np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

[jamashawalker]

Kingdra is actually pretty good in this tier. Especially with ChestoRest, as it basically gives you two Pokemon for the price of one.

I think one Pokemon should be BL in this tier, and that's Hippowdon. It just provides so much free support in this tier and enables Stoutland and co. too much. I can (literally) throw together a Sand team with Hippowdon, some support Pokemon, and some Sand abusers and break 1400 on the UU ladder. That shouldn't happen. Even if I play poorly I can win with Sand on my team, simply because it's either "play with Sand or lose to Sand" in this meta. There is one other auto-Weather in this metagame and that's Hail, and Sand just outright dominates Hail so badly that it's laughable.

Sure, Aboma can switch into Hippowdon. But it's taking 25-50% on the switch plus it has to switch into either Toxic, Earthquake, or Roar, all of which will cause even more damage to the Christmas tree. Since it has no reliable recovery, Abomasnow gets about 2-4 safe switch-ins per match while Hippowdon can easily get ten+. Hippowdon's immense physical bulk, access to Roar to stop set-up Pokemon, Toxic to wear down bulky Pokemon, and Slack Off to basically prevent the opponent from wearing down Hippowdon.

Even statusing the hippo doesn't work because Hippo can just come in, change the weather, use Slack Off, and leave. In that time Toxic will have done a massive 6.25% total damage and Burn will do a whopping 12.5% thanks to Leftovers and (rather obvious) Sandstorm immunity.

In the end, playing against Sand in UU is almost impossible, and that's Hippowdon's fault. I don't like having to ban things, but Hippowdon is just too good to be UU. BL, please.

I agree with Godsend..probably gotta wait awhile for people to adjust..whenever i face a non-sandstorm team, I always check to see if they are prepared for a sandtorm team and most of the time they are not..Most teams are stoutland weak with only 1 counter/check to stoutland, to be honest does anyone expect that to be good with the popularity? I am curious how have people been countering Sandstorm teams(mostly Hippoland combo) I've been using torterra+random sunny day..and it has proven to be successful

haha and when you say i can "literally throw a sand team together" you probably mean a team like this..(which i said before)

Hippowdown/Stoutland/Alakazam/Spiker(roserade,quilfish)/filler/filler

That has been like the simple bread and butter for sand teams. I agree playing against this strategy is really difficult, but not impossible

Rain Dance teams can clown all over Sand Teams, even without perma. I don't know if anyone is having really high success rates as far as laddering, but in the game its quite effective. Hippo will be weak to most of yr mons STABs, so you can usually get him out easier or scare him from switching in.

Overall, Hippowdon's sand is just as good as Hippopotas, just he's bigger. Overall, you still mostly have that 'useless' slot for the auto weather, and Stoutland and 4 other mons. Basically, Hippoutland makes so much sense it's ignorant not to make use of it.

Actually that is not true for both of your claims...Rain teams are obvious easy to see from team preview so people arent going to recklessly play their hippodown. Yes it is weak to alot of the STABs which is why it probably wont switch into any of them..Also Rain teams are offensive so good luck taking a CB return from Stoutland..yeah rain teams have their bulky pokes to set up rain, but they are all for the most part 2HKOed...and omastar+kabutops are the only two who can take 1 hit of CB return, but defintely not a wild charge, which would not be a bad idea if you see the opponent running alot of water types..also setting up rain is much more difficult than actually setting up sand.. Rain-switch in+ Rain dance/ Sand- switch in....yeah Rain MIGHT have type advantage on paper, i emphasize MIGHT because the opponent still has 4 other pokes he could rain which probably just the 4 pokes could counter a rain team..i'm not saying that rain teams can't beat sandstorm teams, but they defintely do not shit all over sand teams..

