np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

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Yeah, Froslass is an absolute Bullshit Cloak abusing machine. It's not only good for setting up Spikes. First, it spams Thunder Wave and waits for the 40% of the time when you can't attack. Then it Subs up and either gets a minimum of two Blizzards off or a minimum of two Spikes off. I have played against Froslass numerous times on the ladder, and almost 100% of the time Froslass WILL get three layers of Spikes down. If you have to switch to defeat Froslass, it is almost impossible to prevent three layers.

I'm not saying Froslass is broken, (because frankly it's not) but that's only because of the pretty broken Sand keeping it in check. Hail teams, Froslass abusers or not, generally lose to Sand teams simply because it's incredibly trucking easy to set up Spikes in this metagame. Spinning is hard as balls since every team either has a Ghost, enough offensive pressure to just rape the Spinners, or both.

Okay, Chandelure can be used defensively. Why the hell would you WANT a defensive Chandy though. It's not a great Pokemon; it's a lot like using defensive Starmie. Sure it's viable (barely), but that doesn't make it good.

Also, in this metagame 60% becomes a lot because of the ease of setting dual hazards. It is so common in this metagame, as opposed to OU where you can spin pretty easily, not only to switch into SR but also to switch into a layer of Spikes. And possibly bad weather since every other damn team is Hippowdon+Spiker+Sweepers+Bulkymon.

Let's look at the condition that your opponent has a Hippowdon. That means there is a ~100% chance Sand and SR is up:

Milotic Scald: 72% - 85.8% 100% OHKO with SR and Sandstorm
Slowbro / Slowking Scald: 72% - 85.8% 100% OHKO with SR and Sandstorm
Suicune Scald: 66.7% - 78.9% Possible OHKO with SR and Sandstorm
Blastoise Scald: 64.4% - 75.9% Improbable OHKO with SR and Sandstorm

Not only that, but using Chandelure here sacrifices your spinblocker to kill the opponent's bulky Water. In the game of chess that is UU, a spinblocker is so much more important than a bulky Water (unless your opponent has a Blastoise in which it would be okay to sac Chandy to kill it). A bulky Water insures your team against powerful (usually Physical) assaults, but most teams have two bulky Pokemon anyway. However two spinblockers on the same team? Pretty rare. That's why it's so important to conserve your Spinblocker because letting your opponent Spin is fatal to your momentum; especially in a metagame where entry hazards can do upwards of 120% total damage to the opponent's team.

I got >120% because five Pokemon switching into two layers. Not only plausible, but probable.


Also, I love the new method seemingly everyone (besides jrrrrrrr) uses: Disregard all checks to the Pokemon and focus only on the number of 100% counters to the Pokemon. If less than 3 or 4 Pokemon can fully stop every conceivable set that the suspect uses than it's broken. -___-
 
jrrrrrrr said:
So your magic uncounterable Chandelure set is Sub/CM/Fire Blast/Shadow Ball/Energy Ball/Hidden Power Fighting/Trick/Pain Split, @Leftovers/Balloon/Lum Berry/Salac Berry/Choice Scarf and Choice Specs, with Flame Body and Flash Fire abilities?

Unless you can show us one Chandelure set that breaks the metagame, you are effectively arguing that ANY competitive Chandelure set can break the metagame, which obviously isn't true. They all have their counters, and they are all reasonable accommodations to make in the tier. You're moving the goalposts.
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The situation is this: imagine your opponent switches Chandelure in safely vs. a Pokemon that cannot threaten it or it can force out. This is not unimaginable: Chandelure has decent immunities, resists and defensive stats. You have to decide who to go to. What is your choice?

In this situation there is only one Pokemon that will not instantly give up a big advantage to Chandelure, and that is Snorlax (and Regirock + Cradily in sand, I guess). Everything else is vulnerable. This doesn't make Pokemon like Houndoom any less of a check, but it does make Houndoom not a counter.

Like I said, I'm not convinced Chandelure is broken, but arguing that it isn't broken because it has a lot of counters is just plain wrong.

@above - Chandelure's main selling point as a defensive Pokemon is its auspicious typing. SR weakness on a defensive Pokemon is not good, but it does have crucial immunities as well as strong resistances, not to mention its unpredictability. The first time Chandelure switches in, you can't tell what it's going to do next other than maybe see it has Leftovers. But there are a lot of viable Chandelure sets with Leftovers. And if you guess the wrong set, your team suffers ... potentially seriously.
 
