np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[capefeather]

To conclude this argument I would like to point out that weather effects the whole of the metagame in a negative way. It's not like one Pokemon which in itself is broken such as shadow tag Chandelure. Weather (drizzle/drought) mixes up stab boosts and weaknesses of a large majority of Pokemon. It allows Pokemon 'X' to live Pokemon 'Y's' attack. It allows 'Y' to kill pokemon 'Z'. Without permanent weather 'Mario With Lasers' things such as 'Thundusus/Starmie' wouldn't need to be banned. Like KingClown has said 'why isn't weather being blamed for over centralizing?'

A lot of things have this effect. Choice Scarf allows X to live through Y's attack (because it doesn't happen) and kill Y. Stealth Rock does the "allow Y to kill Z" thing all the time, a lot more than people ever suspected at the beginning of DP.

With this bug in mind, it might be worth considering Wobbuffet for ubers, since he can no longer be safely set up on.

This link leads to the Dragonspiral Tower forum...

 

[KurashiDragon]

This link leads to the Dragonspiral Tower forum...

I believe he was refering to this http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448567

It's called a fundamental part of making an argument, Ethos. Prove that you are more credible than your opponent by criticising him. Did he deserve it, no, but hey it's the internet.

No. That's nothing more than internet mudslinging. Rather than criticize me for a small error in my post, you counter my own argument with your own experiences and proof that the metagame is not how I think it is. If you go with your mudslinging idea then their really is no point in someone speaking against your childish posts.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Ethos is the establishment of credibility. While disestablishment of credibility by criticism of argument IS indeed part of argument, pointing out that he doesn't deserve it and it's the internet discredits you more than it does the opponent.

As for the Encore trick...interesting. This might give Wobb some saving grace in OU. Maybe not enough to Uberbump it, but enough to make it a credible threat again once PO fixes it.

 

[spweasel]

It's true Gzig that sometimes opposing opinions are pushed aside.
For example Kurashi made very good points on how weather will not effect the majority of OU statistics, but instead of commenting on the basis of his whole argument people pinpointed the small error he made about Heatran because it was the only thing they could criticize and prove wrong.

He didn't really make any points at all, though, he just tossed in some thoughts about a couple different Pokemon, and even then he made some mistakes. The person who Kurashi quoted was being extremely conservative as well, since he didn't factor in details like all Ground and Steel Pokemon suddenly losing Sand Stall or Latios suddenly losing the best Dark-Type in OU. And just because something might not drop in usage to the point where it changes Tiers doesn't mean it didn't undergo a major metagame shift - if something goes from 15% usage to 5% usage, it might still be OU, but it means you are playing a very different metagame.

Not only this but I feel like sometimes people are misreading and putting words in peoples mouths.

I don't think you have any right to make that argument.

As KingClown has roughly said, sandstorm itself isn't broken, it does not mess around with stab boosts and weaknesses like drizzle and drought but however certain abilities within sand storm are broken. Such as the Sand Rush ability on Excadrill (which is just like drizzle + swift swim btw).

Permanent Sandstorm is just as centralizing as permanent Rain or Sun, it's just that we've all gotten used to it. It changes the metagame to put greater emphasis on Ground and Steel types, which in turn has a trickle-down effect. It doesn't have as much effect on sweepers, but it instead changes how every defensive Pokemon looks at the game.

And, for what it's worth, Stealth Rock has always been far more overcentralizing than all the weathers combined.

When something is broken it should be banned. Full Stop. No ifs and buts.

If something isn't broken, it shouldn't be banned for being broken. See? I can make completely worthless absolute statements, too.

"Broken" is not a boolean constant, nor is it any numerical value inherent in a Pokemon. The extent to which a Pokemon is broken is determined by the metagame. If a metagame is healthy and lacks uncompetitive features, then it follows that there is nothing sufficiently broken to consider banning. Right now, the only thing that seriously risks being uncompetitive is Garchomp, so the argument comes down to whether or not the metagame is healthy.

In my opinion, the metagame is healthier than it ever was during Generation IV. While there is no easy method to determine a metagame's health, usage stats are a great place to start. The fact that OU simply isn't big enough to fit all the OU-viable Pokemon in it is a great sign (well, not for UU, but that's a different story). The more viable options there are, the healthier the metagame, even if weather needs to be considered when team building.

To look at the Characteristics of a Desireable Pokemon Metagame, the only problems with the current metagame that I see are that the different strategies might not be quite Balanced (I'd say they are generally close enough, though), and that I'm not convinced Stability has set in (although given the nature of the Dream World, I'm not sure if it ever will completely).

We have to carry counter checks for sun/rain/ sand(excadrill or chomp) do you get how ridiculous this is sounding? There is nothing that counters all of the above.

Expecting one Pokemon to counter no fewer than 10 specific Pokemon (weather inducers and weather abusers) is ridiculous.

To conclude this argument I would like to point out that weather effects the whole of the metagame in a negative way.

This isn't something you've yet proved, since the metagame is full of viable options right now. Indeed, since permanent weather makes plenty of otherwise lackluster Pokemon viable (but not uncompetitive, with a few exceptions), it's not unreasonable to say that weather is actually good for the metagame.

Without permanent weather 'Mario With Lasers' things such as 'Thundusus/Starmie' wouldn't need to be banned. Like KingClown has said 'why isn't weather being blamed for over centralizing?'

Because Starmie doesn't need to be banned, and if Thunurus does, Rain will be at best a minor consideration.

Is weather overcentralizing? Yes and no. It's certainly the elephant in the room, but it's not like it is a single moveset that warps the metagame like SD Chomp in Gen IV. Weather inducers themselves run multiple sets each and are rather easy to take out, while weather abusers come in all flavors, each with a different sort of counter.

Trying to find a specific counter for every possible threat is a fool's errand, and has been since long before Politoed and Ninetails had Dream World abilities. Make a team that wins in the abstract, fine tune it to cover up any common weaknesses, and then outplay the opponent. That's what Pokemon is all about. That doesn't change if you are worried about weather abusers or if Trick Room teams were dominating the meta.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I don't think you have any right to make that argument.

People can say whatever they want, even if it is hypocritical. I can say being addicted to gambling is bad, even though I myself am addicted to video games. And considering the situation, he is in his right.

If something isn't broken, it shouldn't be banned. See? I can make completely worthless absolute statements, too.

I was almost not going to post anything, but then I saw this garbage. If you understood anything about logic you would realize how little sense this just made. I can say "every square is a rectangle," but the opposite of "every rectangle is a square," its completely wrong.
Anyway your "worthless statement" makes a bit of sense. I mean you don't go around banning things for no good reason. There are some other reasons to ban too, like "overcentralization" and "uncompetitiveness," but brokeness is a big one.