Hippodown is not a waste of moveslot..he's still an amazing physical wall with defenses better than skarmory...He pairs amazingly well with stoutland not only for his support from sand, but also because it can wall most physical attacks aimed at stoutland if someone knows stoutland can't KO...Even Kd24 has shown that a CB hippodown hits like a truck..as we all forgot about its 112 attack power and pretty wide attacking movepool..univested EQ or Stone edge coming from this thing will hurt if not resist or decent defenses...heck you dont even need to make a sandstorm team and you can add this to your team with great success

 

[breh]

yeah, hippowdon is not a waste of a teameslot. there's a noticeable difference between it and hippopotas (I played sand before the hippo drop); hippowdon has far higher attack (112, for a wall, is very respectable) as well as Special Defence that can actually take a beating with enough HP investment.

 

[SJCrew]

All sand teams are essentially same. It makes building them easier but also makes preparing for them easier. It's not like one goes up without the other in this case.

Ladder would have you believe there is only one type of Sand team getting it done out there, but I have a folder full that says otherwise. They all win pretty consistently. You have your auto-offense check and a defensive behemoth on your side with four free teamslots to be as creative as you want. Fear nothing. Stoutland is just too hard to check without Hippowdon punishing you for it.

 

[Banedon]

Agree with SJCrew, sand teams are not the same. I just played one that almost swept me completely with Shell Smash Omastar who, come to think of it, is a fantastic sweeper that I almost never see. Why?

It seems to me that the top of the ladder is dominated by sand teams at the moment, although hail is still viable in spite of the anti-hail powerhouses now in UU (Machamp, Darmanitan, Chandelure). @jamashawalker, one of my more successful teams at the moment is a hail team, and it's had several good battles vs. sand so far. One thing to note about hail vs. sand is that sand tends to have few Ice resists, so with enough Ice Beams and Blizzards sand will crumble. Of course, the reverse is also true: with enough Stone Edges and Rock Blasts, hail will crumble. But Pokemon like Rotom-F and Glaceon can spam Scarf Blizzard far easier than any common Pokemon can spam Scarf Stone Edge (Flygon I guess, but it doesn't get STAB and it can't switch into hail spam either). Hippowdon cannot switch into Blizzard and dies to Ice Beam too, and as long as the weather is hailing Stoutland is powerless. The games tend to be closely contested, but hail has a fighting chance.

Toxic Spikes are pwning the tier at the moment; there's like one common grounded Pokemon out there and that's Roserade. In the meantime, so many of the top threats in the metagame, such as Stoutland, are vulnerable to Toxic Spikes. At this point I think that as long as you have a spinblocker / the other team has no spinner + the other team has no TSpikes absorber, it is worth starting out 5v6 if you get both layers down. I guess that too is one reason why Roserade is so common.

 

[alexwolf]

Kingdra is actually pretty good in this tier. Especially with ChestoRest, as it basically gives you two Pokemon for the price of one.

I think one Pokemon should be BL in this tier, and that's Hippowdon. It just provides so much free support in this tier and enables Stoutland and co. too much. I can (literally) throw together a Sand team with Hippowdon, some support Pokemon, and some Sand abusers and break 1400 on the UU ladder. That shouldn't happen. Even if I play poorly I can win with Sand on my team, simply because it's either "play with Sand or lose to Sand" in this meta. There is one other auto-Weather in this metagame and that's Hail, and Sand just outright dominates Hail so badly that it's laughable.

Sure, Aboma can switch into Hippowdon. But it's taking 25-50% on the switch plus it has to switch into either Toxic, Earthquake, or Roar, all of which will cause even more damage to the Christmas tree. Since it has no reliable recovery, Abomasnow gets about 2-4 safe switch-ins per match while Hippowdon can easily get ten+. Hippowdon's immense physical bulk, access to Roar to stop set-up Pokemon, Toxic to wear down bulky Pokemon, and Slack Off to basically prevent the opponent from wearing down Hippowdon.

Even statusing the hippo doesn't work because Hippo can just come in, change the weather, use Slack Off, and leave. In that time Toxic will have done a massive 6.25% total damage and Burn will do a whopping 12.5% thanks to Leftovers and (rather obvious) Sandstorm immunity.

In the end, playing against Sand in UU is almost impossible, and that's Hippowdon's fault. I don't like having to ban things, but Hippowdon is just too good to be UU. BL, please.

