np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Nkululeko]

Sure, 156 more Pokemon contributed to that (such as in Gyarados' case) but the addition of weather has negatively impacted usage, more so than any changed metagame in the past.

It's not Gen 4 anymore, the past viability of a pokemon has nothing to do with banning/tiering efforts in Gen 5. I wouldn't be opposed to banning a weather, yes I'm still against Drizzle, if it was broken but I think we're gonna need more than, "the best of Gen 4 OU aren't as good in Gen 5."

Pokemon are judged solely on how they compete with weather sweepers. If it loses to more than one regularly, it sucks. End of story. No one uses it.

Weather sweepers are the current threat in the metagame. Weather is about 40% of the metagame this Gen. If a pokemon loses to 40% of a metagame regularly then yes, it sucks in that metagame. No one should use it if it loses that often.

If viability of previously-unviable Pokemon is an argument to NOT ban weather, shouldn't it work the other way around as well?

It's a fact that weather has in some capacity been contributing to diversity in this meta but that's not a good argument not to ban weather IMO. If weather makes previously bad pokemon good, and good pokemon great, then weather might be overpowered. You touched on it in your post and I'll elaborate my thoughts later.

Weather has made some of last gen's top threats (ignore Aboma; different example) borderline dangerous to use without weather around it. Heatran is useless in rain. Its nearly useless in sand.

What about Sun? Softens a crippling water weakness and boosts it's already powerful STABS. Besides, a pokemon's viability in Gen 4 has absolutely nothing to do with it's viability in Gen 5.

'Chomp wasn't even broken in Gen. 4 (imo).

Lmao!

 

[SlimMan]

Sand Veil Garchomp is not the problem. Sand Veil everything is the problem.

When a problem is inherent to an ability and almost or completely independent of the Pokemon that might have it, then and only then must the ability alone be addressed, not the Pokemon in any form. This is one such case. The only thing that differentiates Garchomp from other Sand Veil and Snow Cloak Pokemon is that it's the most viable in OU, but as I've explained so many times before, this is not just about OU. It's about dealing with a group of uncompetitive Pokemon throughout OU, UU, NU, and any more tiers between them. All of the tiers are equally important, and therefore Garchomp, Cacturne, Froslass, and everything else are equally important, and must be dealt with equally: by preventing practical use of the ability, not be banning entire Pokemon.

Hence my statement: "Even the 'uncompetitive' crowd can't vouch for it, as it would affect Garchomp and not the 'uncompetitive' ability".
I said it in less words, but it's almost exactly the same as your reply to it. We appear to agree on that, at least.

By the way, not all the tiers are equally important. NU historically, has had a much smaller playerbase than UU or OU. Therefore, it should take a backseat in importance and the latter two would get priority over it.

Not even just that, but dealing with "uncompetitiveness" in UU or NU doesn't matter here, all we care about for this thread is OU, and Garchomp is the only user in OU.

Unneeded rant:
I hate the use of the word "uncompetitive". Not because we're not using it's dictionary definition. Not because it's technically being used wrong (we do that to other words all the time). It's because it literally got made up in the Round 3 thread. Sand Veil haters made up the term "uncompetitive" in the last round, and it was created, I believe, in part because of the connotation it has to most battlers. "Uncompetitive" sounds negative and it subconsciously makes people dislike it without even getting into the issue (and it also makes users of the term sound more legit, because there's a word for what they're trying to say but that's another matter entirely). The real argument, which is that it's too luck based, was hidden behind a new term for reasons which seem completely unnecessary to me. Use your real motives for hating Sand Veil, not a term you made up yourselves for this sole purpose!

 

[Tobes]

To be fair uncompetitive was used to describe Moody (which it definitely was, I don't think there's any arguing against that, unless you want to go into semantics about the term uncompetitive itself) way earlier in Round 1.

Although I do agree with your main point SlimMan.

 

[SlimMan]

To be fair uncompetitive was used to describe Moody (which it definitely was, I don't think there's any arguing against that, unless you want to go into semantics about the term uncompetitive itself) way earlier in Round 1.

Although I do agree with your main point SlimMan.

Well, going into semantics, "uncompetitive" was only used once, on page 72.

