Is max speed absolutely necessary

Status
Not open for further replies.

lmitchell0012

Wi-Fi Blacklisted
On a lot of the common sets found here, people maximize speed IV's just so they can tie with other pokemon in their speed tier. IMO, this is probably the only reason why people use max speed EV's with a lot of the common sets. However, I'd like to change the way we create our sets. Maximizing your speed just so you can tie with other pokemon in your speed tier is a foolish reason to maximize speed. You don't have to outrun everything and a little extra bulk never hurt anyone. I think that from now on, when we create sets, we should try to focus on outspeeding what you know you will ALWAYS outspeed, and the rest should be used towards bulk.

As an example, infernape's base speed is 108. Infernape will NEVER outspeed anything with a base speed higher than his, as he has no means of boosting his speed. Infernape should focus on outspeeding anything with a base speed lower than 108, and put the rest towards bulk. Again, this is just an example, but my point is we should be smarter about how we distribute our EV's. I'd like this thread to be used to suggest sets that don't focus on maximizing speed, and making the most out of your EV's.
 
so you're saying just make ape outspeed the 105 spe tier since he wouldn't want to speed tie the other 108s?
 
We already do this. Look at Infernape analysis for DPPT: because there are few things with 108 speed in DPPT other than Infernape, most sets on the analysis doesn't run max speed.
 
Pwnemon said:
so you're saying just make ape outspeed the 105 spe tier since he wouldn't want to speed tie the other 108s?
Click to expand...

He definitely wants to outspeed base 105's. If the other pokemon in his speed tier didn't focus on max speed, he wouldn't have to worry about outspeeding them either.
 
Infernape does want max speed in order to at least tie with Terrakion, Virizion or other Infernape. And those threats are common enough that you at least want the 50% chance of winning against them.

Also many Pokemon does this, like Jolteon... some aim to outrun Starmies.

And Hydreigon, I've seen some spreads aim to outrun Adamant Lucario or something, so not all threats aim to run max speed.
 
Infernape gains like 2% bulk from investing less in speed.

It is also outsped by every other infernape and terrakion that goes against it.

just use max speed; the gain in bulk is pretty useless.
 
speed creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

Pro Tip: Always run one speed point more than the listed spread suggests

Super Pro tip: always run two more speed points than the listed spread suggest to beat pros ;)
 
AfroThunderRule said:
Infernape does want max speed in order to at least tie with Terrakion, Virizion or other Infernape. And those threats are common enough that you at least want the 50% chance of winning against them.

Also many Pokemon does this, like Jolteon... some aim to outrun Starmies.

And Hydreigon, I've seen some spreads aim to outrun Adamant Lucario or something, so not all threats aim to run max speed.
Click to expand...

If terrakion and virizion had sets that didn't focus on maximizing speed, then he wouldn't have to worry about that as much. Sure, he'd still tie with them, but the remaining EV's would be put to better use.
 
Breludicolo said:
Infernape gains like 2% bulk from investing less in speed.

It is also outsped by every other infernape and terrakion that goes against it.

just use max speed; the gain in bulk is pretty useless.
Click to expand...

That 2% might matter, you never know. I use to use Infernape occasionally to take weak ice beams, hidden powers, ice shards, heck I ever tossed Infernape infront of Scizor a few times.
 
tomtom5858 said:
What sort of Terakion doesn't max out speed? Happy 1000 posts :)
Click to expand...

One with a brain?? JK JK but seriously, if all of the sets in our strategydex focused more on smart EV investing, it could make a huge difference. Maybe it doesn't make a huge difference for infernape and co, but for other pokemon it definitely could.
 
lmitchell0012 said:
If terrakion and virizion had sets that didn't focus on maximizing speed, then he wouldn't have to worry about that as much. Sure, he'd still tie with them, but the remaining EV's would be put to better use.
Click to expand...
I've never seen a Virizion without max speed and most Terrakion run Jolly/Max speed as well (But I do admit that I've seen the few oddball Adamant Terrakion) o_o

You have to assume those two threats run max speed 100% of the time.
 
