np: UU Stage 5 - Every Rose Has Its Thorns

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I was also one of those that thought Abomasnow should be voted on (and then Snover or Froslass voted on afterwards if there was still a problem after Abomasnow had gone).

But at the same time, to be fair, I don't think we should've expected Snover to be discussed in those paragraphs, since it wasn't the topic to be discussed. We'd already discussed Snover at length anyway in the megathread. And as someone else says, if UU ever becomes stable sometime in the future, and we have nothing else to do, we can always test Snover again, just incase.

But for now, I think we should just accept the decision and move on.

 

[jamashawalker]

Actually I think I might change my opinion about spikes in UU right now. When I look at spikes and how they are being used and how they are being played against, I am disappointed beyond belief at how some players are playing. Some people will spike stack mindlessly while some will build a complete team that is grounded with no rapid spinner. I would say that this round in the metagame is rooting out the bad players from the good players and test skills much more. But to say its "broken" is NO WHERE near the brokeness of staraptor, kyurem, Wobb, nor drought. Staraptor all we had to do was click a button and watch shit die, Kyurem was virtually uncounterable and pretty hard to fuckin kill, Wobb took the game out of your hands with limiting pressure to use choiced pokes/stall and drought meant you had to run your own drought team or else you will just be overpowered. Some other bans were a bit contreversial but it still happened. This "spike rampage" is still no where near as bad as the past bans. You cant just be some scrub getting to the top of the ladder by using some spike team. It still takes alot of strategy and prediction. Teams are somewhat cliques but they still do add some diversity. Its not like the Hippo/stout/Rose/Zam combo which made it easy to get on top without really trying. I dont see this as a bad metagame at all rather just the way people are playing is bad

EDIT: I also liked to say that we are just ordinary people. Right now spikes is the rave, so we go with that style because its being discussed here on the megathread as huge. There was a time when we though victini was broken after sun was banned, but look at it now. I feel like giving it time will probably(with a high emphasis on probably) end this fad

 

[B0B0]

I had a fair bit of success doing just that baron , not getting majorly high but top 150 on a clean alt. it's amazing how many people will spike stack when the only pokes on my team that were affected by them were heracross and whimsicott.
An underatted poke in this meta IMO is definitely clefable , she goes someway in replacing Chansey with wish passing , heal bell and a space for rocks (if you can take being walled by sableye) all without any spikes damage. Switch her in on roserade and she's threated by little it can do. Scout the set and respond.
Another decent offensive core is rotom fan volt scarf and scarf turn flygon. Rocks are seen less so keep the pressure up with these two to not allow spikes to get up ( I prefer rotom to zapdos for trick and wisp)

 

[Son_of_Shadoo]

I think that the mindset of setting entry hazards in UU (spikes most) has become quite disgusting to be honest. I have played battles now where I will have my attacking pokemon hammering at my opponent, and he will ignore me for 3-6 turns and lay down every goddamn hazard before actually battling me. Then the game really starts at 6-4 maybe, with full hazards on my field. The mindset here is way too centralized on hazards.

If your opponent is blind enough to lay down hazards while under heavy fire, he or she just plain sucks, no harm to you.

 

[casey90]

Actually BOBO, specially defensive clefable has about to be at about 100% health to not get 2hko'd by LO roserade. Sludge bomb deals 36.5%-43.4% and leaf storm deals 56.6%-67%. meaning (factoring in lefies) clefable takes 87.1%-104.4%, plus Rose can outspeed and just sleep you.

 

[Avira]

BOBO, Clefable's base stats are too low for it be an effective Pokemon in UU in my opinion. There are too many things (Roserade included) that do very large amount of damage to Clefable and it isn't worth a team slot in my opinion.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

If your opponent is blind enough to lay down hazards while under heavy fire, he or she just plain sucks, no harm to you.

I'm not worried about myself in those situations, I'm worried about the state of the UU tier. The mindset of what is happening in a situation like that is what is pathetic, that many people are doing said actions.

 

[Ace Emerald]

I'm not worried about myself in those situations, I'm worried about the state of the UU tier. The mindset of what is happening in a situation like that is what is pathetic, that many people are doing said actions.