I don't know if this is a fact but even if it is,it is ok because of 2 things.First because people are underprepared for Stoutland and second if a strategy is easy to use doesn't mean it is broken.
Some pokes and strategies will always be easy to use and succeed with(see Drizzle teams in OU)but this doesn't mean there is a problem with them...

Also in your Hail vs Sand discussion i have to say this.Aboma may be weak to entry hazards and without reliable recovery BUT how the hell is Hippo supposed to switch in a team that half of its users at least can ohko him with Blizzard???

 

[jamashawalker]

Agree with SJCrew, sand teams are not the same. I just played one that almost swept me completely with Shell Smash Omastar who, come to think of it, is a fantastic sweeper that I almost never see. Why?

Most likely Doodles(scoppa) team... He's been the only one I've seen use that strategy in sandstorm really..lol you werent the only victim..that omastar has swept teams with too much ease..I agree, why isn't it used that much?

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

encore + sash makes alakazam absurdly powerful and difficult to take out.

 

[LonelyNess]

Wanna know what's ruining the tier stop looking at Alakazam and Hippowdon and maybe start looking at how easy it is to get double hazards up with spikes users such as Roserade, Froslass, and Deoxys-D.

That and how spinning is an absolute joke to do in this tier.

 

[Moo]

encore + sash makes alakazam absurdly powerful and difficult to take out.

Sub LO + 3 attacks is miles better, it's alot more powerful and just as powerful to take out, because you need something faster than 372 or something that can take any hit from it and KO back. If it gets a free sub up, you're in pretty big trouble

 

[Heysup]

The threat of focus sash is far more threatening for an offensive team. If I can't kill it, it's going to kill me. Focus Sash prevents me from killing it, so it's very clearly going to kill something of mine.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

Timely encoring a (very) predictable sucker punch buys you at least one free turn to switch and setup. I'll take that over a sub set any day.

Also switching in to a chandelure the turn that it uses sub/cm, you just cost it 25% and forced it out.

 

[czechm8]

I'm surprised weavile is used at little as he is. Granted he can't take a hit to save his life but he's a solid check to alakazam, tornados, chandy, Flygon, and a ton of other common pokes. If he gets in on almost nothing on sand teams can switch into a CB ice punch without taking some hefty damage. Rocks really need to be kept off the field thouh.

 

[Upstart]

Wanna know what's ruining the tier stop looking at Alakazam and Hippowdon and maybe start looking at how easy it is to get double hazards up with spikes users such as Roserade, Froslass, and Deoxys-D.

That and how spinning is an absolute joke to do in this tier.

This is so true has has been present since the beginning of fifth gen UU and even 4th gen UU(See frosslass's ban and roserade's rise to OU but would have been banned anyway). The difficulty in spinning rises from the spinners inability to threaten the ghosts. Granted foresight and status will be a hinderance to the ghost. But merely a hinderance will not be spin the hazards off the field. Due to this spike stacking both offensively and defensively is a vey effective strategy. I personal find that the best way to get rid of hazards is to not let them be set be it by offensive pressure or taunt. Hypothetically if this was broken what would you ban to balance the meta? spikes? individual pokemon?

In regards to Alakazam, I still believe that he is broken. The sash set is particularly effective against offensive teams. The ability to avoid a KO typically leads to the death of at least one or two pokemon if not a full sweep as frail offensive teams can't handle the high octane attack of Alakazam. Unfortunately the first to die is typically the scarfer, who tried in vain to take out Alakazam only for him to hold on. Thus on an offensive team one needs to resort to revenge killing by another scarfer(two scarfers are pretty rare on one team), something naturally faster then Zam(few options as Zam sports base 120 speed) or priority. Priority is probably the best option to handle Zam's frail constitution. Note that his scenario turns out the same with a priority dying as he activates the sash and the scarfer finishing. Thus the offensive team inherently has trouble with Zam as Zam is guaranteed a KO on offensive teams.
Despite the benefits of sash Alakazam, I find that LO Zam with 3 attacks and sub/encore is the best set. I play this variation of Zam as a wall breaker rather then a sweeper most of the time with the intention of punching holes in teams to allow other members of the team to flourish. This is especially easy when Zam hits many types for super effective damage with 135 base SpA bolstered by LO. Substitute eases prediction and makes revenging must more difficult. It along with encore allow Zam to mess up and even avoid sucker punchers. Substitutes are also very easy to obtain as Zam forces a good number of switches through its ability to KO and greatly damage. Due to Zam's ability to act as an offensive sweeper and a phenominal supporter by wall breaking, I believe that Zam should be BL.

