Poison Spikes Discussion

ADH

Poison Spikes haven't been explored much, and with D/P so close I thought we ought to have a discussion on them. They could be very good, but you really have to plan your team to handle enhanced threats.

OU / BL Potential Poison Spikers
#205 Forretress
#452 Drapion

Possibly Useful Poison Spikers
#031 Nidoqueen
#073 Tentacruel
#091 Cloyster
#407 Roserade

Possibly UU Potential Poison Spikers
#049 Venomoth
#139 Omastar

Honorable Mention
#211 Qwilfish

The major threat to Poison Spike teams is Heracross. This almost necessitates a 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def Impish Gliscor since an adamant Guts-activated Heracross still does 45.7% - 53.6% with Stone Edge. If you use a Sand Veil Gliscor that takes Stone Edge mostly out of the picture when paired with Tyranitar or Hippowdon, but you still need to worry about 40.9% - 48.3% from In Fight, but it's still much more manageable. Adding Reflect to the equation cuts In Fight's damage down to 20.3% - 24.0%, making a Reflect Pokemon very attractive on the team.

Heracross aside Poison Spike teams rack up the damage very quickly, and that would be helped by using Drapion as the Poison Spiker. This set could provide excellent support to the team.

Drapion @ Poison Sludge
Nature: Impish (+Def -SAtk)
Trait: Battle Armor
EVs: 176 HP / 156 Def / 176 Spd
-Poison Spikes
-Knock Off
-Poison Stab
-Whirlwind

Knock Off Heracross' Choice Band after laying out the Poison Spikes, even just one layer, and Heracross' damage output drops seriously to 27.4% - 32.2% against Gliscor. After that's taken care of the team shouldn't have much trouble handling Heracross so long as it plays switches properly. This guy even resists Pursuit, to boot, allowing him to get out safely.

Once you have the three fixtures to your team figured out (the Sandstreamer, Gliscor's set, and the Poison Spiker) you need to build the team around them. That's where I have trouble figuring things out since regardless of who you choose for your Sandstreamer and Poison Spiker you have a serious special attack weakness from the three of them, necessitating either Blissey or Registeel with a bulky water to take fire hits.

A ghost could prove useful so that the Poison Spikes can't be Rapid Spinned away. Dusknoir could be very useful for this purpose, but Spiritomb has the added usefulness of not being super-effectived by CB Pursuit.

Any thoughts on Poison Spikes, aside from, "Don't do it," would be appreciated, since I'm trying to make them work right now.
 
Add Cloyster to the Potentially useful Poison Spikers I think, since many were able so semi-decently use Cloyster for Spikes in RSE. I might suggest to add Venomoth to the potential list (at least for UU teams I think) since it has good Speed it can get off a Fast Sleep Powder on things, allowing a Poison Spikes to be Set Up. 90 Base Speed and Timid makes Venomoth 306 Speed, which is certainly good enough to mess around with some slower things. Not that you really want to mess with trying it in the OU enviornment, but... Venomoth is also faster than Heracross and has Psychic available, which could at least potentially hurt heracross some.
 
Making life hard for Blissey would help, stopping it from Belling after a Spin. Or just adding a Ghost would be nice to block spin, that would pretty much eliminate any Blissey problems since even after Belling they'd still be passing into Poison Spikes. Probably passing around Protect and having a bunch of Pokemon who are pretty tough and have recovery to stall with maybe.

Based on your calculations the team would be built as: TTar or Hippo/Gliscor/PSpiker/Blissey + 2 Pokes. In those last two you could have a Ghost I guess (Dusclops2) and maybe a Pokemon who can do a clean-up sweep?
 
Violent Storm said:
Add Cloyster to the Potentially useful Poison Spikers I think, since many were able so semi-decently use Cloyster for Spikes in RSE. I might suggest to add Venomoth to the potential list (at least for UU teams I think) since it has good Speed it can get off a Fast Sleep Powder on things, allowing a Poison Spikes to be Set Up. 90 Base Speed and Timid makes Venomoth 306 Speed, which is certainly good enough to mess around with some slower things. Not that you really want to mess with trying it in the OU enviornment, but... Venomoth is also faster than Heracross and has Psychic available, which could at least potentially hurt heracross some.
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Added both of them, along with Omastar for possibly UU Poison Spiker as well, although that's somewhat dubious with what UU may be.

Added the bit about a ghost to block Rapid Spin.

Edit #2: Blissey's just an example of a special wall, other notables are a careful Registeel combined with a bulky water (Slowbro even works, it doesn't take a helluva lot from AGmence's ineffectives) or Snorlax, but Snorlax isn't too popular right now.
 