What I mean is that the same arguments were made in Round 1 (that the luck factor of Moody was absurd and ban-worthy, not even mentioning the brokenness of it). But they actually said that they hated the luck. I hate that people try to sugarcoat it now and sound fancy, by throwing around this made-up word. I wish that the actual arguments would be presented, not a one-word, invented summary of the arguments. Talk about what you actually dislike, people!

But thank you for agreeing with me. ;P

 

[spweasel]

Abomasnow has fallen 50-some spots from last gen to this gen, completely erasing the viability of hail teams in OU.

This is the most hilarious bit of backwards logic I've read this week, and that is saying a lot (as I've been following this thread). Usage does not determine viability. Viability usually helps determine usage, but the opposite is emphatically wrong. As the adage goes, correlation does not imply causation.

Just because Hail teams are less common this generation does not mean that it is necessarily an invalid strategy. As I've said before, OU simply doesn't have the space to fit every viable Pokemon in it. So while Hail is certainly the underdog this Generation, I doubt that Abomasnow is completely unusable.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Lucario is nowhere near as much as in 4th Gen, due to weather.
14 | Lucario | 119072 | 12.25 | (then)
vs
37 | Lucario | 28559 | 4.7655 | (now)

No, it's because Lucario sucks nowadays. I find it amusing you mention B/W Lucario but not DPPt Heracross.

Heatran is useless in rain. Its nearly useless in sand.

Huhhhhhh it was #1 in DPPt and Tyranitar/Hippowdon were everywhere...

This is the most hilarious bit of backwards logic I've read this week, and that is saying a lot (as I've been following this thread). Usage does not determine viability. Viability usually helps determine usage, but the opposite is emphatically wrong. As the adage goes, correlation does not imply causation.

Just because Hail teams are less common this generation does not mean that it is necessarily an invalid strategy. As I've said before, OU simply doesn't have the space to fit every viable Pokemon in it. So while Hail is certainly the underdog this Generation, I doubt that Abomasnow is completely unusable.

Yeah, back in Round 2 people were using Hail Stall exactly to stop Rain... and it worked.

 

[SlimMan]

@Kingclown50:
spweasel pretty much covered the "viability of hail" thing, so check his post, but I'd just like to say that if your team has 3 Garchomp checks, and a single miss causes you to get swept then the opponent must've outplayed you, in which case it's not Garchomp's fault. Or the guy getting swept is no good. Either way, half a team of Garchomp killers losing to Garchomp (due to a single miss) is in no way a testament to Garchomp's brokenness.

Also, why on earth would you say Heatran is nearly useless in Sand? It's immune to the Sand damage. Even if it weren't, Sand still wouldn't hamper it that much.
About the Excadrill thing, yes it will sweep once the other team's counter is removed. So will Salamence. So will Scrafty. That's what being a sweeper means. Having a team to remove or cripple its counters.
Agreeing with others that the lowered usage of some Pokemon from last Gen is irrelevant to tiering this Gen.
Gen. Empoleon is right; Leftovers will get you an extra Sub, giving you a greater chance at getting a miss than Brightpowder would.

 

[Kingclown50]

What about Sun? Softens a crippling water weakness and boosts it's already powerful STABS.

Yes, Heatran is good in Sun. That was my point. Ninetales isn't even used a FOURTH as much as Tyranitar + Hippowdon, despite how broken Sun can be on its own. And Heatran loses to most Sand things. And then we bring in rain...

Huhhhhhh it was #1 in DPPt and Tyranitar/Hippowdon were everywhere...

Excadril and Landorus didn't exist either. Now Heatran is forced to use Balloon or lose to those two. It loses all of its speed and is now just another slow fire type (albeit a bulky, non-SR weak one). Plus, if the number one Pokemon is Grass/Steel typed, why else, besides something as overcentralizing as weather, would Heatran not be #2? And a related question, why is Ferro #1 other than the effortless support Politoed gives it?

Alright, I want everyone to stop saying BrightPowder makes Sand Veil worse. Okay? It needs to stop! Statistically Leftovers is more useful than BrightPowder -- you get one more sub, and have a higher chance of getting a miss or more misses (when sand is up).

So, please, everyone stop saying BrightPowder makes it worse -- if you want to ban things because it makes sand veil worse then ban Leftovers. Gosh.

No, that's not what I said. I said if Brightpowder deserved a ban, so does Garchomp. I didn't combine the two.