Speed is pretty much an all-or-nothing stat. Either you have ore than your opponent, you don't, or you tie. With that in mind, whenever a speed tier is contested, what you get out of winning or even tying a speed matchup is often more than you'd get out of a slight increase in power or bulk from investing otherwise, unless that investment goes towards something specific.
 
I once thought the same thing too. It was in a discussion about Weavile. The main reason max speed with a + speed nature is because its to speed tie with the opposing poke that is the same as the current poke. Take that ape example. If ape doesn't run naive / 252 Spe, any other ape beats him and uses Close Combat for a kill. If we didn't max speed, there would be almost no difference in bulk. So say Latios runs enough speed EVs to outspeed base 108s (Musketeers and ape). The difference is like 2 extra points in HP. In other words, you lose more in the trade off. Instead of speed tying, you have only slightly more HP and lose against the same oppsing poke.
 
I ev starmie to beat thundurus and put the rest in bulk. However, that's because not many things occupy he 115 speed tier. On an offensive Pokemon with a common speed tier, such as Terrakion, Latios, or Mamoswine, why would you NOT max speed? Would you let your base 100 Pokemon run les than max speed on an offensive set because you aren't guaranted to outspeed base 100s?
 
Depends who it is. You should always run speed based on speed tiers. Infernape is no longer in a unique speed tier. Instead of trolling base 100s it must now worry about speed tying Terrakion and Virizion. Considering Infernape's laughable defenses. It's going to die to everything that moves, so you want to outspeed as much as possible. With a bulkier pokemon, you can definately run speed to troll a speed tier, although people will eventually catch on and speed creep you, eventually leading to max speed anyways.
 
There are some instances where running max Speed is not necessary. For example, in Gen4 UU, Uxie - a base 95 Speed Pokemon - that wanted to focus on Speed (such as Sub+CM) ran enough Speed to always outpace Timid regular Rotom - a base 91 Speed Pokemon. There was nothing between the two, and the other 95 Speed Pokemon weren't worth Uxie's time to Speed tie (and could often OHKO it anyways).
 
BurningMan said:
speed creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

Pro Tip: Always run one speed point more than the listed spread suggests

Super Pro tip: always run two more speed points than the listed spread suggest to beat pros ;)
Click to expand...

+4 speed points :p
 
Quite frankly, if smogon put more bulky ev's in, those of us who stuck to running max speed would be at a big advantage. It's a case of keeping up with the Jones, but in this case failing to keep up actually has repercussions.
 
Winning a speed tie wins games. It is the most important stat. I would rather win 50% of the time, rather than lose 100% of the time.

This is why we have speed creep in the game of pokemon. Outrunning things is simply that important. The smogon analysis just have to draw a line somewhere and make the standard.
 
Axmaster68 said:
^I agree, but couldn't other pokemon use smarter EV's to further their useablility in battle? Such as bulky sweepers?
Click to expand...
It depends. Even bulky Pokemon can benefit from getting the advantage over other bulky Pokemon at times, although in their cases, there can be more of a threshold where following the creeping Speed investment just isn't worth it.
 
About max speed...
It depends entirely on what speed tier your Pokemon sits on. It also depends on how fast you need your Poke to be. For example, back then, Hydreigon would typically run 280 speed to outrun Adamant/Modest Lucario, but because of the huge increase of usage of Haxorus and Dragonite, it is now a good idea to run max speed. If Haxorus starts running Jolly Max Spe, then in response, Hydreigon should start running Timid Max Spe.
 
Seriously, what's the definition of 'smarter EVs'? Let's take a mon that gets speed crept really often: Gliscor. It has 72 EVs in Speed for the analysis, to outspeed the non-existent Jolly Tyranitar and just about everything else trying to beat that imaginary threat by 1 point. I'm pretty sure 80 EVs are 'standard' by now because people want to be faster than opposing Rotom-W, Gliscor, etc. Is it smarter to increase its bulk? Is it smart to just run 92 EVs to have 0 doubt about winning that 'speed tie'? But having something like 140 EVs are wasteful. When does this stop being smart and start being wasteful?

They have to draw the line somewhere. No one's forcing you to use the analysis' spread. If you feel that the extra speed helps, then use the speed. If you feel that surviving a specific attack with enough health is important, then invest in bulk.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top