ADH said:
Edit #2: Blissey's just an example of a special wall, other notables are a careful Registeel combined with a bulky water (Slowbro even works, it doesn't take a helluva lot from AGmence's ineffectives) or Snorlax, but Snorlax isn't too popular right now.
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Just went with Blissey since it looks like the best choice of Special Walls, heh.
 
Echo said:
Qwilfish needs an honorable mention, because it can also learn the basic Spikes.
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Added Qwilfish as an honorable mention, but Tentacruel outclasses it pretty badly in every respect except being able to lay out normal Spikes and in base attack.
 
Having a rapid spin blocker doesn't seem 100% important, at this point I don't think anyone would bother spinning them away, at least until they figure out you don't have any of the better (worser?) statuses like sleep or burn. Breloom also benefits from being poisoned, but I doubt it'll switch in against poison types.

You don't necessarily need Blissey, if going with a Dorapion/Tentacruel combo. Dorapion blocks Psychic, and Tentacruel scares off most special attackers with the predicted Mirror Coat and takes ~33% (maxHP/maxSPDEF) from CG Salamence. Just be careful with scheming Azelf. With Gliscor and probably some Wish support you're good to go.

Qwilfish isn't meant to be spiking, it'll be like using Beedril or Cacturne...
 
Hm... Drapion/Hippowdon/Gliscor/Dusknoir/Skarmory/Garchomp. Scary stuff right there. Obviously, Dusknoir would be Careful and MAx SDef so it is some semblance of a Special wall. Both Gliscor and Drapion can run Knock Off adding alot of fun to the party. You lose 37.5% switching in, you are Toxic'd, and now you just lost Leftovers. Obviously a lot of set up, but it could be fun.
 
I can actually see this working about half the time with Drapion, and ONLY with Drapion in standard, because it is so fast and learns Knock Off. For those who don't see what's going on here, the EVs that ADH has given Drapion allows it to outspeed adamant Heracross after it switches in, allowing it to Knock Off the choice band before Heracross can attack it. Heracross OHKOs Drapion with Guts Choice Band, but only deals around 229 - 270 with one of the two.

How does this work out with other guts or facade abusers? Other guts users are either slower (Ursaring) or immune to Poison Spikes (Swellow). If we want to talk Quick Feet, Ursaring fails to OHKO Drapion with a CB Facade; deals around 275 - 324 damage, which MAY OHKO as my damage calculator is a little off but has a very low chance of it. You can then Knock Off their choice band. Of course, Stealth Rock and/or Spikes change things a bit.


All that being said, I'm actually going to argue that this strategy is NOT going to work against intelligent users of Heracross or other relevent pokemon. Once they see you Poison Spike, they should immediately assume that Drapion will have Knock Off (this is a smart assumption and loses you nothing if it's incorrect). Instead of getting greedy and switching Heracross in immediately, they should do something to force Drapion to switch out and then bring in Heracross to ruin the party. CB Guts Hera will OHKO Drapion with In-Fight and Megahorn and cannot switch in; good luck now unless you're also carrying Gliscor, because you will need it. If you have Stealth Rock, you can punish Hera's switch-outs against Gliscor and probably deal with Heracross just by consistently adding damage to it every time it switches in. There's interesting opportunities in that direction of poison spike usage for sure.
 
The downside of Poison Spikes is simply the fact that Stealth Rock and Spikes are better. Someone mentioned Cloyster - personally, I'd just use regular Spikes on Cloyster. Same with Forretress (assuming I had something else for Stealth Rock). I would be amused to see an all-out Spikes team, it'd probably look something like Blissey/Skarmory/Gliscor/Forretress/Dusknoir/Tyranitar...
 
Surgo said:
I can actually see this working about half the time with Drapion, and ONLY with Drapion in standard, because it is so fast and learns Knock Off. For those who don't see what's going on here, the EVs that ADH has given Drapion allows it to outspeed adamant Heracross after it switches in, allowing it to Knock Off the choice band before Heracross can attack it. Heracross OHKOs Drapion with Guts Choice Band, but only deals around 229 - 270 with one of the two.

How does this work out with other guts or facade abusers? Other guts users are either slower (Ursaring) or immune to Poison Spikes (Swellow). If we want to talk Quick Feet, Ursaring fails to OHKO Drapion with a CB Facade; deals around 275 - 324 damage, which MAY OHKO as my damage calculator is a little off but has a very low chance of it. You can then Knock Off their choice band. Of course, Stealth Rock and/or Spikes change things a bit.