Also, why on earth would you say Heatran is nearly useless in Sand? It's immune to the Sand damage. Even if it weren't, Sand still wouldn't hamper it that much.

Nearly useless was a bit of an exaggeration, but saying that 6% health per turn is going to matter against a team of EQ'ers isn't accurate either. Yes, it helps, but Balloon can only protect you once. It's not beating Garchomp, Excadril, Reuniclus, Gliscor, nor Terrakion.

 

[Birkal]

Yeah, back in Round 2 people were using Hail Stall exactly to stop Rain... and it worked.

I'd like to add my opinion to this whole "weather ban" with a different perspective. I have worked a lot with Hail-based teams and tested them countless times against other weather users. While Abomasnow certainly can change the weather to prevent Excadrill from sweeping or Politoed from Hydro Pumping, this shift is only temporary. Abomasnow is one of the frailest Pokemon in today's metagame with an astounding seven weaknesses to common threats like Fighting, Steel, Fire, and Bug. Don't get me wrong; I love Abomasnow and see its potential to check bulky waters and Grass-types. But against weather teams, Abomasnow has an uphill battle to victory. Even with Wood Hammer, it has a tough time OHKOing Tyranitar, Hippowdown, and Politoed. They all can fight back with Superpower, Roar, and Focus Blast respectively against Abomasnow's pitiful speed. So using the argument that weather is viable in OU because "Hail is a solution" isn't a legitimate stance. Abomasnow will almost inevitably fall, in which the opposing teammate will reinstate their weather abuser while you're down one Pokemon.

 

[Nkululeko]

Heatran is used a lot less this gen, majorly due to weather. (Rain, Excadrill outspeeds Scarf, etc.)

Heatran is useless in rain. Its nearly useless in sand.

Yes, Heatran is good in Sun. That was my point.

Retcon. Your point was Heatran was used less because of weather and you called it useless twice. Your point was clear, you just forgot that most OU viable pokemon have a weather their effective in, that's why the current metagame is Weather Wars.

I'd like to add my opinion to this whole "weather ban" with a different perspective. I have worked a lot with Hail-based teams and tested them countless times against other weather users. While Abomasnow certainly can change the weather to prevent Excadrill from sweeping or Politoed from Hydro Pumping, this shift is only temporary. Abomasnow is one of the frailest Pokemon in today's metagame with an astounding seven weaknesses to common threats like Fighting, Steel, Fire, and Bug. Don't get me wrong; I love Abomasnow and see its potential to check bulky waters and Grass-types. But against weather teams, Abomasnow has an uphill battle to victory. Even with Wood Hammer, it has a tough time OHKOing Tyranitar, Hippowdown, and Politoed. They all can fight back with Superpower, Roar, and Focus Blast respectively against Abomasnow's pitiful speed. So using the argument that weather is viable in OU because "Hail is a solution" isn't a legitimate stance. Abomasnow will almost inevitably fall, in which the opposing teammate will reinstate their weather abuser while you're down one Pokemon.

QFT. Having weather this prevalent in the metagame turns pokemon battles into aesthetically pleasing games of chess. Your weather starter is your Queen, your sweeper is your king, and everybody else ends up being a pawn. Having the most durable queen means easier victories, that's why Sand dominates the usage among weathers.

 

[SlimMan]

Yes, Heatran is good in Sun. That was my point. Ninetales isn't even used a FOURTH as much as Tyranitar + Hippowdon, despite how broken Sun can be on its own. And Heatran loses to most Sand things. And then we bring in rain...

But remember that some Sand teams use Hippo and T-Tar, so in reality Ninetales is used more than one fourth as much as Sand teams.
Plus, not all Tyranitars make a Sand team. Some people just use it because it's a good 'mon.

Not that this relates to your actual point, I was just pseudo-nitpicking...

Excadrill and Landorus didn't exist either. Now Heatran is forced to use Balloon or lose to those two. It loses all of its speed and is now just another slow fire type (albeit a bulky, non-SR weak one). Plus, if the number one Pokemon is Grass/Steel typed, why else, besides something as overcentralizing as weather, would Heatran not be #2? And a related question, why is Ferro #1 other than the effortless support Politoed gives it?