"Broken" is not a boolean constant, nor is it any numerical value inherent in a Pokemon. The extent to which a Pokemon is broken is determined by the metagame. If a metagame is healthy and lacks uncompetitive features, then it follows that there is nothing sufficiently broken to consider banning. Right now, the only thing that seriously risks being uncompetitive is Garchomp, so the argument comes down to whether or not the metagame is healthy.

Sure, broken is a subjective term, but so is your "uncompetitive" too. I might think king's rock is "uncompetitve," and if uncompetitveness was completely not subjective then king's rock must be banned too. But you aren't seeing many rock's rock banning people, are you? As you said, it matter if it makes a healthy metagame, which is completely subjective.

In my opinion, the metagame is healthier than it ever was during Generation IV. While there is no easy method to determine a metagame's health, usage stats are a great place to start. The fact that OU simply isn't big enough to fit all the OU-viable Pokemon in it is a great sign (well, not for UU, but that's a different story). The more viable options there are, the healthier the metagame, even if weather needs to be considered when team building.
To look at the Characteristics of a Desireable Pokemon Metagame, the only problems with the current metagame that I see are that the different strategies might not be quite Balanced (I'd say they are generally close enough, though), and that I'm not convinced Stability has set in (although given the nature of the Dream World, I'm not sure if it ever will completely).

I have to agree with you here for the most part, although is balance really needed? I mean rain dance teams (that actually use rain dance) and gravity are obviously not something to worry about, so under the idea of balance we should make the metagame to fit those to. I only think balance comes to play when something has taken over the metagame by storm, and they is no way to play around it but play with it, which is exactly what happened to rain.

Expecting one Pokemon to counter no fewer than 10 specific Pokemon (weather inducers and weather abusers) is ridiculous.

While a agree with this statement, I do not agree in the context. If everyone is forced to use X pokemon to counter Y pokemon, or else they will lose right then, then brokeness should be considered. I am not saying that should always be the case, I mean I have lost some games because I didn't have a counter to Liligant, but Liligant is not a popular pokemon by any means, it matters for the situation, and if Excadrill is forcing everyone to play with a certain pokemon, its not something to completely bash.
And from there I agree, overall I really do agree with what you say, but some of the things you say are just off.

 

[SlimMan]

Ok first of all, Darmanitan does learn Earthquake. I do know at least that much.

lol I just realized that I had been looking at Darumakka's page on Serebii. Fail

I guess I'm done arguing. I would like to be able to articulate what I'm trying to say better, but I just can't. My points have been made. The player base isn't going to change its mind. I can't PROVE whether (no pun intended) this metagame or a weatherless one would be more balanced and competitive, because I have no idea what the weatherless one would look like. We would need for it to exist to make the best judgement as to which is better. I guess there could be a weatherless ladder to find out, but I doubt that is going to happen either.

Yeah, I doubt it could garner enough support for it to be considered worth programming. I would say to use PO's, but their banlist is way different. So, I guess we'll have to go without.

Final Note: When you take into consideration that weather affects an entire team, and in some cases nerfs the opposing one (eg. Morning Sun, Fire/Water Attacks), the weather abusers are far stronger than Blaziken is. Azumarill kills Excadrill just as much as it kills Blaziken, and Slowbro is to Blaziken as Gliscor is to Drilly.

But when you lose to a series of weather threats, all in a row, you're losing to that team. No weather abuser is as strong as Blaziken was. They are as strong altogether, but then you're facing the whole team, not a single sweeper.

By the way, Azumarill kills Excadrill more than Blaziken, because Blaziken could avoid getting KOed by being in Sun, while Excadrill has to be in Sand.

Lastly, your Slowbro-Gliscor comparison doesn't really hold up. Blaziken could beat Slowbro by going mixed, and MixKen was still awesome. Excadrill can beat Gliscor by going mixed, but MixDrill... sucks.

Overall, King, I hear where you're coming from, and I understand your points (a couple of which I would agree with, just not the main idea). I just don't think you're getting your ideas across clearly enough (or maybe I'm wrong, idk). But it's a problem we all suffer from, so...

 

[Mario With Lasers]

To conclude this argument I would like to point out that weather effects the whole of the metagame in a negative way. It's not like one Pokemon which in itself is broken such as shadow tag Chandelure. Weather (drizzle/drought) mixes up stab boosts and weaknesses of a large majority of Pokemon. It allows Pokemon 'X' to live Pokemon 'Y's' attack. It allows 'Y' to kill pokemon 'Z'. Without permanent weather 'Mario With Lasers' things such as 'Thundusus/Starmie' wouldn't need to be banned. Like KingClown has said 'why isn't weather being blamed for over centralizing?'

Without Prankster, Thunder Wave, Nasty Plot, Focus Blast, Life Orb or STAB Electric, Thundurus wouldn't need to be banned either.

 

[Woodchuck]

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.
I agree with your "everything relevant" statement.
What I meant to discuss was what we'd do in the even that another pokemon came out with the broken ability that wasn't broken. What would we do then? Would we leave it banned? Or would we unban the ability and unban the broken pokemon?
In my opinion, abilities should only be banned when it's almost irrelevant which pokemon gets the ability. If we found Drizzle to be broken, then fine, we could ban Drizzle. Or we could ban Politoed and have people complaining it's not broken ala Blaziken.
However, if the ability provides a boost to that specific pokemon and could feasibly not be broken on another 'relevant' pokemon, then that ability isn't broken, the pokemon is.

There's no point in theorymonning how would pokémon X fare if it had the ability, if it can't get it and won't get it.

I agree with this, which is why it makes much more sense to ban pokemon rather than abilities. Moody was pretty much the only exception in that it's broken on everything, while Smeargle is still competitively relevant.

 

[SlimMan]

Responded to what I considered worth it.

Not only this but I feel like sometimes people are misreading and putting words in peoples mouths. Sand Rush Stoutland is nowhere near as broken as Sand Rush Excadrill. As KingClown has roughly said, sandstorm itself isn't broken, it does not mess around with stab boosts and weaknesses like drizzle and drought but however certain abilities within sand storm are broken. Such as the Sand Rush ability on Excadrill (which is just like drizzle + swift swim btw).

Sand Rush is not like Drizzle+SwSw, you said so yourself. "it does not mess around with stab boosts". Until Sand gives Excadrill a 50% stronger EQ, it will not be just like Drizzle+SwSw.
Also, Sand Rush Excadrill isn't broken. It has way too many counters and checks for it to be. I can name some if you'd like.

