np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

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Ok, we've established that Rock / Steel types make good switch-ins to Stoutland, but there are only a few usable ones exist, like Rhyperior, Aggron, etc. My questoin is: If something is as broken as some people are making it out to be, why would you not run a check to that Pokemon, instead of complaining about what that Pokemon does beat? Seriously, the amount of people that I see on the ladder with no Alakazam / Stoutland checks that still bitch about how broken they are is ridiculous. Just a thought
 
Moo said:
Ok, we've established that Rock / Steel types make good switch-ins to Stoutland, but there are only a few usable ones exist, like Rhyperior, Aggron, etc. My questoin is: If something is as broken as some people are making it out to be, why would you not run a check to that Pokemon, instead of complaining about what that Pokemon does beat? Seriously, the amount of people that I see on the ladder with no Alakazam / Stoutland checks that still bitch about how broken they are is ridiculous. Just a thought
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Thats pretty much true, i think that just because this isnt OU some people think they can just use whatever poke they want withought preparing to some common threats. The same way in OU you should have(had) something to hold on a gliscor/dory/toed/volcarona you should need to always be warry of some pokes in UU too. This isnt grab-bag, in UU too you have some powerfull pokes that need to be worry upon.

If you just want ban, you are doing it wrong.
 
So no one gives a shit about Frosslass anymore? K, I'll keep my ramblings about her to just once a week then...
 
LMK said:
So no one gives a shit about Frosslass anymore? K, I'll keep my ramblings about her to just once a week then...
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I'm still very much tired of losing to hail teams that I completely outplay just because my 100% accuracy attacks miss. And not just against Froslass - Glaceon and Mamoswine too.

The only problem is that Hippo dropped down at an extremely inopportune time, making hail teams very uncommon. Snow Cloak needs to be banned under evasion clause, and I don't think we should let all these shiny new toys distract us from that.
 
totally agree, froslass with sub and thunder wave in hail is far too much bullshit because fishing for a fully para/miss is very very easy, and machamp cant really do much besides come in, take hazards damage and die to a stab swift accurate blizzard (i mean no guard makes that pretty moot but whatever).
 
It's not just Froslass though, that includes all Snow Cloak users.

Razza said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it moved up to OU with the 3 month usage stats at the same time machamp chandelure etc moved down.

@ heysup

Just because you peaked number 1 on ladder with cb rhyperior doesn't make stoutland not suspect worthy, seriously your constant reminders of this are getting a bit repetitive by now....
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Chansey is UU. You can always check the list if you are unsure.

When, ever, did I claim that my ladder status is proof of Stoutland being not suspect worthy? I tagged it on at the end of the paragraph, pointing out that it is VERY easy to exploit Stoutland because if its terrible coverage. That is simply supporting my argument through my ladder experience.

If you guys are so set on picking one sentence that I've said in the passed day and anchoring to that misguided point, at least make sure it's in context; maybe it will be a little more difficult to dismiss.
 
Moo said:
Ok, we've established that Rock / Steel types make good switch-ins to Stoutland, but there are only a few usable ones exist, like Rhyperior, Aggron, etc. My questoin is: If something is as broken as some people are making it out to be, why would you not run a check to that Pokemon, instead of complaining about what that Pokemon does beat? Seriously, the amount of people that I see on the ladder with no Alakazam / Stoutland checks that still bitch about how broken they are is ridiculous. Just a thought
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lol seriously! 1 poke pretty much puts an end to both of them and that spiritomb..adding a spiritomb to your team really is like the underrated anti-metagame
 
The senate will be having a discussion on Alakazam soon, wherein we reach a possible verdict of whether or not it will remain UU. Spectators are welcome, and if you are part of the senate then stop lollygagging and hop your ass onto IRC. Remember, it's #genvuu on SynIRC.
 
So, by the little bit of time I spent on Syn not getting disconnected, it looks like Zam is here to stay.

I think we should look at the root of the issue: Hazards and how they are influencing the tier, specifically, spikes. The reason Zam is one of the (if not, the) best sweepers right now if his immunity to spikes (and recoil and toxic).

