Swampert for D/P

Maslada

Hey, not used to the forums but a user of smogon and netbattle anyway. Sorry if this has come up but i know search functions for a lot of forums never gives that great results.

To the point:

Like many of you i am busy breeding stuff for D/P and one of my favourite pokemon is swampert. I had been hoping to give it max attack and just go with mixpert only with waterfall and avalanch instead of hydro-pump and ice beam with max attack EV's. I know a lot of people have been planning a similar set, however it is my question why? One of the most common switch ins i see to my swampert on netbattle is skarmory, with all physical moves this will cause even more pain. With hydro-pump i do 50%+ damage.

I was just wondering what your plans are, are you keeping your swampert a mixed attacker or going with full physical? I guess another reason i'm reluctant to change is that it would mean my espyjump can then only pass calm minds to starmie.

Thanks for all replies in advance :)
 
If I were to use Swampert it would definitely be mixed. People who are trying to focus on attack are overrating the effect of EVs anyway. Truth be told, Swampert is going to want max HP and a LOT of Defense anyway, so there really shouldn't be much in attack as it is, which definitely makes the whole argument null.
 
I know this is kind of a tangent, but is anyone considering Bide on Swampert? In DP, Bide is now a priority move (same bracket as Quick Attack, etc), and I think it may always only last two turns now. So, if Swampert can survive two attacks, it'll pretty much OHKO any non-Ghost type.
 
Bide is pointless, best case scenario, you Bide, catch some damage, and then they switch to either a Ghost type or something that will set up on you. ;[
 
Footnote said:
I know this is kind of a tangent, but is anyone considering Bide on Swampert? In DP, Bide is now a priority move (same bracket as Quick Attack, etc), and I think it may always only last two turns now. So, if Swampert can survive two attacks, it'll pretty much OHKO any non-Ghost type.
Click to expand...
They can just use 2 Nasty Plots or Sword Dances instead of attacking.
 
mastadi said:
@up
Bide = Invitation for ghosts and stat-uppers
Click to expand...

Well, I agree it's definitely an invitation for Ghosts. But let's say that your opponent's team either has no Ghosts, or you've KO'ed the one they have. Swampert has so much HP that if it gets hit once, double the damage may be enought to kill whatever its up against. It doesn't matter if they use a stat-up on the second turn of Bide. In fact, they're better off hurting Swampert more at that point.

Well, maybe it's not such a hot idea. Back on topic, I'd make a mixed Swampert, too.
 
Swampert can Counter and Mirror Coat already, both of which are better than Bide for reasons already stated. Hydro Pump and Ice Beam far superior to Waterfall and especially Avalanche anyway, if Swampert had 110 spatk instead and Earth Power I don't think anyone would consider using him physically. The extra 25 base ATK evens things out abit for Hydro Pump, but I don't think I'll ever see why anyone uses Avalanche, especially seeing how "successful" it's fighting counterpart Revenge is.
 
In competitive battling, you should always look at how many turns something costs, how much the possible output is and what your opponent can do to you in the meantime. Bide lasts 2 or 3 turns (iirc), and after your opponent saw it, they will avoid giving you more damage. In a best case scenario they just switch until Bide runs out, and you just did a more complex form of Counter/Mirror Coat. However, it is so easy for opponents to just set up something in your face, or bring in anything with a Grass move for the OHKO or 2HKO.

I'd say you're better off using both Mirror Coat and Counter on your Swampert set than ever using Bide.

Swampert is going to lay down Stealth Rock for a lot of people, STAB Earthquake is a given, and you'll probably just want Surf/Hydro Pump and Ice Beam/Ice Punch in the last slot anyway, kinda like the Advance standard. Protect is nice as well. Surf/Hydro Pump prevent Skarmory and Weezing (both of which seem to be popular) from walling you all eternity, and that's the last thing you'll want.
 
Mekkah said:
In competitive battling, you should always look at how many turns something costs, how much the possible output is and what your opponent can do to you in the meantime. Bide lasts 2 or 3 turns (iirc), and after your opponent saw it, they will avoid giving you more damage. In a best case scenario they just switch until Bide runs out, and you just did a more complex form of Counter/Mirror Coat. However, it is so easy for opponents to just set up something in your face, or bring in anything with a Grass move for the OHKO or 2HKO.