So wait, you're mad at weather, because now there are more Pokemon that beat Heatran? That's what happens in a new generation, certain Pokemon lose viability! I mean, just look at CurseLax! You can't seriously blame weather for that.

And it's silly to say that a Pokemon which beats #1 should automatically be #2. Last Gen, Vaporeon and Suicune beat Heatran (who was #1) but neither of them were #2. Maybe, Heatran isn't #2 because the metagame just isn't that kind to it, with all the new Fighting types running around, among other things. Heatran is still Top 10 anyway.

Ferro is not #1 just due to Drizzle. Politoed has less than half the usage of Ferrothorn, meaning that even if Ferrothorn is on every single rain team, most Ferrothorn are still used in non-Drizzle.

No, that's not what I said. I said if Brightpowder deserved a ban, so does Garchomp. I didn't combine the two.

This wasn't directed at me, but tbh Brightpowder didn't deserve a ban in the first place. It was just a victim of the Great Hax Panic of 2011.

Nearly useless was a bit of an exaggeration, but saying that 6% health per turn is going to matter against a team of EQ'ers isn't accurate either. Yes, it helps, but Balloon can only protect you once. It's not beating Garchomp, Excadril, Reuniclus, Gliscor, nor Terrakion.

Well, technically it can beat Garchomp, Excadrill, and Gliscor. Just not all in the same battle. Only one of them per match.

But anyway, that means that Sand teams beat Heatran. It doesn't mean that Sand negatively affects Heatran. The weather itself is neutral to Heatran. The Pokemon in the weather are the problem. A minor distinction, but I felt that it should be said.


EDIT: I wonder when we'll be getting May usage stats. If they're coming, prolly in the next few days, but I've heard nothing about them, so idk.

 

[Requiem[9]]

A lot of stuff.

Well, physically defensive Skarmory's fine in a vacuum against Excadrill, I can agree with that. The problem with Excadrill is that it forces teams to weaken themselves to accommodate a check for it -- either Gliscor or Skarmory -- as to not just lose to it and that, even when they do accommodate said check, the random team in the metagame will still overwhelm them. I feel like Excadrill's broken because a team needs to pack one of it's "hard counters" or multiple checks to even it the match a game of pokemon. In contrast, in gen 4, if you had a Gliscor on your team you almost just didn't have to worry about Lucario at all if you made any effort to conserve it -- barring stuff like Choice Scarf or Agility. That's what having a counter should feel like. This gen, you need to keep Gliscor over 70% to keep it out of flinch kill-range and over 50% to keep it out of Frustation kill-range. Gliscor is easier to fit and easier to preserve than Skarmory and I'd consider it fair to say Excadrill is acceptable because of Gliscor or Gliscor and Bronzong, but my point with that wall of text is that, given the state of the metagame, Skarmory's not on that list of Excadrill "counters". It's a weak check at best, like Reuniclus and Azumarill are weak checks.

And, yeah, I thought X-Scissor's BP was 70 fsr. Still, it's only 10 BP difference and I'm pretty sure Reuniclus can live both at +2. And aren't most Bronzong SR/Hypnosis/HP Ice/EQ? That's miles more threatening than Skarmory.

A cacturne that's played successfully doesn't nesecarilly need to rely on sand veil. You can still get that Swords Dance in and OHKO a ton of things with Sucker Punch. However, I agree that losing to pokemon that rely on sand veil is a problem. Plus, how the heck does suicine wall Cacturne? I understand that it can Ice Beam it, but Cacturne's STAB is super effective, and if Cacturne is a behind a sub, then it's hardly the opponents fault if you let your Suicune take a Seed Bomb

Ice Beam has a good chance of killing after SR, iirc. It was an SD + 3 attacks version that it didn't even have a Substitute, it just got 3 misses with Brightpowder and Sand Veil. (Scizor was already weak, to be fair.) I'd probably lost the game already by the time I came to Suicune, but that only furthers my point.

Alright, I want everyone to stop saying BrightPowder makes Sand Veil worse. Okay? It needs to stop! Statistically Leftovers is more useful than BrightPowder -- you get one more sub, and have a higher chance of getting a miss or more misses (when sand is up).

So, please, everyone stop saying BrightPowder makes it worse -- if you want to ban things because it makes sand veil worse then ban Leftovers. Gosh.