I wouldn't worry too much about this, its most likely just a phase, and will wear away as people realize how bad a strategy mindless spikes are. Keep in mind, the metagame is still fairly young.

The biggest problem I have with the current metagame is Roserade. I'm not referring to any support options it has, though those are certainly good, I'm talking about the sheer offensive pressure Roserade applies to teams. Between its coverage moves and Leaf Storm, there are barely any true switch ins to offensive Roserade, and Sleep Power only worsens the situation. Also, Sleep Powder makes anything with <90 base speed a huge liability. You cannot KO or give any sort of free switch with that pokemon, or else you're bound to lose at least one pokemon when Roserade surely makes her way to the field. The offensive pressure Roserade exudes while on the field is what makes Roserade unfun to play against, as my options are constricted, and almost all of them still leave me a pokemon alseep, and another crippled or dead. Just by coming in on a slower mon, 1/3 of my team is now in jeopardy, as well as the match many times.

Now I hate to do nothing but whine, so to combat this problem I've tried to make a team that applies constant pressure, and won't let Roserade in. Its worked for the most part, but the team required 2 pokemon slower than Roserade, and somehow she always finds her way up against them, jeopardizing the entire match by herself. I'm not saying she will win all by herself, rather cripple essential pokemon for me to use in the fight, because facing her restricts my options.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I wouldn't worry too much about this, its most likely just a phase, and will wear away as people realize how bad a strategy mindless spikes are. Keep in mind, the metagame is still fairly young.

The biggest problem I have with the current metagame is Roserade. I'm not referring to any support options it has, though those are certainly good, I'm talking about the sheer offensive pressure Roserade applies to teams. Between its coverage moves and Leaf Storm, there are barely any true switch ins to offensive Roserade, and Sleep Power only worsens the situation. Also, Sleep Powder makes anything with <90 base speed a huge liability. You cannot KO or give any sort of free switch with that pokemon, or else you're bound to lose at least one pokemon when Roserade surely makes her way to the field. The offensive pressure Roserade exudes while on the field is what makes Roserade unfun to play against, as my options are constricted, and almost all of them still leave me a pokemon alseep, and another crippled or dead. Just by coming in on a slower mon, 1/3 of my team is now in jeopardy, as well as the match many times.

Now I hate to do nothing but whine, so to combat this problem I've tried to make a team that applies constant pressure, and won't let Roserade in. Its worked for the most part, but the team required 2 pokemon slower than Roserade, and somehow she always finds her way up against them, jeopardizing the entire match by herself. I'm not saying she will win all by herself, rather cripple essential pokemon for me to use in the fight, because facing her restricts my options.

From seeing the constant weather in OU diminishing a bit in the past months, I'm starting to have a bit of faith again in 5th Gen competitive battling.

Roserade's offensive prescense in that regard is the reason alone that I can not safely use my Milotic in any battle that has a Roserade in it now. She singlehandedly puts more bulky waters out of submission than any other pokemon I can think of in UU. Killing her isn't too bad though, between my Weavile (outspeed and Ice punch OHKO), Sceptile (outspeed and Aerial Ace OHKO), and Zapdos (drill peck/head wave KO) I usuallly can deal with her.

 

[thecrowing2k8]

Why doesn't anyone use Cryogonal in this tier? She outspeeds and possibly OHKOs Roserade and serves as a decent offensive rapid spinner. Priority destroys it but that's why she's part of a team.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Why doesn't anyone use Cryogonal in this tier? She outspeeds and possibly OHKOs Roserade and serves as a decent offensive rapid spinner. Priority destroys it but that's why she's part of a team.

I love Cryogonal!

It has great Special bulk, base 105 Speed, and reliable recovery. It's SR weak but has LEVITATE, so Spikes and Toxic Spikes are no problem. I would like to emphasize this 105 Speed, since the analyses state to use a fully Specially Defensive set (which is a terrible idea). You nuke offensive Roserade with Ice Beam if you run max Speed, and a host of offensive Pokemon can't outspeed you if you run 252 HP/ 252 Speed Timid. For example, you will always outspeed Zapdos, Shaymin, Xatu, Mew, Nidoking, and Togekiss if you run enough Speed, and the speed tie with Mismagius lets you get off a Toxic before the Substitute if you're lucky. A fast Rapid Spin and Toxic is great too. Most people expect a super bulky set, so they'll Taunt you with their Deoxys-D, but they'll get Toxic'd first.

