np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Cold Fusion]

This. I don't know why nobody has caught on yet. Vaporeon is really similar to manaphy, and probably just as problematic. The bulky calm mind set is done well by both pokes, and Vappy has higher special attack to work with too. Possible double standard?

Tail Glow, instant +3 is no laughing matter.

Edit: Before I forget, Manaphy has a much higher Base Speed to work with.

 

[Charro]

Manaphy is way faster that's why, and Tail Glow outpowers Specs , also Vappy doesn't learn Calm Mind
Just wait until Keldeo is released and we will have another Manaphy on the tier

 

[alexwolf]

Lol...um...dude...the thing with Sucker Punch is that...it's impossible to theorymon. At +6, Drain Punch will still hurt a lot of psychics such as Celebi/Latias who are trying to stall out Sucker Punch. It's all about the mind games. You can't claim that you'll lose with or without Sucker Punch. It depends who guesses what the other uses. Let's say I'm only at +2 and you send in Celebi. I might just SD again while you try to predict SU and now I'm at +4. Or, you HPFired me for over half when I tried to get +4. Now it's all mind games. If you attack again, I might start Sucker Punch spamming. But after you Recover/NP 3 times as I wasted Sucker Punch, I might just feel like taking a huge chunk of you with an unresisted SUPER boosted fighting move anyways. But if you happen to attack when I finally attack, then Celebi wins.

So stop being arrogant when you're absolutely wrong. It's an embarrassment.

Way to post a lot of useless words like "you lose if you use suckerpunch"

First of all i was talking about bulk up Toxi so no SD.And you are right it is all about mind games but the upper hand is in the hands of the one who has recover.Recover has 16 pp while SP has only 8.Anyway sry for stating that you always lose with sucker punch but i don't see why all the hate...And i wasn't completely wrong.I was partially wrong.

Salamence does hard counter Bulk Up Toxicroak. Apparently in your little fantasy world either Intimidate and Roost don't exist or there's some rule that allows Toxicroak to use Substitute and Bulk Up on the same turn. It either gets -1 Attack and a Substitute or a +0 Attack and +1 Defense without a Substitute, and either way it still loses.

It depends for which salamence you are talking.It is true that i didn't calculate intimidate which is a mistake from my part but not all salamence have roost.And of course i don't assume anything like this.The only thing i assumed is a sub on the switch.I just forgot to factor in intimidate.To come to a conclusion with intimidate factored in you do 30% damage minimum and 36% maximum.It's a free hit anyway so nothing to lose really.

Choiced Latios is bad, but it does beat you without Sucker Punch. With Poison Jab you are still forced out and Latios or Latias can Recover afterwards anyway.

Choiced Latios isn't bad.This is your opinion.For some people it may be good for some it may be bad,but for the most part i think that everyone knows that choiced latios is a very dangerous pokemon with good potential.I already told that choiced variants lose to SP while they don't lose to PJ.I also explained to you how you don't get forced out as easily as you think and you actually have a very good chance to take him down.

I mention it because you mentioned it as something you beat with Poison Jab. If you don't want me to respond to a point you try to make then don't try to make it. Even with Paralysis support you're still relying on luck to win.

Let's remember how our conversation started.You said that SP is much better than PJ and you started giving reasons.And then you brought up Reuniclus.What can a SP variant ever do to Reuniclus?With PJ you can at least damage him and with paralyze support you easily win.And no i am not relying to luck to win.I just examine the possibilities and when they are in my favour i go with their side.Sub has 16 pps.This means that if Reuniclus gets the normal paralyze chance he will be fully paralyzed 4 turns before sub finishes.These are 4 free turns.At worst i will get 3 free turns or even 2 if you want and at best i will get 5 or 6.That's fine also.If you think that this is relying on luck and not abusing the odds that are on your side then fine.

I'll give you Celebi, to an extent. It's still not a certain win, though. If Celebi's running Psychic, which is a good option for Celebi thanks to all of the Fighting-type Pokemon in OU, you lose regardless of your coverage move as long as Celebi runs 252 HP EVs, which it has no excuse for not doing in this metagame.

