np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak

[Raikaria]

OK, I've actually been able to play some games using Jumpluff in NU today. Initially, I was sceptial of it's use to some degree, because many prominent threats can hit it SE, such as Swellow, Magmortar, 'Byss, and there's also Eggy.

Jumpluff's been pulling it's weight and then some. I stalled Rotom-S, Swellow, 'Byss, Mespirit and Eggy for a good twenty turns before I basically got bored and switched to Stunfisk [Predicting a Volt Switch, but instead taking 13% from an Air Slash, healed off mostly by Leech Seed]

How did I get Jumpluff in? Sub 'Byss. Came in on the Sub and Encored it.

Then later in the game, I brought Jump in after I lost Craydily to Perish-Trapping. Eggy was in. Subbed so I could encore Psychic, sacced Jumpluff, and swept with Sub CM Mespirit.

Jumpluff basically turns anything that uses Sub in the teir into it's plaything. If you have Jumpluff, and predict a Sub... well, you turn their free setup around on it's head. It's amazing in NU, and if it gets a Sub up, can be nigh impossible to actually stop without it giving a free setup to another pokemon as you do so.

The insanely fast Encore also allows you to create setup fodder if Jumpluff is in a position where it's outlived it's use otherwise.

It also happens to pair rather well with Stunfisk, who's arguably the best T-Waver in the tier. Yes, I think Stunfisk is a better Paralysis spreader than Mespirit. [Mespirit has 4MMS anyway, and I already use a bulky Sub CM set]

 

[elchupo]

I've also been curious as to how Butterfree fares, as well as the other Quiver Dancers in NU.

All bar 3 of the Pokemon who get the move are NU (Venomoth, Lilligant and Volcarona are not). They also have a variety of things that differentiate them so they each have a somewhat different niche.

For example, Masquerain gets Hydro Pump + Intimidate, making it a great switch in to Choice Sawk locked into CC. I experimented with it in very early NU, and it did really well.

Butterfree to me seems outclassed by the likes of Mothim if it isn't running Compoundeyes, since Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance is such a potent combination, as Venomoths rise to BL2 this gen shows. However, it does lack a decent flying STAB, which does merit Tinted Lens. I guess its up to personal preference

Mothim has the benefit of hitting the hardest after a single Quiver Dance, with a great 94 SpA, and is the second fastest after Butterfree.

Beautifly seems like an inferior Mothim, albeit with an interesting ability in Rivalry.

And Dustox is just so poor its sad. One of my favourites design wise but even a great move like Quiver Dance can't make it useful.

Anybody have any experience of using these? I suppose with the lack of decent rapid spinners in the tier it means people aren't bothered using 4x Rock weak Pokemon with somewhat poor stats, but I'm curious since in my experience with Masquerain showed that they're not as useless or as hard to use as they seem.

 

[Smith]

I'm not sure how good a counter Masquerain is to Sawk since it gets Stone Edge, but Hydro pump coverage is always cool!

Despite this, my favorite option of the lot is actually Mothim. I'm theorymonning that something like Substitute / Quiver Dance / Bug Buzz / Air Slash could work to abuse Swarm, keep Mothim safe from status, and the like. Butterfree seems best to me as a lead, since it can use Sleep Powder and just U-turn right out of there.

 

[Axa]

Beautifly and Dustox aren't really worth considering.

Masquerain has the best offensive movepool, but conversely it has the worst stats for sweeping, as it's the slowest out of the three. It has Intimidate and the best defenses overall, but it doesn't have Sleep Powder, only Stun Spore. It's also the only one that doesn't get Tinted Lens. Hydro Pump and Ice Beam sound good on paper, but realistically you'd only use one for coverage, since the other 3 slots would be QD/Air Slash/Bug Buzz. The alternative would be to use the fourth slot for Substitute or Roost.

Butterfree has the best speed, but is the weakest physically. Sleep Powder is a huge boon to it though, as it makes setting up a whole lot easier. Running Tinted Lens means you lose out on a few coverage and utility options like Giga Drain and Roost, but that isn't really too much of a concern since Butterfree has enough of 4MSS as it is. It'd likely run Sleep Powder/QD/Bug Buzz, with the fourth slot being a toss-up between Substitute, HP Flying, or U-Turn.

Mothim has the best offenses, obviously. Its ATK is the same as its S.ATK, meaning U-Turn, if you choose to run it, can still put a dent in things like Cacturne and Exeggutor. He has the overall worst defenses though and is really frail. His offense is great, but I'd actually consider him the worst of the three because it's difficult for him to switch in in the first place, and he doesn't have any powders.