Leftovers is only relevant when the other pokemon is slower; Brightpowder makes it that much more likely Latios misses his DM or Scarfchomp misses his Outrage. And, once the pokemon's behind a Substitute, Brightpowder makes eventually breaking it more difficult. Statistically it's more likely that Leftovers gets a Substitute successfully, but that's not the same thing as "better".

Brightpowder's just a stupid item anyway.

 

[Kingclown50]

But remember that some Sand teams use Hippo and T-Tar, so in reality Ninetales is used more than one fourth as much as Sand teams.
Plus, not all Tyranitars make a Sand team. Some people just use it because it's a good 'mon.

I'll give you that.

So wait, you're mad at weather, because now there are more Pokemon that beat Heatran? That's what happens in a new generation, certain Pokemon lose viability! I mean, just look at CurseLax! You can't seriously blame weather for that.

Actually, I was simply defending why Heatran was #1 last gen despite sand, and now it's not. The addition of Excadrill, Landy, and rain are why.

And it's silly to say that a Pokemon which beats #1 should automatically be #2. Last Gen, Vaporeon and Suicune beat Heatran (who was #1) but neither of them were #2. Maybe, Heatran isn't #2 because the metagame just isn't that kind to it, with all the new Fighting types running around, among other things. Heatran is still Top 10 anyway.

No, not automatically, but you would expect the most used threat in the metagame to be followed closely by a Fire type that hits it 4x SE (and one of the only decent Fire types outside of sun, tbh. Infernape and Moth are about it). I think that weather is the biggest reason why, though I admit Conk/fighting types also contribute.

Ferro is not #1 just due to Drizzle. Politoed has less than half the usage of Ferrothorn, meaning that even if Ferrothorn is on every single rain team, most Ferrothorn are still used in non-Drizzle.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great pokemon. But without permanent rain, I HIGHLY doubt it would be #1. In fact, I guarantee it. Top 5, maybe. Top 10, probably. But not #1.

This wasn't directed at me, but tbh Brightpowder didn't deserve a ban in the first place. It was just a victim of the Great Hax Panic of 2011.

Agreed. Garchomp is much more broken than Brightpowder. (No one halfway decent even uses it, except some people that put it on Froslass, which is still a bad idea.)

Well, technically it can beat Garchomp, Excadrill, and Gliscor. Just not all in the same battle. Only one of them per match.

Heatran doesn't use HP Ice anymore, does it? I don't ladder super-frequently anymore, and most of the ones I've seen were bulky Trans with Lava Plume, etc.

But anyway, that means that Sand teams beat Heatran. It doesn't mean that Sand negatively affects Heatran. The weather itself is neutral to Heatran. The Pokemon in the weather are the problem. A minor distinction, but I felt that it should be said.

I would think if something beats a Pokemon, that Pokemon is negatively affected by it. Different viewpoints, I guess, but that's what I'm saying. Sand teams carry sand sweepers and sand sweepers are on sand teams. They go together, imo, in this case.

 

[SlimMan]

Well, physically defensive Skarmory's fine in a vacuum against Excadrill, I can agree with that. The problem with Excadrill is that it forces teams to weaken themselves to accommodate a check for it -- either Gliscor or Skarmory -- as to not just lose to it and that, even when they do accommodate said check, the random team in the metagame will still overwhelm them. I feel like Excadrill's broken because a team needs to pack one of it's "hard counters" or multiple checks to even it the match a game of pokemon. In contrast, in gen 4, if you had a Gliscor on your team you almost just didn't have to worry about Lucario at all if you made any effort to conserve it -- barring stuff like Choice Scarf or Agility. That's what having a counter should feel like. This gen, you need to keep Gliscor over 70% to keep it out of flinch kill-range and over 50% to keep it out of Frustation kill-range. Gliscor is easier to fit and easier to preserve than Skarmory and I'd consider it fair to say Excadrill is acceptable because of Gliscor or Gliscor and Bronzong, but my point with that wall of text is that, given the state of the metagame, Skarmory's not on that list of Excadrill "counters". It's a weak check at best, like Reuniclus and Azumarill are weak checks.

Well, it's true what you say about the actual meta, but I think we're both right in our own scenarios, so there's not much more to say there.