It all depends to the situation but the point is that you fare better against it than you would with SP.

Sure, you beat Jellicent eventually, but you do that with any other coverage move as well.

With any other coverage move huh?Like SP?Do you remember what our dispute was?We were arguing which one is better SP or PJ.And in this example PJ is clearly better.And instead of admitiing it what do you do?Talk about the other coverage moves...OK.

You will never break Gengar's Substitutes. A +0 Poison Jab does 17.9% - 21% to 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar. Take the Life Orb off and try again. Bulk Up Toxicroak should never run Life Orb.

Mistake i forgot to remove life orb.But still doing at least some damage to gengar is better than giving him free turns.

I just showed you how Toxicroak doesn't need so badly priority.Also 370 life and 247 defense with one bulk up is not nonexistent to me.

You clearly said back then that Toxciroak has nonexistent bulk after MULTIPLE boosts.I don't really get what you mean by nonexistent but with this so nonexistent defense Toxicroak can take almost every physical hit in the ou tier without being ohkoed.I am not telling he has impressive bulk but after 1 bulk up his defense is surely not nonexistent.
And let's leave the point where we show each other something 'cause it seems we aren't doing anything.

Stop assuming you always have one or more Bulk Up boosts. Toxicroak’s 83 Base HP and 65 Base Defense are terrible.

I never assumed that Toxicroak will have multiple boosts.You stated that Toxicroak's bulk even after many boosts in nonexistent and i showed you that the bulk of toxicroak with just 1 Bulk Up is very acceptable.I assumed this Bulk Up because you first assumed that after some Bulk ups his bulk is nonexistent.

The way you word this makes it sound like you're saying that you need Poison Jab to beat everything on this list, so that should tell you why I mention them.

Ah sry for the poor wording then.Some of them can only be beaten by PJ.

Sucker Punch can be regarded as coverage since it hits almost every Pokemon that resists Toxicroak's Fighting-type STAB moves at least neutrally. It just takes prediction to use properly.

Sometimes prediction isn't enough when the opponent either takes very little damage from drain punch or is immune to it.It just outstalls the pp of sucker punch while you struggle to do anything back.

It seems like you just make stuff up as you go along and don't even bother to check your facts. You don't really threaten any of the five most common Flying-types in the tier with Poison Jab as opposed to any other option. Gliscor resists it, Dragonite is bulky enough that it doesn't care one bit about anything you do and just KOs you with Extremespeed, Earthquake, or Dragon Claw, depending on the variant, Skarmory is immune to Poison Jab and hard counters you regardless of what coverage move you use, Gyarados has Intimidate to soften the blow, and Landorus resists it. Dragonite and Gyarados are the only Pokemon out of those five that you can make a case for threatening with Poison Jab. Of the top seven Psychic-types in OU, Poison Jab lets you cleanly beat only one of them. You can beat Latios, but it isn't guaranteed. You flat-out lose to Reuniclus and Jirachi unless you introduce luck into the game, which isn't a reliable answer because otherwise it wouldn't be luck. You do cleanly beat Starmie if it isn't running a Psychic-type attack, which most don't, so I'll give you that one. Espeon wins, but takes a hit doing it. Latias beats you unless you get Poison hax, and sometimes even then. Celebi, as already discussed, beats you cleanly if it runs Psychic. Congratulations, you've managed to beat maybe two or three Pokemon out if you've somehow managed to get both a Substitute and a Bulk Up boost in the single turn it takes to switch in.

First of all i didn't make anything from my head.The only thing i said that was unchecked was about salamence.And really i don't understand why all this hostility.We are not playing an arguement war where we must win the impressions.So there is no reason to get so worked up.Respect the other and make a polite discussion or else we will just tire the others and make this a personal flaming war.
Also why are we talking about other coverage moves?Wasn't our discussion about SP and PJ?So now we are discussing PJ or other coverage moves?Make yourself clear pls.Also Dragonite never ohkoes with Dragon Claw or ES.
The only think that i tried to show you is that sometimes PJ is better than SP.Every coverage move has its merits and each one of them beats something else.I chose PJ.Someone else may chose SE.But the point is that running a coverage move other than SP is sometimes a much better option.Why should i even try to explain to you what each coverage option does?What am i a pokemon tutor?The only thing i am going to explain to you is how PJ is sometimes better than SP.
And finally pls show me the part where i assumed that in one turn Toxicroak will both make a sub and get a bulk up 'cause i can't find it.