All that being said, I'm actually going to argue that this strategy is NOT going to work against intelligent users of Heracross or other relevent pokemon. Once they see you Poison Spike, they should immediately assume that Drapion will have Knock Off (this is a smart assumption and loses you nothing if it's incorrect). Instead of getting greedy and switching Heracross in immediately, they should do something to force Drapion to switch out and then bring in Heracross to ruin the party. CB Guts Hera will OHKO Drapion with In-Fight and Megahorn and cannot switch in; good luck now unless you're also carrying Gliscor, because you will need it. If you have Stealth Rock, you can punish Hera's switch-outs against Gliscor and probably deal with Heracross just by consistently adding damage to it every time it switches in. There's interesting opportunities in that direction of poison spike usage for sure.
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I'll argue the devil's advocate position and say that Drapion could possibly still counter the team well by using Whirlwind on switches, which drags out a different Pokemon and poisons them, possibly with Stealth Rock damage (especially with Hippowdon on the team). If you run Hippowdon as the starter and it lays out Stealth Rock that forces 25% damage against Gyarados, Salamence, and plenty of possible counters, and they just get blown out and have a new Pokemon dragged in. If it is Heracross it's dealt 12.5% (Stealth Rock) + 6.25% (Sandstorm) + 6.25% (first turn of bad poisoning), making for an impressive 25% HP loss from just one turn. That type of damage is not uncommon with the setup as well with the main resistors being ground types (who are smart switch-ins to Drapion given STAB Earthquake scares it), but they still take 6.25% + 6.25% (12.5%) damage and get poisoned in the process while being Whirlwinded out.

To do this you need to get Drapion out and at least get one layer of Poison Spikes out, that does 12.5% damage per turn consistently IIRC and still would pose a threat to bulky ground types.

Gliscor makes for the perfect partner to Drapion as well, it's immune to Earthquake and laughs off most attacks that ground types can throw at it, save for Swampert really. Swampert doesn't like being poisoned though and he doesn't usually carry Rest anymore, it seems. Heracross switches force Gliscor out, Drapion resists Pursuit meaning it doesn't take nearly as much damage, Gliscor scares Hera off, all while it's taking ~25% damage each time it just comes out to scare Drapion. I like.

Edit: Misty, I argue that Poison Spikes are in some ways better than regular Spikes since it deals damage while the opponent stays in. It seriously hampers walls and makes for an ideal way to soften up a team relying on close call EV spreads to guard against things like Scheme Azelf, but it really is the best way to stall in D/P IMO. With solid walls to take the hits for threats you can very quickly drain the HP of opponents, and it only takes one turn for Stealth Rock and two turns for Poison Spikes.
 
Misty said:
The downside of Poison Spikes is simply the fact that Stealth Rock and Spikes are better. Someone mentioned Cloyster - personally, I'd just use regular Spikes on Cloyster. Same with Forretress (assuming I had something else for Stealth Rock). I would be amused to see an all-out Spikes team, it'd probably look something like Blissey/Skarmory/Gliscor/Forretress/Dusknoir/Tyranitar...
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In truth, that's exactly what i did with my team
Aero/Forry/Dusknoir/Jolteon/Vaporeon/Crescelia

Yeah, only Forry/Dusk are the same, but it still runs on the same concept. Get those spikes down, and keep switching. (Aero provides SR).

Problem with Dora/Gliscor is that ice attacks hit them both hard. You'll need a good special wall to sponge them.
 
Ae Sakura said:
In truth, that's exactly what i did with my team
Aero/Forry/Dusknoir/Jolteon/Vaporeon/Crescelia

Yeah, only Forry/Dusk are the same, but it still runs on the same concept. Get those spikes down, and keep switching. (Aero provides SR).

Problem with Dora/Gliscor is that ice attacks hit them both hard. You'll need a good special wall to sponge them.
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You always need a good special wall IMO since Azelf and Salamence are such threats. Blissey would fit the bill nicely since it's not weak to anything that either of them carry and that it takes the hits amazingly well while threatening Salamence with Ice Beam and Azelf with TWave. It fits the stallish switching nature of Poison Spikes since it's so good at taking the hits.
 
Sorry, I was rambling a bit in my earlier post as I tend to do. Here's what my conclusion was:

It's definitely an interesting strategy, and one that I would like to try. You do, however, NEED to run Gliscor for damage control against Heracross for an intelligent adversary. I don't think I would ever attempt this strategy without Gliscor.
 