I know the argument is that if we were to do this on smogon too, it would mean everything would need to be tested again. But this is not the case. We are not promoting banning separate abilities on every Pokemon. We are referring to ban only such Broken Abilities in OU, such as SV Chomp which was banned in 4th gen because it allowed a one turn hax to effect the outcome of the match. Yes I know hax is a part of the game, but it doesn't mean we should be abusing it.

Are you proposing we ban Sand Veil, or Chomp? I'm confused.
Also, SV Chomp was not banned in Gen4. Chomp was.

We have to carry counter checks for sun/rain/ sand(excadrill or chomp) do you get how ridiculous this is sounding? There is nothing that counters all of the above. Unless you count using a weather team yourself. This is called over centralizing. Yes these checks do other things aswell, but to create an 'effective' team which counters everything broken, you are limited to a very narrow choice, with only one or two spaces on you're team left.

Do you know how ridiculous you're sounding? Yes, you have to run checks/counters for the top threats in the metagame. Weather has literally done nothing to change this. If you don't have a way to deal with top threats, you'll lose, even in a weather-less metagame.

And you're right, there is no single thing that counters all of the weathers. But it's called a team. And a team can counter them all, or check them all, or some combination.

You don't have to counter everything broken. You just have to have a way to deal with it. And given that most weather sweepers of the same weather also share the same checks, you don't need to dedicate a whole team to it. In addition, there are way more options for each sweeper than you imply.

To conclude this argument I would like to point out that weather effects the whole of the metagame in a negative way.

Prove it. You haven't done that yet.

It allows Pokemon 'X' to live Pokemon 'Y's' attack.

There's this great new item called Eviolite. Or, if you're too old-school for that, we can talk about the Focus Sash.

It allows 'Y' to kill pokemon 'Z'.

There are these great items, called Choice Items. And let's not forget the old classic, Life Orb.

Without permanent weather 'Mario With Lasers' things such as 'Thundusus/Starmie' wouldn't need to be banned.

Without Starmie/Thundurus, Drizzle wouldn't need to be banned. o.0
Not that it does anyway...

Like KingClown has said 'why isn't weather being blamed for over centralizing?'

Because overcentralizing isn't an issue. Scizor and Heatran centralized Gen4. If the weathers were broken, then it would be an issue. But you've failed to prove that they are, so...

Now if anyone would like to falter my argument instead of pinpointing a weaker argument to counter, I would be happy to listen to you.

Literally, the only thing I can say is "lol".
Pompous much? Supercilious much? Gosh, I love those words.

 

[spweasel]

People can say whatever they want, even if it is hypocritical. I can say being addicted to gambling is bad, even though I myself am addicted to video games. And considering the situation, he is in his right.

I was (admittedly rudely) pointing out that this flaw in the argument was not unique to people who do not share his viewpoint. Frankly, neither side of any argument is going to completely understand the other, which is why there continues to be arguments.

I'll come out and say that before I started actually playing on PO, I was all for banning weather due to the sheer theoretical strength of it. But after having played it, I see that the metagame has balanced out and is in a good state, where simply using a Rain team does not mean running 5 set Pokemon with one wildcard. It's more that I run 1 set Pokemon (who is himself customizable), a couple Pokemon that abuse the weather (coming from a rather long list), and then a few wildcards to balance the team and make it all work together.

I was almost not going to post anything, but then I saw this garbage. If you understood anything about logic you would realize how little sense this just made. I can say "every square is a rectangle," but the opposite of "every rectangle is a square," its completely wrong.
Anyway your "worthless statement" makes a bit of sense. I mean you don't go around banning things for no good reason. There are some other reasons to ban too, like "overcentralization" and "uncompetitiveness," but brokeness is a big one.

My point was that the statement was way too vague to be said in so absolute a fashion. It does absolutely nothing to further the argument or help us come to any sort of agreement over the current situation, so it's worthless. I didn't really mean anything in particular by stating the opposite, it was simply the most convenient way of pointing out the flaw in that sort of arguing (though admittedly I could have found a better one, since as you pointed out the inverse isn't as much of tautology as it should have been). I'll edit it.

As best I can tell, he was saying that Rain/Sun are broken, so they need to be banned. But he was saying it as if the brokenness of Rain/Sun is obvious or had been already proven, which it has not. Just because he thinks it's broken doesn't mean that it is broken.

Sure, broken is a subjective term, but so is your "uncompetitive" too. I might think king's rock is "uncompetitve," and if uncompetitveness was completely not subjective then king's rock must be banned too. But you aren't seeing many rock's rock banning people, are you? As you said, it matter if it makes a healthy metagame, which is completely subjective.

"Uncompetitive" has a fairly objective meaning to it - it's anything that makes the metagame more about getting lucky than being skilled. Sure, the interpretation of how far that goes is up for debate, but it is still a pretty clear concept. If anything that forces a significant amount of unwanted luck onto the opponent becomes popular, and if that luck gives most opponents a very significant chance of losing, then it is uncompetitive to the point of needing to be banned.

I can't think of a single King's Rock user that is popular, let alone a situation where that flinch chance has a significant effect on the metagame. I'd be more inclined to agree about Jirachi possibly being uncompetitive, but then again any Earthquake user faster than he is spells doom for him.

"Broken" means... what exactly? Overpowered? Are we talking about practical strength or theoretical strength? How do we measure that? Since usage statistics seem to indicate that everything is more or less fine, I don't see how anything could be called "broken" at this point in time.

I have to agree with you here for the most part, although is balance really needed? I mean rain dance teams (that actually use rain dance) and gravity are obviously not something to worry about, so under the idea of balance we should make the metagame to fit those to. I only think balance comes to play when something has taken over the metagame by storm, and they is no way to play around it but play with it, which is exactly what happened to rain.

Balance only applies to the strongest strategies, and I really do think we're doing pretty good right now. I could see an argument that Sand's too common or there's not enough Trick Room (or whatever), but overall I don't think anything needs to be done balance-wise.

While a agree with this statement, I do not agree in the context. If everyone is forced to use X pokemon to counter Y pokemon, or else they will lose right then, then brokeness should be considered. I am not saying that should always be the case, I mean I have lost some games because I didn't have a counter to Liligant, but Liligant is not a popular pokemon by any means, it matters for the situation, and if Excadrill is forcing everyone to play with a certain pokemon, its not something to completely bash.
And from there I agree, overall I really do agree with what you say, but some of the things you say are just off.