What needs to balance this out? Froslass leaving? Roserade? A better rapid spinner coming out or falling from OU? (I would love tentacruel in UU)

I am not saying anything should or shouldn't be banned, but I'd figure it would be an interesting thing to discuss.
 
waterwarrior said:
One thing I gotta say: The hell happened to Registeel?! The fact that people suggested Aggron over it makes me quite sad.
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Registeel is set up bait and not really threatening other than status move...with a lack of recovery too and not hitting hard, your not seeing something stick around hard..also UU has become alot more powerful so its defenses arent looking so good..Aggron is at least a huge threat with headsmash or a CB and takes even less damage from stoutland...But aggron is defintely no rhyperior though in terms of countering stoutland
 
Aggron is a great way to beat Stoutland too, but the reason Rhyperior is hailed as the best counter to Stoutland is because it maintains its ability to be a decent, even great Pokemon otherwise while the likes of Aggron is outshined in that very same role by Rhyperior's superior STABs, overall attacking power, and ability that makes it annoyingly hard to kill. Aggron needs his just so he wouldn't kill himeself. -__-

I also do agree that Registeel's role in this metagame is limited. He has more enemies than ever, and his tanking abilities alone don't cement his spot on a team when he comes up so short in the way of retaliation. One thing worth looking into is how great a check he is to Roserade, Rain, and Hail playstyles, for those having trouble fighting against them.
 
Few thoughts: First off, Chansey is doing very well for me. It took a hit with the newcomers but honestly so many people have gotten lax about countering Chansey and have some serious problems breaking it.

Second, I think it's been mentioned in this thread, but Specs fucking Kingdra is a beast. So many teams are just not prepared to take a draco meteor at all, and most of the ones that can deal with it on its own will have some serious problems if you pair it with Dugtrio/Magneton.

Alakazam is broken as shit as far as I'm concerned and needs to GO. Offensive teams just have so few options to counter it and it's not that easy to check either seeing as focus sash sets will wreck most pursuiters. ~_~ And you really need to pursuit it because the pressure it'll put on you otherwise is just fucking absurd.
 
I can't quite put my finger on what metagame shift has caused this but I feel like Escavalier has been much better than usual lately (not that it was ever bad). I can think of a few factors, such as the chandelure buzz dying down and it dealing with zam quite well, but I think there's probably more to it. It's not like there was ever an abundance of things that could switch into his amazing coverage of megahorn/megahorn/megahorn, but these days it seems there are even fewer. Oh, there's also the fact that hippowdon wrecks Cobalion unless it's running the "try to sweep with focus miss" set. I've always been a fan but lately I feel like it's a consistent mvp (assuming we aren't talking about +1, -31 battles where it's basically always Stoutland).

I even had reasonable success pairing it with a CB Rhyperior for a fun team idea that I pretty much stole from Godsend.
 
I think its more his tendency to punch holes in even the most hardcore of stall with or without Band which minimizes the damage/time hazards have to really get going. If he gets a good hit and significantly damages a important defensive pivot then the opponent is thrown onto a complete full defensive or offensive trying to compensate for it. With how bulky both offensive and balanced teams can be these days high powered wall breakers are useful.

I mean I've seen stuff like CBBouffalant, Heracross and CBRhyperior being used to great success simply because they force things into a attack from being too powerful to let them turtle but also too bulky to kill with 'passive' attacking. Also Arcanine, Victini usuage has died down severely as well which makes the main fire users Zapdos and Chandy since Darmanitarn rarely if ever goes straight for a Flare Blitz.

On a sidenote I encourage more people to check out CBBouffalant, holy crap that thing just isn't screwing around if it gets a Sap Sipper boost.
 
@ the Chansey discussion: Chansey is pretty good against Hyper offense teams (There will always be a few pokes that simply cannot beat it), but against a stall, or balanced team, Chansey is pretty much worthless.

Forsety said:
On a sidenote I encourage more people to check out CBBouffalant, holy crap that thing just isn't screwing around if it gets a Sap Sipper boost.
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Pretty much the only thing that can give you a boost in UU is Roserade and Shaymin. Roserade is much more likely to set up hazards and sleep powder is a rare sight nowadays and who in their right mind would use seed flare with Shaymin when they see a Bouffalant in the Team Preview??

I do see CB Bouffalant as a viable trick room sweeper though
 
jamashawalker said:
Registeel is set up bait and not really threatening other than status move...with a lack of recovery too and not hitting hard, your not seeing something stick around hard..also UU has become alot more powerful so its defenses arent looking so good..Aggron is at least a huge threat with headsmash or a CB and takes even less damage from stoutland...But aggron is defintely no rhyperior though in terms of countering stoutland
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The truth is that Aggron counters Stoutland even better than Rhyperior due to having 4x resistance to normal attacks and better physical defense when taking neutral or resisted hits,and the strongest neutral attack that Stoutland has for Aggron is Fire Fang(65 BP) while for Rhyperior is Crunch(80 BP).
But Rhyperior is a better poke overall because of better ability,stabs and typing for a physical tank.
But interms of the best straight up Stoutland counter,Aggron wins!
 