306 Special Defense uninvested is nice too. Cryogonal is great right now.

 

[S3rris]

Maybe I haven't been laddering long enough, but I don't really see the problem with hazards or the users. I see a spinner on basically every single team. When team building if you don't have a way to deal with Roserade and co. you need to fix that. Hazards are a central portion of the competitive meta-game (all tiers). My opinion, spikes are fine, I find SR more 'game-breaking' if you can even call it that. As far as the 'big 3'. None of them are too good for the tier.

 

[Banedon]

@DetroitLolCat - I think you should include all that in your paragraph, because it's nontrivial. I'm of opinion that a player should be able to read the paragraphs to figure out why the metagame has turned out the way it did even if he didn't read the megathreads / subforums, and the paragraphs at the moment don't say anything about Snover.

As for IRC, I did discuss Abomasnow / Snover on IRC. FlareBlitz was the only person there at the time. We discussed their performance against some of the top bulky waters in the metagame and he eventually agreed that there is a difference between the two. Like alexwolf though, I just don't care enough to argue about it anymore.

Incidentally I think IRC - the UU channel at least - has too much politics to be enjoyable. Did you know that one day when you weren't there, certain people got into a discussion about how horrible the senators are, and how in particular your post about why Deoxys-S should be OU is laughable? Whatever else you call IRC, I call it distasteful. Pardon me if I barely log on to it.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

imo cryogonal isn't as good as you guys made it out to be...

Cryogonal 252 Ice Beam vs 252/132+ Roserade = 2hko

and you still aren't going to beat sableye...

 

[alexwolf]

That's not at all true. There is not a current Suspect to be voted on at the moment, so there is no reason for Snover not being the next Suspect. I would disagree with you about Snow Cloak being the broken aspect of Hail (Personally I think it was Blizzard spamming combined with passive damage), but that's debatable. I guarantee you I did not think that Snow Cloak is the most problematic factor in UU Round 4. If enough people want a Snover re-test, then it will probably happen. I believe the rule with the UU Suspect system is that the community discusses the Suspects through the megathread and IRC, Jabba picks the Suspect based on community opinion, and the Senate votes on the Suspect after an open discussion on IRC.

I cannot stress enough that the community is, as far as I know, the most important part of the UU Suspect process. The past three Suspects (Alakazam, Hippowdon, and Snow Warning) were pretty unanimous in that most people thought those three things needed to be voted on, but if enough people want to revisit the Hail issue there's no reason not to give it another look. We might even discover that Snover could fit in UU!


Note: I don't think Snover will be voted UU, but if people want a retest then I will argue for a retest on IRC and in the megathread. That does not mean I will vote it UU; that remains to be seen.



------------------------

Oh, I think I misinterpreted Banedon's point about the paragraphs. The paragraphs aren't meant to decide what the suspect is, but whether or not it needs to be banned. There is a lot of discussion in Megathread 4 about what should have been nominated, and originally it was Abomasnow. It was later decided after further discussion that Snow Warning should be the Suspect instead. Therefore, there is no reason to mention Snover in the posts except as an aside. The Suspect was Snow Warning; the paragraphs should be Snow Warning.

Anyway since you brought it up, Snover AND Abomasnow should be retested!
Mamoswine is gone and Bronzong is here! This means that the strategy known as Blizzspam just got a tad more worse.
Why? Because a check to this strategy was added(Bronzong) and now Hail teams would no longer have an easy way against Blizzard absorbers like they did when Mamo was present. Now your bulky water can stomach Blizzards all day long, not even caring for a Freeze since Scald thaws you out, and sit there all day to wall the Blizzard spammers. Snorlax and Empoleon also just became way more difficult for Hail teams to eliminate without Mamo, as they handle almost every single Blizzspamer out there.
So either Hail teams should use pokes that get damaged by Hail, to break those mons(bulky waters, Snorlax, Steels) because almost no Ice poke can manage this or they have to just hope that they can get past those mons through extreme pressure and hazards. Ok there is also Weavile but this means just another poke weak to SR, in addition to Aboma and Froslass at least, no electric immunity so pokes like Zapdos become much harder to deal with, and finally Weavile fears priority 10 times more than Mamo...