To me, it sounded like he wanted a single Pokemon that could solve all his weather problems without running weather himself. I was just saying that metagames don't work like that. You can find plenty of checks for each of the biggest weather abusers without turning off the weather. Excadrill can't handle many things that it can't OHKO, since a strong Fighting or Water attack will take him out right away. I had to run HP Electric on my Politoed because otherwise I was very likely to get roflstomped by Gyarados. If a metagame has very many Pokemon that need a very specific counter, then yes, there's a problem with the metagame. But I'm not seeing too much of that right now.

 

[Woodchuck]

"Uncompetitive" has a fairly objective meaning to it - it's anything that makes the metagame more about getting lucky than being skilled.

Uncompetitive is extremely subjective because not everyone agrees on what the term means and to what extent is the line of "uncompetitiveness".

Sure, the interpretation of how far that goes is up for debate, but it is still a pretty clear concept. If anything that forces a significant amount of unwanted luck onto the opponent becomes popular, and if that luck gives most opponents a very significant chance of losing, then it is uncompetitive to the point of needing to be banned.

But that's subjective in itself. The interpretation is highly subjective. Also, what amount is "significant"? "Significant" is such a vague term that it literally invites subjectivity with abandon.

However much you'd like to think so, "uncompetitive" is a poor word to use in an argument. There was an entire thread on the meaning of "uncompetitive", and the only consensus that came about was that "uncompetitive" is a poor word to use in the sense that you're using it. Everything in a competitive pokemon game is "competitive" unless the player is running it because they don't want to win. The definition of "competitive" is "Of, pertaining to, or characterized by the action of attempting to win".

Not attempting to win doesn't occur outside of trolling.

 

[Nkululeko]

Ethos is the establishment of credibility. While disestablishment of credibility by criticism of argument IS indeed part of argument, pointing out that he doesn't deserve it and it's the internet discredits you more than it does the opponent.

I felt that the error he made was dismissable and wrongfully undercut the grander point he made. That's why I said he didn't deserve it but that sort of thing does happen on the internet. I wasn't the one going for the Ethos argument, not my style. I'm more of a logos player myself.

No. That's nothing more than internet mudslinging. Rather than criticize me for a small error in my post, you counter my own argument with your own experiences and proof that the metagame is not how I think it is. If you go with your mudslinging idea then their really is no point in someone speaking against your childish posts.

I thought I said you didn't deserve the criticism for the error in your post but recognized that shining a spotlight on it is a common technique in making an argument. My "idea" was that mudslinging is an often used technique for making/countering arguments. My "childish" post was explaining what happened the way I saw it and why I thought it was wrong but accept it as a common debate tactic, esp in the internet.

Sorry for agreeing with you.

For the suspects, I don't see any as too overpowered. They all have their respectively powerful niches, true, but nothing is too out of control or anywhere near as centralising as Gen 4 Garchomp.

Just to completely sidetrack the drama eyeroll worthy drama that's been going on for a few pages now, I've decided on NO SUSPECTS personally for this round (this includes the two suspects on the list atm), and taking back my Brightpowder ban vote from the previous round if I can (having thought about it I think it's pretty silly of me ban it in the first place but w/e).

Thank you.

 

[Jibaku]

Just to completely sidetrack the drama eyeroll worthy drama that's been going on for a few pages now, I've decided on NO SUSPECTS personally for this round (this includes the two suspects on the list atm), and taking back my Brightpowder ban vote from the previous round if I can (having thought about it I think it's pretty silly of me ban it in the first place but w/e).

 

[Requiem[9]]

About the Excadrill thing, Starmie can beat Ferrothorn if it crits 2x in a row. Anything can beat its counters with enough hax, and that's a kinda terrible argument to use.

About your HP ICe Excadrill example. If Exca uses HP Ice, he utterly neuters himself against other threats, and is probably not going to sweep a good team, even after the Gliscor dies. Exca needs all his coverage (and SD) and an HP Ice Excadrill would definitely not be broken.

Excadrill will often need one crit or flinch to kill Skarmory at +2 -- especially since Skarm will often have to run some amount of SpD to justify its teamslot. It's using a move with a high flinch chance. Skarmory cannot do anything but Whirlwind in response while Excadrill takes no damage from spikes because of Balloon and 6% from SR. It can Brave Bird to open Excadrill to Spikes damage and do ~24%, but that opens it to more damage, meaning it probably won't be switching in again if it Whirlwinds, and another crit-flinch chance. Except, given the ridiculous amount of Ferrothorn in the meta, Taunt is clearly the better move on it. That Skarmory would be running Brave Bird at all is a pretty big testament to how miserable Excadrill is. Anything kills anything with two crits, I agree, but a 0.391% is not the same as a 36.25%. 36.25% over many turns with no fear of retaliation. 36.25% that damages Skarmory for 30-40% one way or the other. It's not at all a terrible argument to use...

Excadrill does not need a coverage move with Rock/Ground coverage already; it can very viably run HP Ice. Granted, it's probably not as useful as Rapid Spin or Frustration and it's certainly not as effective as just pairing it with Landros or Garchomp, but it's at least as viable as Rapid Spin and could very easily kill a lot of teams in the current metagame.

 

[AlphaSpade]

Excadrill does not need a coverage move with Rock/Ground coverage already; it can very viably run HP Ice. Granted, it's probably not as useful as Rapid Spin or Frustration and it's certainly not as effective as just pairing it with Landros or Garchomp, but it's at least as viable as Rapid Spin and could very easily kill a lot of teams in the current metagame.

Mindlessly spamming HP Ice in order to catch Gliscor on the switch will backfire more than you think, which is basically the only way you can beat it. Balloon Excadrill can't even 2HKO Min Sp. Def Gliscor, so just slapping Balloon and HP Ice wont work.

Also, I'd really would rather losing to Virizion if I could.

 

[SlimMan]

Excadrill will often need one crit or flinch to kill Skarmory at +2 -- especially since Skarm will often have to run some amount of SpD to justify its teamslot. It's using a move with a high flinch chance. Skarmory cannot do anything but Whirlwind in response while Excadrill takes no damage from spikes because of Balloon and 6% from SR. It can Brave Bird to open Excadrill to Spikes damage and do ~24%, but that opens it to more damage, meaning it probably won't be switching in again if it Whirlwinds, and another crit-flinch chance. Except, given the ridiculous amount of Ferrothorn in the meta, Taunt is clearly the better move on it. That Skarmory would be running Brave Bird at all is a pretty big testament to how miserable Excadrill is. Anything kills anything with two crits, I agree, but a 0.391% is not the same as a 36.25%. 36.25% over many turns with no fear of retaliation. 36.25% that damages Skarmory for 30-40% one way or the other. It's not at all a terrible argument to use...

Actually, none of this is true. Where to start?