 

[CrazyBacon]

Wanna know what's ruining the tier stop looking at Alakazam and Hippowdon and maybe start looking at how easy it is to get double hazards up with spikes users such as Roserade, Froslass, and Deoxys-D.

That and how spinning is an absolute joke to do in this tier.

Agreed, add qwilfish too that list to. its easy to set up some rocks and then start loading the field with spikes. usually they will switch too donphan/blastoise/hitmontop which can spin vs qwilfish but thats when you use explosion and take off anywhere from 40-60% of the spinners health. Rapid spin then fails too hit and then you send in something that can easily KO the poke (ie roserade vs donphan) and they either have too switch or lose there spinner. Either way you've prevented them from spinning which is a pain in the butt.

Furthermore most spinners cant do jack against ghosts. I'm running a 252/160atk/96def impish donphan with assurance and it can 2HKO mismagius with it dealing 55.7% - 66.4%, whilst still retaining some decent bulk, stoutlands CB return is a 3HKO but i;m dealing ~50% back so with some hazards I can kill it.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

Hariyama is also very underrated in this meta.

Standard guts set with an orb and fake out/cc/payback/bullet punch can provide decent insurance against the likes of frail scarfers/alakazam.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Well, I think Alakazam's really good, but broken might be a little too much. It has counters and viable checks such as Spiritomb (just spam Pursuit), Sableye (barring the rare Calm Mind Alakazam), and Chansey (Probability of Focus Blast hitting three times in a row= 34.3%). If you predict badly and end up Psychicing/Shadowballing/Focus Missing a Weavile, gg Alakazam. Also remember that the Focus Sash set does not have a Life Orb boosting its attacks, so bulky Waters can actually beat Alakazam.

 

[Xephyr]

Well, I think Alakazam's really good, but broken might be a little too much. It has counters and viable checks such as Spiritomb (just spam Pursuit), Sableye (barring the rare Calm Mind Alakazam), and Chansey (Probability of Focus Blast hitting three times in a row= 34.3%). If you predict badly and end up Psychicing/Shadowballing/Focus Missing a Weavile, gg Alakazam. Also remember that the Focus Sash set does not have a Life Orb boosting its attacks, so bulky Waters can actually beat Alakazam.

The problem is that the three Pokemon you listed are absolutely horrible in this tier right now overall. Packing them just to counter Alakazam is just a bad idea.

 

[Drifloon]

Fuck Zam, get that son of a bitch out of this tier. It's so easy to sweep with that asshole it's not even funny. Every sand team looks the same and you can't do shit about that Alakazam without Spiritomb/Sableye/Chansey(lol) or priority. Alakazam also resists Mach Punch so TechniTop will do diddyshit to it. It can 2HKO a fucking Suicune. I mean honestly.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Alakazam also resists Mach Punch so TechniTop will do diddyshit to it

Technitop's Mach Punch: 41.7% - 49.2%
Technitop's Fake Out: 56% - 65.9%
Technitop's Fake Out+Mach Punch: 97.5%-115.1%

Complete diddyshit.

(Alakazam does not have any Physical Defense to speak of. Most Physical resisted attacks 2KO Alakazam)

It can 2HKO a fucking Suicune.

Alakazam LO Psychic vs. physically defensive Suicune: 43.1% - 50.7%

A 2KO if you get really lucky. Otherwise you just get PP stalled by Pressure. If you want a little more security run a little Special Defense on Suicune. It won't kill you.

the three Pokemon you listed are absolutely horrible in this tier right now

If something (Spiritomb) counters the top Special sweeper in the tier , it's not absolutely horrible. Chansey isn't horrible, but isn't great either. It's still the best support Pokemon in the tier with full-healing Wishes, Stealth Rock, and Aromatherapy. Sableye shits on Stoutland as well, making it an enormous problem for Sand. Definitely not shit.