I appreciate the efforts to push my beloved shandara back to OU where I feel it deserves to belong, but facts are facts. Snorlax is the bar none best counter to chandelure there is. You can walk through potential checks with an HP, but Snorlax is immune to shadow ball and resists fire. HP fighting is pathetically weak to its mammoth HP+SPdef. And snorlax OHKOs with pursuit. Also, porygon2 is the second best counter if chandelure has flash fire. If you run flame body to kill pory2, you open up being weak from the fire attack spammers in the tier (victini, darmani, chandelure) and lose that CRUCIAL switch in ability. The immunity very much helps. And then, something like weavile outspeeds modest scarf chandelure at max speeds, and pursuits or nigh slashes. (Weavile also handles froslass).

-If chandelure runs specs, it's outsped.
-If chandelure runs sub/cm, it's outsped.
-If chandelure runs scarf, it makes 2HKO's and 3HKOs instead of OHKOs and 2HKOs.

and
And if you guess the wrong set, your team suffers ... potentially seriously.
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You can literally give this argument for any pokemon in the game. Anything.
"If you dont play well, you can lose."
 
Flame Body isn't as bad as you make it out to be. You can burn attackers as they break a Sub for example, and it basically guarantees that you'll get a free Sub (and possibly Calm Mind) up if your opponent has a Porygon2 because they will always switch in and switch out immediately after. You do lose the immunity, but because Chandelure could equally be running Flash Fire, you can psych your opponent out. Certainly (good players using) Darmanitan, Victini, etc are less likely to use their Fire STABs if you have a Chandelure. Sure you can't switch Chandelure into Darmanitan, but how is your opponent going to know? You could equally be overpredicting their Earthquake / Rock Slide and therefore make the safe switch to Suicune for example. They have no way to tell what ability your Chandelure is using either until you've already gained an advantage (burned something with Flame Body, baited Porygon2 to switch in, etc).

Weavile can check Chandelure, but like the others it isn't a counter.

Finally there are plenty of Pokemon out there for which you can guess the wrong set and still be fine. Example: Flygon. If Flygon switches in on my CB Rhyperior's Earthquake, I can always switch in Slowbro. The most common Flygon set is Scarf, and the worst move that Flygon can make is U-turn, but Regenerator means I can switch out afterwards and still be unscathed. If Flygon attacks with Earthquake or Outrage, I can recover and hit back with Scald. If it's something really unconventional like mixed Life Orb with Giga Drain (happened to me once) it doesn't hit hard enough to kill and I can switch Slowbro out to something that can handle Flygon, such as Scarf Heracross. The uncertainty did dent my team, but it did not destroy it.

Against this if Chandelure switches in and you go to Porygon2 only to learn he has Flame Body, you give him a free Sub. Now something really is going to get hurt - Fire + Ghost has good coverage after all. There are few Pokemon that can switch into Chandelure safely already, and switching into Chandelure behind a Sub is even more difficult. You are almost forced to take serious damage and possibly lose a Pokemon, which opens up holes in your team.

Chandelure's unpredictability is a lot more significant than Flygon's unpredictability. Guess the wrong set against Flygon and you should still be OK. Slightly hurt, but OK. Guess the wrong set against Chandelure, and you can easily lose a Pokemon.
 
@ Jrrrr/others with this argument

There's been at least one Pokemon that set dangerous precedents for banning the infamous X/Y/Z/A/B/C moveset with 252/252/252/252/252/252 EVs and X/Y/Z/A/B/C item from last gen (Cresselia, debatable case of Raikou). The reasoning was that the sets counters were too different to prepare for.

I 100% disagree with this reasoning, but I was literally the only one who voted against it last gen so I doubt much has changed. The only person that voted against it.

Chandelure is very similar to Cresselia in particular since the counters between its offensive set and defensive set are so different and yet they still have a number of hard counters. I didn't consider Cresselia broken nor do I consider Chandelure broken, though Chandelure is definitely more dangerous than Cresselia was.....
 
I actually think Chandelure is just an overall tough Pokemon to use. Too many checks, some solid outright counters (that are very popular now), Pursuit weakness, and it basically requires both Rapid Spin and good prediction to get in easily, just because of all its weaknesses. It's also a terrible spinblocker, with every conceivable spinner destroying him with ease, save for Hitmontop. If you really want to use it, plan on doing a lot of 50/50. "Will my opponent use a Fire move or U-turn out?" "Will Donphan use Rapid Spin or Earthquake?" "Should I Fire Blast this Registeel or let Flygon get in for free?"

Things of that nature. You see his 145 base Sp. Att and assume "oh shit, this thing is dangerous", and he is, but the list of things wrong with him and ways to beat him, I can assure you, is much, much larger.
 