Ok, Skarm normally does run Max Def in this meta, because with all the hard hitters (and its low Sp Def), it can't really afford to not go Max Def (unless it is not your main physical wall, in which you would have a different way to kill Excadrill anyway). Running Sp Def on Skarm would basically limit its usefulness, as even with Max Sp Def it's not that specially bulky. So your Sp Def point is pretty much moot.

Secondly, Adamant Balloon Excadrill fails to 3HKO Skarm with a +2 Rock Slide, assuming Skarm has Lefties. So actually, Skarm could Brave Bird, Roost a couple times, Brave Bird, again, and repeat the whole process. Balloon Exca loses.

Adamant LO Excadrill fails to 2HKO Skarm with a +2 Rock Slide. So Skarm could Whirlwind it out to rack up Spikes damage. And then finish it off with Brave Bird later on.

Third, Skarm very rarely runs Taunt in this meta, because it simply needs every single one of its other moves. If it could have a fifth move, yes, it would use Taunt, but losing any of its four standard moves would hurt it more than help. And that's not even saying that using Taunt makes Skarm itself complete Taunt-bait. Somehow, I wonder why hurting Skarm makes Taunt "clearly better". Skarm is best off setting up along side Ferrothorn, or switching out. If you think Brave Bird is only for Excadrill, I legitimately question your knowledge of the metagame.

To say Excadrill has no fear of retaliation is foolish. To be a little harsh, saying that Skarm doesn't counter Exca almost makes me think that you just have an Excadrill-weak team. A lot of times (i.e. when Excadrill uses Balloon), a crit or flinch won't even mean the end for Skarmory.

]Excadrill does not need a coverage move with Rock/Ground coverage already; it can very viably run HP Ice. Granted, it's probably not as useful as Rapid Spin or Frustration and it's certainly not as effective as just pairing it with Landros or Garchomp, but it's at least as viable as Rapid Spin and could very easily kill a lot of teams in the current metagame.

Yeah, Excadrill does need a coverage move. If it doesn't use one, it loses to any Ground-immune/resistant poke who is not weak to Rock. Celebi, for example. Lati@s, for example. Bronzong, for example. Hell, even Reuniclus can tank a +2 EQ and then OHKO with Focus Blast. Do you want me to list more?

By trying to beat Gliscor, Excadrill causes itself to lose against so many more Pokemon that it is simply never worth it. It's not as effective as X-Scissor (arguably the best coverage move) and it's not as effective as Rapid Spin. MixDrill might get a few sweeps off the surprise factor, but it's just not as good as the standard Excadrill moves.

 

[Requiem[9]]

Actually, none of this is true. Where to start?

Ok, Skarm normally does run Max Def in this meta, because with all the hard hitters (and its low Sp Def), it can't really afford to not go Max Def (unless it is not your main physical wall, in which you would have a different way to kill Excadrill anyway). Running Sp Def on Skarm would basically limit its usefulness, as even with Max Sp Def it's not that specially bulky. So your Sp Def point is pretty much moot.

Secondly, Adamant Balloon Excadrill fails to 3HKO Skarm with a +2 Rock Slide, assuming Skarm has Lefties. So actually, Skarm could Brave Bird, Roost a couple times, Brave Bird, again, and repeat the whole process. Balloon Exca loses.

Adamant LO Excadrill fails to 2HKO Skarm with a +2 Rock Slide. So Skarm could Whirlwind it out to rack up Spikes damage. And then finish it off with Brave Bird later on.

Third, Skarm very rarely runs Taunt in this meta, because it simply needs every single one of its other moves. If it could have a fifth move, yes, it would use Taunt, but losing any of its four standard moves would hurt it more than help. And that's not even saying that using Taunt makes Skarm itself complete Taunt-bait. Somehow, I wonder why hurting Skarm makes Taunt "clearly better". Skarm is best off setting up along side Ferrothorn, or switching out. If you think Brave Bird is only for Excadrill, I legitimately question your knowledge of the metagame.

To say Excadrill has no fear of retaliation is foolish. To be a little harsh, saying that Skarm doesn't counter Exca almost makes me think that you just have an Excadrill-weak team. A lot of times (i.e. when Excadrill uses Balloon), a crit or flinch won't even mean the end for Skarmory.

What? Having a Skarmory on your team in this metagame forces you to make a lot of concessions, since you give things like Gliscor, Thunderus, Heatran, and Rotom-W a free switch. Defensively, you'd need at least two parts of a FWG core and a decent way of dealing with Thunderus -- which is kind of hard. Latias is an alternative possibility for a defensive pokemon, but playing with Latias in the early to midgame against Tyranitar is always a big risk. Moreover, unless you're willing to run Shed Shell, which is an awful idea, you can't really pair it with Nattorei or your team is too weak to Magnezone. The end result of all this is that good teams with Skarmory almost invariably rely on Skarmory to handle threats like Gengar, phaze Reuniclus in a pinch, to Brave Bird Celebi, to take the occasion Draco Meteor, etc. All of which require SpD. Moreover, without SpD, Garchomp can just run Fire Blast to get through it. Since most teams with Skarmory rely on it to handle Garchomp, it needs at least some SpD to be able to later Roost at vulnerabilities (Nattorei, Bronzong) in the opponent's team. That's why, even though Skarmory is by miles the best answer to SubChomp and an okay check to Excadrill and Reuniclus, exceedingly few people use it at the top of the ladder: compensating for the massive hole it puts in your team costs too much. Because of that, Skarmory is very often weak and, outside of full stall, rarely physically defensive. It's the same reason Skarm was always specially defensive last gen, only exacerbated. I just finished laddering to reqs a few minutes ago and I only saw 3 other players using Skarmory, as a metric. To put that into context, I saw more players using Ononokusu than Skarmory. All of them on teams more defensively-based than mine, at least one of which with significant special investment. I don't think Careful Skarmorys have any business in this metagame, but I think that, optimally, the EVs should be split between SpD and Def in some form. If you're at the top of the ladder with a fully physical Skarmory, I guess you're a better player than I am? I can vaguely see it being possible if paired with Celebi, but I can't see it being as effective as specially defensive variant.

Those calcs all assume that Skarmory is at full health. And, I mean, it really isn't. Skarmory has to switch into Garchomp and Ononokusu and is often the main switch against Landros. It really needs to set up against Jirachi and Ferrothorn too, leaving it open to paralysis. I mean, assuming you do phaze Excadrill the first time, you're going to have to look closely for an opportunity to heal the 30%. And, if you don't, you're risking that it SDs a second time every time you Roost or Brave Bird, meaning you'll be even weaker -- if not dead -- by the time you actually get it out of there.