I disagree with you about the Lucario analogy, though. If that's what defines a counter, then almost nothing has any counters this Gen, which I find untrue. I stated what I believe to be a counter on in a post higher up, so you could read that if you want. I don't believe that there's any official definition of a counter though, just widely agreed upon ones.
If you're right about the counter thing, then there's something in between counters and checks now, and there was nothing between the two in previous Gens. In that case, that "middle" group of counter-checks would still have to be included in how to deal with a Pokemon, if not "real" counters.

Given my definition of counter, Skarm is a full-on counter because of how it does against Excadrill. I feel that, if the metagame forces it to use a set that doesn't counter Excadrill, then that's the metagame's fault, not Excadrill's. I feel that it's still a counter, just not with it's "metagame set". I believe that since your counters will always have their own counters on the opponent's team, it should really be a thing with just the Pokemon themselves when determining counter-ism.

When Gray comes out, Bronzong really needs to get Recover and Whirlwind via Move Tutor.[/COLOR]

I'll give you that.

Thank you. :)

Actually, I was simply defending why Heatran was #1 last gen despite sand, and now it's not. The addition of Excadrill, Landy, and rain are why.

Those aren't the only reasons why it dropped from #1, although they did contribute. Garchomp is back w/ EQ, Latios is back w/ Specs Surf, we've got Jellicent and an improved Slowbro, and then all the Fighting types I mentioned earlier.

Don't blame it all on weather, because weather has only earned part of the blame.

No, not automatically, but you would expect the most used threat in the metagame to be followed closely by a Fire type that hits it 4x SE (and one of the only decent Fire types outside of sun, tbh. Infernape and Moth are about it). I think that weather is the biggest reason why, though I admit Conk/fighting types also contribute.

It is followed closely by Pokemon that beat it though, just not necessarily Fire-types. Tyranitar owns Ferrothorn by using its (common) Mixed set, while CB Scizor KOes with Superpower. Gliscor can Taunt Ferrothorn, then set up in its face. Latios commonly carries HP Fire. Reuniclus sets up on it and eventually kills with Focus Blast (healing off Power Whip damage with Recover), while Heatran utterly destroys Ferrothorn. And that's just the Top 10.
Besides, if a Fire-type should follow it, then why are you not worried about Infernape or Volacarona, whom you mentioned?

No, a Fire-type isn't right behind it, but 6 of the Top 10 can KO it or set up on it, so the same effect is happening. It's followed closely by Pokemon that beat it, yes, but not necessarily by a Fire-type.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great pokemon. But without permanent rain, I HIGHLY doubt it would be #1. In fact, I guarantee it. Top 5, maybe. Top 10, probably. But not #1.

That's probably true. But then why does it matter, given that it would be so high anyway? Venusaur wouldn't be Top 50. Toxicroak wouldn't be Top 55. Pokemon rise and fall in usage depending on how they fare in the metagame, and Ferrothorn happens to do well in Rain. I'm wondering why Ferro rising a couple spots in usage makes weather broken.

Agreed. Garchomp is much more broken than Brightpowder. (No one halfway decent even uses it, except some people that put it on Froslass, which is still a bad idea.)

This.

Heatran doesn't use HP Ice anymore, does it? I don't ladder super-frequently anymore, and most of the ones I've seen were bulky Trans with Lava Plume, etc.

Any Balloon Heatran does carry HP Ice, for the sake of beating those threats (and Salamence, but it's not a Sand threat). So it would beat one of them.

I have seen the revenge of BulkyTran lately, but Balloon is still a very common set for it.

I would think if something beats a Pokemon, that Pokemon is negatively affected by it. Different viewpoints, I guess, but that's what I'm saying. Sand teams carry sand sweepers and sand sweepers are on sand teams. They go together, imo, in this case.

To recap: Sand is not bad for Heatran, but with Sand comes Sand sweepers, which are.
How about we compromise and say that Sand in indirectly bad for Heatran?

 

[jormungand201]

QFT. Having weather this prevalent in the metagame turns pokemon battles into aesthetically pleasing games of chess. Your weather starter is your Queen, your sweeper is your king, and everybody else ends up being a pawn. Having the most durable queen means easier victories, that's why Sand dominates the usage among weathers.