I'd say you're better off using both Mirror Coat and Counter on your Swampert set than ever using Bide.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's pretty situational, I suppose. Even I admit that it won't have any use if it has the possibility of lasting three turns, but I think I heard somewhere that it only lasts two now. One advantage Bide has over Counter and Mirror coat is that it only takes one moveslot and covers both physical and special. But, you'd really only use it if your opponent couldn't kill you in two hits, but double one attack would kill it in one hit.
 
Another trouble with using Bide in general is that Swampert will generally switch in on something that won't be able to do much to it. That Pokemon will switch out, and Swampert will use Bide and give away a free set-up. It's really a flawed move that should never be used.
 
Hmm, you have a point there. I guess they tried to make the move better, but didn't go far enough. Or couldn't without completely changing what it did.
 
I'm really torn on the idea of Mixpert in general. I just don't know what situations the special options of Surf and Ice Beam are clearly better than the physical options of Waterfall and Avalanche. Earthquake is a given, as is, if you're smart, little to no Attack EVs like Misty said. It really comes down to the pokemon that Swampert has anything to do with, and that means both from a countering perspective and what's going to be switching in on Swampert itself. So allow me to go down the threat checklist and try to determine what's really the best option for Swampert; physical or mixed.

First, let's assume:

240HP / 044Atk / 216Def / 008 Spd / 000SpA / 000SpD EVs for
401HP / 267Atk / 297Def / 158 Spd / 187SpA / 216SpD stats, Impish

and

240HP / 000Atk / 216Def / 000 Spd / 052SpA / 000SpD EVs for
401HP / 256Atk / 297Def / 140 Spd / 219SpA / 216SpD stats, Relaxed.

297Def reaches the highest possible magic stat point and is constant for both Impish (+Def, -SpA) and Relaxed (+Def, -Spd), as is 401HP. The Impish one has a decent chance of outspeeding enemy Swampert hence the 8 Spd EVs, but the rest of the (expectedly) few EVs are put into Attack. The Relaxed variant would probably benefit more from putting all of its leftover EVs into SpA, since it has two actual special attacks and the difference between 256Atk and 267Atk is negligable, especially when you reconsider the "purpose" of a Relaxed one and its special attacking capabilities in the first place.

Finally, we can assume EQ/Avalance/Waterfall/filler for Impish and EQ/IB/Surf/filler for Relaxed. That filler's going to be Stone Edge or Protect or actually a filler in Stealth Rock most of the time, but won't really factor in besides on Gyarados and Zapdos, off the top of my head (which is why I'm actually bothering to run through the threat list lol). So here goes.


Tyranitar: Wash, both 2HKO with EQ

Gyarados: Relaxed. This is matchup with possibly the most implications so bear with me. Impish Pert are "more likely" to carry Stone Edge, though HP Electric is an extremely viable option on a Relaxed variant:

Relaxed, 219 SpA Swampert's Hidden Power Electric on a 384HP/236SpD (near-max/min) Gyarados: 50-60%
Relaxed, 219 SpA Swampert's Hidden Power Electric on a 380HP/246SpD (near-max/min) Gyarados: 49-57%
Relaxed, 219 SpA Swampert's Hidden Power Electric on a 332HP/236SpD (4EVs/min) Gyarados: 58-68%


Pretty much always a 2HKO, even on non-bulky versions. Now for the other "filler" in Stone Edge, which both Swampert variants are capable of running:

Relaxed, 256 Atk Swampert's Stone Edge on a 384HP/235Def (near-max/60%) Gyarados: 41-49%
Relaxed, 256 Atk Swampert's Stone Edge on a 380HP/211Def (near-max/25%) Gyarados: 46-55%
Relaxed, 256 Atk Swampert's Stone Edge on a 332HP/194Def (4EVs/min) Gyarados: 58-68%

All percentage ranges are 2% higher from an Impish, 267 Atk Intimidated SE except on 332HP/194 which is 60-71%.