And, again, what? In a metagame where the number one pokemon is a grass/steel type without Rapid Spin that learns Spikes, Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, and Stealth Rock, Brave Bird is the clearly superior option? In a metagame where two of the most important switches into Skarmory, Gliscor and Thunderus, set up +2 Atk, Brave Bird is the superior option? I mean, Brave Bird definitely has its uses outside of Excadrill, like hitting Celebi or breaking Heatran's Balloon or just hitting stuff hard, but my point is that Taunt is nonexistent when it should be a serious, if not more prevalent, option.

I don't call 24% when I can SD or Rock Slide for 30-40% retaliation, mostly... My point isn't that Skarmory doesn't check Excadrill, or that it isn't good against Excadrill, it's that with a small amount of hax and proper support Excadrill just kills it. In the broader perspective of the metagame and the play, Skarmory's a great check to Excadrill; but, it's far from a counter. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just think that Rock Slide flinches beating Skarmory is a really valid point.

And this is assuming your opponent doesn't just have a Magnezone on his team. Teams with Skarmory can't really afford a second physical wall at all, so it's not even theorycraft: by having Skarmory, your team is automatically much weaker to a solid section of the metagame.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being stubborn because that's the way I constructed the metagame.

Yeah, Excadrill does need a coverage move. If it doesn't use one, it loses to any Ground-immune/resistant poke who is not weak to Rock. Celebi, for example. Lati@s, for example. Bronzong, for example. Hell, even Reuniclus can tank a +2 EQ and then OHKO with Focus Blast. Do you want me to list more?

By trying to beat Gliscor, Excadrill causes itself to lose against so many more Pokemon that it is simply never worth it. It's not as effective as X-Scissor (arguably the best coverage move) and it's not as effective as Rapid Spin. MixDrill might get a few sweeps off the surprise factor, but it's just not as good as the standard Excadrill moves.

Reuniclus takes more damage from a +2 EQ than it does a +2 X-Scissor. Bronzong walls it no matter what. Most good players run Frustration for the neutral damage against Rotom-W and Gliscor anyway, so it's not like Celebi's on most people's minds. Or that common, even. Lati@s is a valid point, I guess, but it's a lot easier to get rid of those than Gliscor. I mean, I'm not saying HP Ice should be its main set or anything, but it's not losing much at all from running it. I'm not advocating it, but I strongly disagree that it's invalid...

 

[alphatron]

The problem is that Excadrill is only running hp ice for a grand total of one thing, and that it isn't useful at all whatsoever outside of intentionally attempting to mess with Gliscor. It's kind of like using specially defensive Scizor just to deal with Latios. Sp.Def Scizor doesn't accomplish anything else at all.

 

[ZoroarkFTW]

Wanna easily take care of Skarm and other Steel types?
Probopass w/ Magnet Pull
Moveset:
- Taunt
- Sunny Day
- HP Fire
- Volt Switch
Since most Steel types like Skarm, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn have only one or two attacks, by walling Skarm and trapping it with Magnet Pull, and then using Taunt, Skarm would only be left with Brave Bird, and since Probopass only takes 0.25 from it, and Probo holding Leftovers, you get about all of your Hit Points back by the end of the turn.
Then by using Sunny Day, all Fire type moves get there power doubled, HP Fire would probably 2HKO Skarm, if Skarm is at full HP.
Then when the next poke comes in, use Volt Switch to still get some damage off, and get a safe switch-in.

 

[Alice]

@Alice That's exactly my point. You act like banning auto weather would be an unspeakable act of stupidity. It wouldn't be. Overcentralization was not a problem last gen with SS and Hail. Hail got nothing exciting, tbh, as Kyurem isn't going to break Hail. Less than 100 Speed, weak to Fighting, Rock, and (obviously) Dragon. And now there's a less electric weak Walrein (Regice). That's about it.

Well, there's people already complaining about how kyurem is so broken in UU, even saying than hail is better than sun thanks to him; personally I think that it's unpredictability coupled with stab 130spatk 100% acc blizzard spam is just enough for it. Furthermore, there'll be other hail abusers such as frostlass or mamoswine (have you realized more than half of the OU teams out there are mamo weak?, even rain ones), and then people will start to complain about how hail makes lots of thing unplayable, how snow cloak hax have screwed their ladder score, and how kyurem becomes worse than late 4genOU mence, and so on...

 

[T-RaT]

Sand Rush is not like Drizzle+SwSw, you said so yourself. "it does not mess around with stab boosts". Until Sand gives Excadrill a 50% stronger EQ, it will not be just like Drizzle+SwSw.
Also, Sand Rush Excadrill isn't broken. It has way too many counters and checks for it to be. I can name some if you'd like.

Excadrill has higher stats than rain abusers, plus it is normally running SD which it can get in if the switch is good, which if anyone with any sense is using it, it will be. Meaning that actually, it gets a +2 boost on it's moves, STAB or not, rather than the +1 boost that rain simulates on only STAB boosts, plus the stats mean that it's damage is higher as standard anyway. Checks don't matter, kyogre has checks, we need counters, feel free to name them and explain them, and I'll feel free to shoot them down.

Are you proposing we ban Sand Veil, or Chomp? I'm confused.
Also, SV Chomp was not banned in Gen4. Chomp was.

SV had a large impact in the banning of chomp in gen 4, not as large as the fact it was a badass that we couldn't handle, granted, but it was still there. Even if you don't agree that SV makes a big difference, I suggest that brightpowder becomes unbanned to save hypocrisy, although admittedly if you have both then hax will end up being when someone actually manages to hit the thing as it seems more unlikely than the miss at that stage.

Do you know how ridiculous you're sounding? Yes, you have to run checks/counters for the top threats in the metagame. Weather has literally done nothing to change this. If you don't have a way to deal with top threats, you'll lose, even in a weather-less metagame.

And you're right, there is no single thing that counters all of the weathers. But it's called a team. And a team can counter them all, or check them all, or some combination.

Try to remember you're only allowed 6 pokemon, and that every weather abuser has a team of things around it, you're not countering threats, you're countering threats and the threats to those threats (try and keep up with the overuse of one word). Quick maths for you, 4 weathers, we won't argue over how effective each is, we'll just say we have to counter them all, on each weather team there is an abuser, that abuser requires synergy with the rest of the team, but the team has to counter the other weather teams, so that's the abuser of your weather, plus your weather starter, plus the counters to the other weathers and their counters to you team plus the inclusion of non-weather teams. Meaning you need a counter for every whether, their counter to you, plus counters to other threats meaning you need 8 pokemon plus counters to anything non-weather you haven't covered. Come to me with a valid team of 9 pokemon and I'll encourage your support, maybe even call you god. Granted 1 pokemon could cover more than one spot but there aren't many, and then we have to discuss overcentralsation, which without offense, considering the lack of backup to your previous arguments, I don't have time for.

