Boost would not be uncompetitive.

Now, Sand Veil and Snow Cloak don't break Pokemon like Froslass or Cacturne. Still, there is an argument to be made that its introduction of unnecessary luck is uncompetitive (whether that argument has merit is a different issue), and if it is uncompetitive, it is as uncompetitive on NU Sandslash as it is on OU Garchomp and would be banned on all of them.

 

[AlphaSpade]

Even if you do go down the "uncompetitive" route, how can Sandslash and Cacturne uncompetitively break Sand Veil? The only reason it's scary as hell on Garchomp is because a miss against Chomp pretty much spells the demise of any team. Sandslash (slow and only 1 STAB) and Cacturne (Mediocre offensive STABs, slow, shitty typing) would need a lot of misses to hax their way through team. So unless your opponent is having a REALLY bad day, you're not penetrating any well built team with either pokes.

Yeah sure, Sand Veil/Snow Cloak's existence brings unnecessary luck, but as I mentioned earlier, if you banned both abilities and added them to evasion clause, you would completely erase Sandslash/Cacturne all the way back to Gen 3, and Garchomp/Froslass in Gen V and Gen IV. It's just not worth the cost. And before you bring it up, their DW abilities have a chance of sharing the same fate as ye old Azure Flute.

 

[Nkululeko]

Chandelure could counter Blaziken if it didn't have Stone Edge/Shadow Claw but people didn't want to use Chandelure

Implying that it could counter it, but it doesn't.

For the last time, I was implying that it could counter it, but people didn't want to use it. I hope I've cleared this up.

I actually have no problem soft banning Garchomp, but most people that go for the uncompetitiveness wish to ban sand veil + sandstorm on all pokemon. Which to be honest, I think is a little overdone. I find it odd how be agree on something with 2 totally polar beliefs.

I would actually love to have a good debate about tiering abilties, but everytimes its brought up, I end up having to rehash the same points, over and over again, to new people coming in.

Garchomp might be powerful, but I don't think it's overpowered. I would be fine with debating Garchomp's role in the metagame but it seems to bring up the biggest beef I have with the Aldaron Proposal, it started a series of complex ban nominations that all would serve as back doors to banning procedure (SB+Blaziken sneaks it back into OU, SV+Sandstorm bans Garchomp without needing to prove Garchomp is broken).

I don't believe in tiering by abilities either. It is literally taking away elements of a pokemon until it is no longer too strong for a tier. That's called nerfing and we only agreed on that once because Rain was ridiculously broken when it had it's sweepers. That aside, I stick to the concept of banning based on number in a dex(Deoxys is the notable exception but I don't think Garchomp merits the same).

 

[verycoolguy]

I'm pretty sure Azumarrill is a straight counter to Excadrill. Azumarrill has the bulk to take an Earthquake.

 

[Blackdragonking]

The difference, if there is one, would come on saying that the ability rather than the Pokemon is uncompetitive. Those objecting to Sand Veil aren't really saying that Garchomp is broken, they're saying that Sand Veil (and Snow Cloak) are unfair and introduce extra luck in a way that should not be permitted.

This is the difference between the Blaziken ban and the Moody ban. Moody is banned as an ability because it would be uncompetitive on pretty much any Pokemon (save those with limited movepools, like Weedle or Unown, who don't really count). Blaziken is banned rather than Speed Boost, however, because there are a large number of Pokemon (like Ninjask or Sharpedo) on which Speed Boost would not be uncompetitive.

Now, Sand Veil and Snow Cloak don't break Pokemon like Froslass or Cacturne. Still, there is an argument to be made that its introduction of unnecessary luck is uncompetitive (whether that argument has merit is a different issue), and if it is uncompetitive, it is as uncompetitive on NU Sandslash as it is on OU Garchomp and would be banned on all of them.

I disagree. I feel that treating an ability that breaks Garchomp and only Garchomp in specific circumstances as the problem instead of Garchomp itself is giving Garchomp special treatment because people don't want to look reactionary. Garchomp is no longer broken for the reasons it was broken last gen, but here it is again, getting complaints of its ability to devastate entire teams with an unfair advantage only it has access to. The reasons Garchomp is bad for the metagame have changed, but it's still Garchomp that's the problem, not bloody Cacturne and Sandslash.

Hell yeah, Speed Boost's bad for the metagame! Speed! The one stat to rule them all, am I right? And things that get this ability can, in specific circumstances, be devastating sweepers simply too fast to stop! Let's get rid of it!

Of course that's not how we did it. Ninjask, Yanmega, and Sharpedo are all fine with Speed Boost even though it gives them the ability to outspeed and defeat pokemon they normally wouldn't in the latter two's case and become a superb passer that can be a really, really annoying attacker if it wants to in the former's case. Hell, Blaziken's not broken outside of Drought teams, even if he's still seriously powerful, but he had to go because IF the sun shone brightly over him and IF he got up a Swords Dance and IF Hi Jump Kick didn't screw him over, he was unstoppable.

With the advent of Poison Heal becoing Gliscor's flagship set, and the promise that Sand Rush WILL in all likelihood become Sandslash's primary set once he as access to it, is Sand Veil SO "uncompetitive" that CACTURNE is seriously on ANYONE'S radar? Of course not. The only thing Cacturne has going for it is a moderately powerful Sucker Punch, and not even the 3rd Strongest in UU. Cacturne's a mind-game pokemon with its most popular set being based on Sucker Punch and Focus Punch, but Sand Veil hax aren't going to make or break the match based on that; Cacturne's too weak and slow to be any threat even with the chance that something will miss him.

As such, the only problem, and I mean the ONLY problem, is Garchomp. One pokemon breaks Sand Veil, just like one pokemon broke Speed Boost. The Garchomp/Blaziken Comparison is completely valid, because "uncompetetive" does not justify the double standard that says "Blaziken is broken because of Speed Boost. Blaziken is banned. Garchomp is broken because of Sand Veil. Only Rough Skin Garchomp is allowed."

I don't think Sand Veil is the problem at all. It sure as hell wasn't one generation ago. Neither was Snow Cloak. What's changed since then? Garchomp.