So basically it's clear that accuracy is the issue here (assuming this isn't Wifi where HP Electric is almost out of the question). Stone Edge is pretty much a borderline 2HKO on any bulky variant, however Stealth Rock and Sandstream are factors in Swampert's favor. However, much of this whole issue deals with Intimidate as it pertains to both Gyarados and Salamence, which will very much play out, especially with Bulkier Gyarados.

Relaxed, 256 Atk Swampert's Intimidated Stone Edge on a 384HP/235Def (near-max/60%) Gyarados: 28-33%
Relaxed, 256 Atk Swampert's Intimidated Stone Edge on a 380HP/211Def (near-max/25%) Gyarados: 31-37%
Relaxed, 256 Atk Swampert's Intimidated Stone Edge on a 332HP/194Def (4EVs/min) Gyarados: 39-46%

All percentage ranges are 1% higher from an Impish, 267 Atk Intimidated SE.

So, if Swampert is your best/only Gyarados counter, it would make a lot more sense to run HP Electric as your filler on a therefore Relaxed Swampert for a pretty much guaranteed 2HKO, not Stone Edge and definitely not Protect and Stealth Rock, which Gyarados will happily (angrily?) Taunt. You don't counter pokemon with a 20% of CHing that's equal to your chance of missing...not when Swampert's your best/only Gyarados counter and it can literally be a bit scared by Intimidate if it isn't figuratively by the prospect of countering Gyarados in the first place.


Infernape: Wash, both OHKO with EQ or get owned by Grass Knot

Azelf: Wash. Azelf takes 44-52% from a predicted 219SpA Surf and 45-53% from a predicted 267Atk Waterfall, and while the 60 initial BP of Avalanche will clearly do worse damage than IB, you're not staying in anyway. This is a great example because Azelf's equal Base Def and SpD (70) indicate Waterfall is a very slight favorite over Surf, given what I feel to be, for the reasons stated above, extremely reasonable EV spreads.

Rhyperior: Relaxed. Obviously Surf is better, and Rhyperior is much more likely to invest in Def than SpD anyway. For what it's worth, a 219 SpA Swampert Surf does 95-112% to 434HP/146SpD Rhyperior, while a 267Atk Waterfall does only 58-68% to 434HP/296Def, and both defensive stats are at their respective minimum (assuming max Atk I guess but does it matter lol).

Electivire: Wash, both OHKO with EQ and take the same from HP Grass.

Heracross: Impish. Heracross has 75 Base Def and 95 Base SpD.

Salamence: Relaxed. Much of the reasoning behind this is the same as with Gyarados so I won't reiterate it, but I will say this — Swampert really, really isn't a Salamence counter in DP like it was in Advance.

Togekiss: Impish. Togekiss's 115 Base SpD seal this one...but are you staying in on a Grass Rope capable pokemon with 120 Base Special Attack?

Gengar: Impish. Gengar has 60 Base Def and 75 Base SpD.

Garchomp: Relaxed. A 219 SpA and Garchomp's 359Atk SDed EQ does 68-77%...but it knows it can pretty much SD again if Swampert's switching in on its SD, because what Swampert will have the ~266 SpA necessary to OHKO it with Ice Beam? Avalance does 114-134% from 267 Atk if Swampert takes a hit, and 58-68% if not. A 219 SpA Ice Beam will do 75-88%, meaning if Garchomp's taken any damage it will likely die.

However, you should never, ever switch Swampert into Garchomp unless it's weak as hell and you're at max HP, so Swampert vs. Garchomp should rarely ever play out. I don't like gambling that Garchomp will EQ and give Avalance 120 power though, personally, I just don't think many smart battlers will really think their once SDed EQ will OHKO a max or near-max HP Swampert, and if they do it's because they know they're Adamant and Life Orbed (does 93-109% to 401HP/297Def).

Raikou: Wash, both OHKO with EQ

Lucario: Wash, both OHKO with EQ

Rampardos: Wash, both likely OHKO with EQ

Weavile: Wash, both 2HKO with EQ

Dugtrio: Wash, both OHKO with EQ

Jolteon: Wash, both OHKO with EQ and take the same from HP Grass.