 

[GTS]

Actually that is not true for both of your claims...Rain teams are obvious easy to see from team preview so people arent going to recklessly play their hippodown. Yes it is weak to alot of the STABs which is why it probably wont switch into any of them..Also Rain teams are offensive so good luck taking a CB return from Stoutland..yeah rain teams have their bulky pokes to set up rain, but they are all for the most part 2HKOed...and omastar+kabutops are the only two who can take 1 hit of CB return, but defintely not a wild charge, which would not be a bad idea if you see the opponent running alot of water types..also setting up rain is much more difficult than actually setting up sand.. Rain-switch in+ Rain dance/ Sand- switch in....yeah Rain MIGHT have type advantage on paper, i emphasize MIGHT because the opponent still has 4 other pokes he could rain which probably just the 4 pokes could counter a rain team..i'm not saying that rain teams can't beat sandstorm teams, but they defintely do not shit all over sand teams..

Hippodown is not a waste of moveslot..he's still an amazing physical wall with defenses better than skarmory...He pairs amazingly well with stoutland not only for his support from sand, but also because it can wall most physical attacks aimed at stoutland if someone knows stoutland can't KO...Even Kd24 has shown that a CB hippodown hits like a truck..as we all forgot about its 112 attack power and pretty wide attacking movepool..univested EQ or Stone edge coming from this thing will hurt if not resist or decent defenses...heck you dont even need to make a sandstorm team and you can add this to your team with great success

you just said my statement wasn't true and proceeded to repeat what I said. Stoutland is irrelevant to my point, the reason I was saying rain clowns sand is because without sand, stoutland is a joke, and i've personally laughed in the face of many a stoutland who switch right into my rain dance turn.

yes, its obv harder, but its extremely anti-metagame in this sand infested arena, so its theoretically effective.

but, yeah Don has decent attack, but I rarely find myself trying to attack with him. His EQ is predictable, and I don't usually trust Stone Edge and especially not on a dedicated attacker. Stone Edge on Kabutops is another story.

And he does have defense too, but he is weak both ice and water which are not only extremely common, but frequently special attacks. Don is not as useless as Potas, for sure, but at least for me, they are both just RockPhasers who can serve as a punching bag. Just Don can take a few more punches.

 

[Xephyr]

If something (Spiritomb) counters the top Special sweeper in the tier , it's not absolutely horrible. Chansey isn't horrible, but isn't great either. It's still the best support Pokemon in the tier with full-healing Wishes, Stealth Rock, and Aromatherapy. Sableye shits on Stoutland as well, making it an enormous problem for Sand. Definitely not shit.

So you're trying to say Spiritomb is viable because it counters one Pokemon (and not even that reliably because it can't switch in as Shadow Ball 2kos), and you're also trying to say Sableye is viable because it counters one Pokemon (what's it doing to Roserade? Milotic? Suicune? etc). If Pokemon were good for countering only one good Pokemon, then why isn't Weezing OU because it counters Scizor like a God? Chansey gets raped by practically everything that's popular in the tier, including and especially Chandelure (sub CM? Here, take your +6!), so that thing's not good either. So I'll go ahead and keep my argument that Spiritomb, Sableye, and Chansey are all bad. At least Sableye can fuck up Stoutland and Rhyperior as you said though I suppose.

 

[Banedon]

Also remember that the Focus Sash set does not have a Life Orb boosting its attacks, so bulky Waters can actually beat Alakazam.

252 SpA Timid Focus Sash Alakazam Grass Knot vs. 252/0 Suicune: 49.5% - 58.4%
252 SpA Timid Focus Sash Alakazam Grass Knot vs. 252/0 Blastoise: 47.5% - 56.4%
252 SpA Timid Focus Sash Alakazam Grass Knot vs. 252/0 Milotic: 47.2% - 55.8%

With Focus Sash, Alakazam won't have Substitute, so it can feasibly a 4-attack variant which will include Grass Knot.