Poison Jab is not the best coverage move it can run. If you don't want to use Sucker Punch, Payback and Rock Slide/Stone Edge are options that provide much better coverage than Poison Jab.

This is up to debate and requires lot of talking.But this isn't our point.Our discusion was about PJ and SP if you remember.

Wow, you accuse me of making stuff up when nearly everything you’ve said was either pulled out of absolutely nowhere, easily proven wrong, or both? That’s audacious, but also incredibly pathetic and easy to see through.

I don't accuse you of making stuff up i am just telling to you that theorymoning is very different from actual experience.All that i am telling you is to first try the move and then tell me whatever you want.
Again why all this hostility?

Again, with paralysis support, any sweeper can beat counters and checks, without even needing paralysis hax in many cases. What part of this don’t you get?

The point is that Toxicroak abuses paralyze in a unique way that no other poke does and he benefits more than every other poke out there.Toxciroak works especialy good when the opposing team is paralyzed 'cause he can abuse subs almost infinitely.No other poke can do this.That was my point about paralyze.

I see no reason to waste a moveslot for a mediocre move on a Pokemon that is useless enough without the player using it deliberately trying to make it worse. I’ve already outlined far superior coverage options if you hate Sucker Punch that much. Come back and argue after you learn how to run damage calculations without messing them up and get your head out of whatever fantasy world you live in where Toxicroak can perform two or three moves in one turn.

Again i don't know why you bring up my misakes again and again.You did a lot also remember?You didn't know about ice punch and drain punch being illegal together and you though that Toxicroak cannot beat Jellicent with PJ.Did i started mentioning them all the time?No.Learn to respect the others.I show you no hostility yet you do.Learn to talk politely.And again show me the part where i assumed that toxicroak will perform 2 moves in a turn(let's leave this 3 turns joke aside 'cause it is a bad one).

Please do not incite a flame war. What alexwolf posted was not "absolutely wrong." There is a legitimate reason why alexwolf opted for Poison Jab - because it offers consistency without much drawback. Sucker Punch is a high-risk, high-reward, and it can really screw Toxicroak, who can't really hit hard with a Drain Punch. I don't know why you're using a +6 Drain Punch in your argument, because that seems unlikely to happen. alexwolf actually weighed the pros and cons of Poison Jab and demonstrated how Poison Jab is more-or-less a good alternative to Sucker Punch for those desiring consistent performance.

I have to agree with Davy Jones that alexwolf may have downplayed the usefulness of priority in Sucker Punch, but otherwise he made a good case for Poison Jab.

Yes it is true that i downplayed a little SP and thx for the support.

Anything he says about usefulness of Poison Jab is absolutely disregarded due to his ignorance and belief that Sucker Punch will always be used 8 times consecutively.

With comments such as

"And also i proved you how you don't lose to psychic types without sucker punch,exactly the opossite,you lose to psychic types IF you have sucker punch."

just shows that you shouldn't listen to people who play sub 1000 rating opponents. You, Pocket, also fail to completely read anything anyone else says as well seeing as my last post described the practical battling usage of Sucker Punch and did not anywhere refute Poison Jab's usefulness. (However I will dispute his given set is rather painfully mediocre.) How can you trust someone's account of how good something is when it clearly shows an inability to play?

I never told that SP wil be used 8 times consecutively.Where did you get this?
Also i already stated that i was exaggerating in this sentence.
And who are you to judge my gaming experience?
Stop the personal insults and try to stick to the point.You know to the part where you try to talk with the other and come to a conclusion by arguing.
Finally i am not the best player out there but i usually play around the 1250-1350 rating.If you want any proof for this pm me and i can send you some.