Aerodactyl: Impish, Aero has 65 Base Def and 75 Base SpD

Snorlax: Wash, both EQ or have no business in on Lax without a Roar filler (Curse)

Zapdos: Relaxed. If Zapdos is actually staying in and hitting you with a HP, it's probably Grass and going to do a lot of damage.

Blissey: Wash, both EQ

Sceptile: Relaxed. IB does more on the switch which is obviously the only time Swampert will have anything to do with Sceptile.

Metagross: Wash, both 2HKO with EQ


So...the point of yet another Jumpman Wall of Words? You may be disappointed, but the answer is "it depends on your team", which you don't really need a detailed analysis to have figured out for yourself. Impish is great for Heracross and Togekiss, while Relaxed is great for Rhyperior and Gyarados. But only, in the event of Gyara, if you have HP Electric, which means you're already thinking outside the box and know what your team can and can't handle, which you need to do when deciding on Impish or Relaxed in the first place (, which is why I typed all this lol).

I didn't forget about pokemon like Skarmory or Weezing that Mekkah mentioned, with which Swampert will have to contend even if they aren't technically threats, but I am not sure I care enough about those two to really actually prefer Relaxed to Impish. Weezing owns Swampert every day of the week, especially if it wants to counter Rhyperior with HP Grass and therefore has Swampert covered too. And Skarmory...is 3HKOed by EQ either way with it Feather Rests on a slower STAB EQ user. For what it's worth, 267 Atk does 42.77-50.22% on 334HP/416Def Skarmory (max/max), which means the Relaxed variant can actually better pose the threat of a OHKO with a CH that's more likely every time Skarmory thinks an RBY-esque Recover Loop is a good idea against Swampert.
 
Very interesting analysis. I've been leaning towards physical Swampert myself, but my reasoning was that it'd allow me to up his Defense and Attack rather than the reasons you outlined. It seems I was right, but for the wrong reasons.

Beating Rhyperior more easily and doing some decent damage to Skarmory and Weezing are the only real reasons to go mixed now. Looking at Swampert more as a bulky Ground rather than a bulky Water is more appropriate in DP.
 
I still wonder how the use of Energy Ball/Grass Knot is going to factor into people setting up Swampert, although it could be aruged that eventually you would know what would carry Energy Ball/Grass Knot and thus also what you would want to run from. I guess the question is will there be a need to start to have some SD EVs for Swampert rather than the standard 0 SD EVs such that it can survive some Energy Balls and the like. Although I think most non-stabed or non-Ad Glasses energy ball attacks are a 2HKO on swampert at best, except from the strongest special attackers (I am not quite sure on that tho).
 
Metagross using Grass Knot from 203 Special Attack does 55 - 65% to a 401 HP/216 SDef Swampert. In order to avoid a 2HKO Swampert needs pretty much max special defense EVs, destroying his ability to take on Tyranitar and other physical threats.
 
grass rope and grass moves as a whole are extremly predictable so its not that much of a problem.The only things you really have to scout for are the odd hp grass electrivire that are around and maybe mixed infernarape even though swampert doesn't have a great time switching into infernarapes with or without it.
 
The main reason I'd want Surf/Hydro Pump is not because of offensive threats, but because of Skarmory and Weezing getting free turns otherwise.
 
Swampert is even better this generation because threats such as HP electrics will be breeding for HP ice to beat garchomp and salamence rather than using HP grass. But swampy wont be able to wall special/mixed infernape. Breeding HP electric onto him could make him a valuable gyarados counter as well as being able to deal with skarmory.
 
SePh258 said:
Swampert is even better this generation because threats such as HP electrics will be breeding for HP ice to beat garchomp and salamence rather than using HP grass. But swampy wont be able to wall special/mixed infernape. Breeding HP electric onto him could make him a valuable gyarados counter as well as being able to deal with skarmory.
Click to expand...

Stabbed Surf/Hydro Pump deals with Skarm just fine. I do agree with Hp Electric though.
 
And like I said, I really, really don't think I will care about Skarmory and Weezing in that "bigger spectrum of the metagame" as much as I will about actual threats like Heracross and Gengar.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top