SJCrew said:
I actually think Chandelure is just an overall tough Pokemon to use. Too many checks, some solid outright counters (that are very popular now), Pursuit weakness, and it basically requires both Rapid Spin and good prediction to get in easily, just because of all its weaknesses. It's also a terrible spinblocker, with every conceivable spinner destroying him with ease, save for Hitmontop. If you really want to use it, plan on doing a lot of 50/50. "Will my opponent use a Fire move or U-turn out?" "Will Donphan use Rapid Spin or Earthquake?" "Should I Fire Blast this Registeel or let Flygon get in for free?"

Things of that nature. You see his 145 base Sp. Att and assume "oh shit, this thing is dangerous", and he is, but the list of things wrong with him and ways to beat him, I can assure you, is much, much larger.
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I agree..It also has it hindering 80 base speed which is a let down..When we do look down the list of broken pokemon in UU, we see pokes who did a considerable amount to the metagame just by appearance. I believe chandelure isnt even one of those threats people are worried about while team building..as stated in the 50/50 rule, is a poke really that broken when you have to flip a coin just to live or not give your opponent momentum. High risk/ high reward type
 
Banedon you can't seriously be hyping Chandelure like that. (having "1" counter? Come on, its not that strong) Practically none of the top players on the ladder (save a few users like yourself, and jubilee) are abusing it at all. Like SJCrew has said, its so easy to check and its got so many flaws. At best Chandelure is average or ever so slightly above average in current UU.

@ Heysup, if you're implying that Chandelure is stronger than DP UU Cress...
 
@PK Gaming - that's the point. It has one counter, but its other problems (80 base speed, SR weak, easily outsped even at +1 from Flame Charge or Choice Scarf, etc) are legion, and that's what makes it not overpowered. It's like Deoxys-A in Ubers. Deoxys-A has no counters, but its defensive problems are so bad it isn't too uber to be uber.

Also I bombed out of the top of the ladder before Antar compiled the stats haha, didn't get to put any of my Pokemon on the 1337 stat list /wrist.
 
If you're gonna use Chandelure, you might as well use Rampardos.

BU Tornadus? I'm assuming that's some kind of odd Bulk Up/Acrobatics/Tailwind/U-Turn or Hammer Arm set, or something. I just don't see it flying that well. If it had Baton Pass, maybe. Otherwise, I think Floatzel's a better BUer.
 
chandelure is not rampardos. do not compare the two lol.

BU Tornadus is different; iirc it's GK/BU/Acrobat/Hammer Arm. Not a very good set IMO, but w/e.
 
Well given that the best answers to BU Tornadus are electric and rock types, perhaps consider a ground type, preferably one that can actually hurt Zapdos.
 
Actually, Bulk Up is extremely effective if provided the proper support. I've managed to sweep a good amount of teams with Bulk Up Tornadus. Acrobatics does a ridiculous amount of damage, especially with the Flying Gem boost. It is a very underrated set that not many people expect. While this may be the reason for its success, imo it is still a great set regardless of its usage.
 
A real, unexpected monster is SD Sceptile. Leaf Blade/Acrobatics/Rock Slide/Swords Dance gets good coverage, while still having the surprise factor behind it. It's pretty damn awesome running through teams with it. I especially love taking out Stoutland's that think they can revenge me.
 
Unburden was released quite some time ago. Dating all the way back when Speed boost Blaziken and Damp Swampert were revealed.
 
Oh wow, didn't think gen 3 mons were out already....
Yeah, SD Sceptile looks really good on paper, although it needs to get rid of its item to not be revenged by any faster mon, and priority still kills it
 
Moo said:
Oh wow, didn't think gen 3 mons were out already....
Yeah, SD Sceptile looks really good on paper, although it needs to get rid of its item to not be revenged by any faster mon, and priority still kills it
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Actually thats the nice thing about unburden sceptile..it can forgo speed, go adamant with tons of HP investment for some bulk..


LO Adamant Mamoswine ice shard does: 77.3%-91.3% vs 252 HP sceptile

that's pretty impressive coming from one of the strongest priority users and super-effective, imagine other priority users...I agree though that it needs to get rid of its items which is probably the most challenging part
 
actually the strongest priority mon in UU is Hitmontop, which can probably kill it with Fake Out + Mach Punch
 
I thought that Bisharp was the most powerful priority user in the game after absol, but who uses absol? Conveniently, the dark knight also resists flying, grass and rock
 
Things are too bulky for SD Sceptile in UU. Most random UU Pokemon survive a +2 Leaf Blade/supereffective nonstab move even though common Grass-types will be OHKOed by Acrobatics. Like Zapdos survives Rock Slide, Mew survives everything, etc.
 
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