Wouldn't the weather starter be considered the King, because you have to keep it alive? And the Queen is the deadliest unit, so wouldn't the sweeper be the Queen? sorry for nit-picking.

I have been using a defensive drizzle team to great success, but lately I've been getting my ass handed to me by anti-weather teams. These teams don't use an auto weather inducer themselves, but benefit greatly if I send mine out. They use my power against me.

I mention this as a reminder of the constantly fluctuating lifeform that is this metagame. Good teams are made, a counter is made popular, a counter to that counter is made popular, then some users go back to the first good team, while new ideas pop up from within all that. Weather is great, yes, but it will eventually fall, then rise, then reach a middle ground given enough time.

In regards to Garchomp/Blaziken:

If we didn't care about UU i would stick to the idea of ability+pokemon bans, but since UU has a tediously long list of possible pokemon that would be allowed with a different ability (overcoat Reuniclus, effect spore breloom etc.) then i digress and say ban Chomp and Blaziken.

Although if a consensus was met to create some sort of stream-line banning for UU, i would opt for tiering by individual ability

 

[Joel]

And if by play smarter you mean devote half of your team to solely killing Garchomp and then losing when one of your attacks misses, then yeah, I see where you're coming from.

It's common for me to use Trick Room teams though. Not only do they counter 'Chomp...Bronzong, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Reunculus, Slowbro, ect. (I could keep going) says hi!, but TR pretty much counters any team that is runnning nothing but base 85+ speed Pokes. No need to devote myself to only countering 'Chomp when I can counter most teams that can't go slower than my Pokes.

Again, 'Chomp isn't a problem. Never has been. People need to stop battling like they're scared.

 

[Katakiri]

Heatran losing to Sand is nothing new. You bring up Landorus, but he's just "better" version of Flygon and back in 4th Gen, Heatran was no stranger to Flygon.

Fast Ground-types, Drizzle, Focus Blast because Tyranitar is more than OU, Jellicent, Rotom-W, the uprise of good Fighting-types, Eviolite, Explosion nerf.

Excadrill is like the 10th thing wrong with Heatran. 5th Gen is just not kind to Heatran at all. It's still good...but I wouldn't even consider using in on a Sun team. Sun's weak enough without bringing in Heatran's diseases.

 

[Yoshiken]

...So nowadays it's become acceptable to have to go that far to kill something? Why do we even have a banlist, then?

Last gen, you would ban a Pokemon if you had to devote 2 team slots to counter it in order to not get swept, and priority was not considered countering. Hell, you banned a Pokemon because it forced you to use Pursuit on every team, and I was happy about that (Latias).

"That far" isn't too far at all. Priority is incredibly widespread and the big priority users have a number of uses past Excadrill (and if you don't believe that, take a look at things like Toxicroak/Conkeldurr - Azumarill is just the dedicated counter, but still has other uses regardless.)
Pursuit is a different case in that it is nowhere near as common - for one thing, it's just one move, and I don't think it's as widespread as any of the priority moves, let alone all of them together.

Katakiri... Just curious, how does Eviolite affect Heatran's usage? Most of the big Eviolite users fill a very different roles to Heatran and, AFAIK, none of them are Fire-types.

Otherwise, everybody's already said what I've been thinking here. As long as there is variety in the metagame, it doesn't matter if that variety consists of old threats or not.
Just because Garchomp can successfully sweep with a little luck, it doesn't make it broken. If you think it is broken, argue why, but don't just argue that it can potentially evade repeated attacks when the odds of it happening are stupidly low.

Saying again that I believe nothing is broken right now. I also believe Evasion Clause could easily be removed and it would change practically nothing, but that's a different story entirely.

 

[Raikaria]

No, it's because Lucario sucks nowadays.

You do realise, if anything, Lucario got BETTER in Gen 5?

Extremespeed is now +2 Priority. No need to worry about Mach Punchers anymore, because at least you'll get a heavy hit in.

It can also use the buffed HJK now [It was a 4th Gen Egg Move, so is Legal with Ice Punch], sure, the accuracy might do Lucario in, but that extra 10 BP might net a few extra KO's, or allow Jucario to run Jolly when it may have ran Adamant in Gen 4. Lack of Defense Drops dosen't hurt Lucario either.

Gliscor got better, but that just means run Ice Punch Lucario instead of Crunch Lucario. Rotom-H isn't a Ghost anymore, after all.