So this round we can bring back both Hail indcuers, and this time if something needs to be banned, we can ban Snow Cloak or Snow Cloak + Snow Warning because after these changes Blizzspam is nowhere near broken... So this would mean that the only broken factor about Hail teams would be the misshax, and this would be what we should ban!

 

[Shinji Mimura]

So this round we can bring back both Hail indcuers, and this time if something needs to be banned, we can ban Snow Cloak or Snow Cloak + Snow Warning because after these changes Blizzspam is nowhere near broken... So this would mean that the only broken factor about Hail teams would be the misshax, and this would be what we should ban!

THIS! Just...this.

Complex bans are some of the most crucial bans we have seen this gen. Obviously we didn't ban Politoed because of rain, and we didn't Shell Smash (as a move or the Pokemon that learned it) because that would be silly.

So why ban Abomasnow and Snover? That'd be like banning Blaziken just because he had Speed Boost when all you could do is just ban SB Blaziken and leave Blaze Blaziken alone.

I do recall reading something about like...being unable to code PO or something like that...but I mean, complex bans don't really require a computer code; if the players adhere to the rules, they'd simply know of its banning.

But yeah, hastily-banning the snow twins is an unfinished issue that I really hope the senate doesn't think is finished. I realize the need to get hail out of the meta since it's so prevalent, but to leave Abomasnow in a tier where it has been proven he cannot compete and Snover literally unusable destroys the point of permanent hail even existing, and ruins those of us who wanted to try out the Ice Body pokemon.

 

[FlareBlitz]

FlareBlitz was the only person there at the time. We discussed their performance against some of the top bulky waters in the metagame and he eventually agreed that there is a difference between the two.

Of course there's a difference - Snover is clearly worse. But it's not worse enough that banning Abomasnow would have been a significant enough nerf to hail as a playstyle. If you recall, you said "abomasnow's wood hammer lets it beat bulky waters easier" and I pointed out that snover's leech seed / wood hammer did the exact same thing against every major bulky water, since unless both pokemon use Leech Seed first, they will both lose to offensive variants of things like Suicune. I certainly don't recall agreeing that there's a difference between the two pokemon such that hail's existence wouldn't still make hail overpowered.

Incidentally I think IRC - the UU channel at least - has too much politics to be enjoyable. Did you know that one day when you weren't there, certain people got into a discussion about how horrible the senators are, and how in particular your post about why Deoxys-S should be OU is laughable?

I think politics would be something like "man I don't really like whistle he's a major slut". Discussing the merits of someone's post or their official capacity in real time is what IRC is for.

Anyway since you brought it up, Snover AND Abomasnow should be retested!

No. The council should definitely have better things to do with their time than bringing hail back into the tier.

Re: spikes in general.

I don't like the reasons people are giving in support of the existence of such easy spikes in this metagame. Probably the most convincing post on the matter was from Heysup last time (the thread was closed before I had time to respond and I don't really want to drag it here), where he acknowledges that spikes are easy to get but questions their value in breaking certain offensive threats. That's a fair argument. "Most spikes players are dum-dums" is not a fair argument.

We have an incredibly large number of extremely powerful Pokemon in the tier. The only thing that prevents these pokemon from blowing right through teams is that they have certain extremely common counters (bulky waters, bulky psychics, etc). Spikes, however, makes it difficult for these pokemon to wall the things that someone who is building a team intends for them to wall. If I put a slowbro on my team with the express purpose of walling darmantian and my opponent gets full hazards on my side, well, slowbro will no longer be walling darmantian. And before someone points out the obvious, yes, this may mean I have full hazards on my opponent's side too. That does not solve the problem, it just exacerbates it - it turns offense into "who can set up / switch in first" instead of "who can play around threats using resistances the best".