You don't have to counter everything broken. You just have to have a way to deal with it. And given that most weather sweepers of the same weather also share the same checks, you don't need to dedicate a whole team to it. In addition, there are way more options for each sweeper than you imply.

Anytime you want to contradict yourself more, feel free. A way of dealing with something is called a counter, hence if you have a counter you have a way of dealing with it and vice versa you can't have one without the other like you just suggested. Checking a weather gets you killed in a nasty war of switching which takes entry hazards and all day. Having more options for each sweeper simply backs up Rosey's point that there are no simple counters for them.

There's this great new item called Eviolite. Or, if you're too old-school for that, we can talk about the Focus Sash.

A minute ago you were saying how rain and sun boost stab moves by 50%, that would cancel out the defence boosts of eviolite (in simple terms I know it's not exact like that) and therefore you would have OU vs NFE, feel free to ladder with an NFE team, tell me how that works out for you. As for focus sash, the other weathers (sand and hail) remove the sash at the end, and for the other weathers, in order for your sashed masterpiece to counter it it need to switch in and even if none of this were true let's take your attitude to the situation, there's this great little move called stelth rock and what it does you would never believe, it does damage on the switch so you don't have 100% health and you focus sash is useless.

There are these great items, called Choice Items. And let's not forget the old classic, Life Orb.

Congratulations irrelevance, these items are just as easily place upon the weather abusers, although granted they don't need them because the weather does their effect for them anyway. Sand rush or swift swim > choice scarf, rain or sun boost is similar to choie band/specs and as for life orb, that's outdone by sand strength never mind the rest. Plus these weathers don't have drawbacks such as 10% HP drops or only being allowed to use one move before having to switch allowing excadrill to SD and destroy your team

Without Starmie/Thundurus, Drizzle wouldn't need to be banned. o.0
Not that it does anyway...

Drizzle was banned due to swift swimmers and the boosts moves got from it, of which starmie and thundurus were not top of the list, be it that they were high up.

Because overcentralizing isn't an issue. Scizor and Heatran centralized Gen4. If the weathers were broken, then it would be an issue. But you've failed to prove that they are, so...

Scizor and heatran were in roughly 60% of games between them, weather is in over 90%, where's the line?


Also, in case you didn't want to take this from someone with almost no posts, I'd like to point out that I don't post here because of people like you who have arguments backed by nothing, granted I've hardly backed my arguments up, but I thought I'd follow the norm. You also tend not to like my attitude towards people who make no sense and my 'taking no prisoners' approach to debate. Hopefully I managed not to swear through this as I believe this is supposed to be child friendly. Would explain why several of you act like children anyway.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Sand Rush is not like Drizzle+SwSw, you said so yourself. "it does not mess around with stab boosts". Until Sand gives Excadrill a 50% stronger EQ, it will not be just like Drizzle+SwSw.

Sorry, I was combining two separate arguments together and should have been clearer about the points I was trying to get across. Yes, Sand is not the same as Sun/Rain. ‘As KingClown has roughly said, sandstorm itself isn't broken, it does not mess around with stab boosts and weaknesses like drizzle and drought’. Yes I know the use of sandstorm is for defensive purposes i.e the sp.def boost on rock types, however damage calculation wise this does not affect the metagame nearly as much rain/sun, being that Tyranitar (and maybe terrakion) are the only common rock type in OU. However, there are abilities within sand that I believe are broken i.e Sand Rush Excadrill and SV Chomp. ‘(which is just like drizzle + swift swim btw).’ Yes you are right; I’ve made an error here. Drizzle + swift swim is not the exact same as sandstorm in the sense that it doesn’t mess around with stab boosts and weaknesses. I meant it’s the same as in the sense that it gives a permanent speed boost (to sand rush) but maybe I should have been more clear.

Also, Sand Rush Excadrill isn't broken. It has way too many counters and checks for it to be. I can name some if you'd like.

Sand Rush Excadrill has ‘counters’ but not many. Let’s view the OU counters for Excadrill: Skarm, Gliscor, Hippodown, Breeloom and Roobushin.

1. Yes Skarmory counters Excadrill but honestly, what can Skarm do to it, Brave Bird, Whirlwind? There is a whole argument about this further up the page. But this is assuming that you wouldn’t switch Excadrill out into a more appropriate Pokemon to attack =S

2. A common item used on Dory is Balloon. A Dory after one SD fails to 2KO max HP/DEF Gliscor (other sets will be 2KOd - thanx to ballon). However, looking at statics, Rock Slide has a 30% chance to flinch, which can be relied on twice because of balloon and, 227 Atk vs 156 Def & 361 HP (100 Base Power): 314 - 372 (86.98% - 103.05%) - Average: 342/ 94.74%.This means that on average (including SR damage) Dory can live an Earthquake from a Wall Gliscor. In conclusion, I’m not saying that any argument should be solely based on hax because anything can beat anything with hax, I’m just stating the fact that just one flinch (x2) with rock slide allows Dory to beat probably its toughest counter, and if Gliscor had more than 10% damage already done to it, it would be possible to 2KO Wall Gliscor.

3. Excadrill will always be able to 2KO max HP/Def Hippo after one SD, and if it holds balloon as item it can for sure.

4. On average Excadrill can live a mach punch from max att breeloom and on average Dory can OHKO it back with Return. (Does not include SR damage)

5. A Max Att/HP Roobushin at 416 Att, using a stab mach punch with iron fist ability on Dory, will NEVER OHKO it. (266 - Average/ 73.68%) However, a Dory after one SD OHKO it back on average with Earthquake.

Are you proposing we ban Sand Veil, or Chomp? I'm confused.
Also, SV Chomp was not banned in Gen4. Chomp was.

I forgot Smogon does not agree with complex bans, but I was stating that in my opinion Sand Veil Chomp (Rough Skin too if necessary) needs to be banned. Whoever said ‘Chomp is OU because it has checks now such as Latios’ my point was that sand veil (hax abuse) can allow Chomp to counter his checks, I’m fairly sure this was the main reason he was banned 4th gen too, as he had counters such as Latias and Skarmory back then as well (which could still be overcome by hax). Plus one invasion in SS is the equivalent to 100% moves now having the same accuracy as Thunder. My point is ‘it allow a one turn hax to effect the outcome of the match. Yes I know hax is a part of the game, but it doesn't mean we should be abusing it.’