I don't see any new hard counters for Lucario either. Conkeldurr isn't a counter, it's a revenge killer.

... Now, if you excuse me, after that, I suddenly have the urge to make a Lucario-team.

NU historically, has had a much smaller playerbase than UU or OU.

NU only existed in Gen 4 [Although one could argue that Gen 3 UU was an NU equivilent, as BL was actually a teir], and Smogon never officially supported NU. It's kind of unfair to compare the playerbase of a Smogon-supported metagame, and one that is not supported by Smogon.

 

[Yoshiken]

Just seconding the Lucario hype. I've been running a Sashed NP+3 attacks set, which provides me with some nice priority, perfect coverage and, with the right support, it almost always gets a KO, at least. Also makes for a nice revenge killer. :D

As a point, though? Lucario is the biggest threat to my Lucario. Bloody Extremespeed at +2. ;(

 

[capefeather]

(July 2010 Stats)
Heatran is used a lot less this gen, majorly due to weather. (Rain, Excadrill outspeeds Scarf, etc.)

Lucario is nowhere near as much as in 4th Gen, due to weather.
14 | Lucario | 119072 | 12.25 | (then)
vs
37 | Lucario | 28559 | 4.7655 | (now)

Gyarados fell 14% in usage.

I know this has largely been responded to, but you haven't given a single good example of a Pokémon for which weather is the dominant factor in its decline. For one thing, considering Latios is in this generation, it would be much more apt to compare to the Stage 3, Round 1 suspect tests in DPP, where Heatran is #11, Lucario's #10, and Gyarados is #8. Heatran seems largely unchanged in this comparison. Lucario is largely the result of the addition of other "ridiculous" threats that make it not that special anymore, and Gliscor, arguably its greatest nemesis, improving dramatically and rising to #5 (and LOSING its benefit from sand). Gyarados's decline can obviously be attributed to Ferrothorn, though honestly it's probably still better offensively than its usage is letting on (hell, rain HELPS Gyarados against Ferrothorn).

I honestly don't know how you attributed the decline of LUCARIO of all things to weather...

 

[jrp]

@kingclown
Gah, a pokemon's usage in DPPt doesn't mean anything in the modern days. Lucario wasn't killed by weather, lucario was ruined by things like Conkledurr that can easilly revenge it/kill it outright. Plus, Snorlax and umbreon were OU last gen and they lost a lot of usage, yet you neglect to mention them.

Quit looking at this like it's 4th gen because it's not.
And usage doesn't mean anything about viablity in regards to your comment on hail. I got up to 1400 running a hail team, so I mean, it's hardly unviable. Porygon2 was NU in 4th gen, but it could be one of the best utility tanks if it was used right in OU

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I think the lack of sun's usage may have something to do with the fact that it's incredibly hard to come up with supporting pokemon. On a rain team you have toxicroak, thundurus, tornadus, ferrothorn, and ludicolo. On sun, you have some good fire types and some good clorophyll users. While it might decrease a weakness, it powers up moves against it's supporting type. That kind of synergy plain doesn't work.

 

[Nkululeko]

I think the lack of sun's usage may have something to do with the fact that it's incredibly hard to come up with supporting pokemon. On a rain team you have toxicroak, thundurus, tornadus, ferrothorn, and ludicolo. On sun, you have some good fire types and some good clorophyll users. While it might decrease a weakness, it powers up moves against it's supporting type. That kind of synergy plain doesn't work.

Although Sun's not helped by having a weather starter weak to SR, and weak in general, it has supporting pokemon. Venasaur, Charizard, Heatran, and Victini do good in supporting Sun but Sun is at a disadvantage to begin with.

Wouldn't the weather starter be considered the King, because you have to keep it alive? And the Queen is the deadliest unit, so wouldn't the sweeper be the Queen? sorry for nit-picking.

Oops. I guess ya'll know how well I play chess...

Although if a consensus was met to create some sort of stream-line banning for UU, i would opt for tiering by individual ability

A consensus was met, it's called ban broken pokemon.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Brightpowder and Lax Incense are quite uncompetitive, if what you mean by "uncompetitive" is not wanting to win. Every Pokémon that can use these items has a better item to use, except Cacturne which isn't that good in standard even with it.