@Xephyr - I can't see Spiritomb and Sableye being very useful either, but not so sure about Chansey. SubCM Mismagius too set up on Chansey, didn't make Chansey any less good last round. You just have to use a different Pokemon to wall it. Real problem with Chansey imo is that so many of the new threats chop it to little pieces, it's easily worn down and since Alakazam has Magic Guard + Chansey no Pursuit, it can switch out and come back in later with full health ...

 

[alexwolf]

So you're trying to say Spiritomb is viable because it counters one Pokemon (and not even that reliably because it can't switch in as Shadow Ball 2kos), and you're also trying to say Sableye is viable because it counters one Pokemon (what's it doing to Roserade? Milotic? Suicune? etc). If Pokemon were good for countering only one good Pokemon, then why isn't Weezing OU because it counters Scizor like a God? Chansey gets raped by practically everything that's popular in the tier, including and especially Chandelure (sub CM? Here, take your +6!), so that thing's not good either. So I'll go ahead and keep my argument that Spiritomb, Sableye, and Chansey are all bad. At least Sableye can fuck up Stoutland and Rhyperior as you said though I suppose.

Shadow Ball never 2hkoes max HP Spiritomb.
Also Spiritomb does more than countering one poke.
Stop exaggerating so much.I am not defending Spiritomb,but yours claims are absurd.
Also Chansey is an ok UU poke that can wall many stuff and offer great support.Of 'course some things setup on it or outright 2hko it,but gues what every poke has faults.
Stop making it like Chansey,Spiritomb and Sableyre are terrible pokes in UU 'cause they are not.

 

[Upstart]

So you're trying to say Spiritomb is viable because it counters one Pokemon (and not even that reliably because it can't switch in as Shadow Ball 2kos), and you're also trying to say Sableye is viable because it counters one Pokemon (what's it doing to Roserade? Milotic? Suicune? etc). If Pokemon were good for countering only one good Pokemon, then why isn't Weezing OU because it counters Scizor like a God? Chansey gets raped by practically everything that's popular in the tier, including and especially Chandelure (sub CM? Here, take your +6!), so that thing's not good either. So I'll go ahead and keep my argument that Spiritomb, Sableye, and Chansey are all bad. At least Sableye can fuck up Stoutland and Rhyperior as you said though I suppose.

I will concur with chansey and spiritomb being under par in terms of the rest of the tier, however Sableye is in no way in the same category. Sableye fairs pretty well against milo, suicune, and roserade as he can taunt them to prevent healing/ status/ set up, burn them, or switch to another member once taunted to take scalds. All while being able to heal off damage of his own. Now if you asked what sableye is doing against Darmanatan/ fire types, then I would concede that you have found checks. Unfortunately outside of that, sableye is a very solid pokemon able to cripple physical sweepers with WoW, taunt stall, recover, all while having decent special bulk. The primary way around him is very smart playing and hitting very hard with special attacks or hoping for Will o miss.

 

[Machi]

and you're also trying to say Sableye is viable because it counters one Pokemon (what's it doing to Roserade? Milotic? Suicune? etc).... So I'll go ahead and keep my argument that Spiritomb, Sableye, and Chansey are all bad. At least Sableye can fuck up Stoutland and Rhyperior as you said though I suppose.

Sableye probably won't stay too long against the bulky waters and Roserade you mentioned but it can at the very least taunt on the switch in, or if they're bulky waters usually can take one hit then taunt and switch out. Preventing them from setting up or using a recovery move. Which is quite useful, especially against Roserade as you can keep the pressure against them.

Sableye does more than screw over the two sand threats you mentioned it can also deal with Hippowdon quite well with WoW+Taunt or basically any physical attacking pokemon that doesn't benefit or is immune to burns. It also acts as a pretty good spin blocker, taunting to prevent SR-foresight-toxic from Top/Donphan. Finally, my personal favorite is that it screws over obvious BP chains and evolite stallers. Sableye definitely has a lot more utility than you're making it out to lack.

Edit: Ninjask'd on the first part.