There are some people who do not believe this is the case, that even with spikes, a counter can either still beat a pokemon, or was never going to beat it in the first place; so they ask, why isolate spikes? There are also people who acknowledge that this phenomenon exists in the metagame, and ask "who cares?" Which are fair questions - why should we care about the state of offense, and even if we should, what makes the existence of easy hazards "broken"?

These are questions that I, and others I'm sure, hope to eventually answer. For now, I would mostly like to ask that people focus on these topics when it comes to a discussion on spikes. I think we should first determine what their place in the metagame is before we start looking at individual spikers.

 

[destinyunknown]

Hail was banned like ~3 weeks ago, and now just because there's one more pokemon to take blizzards you suggest unbanning hail? Seriously?

 

[Notty]

I will never understand what's so appealing about auto-weather that people will seemingly fight to the death to preserve it...

Anyway, re:Spikes, can't say I've noticed them all that much. Whether that speaks to the people I'm playing or the somewhat esoteric methods I've used to prevent them going up (Magic Coat is highly underrated, for what it's worth) is uncertain, however. I do know that seeing the Big Three in team preview doesn't really inspire the fear that would make me think they need to be looked at, like when Sand/Hail teams were at their peak.

 

[Godsend]

Although I wasn't sure how I didn't exactly agree with the most recent bans, I have been enjoying this metagame quite a bit. For a while I used an X5D-esque team with six sweepers (all were special to commemerate the loss of Chansey) and it did well enough and was fun as hell to use. Rain Dance Special Kingdra is a god damn monster, more people should NOT use it, because it is damn good. I still don't see Spikes or any of the targeted Spikers as a problem, but I rarely find things broken.

 

[jamashawalker]

Re: spikes in general.

I don't like the reasons people are giving in support of the existence of such easy spikes in this metagame. Probably the most convincing post on the matter was from Heysup last time (the thread was closed before I had time to respond and I don't really want to drag it here), where he acknowledges that spikes are easy to get but questions their value in breaking certain offensive threats. That's a fair argument. "Most spikes players are dum-dums" is not a fair argument.

We have an incredibly large number of extremely powerful Pokemon in the tier. The only thing that prevents these pokemon from blowing right through teams is that they have certain extremely common counters (bulky waters, bulky psychics, etc). Spikes, however, makes it difficult for these pokemon to wall the things that someone who is building a team intends for them to wall. If I put a slowbro on my team with the express purpose of walling darmantian and my opponent gets full hazards on my side, well, slowbro will no longer be walling darmantian. And before someone points out the obvious, yes, this may mean I have full hazards on my opponent's side too. That does not solve the problem, it just exacerbates it - it turns offense into "who can set up / switch in first" instead of "who can play around threats using resistances the best".

There are some people who do not believe this is the case, that even with spikes, a counter can either still beat a pokemon, or was never going to beat it in the first place; so they ask, why isolate spikes? There are also people who acknowledge that this phenomenon exists in the metagame, and ask "who cares?" Which are fair questions - why should we care about the state of offense, and even if we should, what makes the existence of easy hazards "broken"?

These are questions that I, and others I'm sure, hope to eventually answer. For now, I would mostly like to ask that people focus on these topics when it comes to a discussion on spikes. I think we should first determine what their place in the metagame is before we start looking at individual spikers.

I think the better question we should ask right now is what is considered "broken?" Where is the line that spikes passes to say that it is too much for this metagame?(which you addressed) I've stated in my previous post, that when we look at the number of past bans they were pretty broken in terms of if you werent using that strategy or a counter to that strategy you are doing it wrong. Spikes havent warrant that much of a demand that you are forced to either use this strategy or counter this strategy.

Spikes have made powerful pokemon with limited counters even more powerful. And personally I'm tired of this theoritical BS that people keep saying Full layer of hazards vs Full layer of hazards. Let's face truth, how many "decent" games do we really see someone even competent enough to let the opponent set up full layer of hazards without providing some sort of offensive pressure of their own? By the time this situation arises its probably already 2-1 or 3-2. I've had full layer set up on me, tons of people have, but by this time the one who played better should prevail. Unlike some good players like flareblitz who know how to use and abuse spikes, you see some ppl (yes i'll reiterate it) play spikes mindlessly. That's what I meant in my previous post about how this metagame seperates the good players from the bad players. So where do we call this broken because good players know how to use this strategy effectively? So far ive seen shrang use Rain Dance so good that he made Rain Dance look broken and unstoppable.