 

[-Tsunami-]

ok why are we still debating the Sucker Punch vs Poison Jab issue? It's not even that big of an issue to begin with.

I'm using one right now. Which coverage moves do you run? I'm trying brick break and u-turn, which are pretty good so far. +1 Acrobatics is so powerful, even without the Flying Gem.

Tornadus is really underhyped sadly. He's one of those great Pokemon that are overshadowed or overlooked for no real reason. His speed, mixed attacking stats, priority Sub, Rain Dance, Taunt and Tailwind give it loads of versatility. He'd be a top sweeper if he had Swords Dance IMO.

I run Acrobatics, Brick Break, Bulk Up, and Grass Knot, as the last move is basically a filler, and Grass Knot can kill those pesky Quagsires.

 

[alexwolf]

ok why are we still debating the Sucker Punch vs Poison Jab issue? It's not even that big of an issue to begin with.

I just answered man to all the quotes that i got that's all.The discussion started last night but i went for sleep and couldn't keep up so i had to answer now.And if you see the flaming and accusations over the last quotes i think that you will understand why i felt the need to answer.

Poison Jab gets shit coverage. Expecially with Fighting. Sucker Punch has been a fucking lifesaver in plenty of situations for me.

Poison Jab's resistances/immunities that are relevent (take neutral/SE damage from Drain Punch) and are seen in OU are usually Ghost types.
Gengar, Jellicent and the like. With Poison Jab, you instantly lose. Sucker punch gives you a chance to beat them.

Also, Toxicroak can easily beat Reuniclus? I'm calling your bullshit. You say that with paralyze support it can "easily" win, but you seem to be ignoring Trick Room Reuniclus.

The opposite basically.Opposing Jellicents can just oustall Toxicroak since you have nothing to hit them with and gengar commonly carries sub which blocks any attempts to SP it.
I just forgot him 'cause i see him rarely.So with paralyze support Toxicroak easily beats CM Reuniclus ok?And also why all the hate?You quoted just 2 sentences of mine and just because i forgot to mention a set that doesn't get beaten with paralyze you start calling my sayings bullshit?Really?
So if the OU suspect discussion thread is so hostile where are we supposed to talk about our ideas and new sets?And anyway why all this hate?Why all this attitude?A lot of people here act all high and mighty and every time they correct someone they do it in such an aggressive manner.The people that try to actually talk without trying to play it pro or sell an attitude are very few.Why is everyone trying to play it so damn experienced?

 

[November Blue]

So I've been testing SubRoosters recently. It's a remarkably effective strategy on the right pokemon, and as Staraptor has proven, it can be used offensively rather than the usual stallish sets. Here's my report:

Swellow.

@ Flame Orb
Jolly nature
Guts
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Facade
Brave Bird
Substitute
Roost

Surprisingly effective. It's walled by steels, yes, but you can just play around them. Switch in, sub up while the Flame Orb activates and nuke stuff with Facade. Brave Bird is a secondary STAB, meaning that Swellow won't be killing itself with recoil. The bird hits 383 speed (I could probably lower this to 368) KOing stuff like Latios and Thundurus before they can do anything. Swellow's Attack stat reaches 403, equivalent to Tyranitar and Dragonite. You use SubRoost like you would on Staraptor. While Staraptor was UU/BL, Swellow might be better suited for OU due to it's higher speed, as it almost outruns the entire tier.

Infernape @ Life Orb
Jolly Nature
Blaze, Iron Fist if possible
252 Atk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe

Focus Punch / Close Combat
Flare Blitz
Substitute
Slack Off

Fairly self explanatory. SubPunch / SubRoost Infernape.

Moltres @ Life Orb
Timid Nature
Pressure
28 Def / 252 SpA / 228 Spe

Air Slash
Fire Blast
Substitute
Roost

I dropped the speed down to 300. I'm not sure how many Adamant base 100 speed pokes are on the server. Maybe I can get away with 296?

Anyway, Moltres is amazing. Even without defensive investment the bird is a defensive juggernaut. It walls so many pokes with SubRoost: Scizor, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar ect. You'd think that SR + Sub + LO would kill it really quickly, but Roost fixes everything. Moltres is a bit like Breloom and Dragonite; Once it gets the sub up, it's game on.