And you're right, there is no single thing that counters all of the weathers. But it's called a team. And a team can counter them all, or check them all, or some combination.

You don't have to counter everything broken. You just have to have a way to deal with it. And given that most weather sweepers of the same weather also share the same checks, you don't need to dedicate a whole team to it. In addition, there are way more options for each sweeper than you imply.

Within Rain there is Hurracine/Thunder/Water stab abuse which does not have the same checks. Within Sun there are Fire/Grass sweepers which do not have the same checks and nor does it have the same checks as the rain sweepers. Additionally, the checks for Excadrill/Chomp are not the same as the above. Yes every team should be based on common OU checks, but with weather it just becomes too problematic; one team can only check so many.

And on the concept of teams, any good weather team (whether it be rain/sun or sandstorm) is prepared for all of the counters and checks for it and for other weather, and for other things in the Metagame, meaning that in order to have one team counter all of potentially 5 or 6 teams that it has in one, it would be insane.


And to the guy who thought I wanted Starmie and Thundurus banned. For the record I'm not looking to ban them (and I can think of worse weather abusers), however I was just using the examples from the person I previously quoted.


I see that you have managed to reply before me T-RaT, and I completely agree with what you have said.

 

[Meru]

What? Having a Skarmory on your team in this metagame forces you to make a lot of concessions, since you give things like Gliscor, Thunderus, Heatran, and Rotom-W a free switch. Defensively, you'd need at least two parts of a FWG core and a decent way of dealing with Thunderus -- which is kind of hard. Latias is an alternative possibility for a defensive pokemon, but playing with Latias in the early to midgame against Tyranitar is always a big risk. Moreover, unless you're willing to run Shed Shell, which is an awful idea, you can't really pair it with Nattorei or your team is too weak to Magnezone. The end result of all this is that good teams with Skarmory almost invariably rely on Skarmory to handle threats like Gengar, phaze Reuniclus in a pinch, to Brave Bird Celebi, to take the occasion Draco Meteor, etc. All of which require SpD. Moreover, without SpD, Garchomp can just run Fire Blast to get through it. Since most teams with Skarmory rely on it to handle Garchomp, it needs at least some SpD to be able to later Roost at vulnerabilities (Nattorei, Bronzong) in the opponent's team. That's why, even though Skarmory is by miles the best answer to SubChomp and an okay check to Excadrill and Reuniclus, exceedingly few people use it at the top of the ladder: compensating for the massive hole it puts in your team costs too much. Because of that, Skarmory is very often weak and, outside of full stall, rarely physically defensive. It's the same reason Skarm was always specially defensive last gen, only exacerbated. I just finished laddering to reqs a few minutes ago and I only saw 3 other players using Skarmory, as a metric. To put that into context, I saw more players using Ononokusu than Skarmory. All of them on teams more defensively-based than mine, at least one of which with significant special investment. I don't think Careful Skarmorys have any business in this metagame, but I think that, optimally, the EVs should be split between SpD and Def in some form. If you're at the top of the ladder with a fully physical Skarmory, I guess you're a better player than I am? I can vaguely see it being possible if paired with Celebi, but I can't see it being as effective as specially defensive variant.

Those calcs all assume that Skarmory is at full health. And, I mean, it really isn't. Skarmory has to switch into Garchomp and Ononokusu and is often the main switch against Landros. It really needs to set up against Jirachi and Ferrothorn too, leaving it open to paralysis. I mean, assuming you do phaze Excadrill the first time, you're going to have to look closely for an opportunity to heal the 30%. And, if you don't, you're risking that it SDs a second time every time you Roost or Brave Bird, meaning you'll be even weaker -- if not dead -- by the time you actually get it out of there.

And, again, what? In a metagame where the number one pokemon is a grass/steel type without Rapid Spin that learns Spikes, Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, and Stealth Rock, Brave Bird is the clearly superior option? In a metagame where two of the most important switches into Skarmory, Gliscor and Thunderus, set up +2 Atk, Brave Bird is the superior option? I mean, Brave Bird definitely has its uses outside of Excadrill, like hitting Celebi or breaking Heatran's Balloon or just hitting stuff hard, but my point is that Taunt is nonexistent when it should be a serious, if not more prevalent, option.

I don't call 24% when I can SD or Rock Slide for 30-40% retaliation, mostly... My point isn't that Skarmory doesn't check Excadrill, or that it isn't good against Excadrill, it's that with a small amount of hax and proper support Excadrill just kills it. In the broader perspective of the metagame and the play, Skarmory's a great check to Excadrill; but, it's far from a counter. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just think that Rock Slide flinches beating Skarmory is a really valid point.

And this is assuming your opponent doesn't just have a Magnezone on his team. Teams with Skarmory can't really afford a second physical wall at all, so it's not even theorycraft: by having Skarmory, your team is automatically much weaker to a solid section of the metagame.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being stubborn because that's the way I constructed the metagame.

An amazing in-depth analysis of Skarmory in the current metagame. If you're relying on Skarmory to wall Excadrill, your team needs to solidly be built around handling the special switch-ins that'll wreck your team. It's not just as easy as "Oh I'm weak to Excadrill, better throw Skarmory on my team and forget the other 5 pokemon that typically come with Excadrill."

 

[ZoroarkFTW]

An amazing in-depth analysis of Skarmory in the current metagame. If you're relying on Skarmory to wall Excadrill, your team needs to solidly be built around handling the special switch-ins that'll wreck your team. It's not just as easy as "Oh I'm weak to Excadrill, better throw Skarmory on my team and forget the other 5 pokemon that typically come with Excadrill."

That's what throws me off with some people, they just focus on taking care of one pokemon, like Excadrill, so they try to attempt a wall and bring in a Skarmory, not thinking about Excadrill just switching into a Special Sweeper like Thunderous and Starmie (Which are both just TOO broken) and easily killing Skarmory with an electrical attack or a STAB Water type move. Or, what i love to do to take care of Skarmory, I have a Probopass w/ Magnet Pull as an ability, which traps Steel types, not allowing them to switch out and Hidden Power Fire, and Taunt. So then like how most Skarmorys are, they are then stuck with Brave Bird, or better yet, they have no attacking moves and are just stuck with Struggle. Evil, just evil. Then when you take care of Skarmory with Probopass, they send in something else, and your able to stay in and wall it, and Volt Switch out of there. This method also works with Ferrothorn (Which is just even MORE broken, the top used pokemon in OU)

 

[truevillany]

capefeather i wanted you to know that i saw your response to what i said a last week.... the conversation has changed a bit so i am not going to bring it up but i wanted you to know that i have resons for disagreeing with your comment and i wasn't pointing my comment directly @ you