To be honest I dont see having one of the Big Three on your team puts the opponent already at an automatic disadvantage. I understand and agree with heysup's post on the last thread that with spikes your darminitan can now turn 4HKOs into 3HKOs on certain KOs, but hey lets all face facts that its the point of the game. You win by support from other pokes and better play. Whether that be having a wall, having a pursuiter to have another poke sweep easily, having a status moves/cleric, having hazards, etc. Having spikes only supports your chances of winning. Where do we draw the line of how much support you should have for winning?

But if we must single out one it might as well be roserade. Roserade has the ability to NOT be rapid spinned since it has offensive pressence, multiple switch in opportunities, doesnt leave itself to be set up on so easily, bulky typing wise, and natural cure which seriously helps it in the long run. Deoxy-s D lacks offensive presence so it leaves itself to be spinnned on and frosslass is too frail to be on the same level as roserade. Granted each of them have their different uses on teams and must be played differently, when it really comes down to it roserade has the more utility and is much more of threat as a spiker.

Speaking of DeoxysD having no offensive pressence to the rapid spinners lol i dont wanna call him out on this but I will ruin his "surprise." Ive seen someone use Psychoboost DeoxysD which did around 91% to the standard hitmontop. It makes me wanna try offensive DeoxysD with Psychoboost and Thunder

 

[Banedon]

Of course there's a difference - Snover is clearly worse. But it's not worse enough that banning Abomasnow would have been a significant enough nerf to hail as a playstyle. If you recall, you said "abomasnow's wood hammer lets it beat bulky waters easier" and I pointed out that snover's leech seed / wood hammer did the exact same thing against every major bulky water, since unless both pokemon use Leech Seed first, they will both lose to offensive variants of things like Suicune. I certainly don't recall agreeing that there's a difference between the two pokemon such that hail's existence wouldn't still make hail overpowered.

I think politics would be something like "man I don't really like whistle he's a major slut". Discussing the merits of someone's post or their official capacity in real time is what IRC is for.

You certainly did not agree that the difference between the two Pokemon was such that hail would not longer be overpowered, but you also did agree that there was a difference vs. some top bulky waters (offensive Suicune is one, Empoleon is another). Actually all bulky waters, since Snover can afford Toxic / Scald burns less. I also vaguely remember you mentioning something about your Abomasnow variant and its performance vs. Cobalion. And as long as there is a difference, there is grounds to explain why Snover's getting banned too. I don't care enough about the topic anymore though, so won't be making any more posts after it.

As for the politics, did you see people saying things like "LOL WHY IS THIS GUY ON THE SENATE, HE BASICALLY SAID YOU GUYS ARE ALL NOOBS THATS WHY DEOXYS-S IS OU"? I've also seen things like people trashtalking some of my posts when they thought I wasn't there. I don't like it, but w/e.

 

[CrazyBacon]

Sand is as dominant as ever right now. With hail gone and big hippo gone, people are often making there teams which are wide open to a stoutland sweep, with of course the help of spikes. I've tried my hand at sandstorm and it's very dangerous. Sometimes, I don't even need spikes to wear the opponent down for a stoutland sweep, just mash frustration and watch whole teams crumble, I have also gone up against some bronzongs, but where they succeed in stopping stoutland, they fail in defeating omastar (LO surf does like 50%)

 

[TheBaron]

Couldn't Bronzong just use Gyro Ball? That sounds like a 1HKO against Omastar.

 

[CrazyBacon]

Couldn't Bronzong just use Gyro Ball? That sounds like a 1HKO against Omastar.

if it hasnt smashed, omastar does ~50% with LO surf and bronzong does 25.5% - 30.1%% back,

If omastar has smashed then bronzong is outright KOed by a +2 LO Hydr Pump/surf.