I wonder if something like Hippowdon could run a SubRoost set?

EDIT: Choiced Latios isn't bad. Anyone who says that it is is just trying to be trendy IMO.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I've been seeing quite an increase in Trick Latios recently. Bastard things keep messing up my latios check.

 

[alexwolf]

I hate Tornadus so much. It's so annoying to kill that thing, especially with Hurricane's confusion chance. Priority Rain Dance can really win you the game, especially when both weather abusers are gone.

Also, that Vaporeon set seems interesting Tobes. I hate hydration + Rest as it is, and add in some good bulk + insane power and it seems like you could do some major damage. I'll have to try that out sometime.

Also, has anyone ever used a Bulk Up Tornadus? That thing can be seriously useful, as Flight Gem Acrobatics is nothing to laugh at, especially coming off a base 115 attack stat. I know Agamemnom made an RMT with that poke, and it seemed pretty effective. It can take out common switch ins such as Blissey with ease.

Yes i also use one in my drizzle team(the one in my signature)and it is very good.Very unexpected,powerful,weather independent and priority taunt always helps.
One of the best things is whenever i see an oppsoing sun team.I just lead with Tornadus and if they lead with tales most of the times i get an easy win since most stay in expecting me to switch out not wanting to risk doing a 50% accuracy move that won't ko a bulky ninetales.Acrobat with the jewel easily ohkoes offensive variants while doing this amount against full hp variants:493 Atk vs 186 Def & 350 HP (110 Base Power): 313 - 369 (89.43% - 105.43%)

 

[badabing]

I've been seeing quite an increase in Trick Latios recently. Bastard things keep messing up my latios check.

IMO trick should be a given on choice latios so it can cripple specially defensive jirachi. Its also handy for bulky cm rank and the occasional stall team

 

[Eggbert]

Specs Latios isn't bad but running recover and having the ability to switch attacks (especially when you aren't missing many 2HKOs) is more useful. Especially when you have to switch into powerful water attacks and recover off the damage.

Also Dragonite is really really good right now. A mixed attacker with LO and extremespeed is not only difficult to OHKO but can pretty much take down anything with its coverage and power. Then you can extremespeed some stuff before you fall to LO recoil.

 

[tehy]

Hey eggbert, can you please say that to everyone? i love lo dragonite!!!

Seriously-Unthreatening, suicidal, unable to actually KO with special moves and lacking in physical moves... Best d-nite set, even better than bandnite.

 

[Jaetheho]

how is LO DRAGONITE better than salamence? i mean with life orb, multiscale is pointles..

 

[Jirachee]

You basically get a free Dragon Dance when you're at max HP. It's pretty useful on stuff that can't OHKO Dnite but are going to switch into it : you get 1 DD on the switch, 1 DD as they attempt to attack, and then OHKO. LO just makes it hella powerful. And yeah, as Eggbert explained, Extremespeed is very useful against frail stuff that still outspeeds you.

 

[Demoli]

DD LO nite can tank a hit or two to raise itself to +2 att/spe, mence not so much. That extra difference can make or break a game.

 

[Eggbert]

Dragonite is much better than Salamence now. As said above, multiscale on the LO DD set is basically a one time shield that gives you a free DD, so if SR is not up you will almost always be able to get a DD up. If you are running mixnite, it lets you take almost any hit and then retailiate for an OHKO with draco meteor or hurricane. Since Dragonite is slow you will get to attack second before multiscale is gone. Then use e-speed to clean up.

 

[tehy]

Mence can actually outspeed stuff, dragonite not so much. That extra difference can make or break a game.

 

[Jaetheho]

ohhhh got it. i had a feeling it was an all attacker life orb thing. do you guys run ES, dragon claw and fire punch or EQ?

 

[Eggbert]

Like what? DD Dragonite can easily outrun the 240s group and has extremespeed. (which beats scarf Rotom and weavile!)

bluemon I use this set in the rain:

Hurricane / (Thunder / Draco Meteor) / Aqua Tail / Extremespeed @ Life Orb, 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 6 Def Quiet

On a sand team just replace hurricane with fire blast. It can be a DDer too, both sets work. I prefer the immediate power.