Aggron takes more from Wild Charge than Rhyperior does from Crunch. What's more important, though, is that Rhyperior can 2HKO Hippowdon with Earthquake while Aggron can't do anything of the sort. It's best bet is Aqua Tail, which won't cut it damage-wise and is way easier to play around given the lack of STAB. Since Stoutland is always paired with Hippowdon, being able to damage it is pretty important when it comes to countering Stoutland effectively.

@ Below:

That is an interesting anti-anti-metagame idea right there. Rhyperior switches in on Stoutland and takes 25%. Then you sac something to Rhyperior. Then, you sac Dugtrio to take 50% off of Rhyperior. Finally, you can finish Rhyperior with Stoutland. It sounds pretty bad on paper and I don't recommend it really, but there are certain teams out there that will straight up die to Stoutland if their CB Rhyperior is gone. Basically, it's a bad idea unless you are trying to counter-team heysup (or other people who use his team on ladder).
 
Dugtrio can be used too trap mons like rhyperior and steels and heavily weaken them, allowing for an easier stoutland sweep. Sure hippo + duggy + stoutland leaves you grass/water weak but thats why you have 3 other slots.

just a thought.
 
Scoopapa said:
Aggron takes more from Wild Charge than Rhyperior does from Crunch. What's more important, though, is that Rhyperior can 2HKO Hippowdon with Earthquake while Aggron can't do anything of the sort. It's best bet is Aqua Tail, which won't cut it damage-wise and is way easier to play around given the lack of STAB. Since Stoutland is always paired with Hippowdon, being able to damage it is pretty important when it comes to countering Stoutland effectively.
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Fire Fang is used much more than Wild Charge from my experience.And anyway the coverage moves don't matter much because the difference is really small.
For example assuming 160evs on both pokes HP,Aggron takes only 1,5% more from a Wild Volt than Rhyperior takes from a Crunch from a CB Stoultand.

What is important though is the main move that Stoutland will be spamming and this move is Return.
Aggron can take twice the Returns that Rhyperior can and this is why it is the best counter between those 2.

Also the Hippo referance is irrelevant since i clearly said counters for the exactly one pokemon we are talking about.

So as a straight up counter Aggron is better than Rhyperior but if you put Hippo also in the equation then Rhyperior becomes better.
Aggron can also 2hko Hippo with Aqua Tail but it has worst accuracy than EQ and is more situational,unlike Rhyperior's godlike EQ which can easily decimate most SS teams.
 
What is important though is the main move that Stoutland will be spamming and this move is Return.
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Really? I see it more being Retaliate usually, Return is for when you're already winning.

Amire said:
Pretty much the only thing that can give you a boost in UU is Roserade and Shaymin. Roserade is much more likely to set up hazards and sleep powder is a rare sight nowadays and who in their right mind would use seed flare with Shaymin when they see a Bouffalant in the Team Preview??

I do see CB Bouffalant as a viable trick room sweeper though
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It probably does work even better in Trick Room but point is it still gets the job done that is needed because it has the power needed and with Roserade the absolute no.1 choice in UU right now. An extra grass immunity can never hurt and there is always the chance you'll see a random HP Grass now and again, furthermore you can't fault that bulk at all.

Either way the point is you've got something with over 110 base attack, firing 120 power STAB attcks with a +1 boost that is too bulky to kill upfront with the potential for +2.
 
Retaliate is garbage. You're forced to lose a teammate just to use it and right after that first turn, you go back to 70 BP and lose your ability to ram through walls. The only way you can circumvent this is using LO Retaliate into Return, but the damage difference between this and two Choice Banded returns is minimal, and you have to drop either coverage or your ability to trap Ghosts. I would take two Choice Banded Returns in any and all situations, since it's completely reliable and offers about the same damage output as any of his other gimmicks.
 
For reference, vs 40 HP Rhyperior:

LO Retaliate: 28.35% - 33.60%
LO Return: 20.47% - 24.41%
CB Return: 23.88% - 28.35%

Though I gotta say, being able to possibly 3HKO CB Rhyperior (three switch in w/ Stealth Rock up) is pretty cool. It's unreliable at best though.
 
Ive seen this one set that was pretty amazing once ALL ghost have been eliminated..Retaliate+ Last Resort...The person i played against had two pursuiters specifically for ghost..and just ram through teams with LO Last resort..which seemed like it hit harder than CB return
 
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