Surgo said:
Sorry, I was rambling a bit in my earlier post as I tend to do. Here's what my conclusion was:

It's definitely an interesting strategy, and one that I would like to try. You do, however, NEED to run Gliscor for damage control against Heracross for an intelligent adversary. I don't think I would ever attempt this strategy without Gliscor.
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Most certainly Gliscor should be run. I'm working on an RMT with this strategy right now and I would run Hippo / Drap / Gliscor as the defensive backbone to the team with Blissey to take special hits. Hippo's rock resist could come in handy provided you fail to Knock Off the CB from Heracross, as it takes even CB Guts Stone Edges like it was nothing. It's a 4-5HKO should you run 196 HP / 112 Atk / 200 Def. To boot it can set up Stealth Rock and just Slack Off damage.

I'll post up the RMT once I'm finished with all the damage calcs and specifics.
 
Surgo said:
Sorry, I was rambling a bit in my earlier post as I tend to do. Here's what my conclusion was:

It's definitely an interesting strategy, and one that I would like to try. You do, however, NEED to run Gliscor for damage control against Heracross for an intelligent adversary.
Click to expand...

given. Especiall since Gliscor is one of the few good users of Knock Off. The only problem I see is either a big Special weak or a big Taunt weak. You could always forgoe using just plain old Spikes, which is probably better for team building. This team might be one where IB/ST/SB/AT Blissey actually works well.
 
Hyra said:
given. Especiall since Gliscor is one of the few good users of Knock Off. The only problem I see is either a big Special weak or a big Taunt weak. You could always forgoe using just plain old Spikes, which is probably better for team building. This team might be one where IB/ST/SB/AT Blissey actually works well.
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Granted there's a lacking of good Knock Off users, but the ones there are help more than enough. I was thinking much the same on the Blissey set as well since Ice Beam threatens dragons and Seismic Toss is so damn stallish with all the damage racking up that it's amazing.

As for Taunt weak, you could always run a Drapion with Poison Spikes / Knock Off / Taunt / Whirlwind to turn the tables. Drapion's faster than both bulky Gyarados and DDtar (both prior to DDing) allowing it to set up the Taunt and keep the opponent from messing with the strategy. In fact, I like that a lot.
 
Ah, and so TSS (Toxic/Sandstorm/Spikes) falls into disuse as we welcome its big brother:

PSSSSR (Poison Spikes/Sanstorm/Spikes/Stealth Rock)

If you could set all of those up, you would wreak havoc. However, Gliscor would be necessary to fend off CBCross and Chomp. I also can't help feeling Tauntridos is a big threat to your Drapion set. (Hey, I'm a poet and I didn't know it!)
 
I think one possible way to use Poison Spikes is in conjunction with speed reduction moves to make sure that the Guts Pokemon that's coming in still won't get the first strike.

I think the main purpose of using Poison Spikes would be not like Spikes which is to damage here and there and put things into KO range. Rather, it'll be about freeing up move slots. Rather than using multiple toxic users, have one Poison Spiker, and then pack things to deal with the levitaters, flyers, steels, poisons, and guts pokemon, which won't be that difficult because you've freed up moveslots on your team.

This may be an instance where you become very glad that so many things learn Aerial Ace (Aggron, etc).
 
Beating Taunt with Taunt is probably not ideal. I would use Thunderpunch on Dusknoir for that. Beating Tyranitar would necessitate Hippowdon...
 
Deucalion2 said:
Ah, and so TSS (Toxic/Sandstorm/Spikes) falls into disuse as we welcome its big brother:

PSSSSR (Poison Spikes/Sanstorm/Spikes/Stealth Rock)

If you could set all of those up, you would wreak havoc. However, Gliscor would be necessary to fend off CBCross and Chomp. I also can't help feeling Tauntridos is a big threat to your Drapion set. (Hey, I'm a poet and I didn't know it!)
Click to expand...


6 turns of setup that Rapid Spin can get rid of :(
 
The main issue with Poison Spikes is that they simply do not work on Poison-types, Steel-types and Flying-types. Each of these has a good number of standards representing them, or even in the possible UU metagame. It also takes you two rounds to really do your thing. If you are only going to get in one round you are wasting a turn and a lot of opportunities to paralyze, sleep, Toxic or burn things.
 
These things are terrible imo. Want to kill that metagross that you brought down to 1%? Want to make it so that heracross stops moving in on your twaves/wil o wisps and stops pwning you? Well now you can....Oh wait, you can't. (poison spikes is just helping everybody that uses heracross.)
 
Poison Spikes certainly has potential, but during the setup turns you could be doing better things. Also, chances are at least half of your opponent's Pokemon are either Steel/Poison typed, flyers or Levitaters, or Poison-benefiting Pokemon such as Guts Heracross or Breloom, making it not as good as it sounds in theory. Meanwhile, Stealth Rock and Spikes hurt almost all of your opponent's Pokemon.
 
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