 

[Nkululeko]

Hey eggbert, can you please say that to everyone? i love lo dragonite!!!

Seriously-Unthreatening, suicidal, unable to actually KO with special moves and lacking in physical moves... Best d-nite set, even better than bandnite.

I second this, to a lesser degree but still he he has a good point. I only use Dragonite to net a couple quick Dragon Dances or inflict status and heal back to one-time troll defences with Roost. I don't think Dragonite has the offensive power to justify Life Orb when it's best ability requires full health.

EDIT:

Like what? DD Dragonite can easily outrun the 240s group and has extremespeed. (which beats scarf Rotom and weavile!)

bluemon I use this set in the rain:

Hurricane / (Thunder / Draco Meteor) / Aqua Tail / Extremespeed @ Life Orb, 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 6 Def Quiet

On a sand team just replace hurricane with fire blast. It can be a DDer too, both sets work. I prefer the immediate power.

Using Dragonite on a Sand Team with Life Orb. My bad, assumed we'd be working with Multiscale. And although that D-Nite definitely hits pretty hard, it's slow as molasses in June. Without Multiscale, adding in Sand damage and life orb is gonna hurt, but in the Rain it'll be should be a good wallbreaker, although shame to the opponent who gets swept by it.

 

[Eggbert]

It has essentially perfect coverage and anything that can barely tank a hit is finished with e-speed. Multiscale is only supposed to be a one time thing. After it is activated you can still tank alot of hits and by then Dragonite has already ripped part of the team apart. It might not sound amazing in theory but it works really well (remember your opponent is probably expecting something like a weak 44 atk DDer)

Also choice band nite is amazing as well...

 

[Jaetheho]

Like what? DD Dragonite can easily outrun the 240s group and has extremespeed. (which beats scarf Rotom and weavile!)

bluemon I use this set in the rain:

Hurricane / (Thunder / Draco Meteor) / Aqua Tail / Extremespeed @ Life Orb, 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 6 Def Quiet

On a sand team just replace hurricane with fire blast. It can be a DDer too, both sets work. I prefer the immediate power.

does it outspeed alot of pokes? or is that unecessary with multiscale. i can see that hitting REAALY REALLLY hard.

 

[tehy]

There is an all out attacker life orb set, but it sucks

 

[-Tsunami-]

does it outspeed alot of pokes? or is that unecessary with multiscale. i can see that hitting REAALY REALLLY hard.

No it doesn't. It has no speed evs. It's meant to be a wall breaker, not a sweeper, so speed isn't really necessary. It just has to be fast enough to outspeed most walls, and with 80 base speed, Dragonite doesn't need any speed evs to do that.

 

[Nkululeko]

It has essentially perfect coverage and anything that can barely tank a hit is finished with e-speed. Multiscale is only supposed to be a one time thing. After it is activated you can still tank alot of hits and by then Dragonite has already ripped part of the team apart. It might not sound amazing in theory but it works really well (remember your opponent is probably expecting something like a weak 44 atk DDer)

Also choice band nite is amazing as well...

I'm not sure that d-nite is doing much tanking after Multiscale is gone with no significant defensive investment but I'm still wondering about the lack of speed EVs, but it does sound like a great wallbreaker.

 

[Eggbert]

The rain Mixnite is not supposed to outspeed stuff, it takes a hit and KOs back, or forces a switch and deals alot of damage to it. The DDer can run 224 spe and beat pretty much everything in the 240s range (Gliscor, Jirachi, Rotom, Celebi) before a boost, and use multiscale against fast stuff like Thundurus.

I'm not sure that d-nite is doing much tanking after Multiscale is gone with no significant defensive investment but I'm still wondering about the lack of speed EVs.

Things that can't hit it SE aren't going to finish it, like Gengar, Scizor, ect. It beats slow stuff with quiet like Blissey and mixtar but other than that you have to use e-speed to weaken stuff like Latios.

Why's that tehy?