 

[breh]

smith, I remember seeing somebody that ran tinted lens mothim (DW) and said that they had some fun doing so.

Bug Buzz/Air Slash gets perfect coverage too.

IMO this is the ranking of the QDers: Butterfree/Masquerain/(big drop) Mothim/(awful) Beautifly/Dustox. Butterfree has sleep powder, masquerain has hydro pump and inti, mothim has ok attacking stats, beautifly is 100% worse than mothim, and Dustox has 50 base SpA.

 

[elchupo]

I could have swore Tinted Lens Mothim was already released, since I was pretty sure I experimented with it in NU, although it could have just been the DW tier.

Anyway, I found said frailty to be the biggest hindrance to Mothim's utility. Being the frailest of a frail bunch does it no favours. However, like someone already mentioned, with Tinted Lens Bug Buzz and Air Slash get perfect coverage. Being able to hit everything in the metagame for neutral damage with either of your STABs is pretty huge. This also leaves it able to run U-turn along with its special moves to scout for counters. I guess its worth another look in when its released.

I may try Butterfree since it does seem good on paper. Max Spe+ Butterfree at +1 outspeeds max Spe+ Swellow which is great, since Swellow seems like a common switch in.

EDIT: Oh, and just an aside, Dustox is the only one that doesn't take 50% from SR, which is...something I suppose.

 

[Brammi]

Was looking at QDers yesterday.

Beautifly and Mothim both hit harder but lack sleep powder. But the true standout on paper is Masquerian. It has a giant special movepoll including Hydro Pump / Blizzard / Ice Beam / Energy Ball / Shadow Ball not including stabs and others.

It also has intimidate which has natural synergy with quiver dance. The letdown here is its speed.

 

[Rakan]

The thing with Masquerain is that it's not gonna be taking many hits regardless of Intimidate thanks to its terrible defenses. In addition, it lacks Tinted Lens, which makes its many coverage moves somewhat obsolete, not to mention Hydro Pump and Ice Beam aren't even boosted by STAB. Tinted Lens users such as Butterfree can free up coverage moveslots for more useful moves such as Sleep Powder (which Masquerain doesn't have access to) and Substitute, while Masquerain must rely on its coverage moves to hit certain targets. Butterfree can just Bug Buzz everything to death, regardless of whether the opponent resists it or not. Granted, there are some 4x resists to Bug Buzz, but only a few. I'd definitely say Butterfree is by far the best Quiver Dancer in the tier.

 

[Brammi]

smith, I remember seeing somebody that ran tinted lens mothim (DW) and said that they had some fun doing so.

Bug Buzz/Air Slash gets perfect coverage too.

IMO this is the ranking of the QDers: Butterfree/Masquerain/(big drop) Mothim/(awful) Beautifly/Dustox. Butterfree has sleep powder, masquerain has hydro pump and inti, mothim has ok attacking stats, beautifly is 100% worse than mothim, and Dustox has 50 base SpA.

Butterfree is fighting hard for top spot. Frailty means literally nothing when you are sweeping at 50% health. Beautifly will probably be just as good as Butterfree and co once Rivalry gets released simple because of the immense power it will have against pokes of same gender, not to mention it hits harder than butterfree already and can also run a stronger scarf set than Butterfree.

Dustox has a potential niche. It is the 'wall' of the bunch and while it doesn't hit hard, I could see it pulling off an ok Crotox set. (QD / BBuzz / Rest / Sleep Talk)

 

[Rakan]

Rivalry only raises Attack, so I'm not sure how that will help it at all. Butterfree also has the best Speed out of any of the Quiver Dancers, so that also gives it an edge.

 

[DTC]

Dustox has a potential niche. It is the 'wall' of the bunch and while it doesn't hit hard, I could see it pulling off an ok Crotox set. (QD / BBuzz / Rest / Sleep Talk)

The problem with that set is Dustox can't hit hard off the bat; in fact, it needs a bunch of boosts before it can hit decently hard. By the time it gets a few boosts in, it's already dead since it's barely threatening offensively.

Perhaps it's effective at sweeping late game, but it doesn't look that great compared to the other Quiver Dance sweepers.

 

[Brammi]

The problem with that set is Dustox can't hit hard off the bat; in fact, it needs a bunch of boosts before it can hit decently hard. By the time it gets a few boosts in, it's already dead since it's barely threatening offensively.

Perhaps it's effective at sweeping late game, but it doesn't look that great compared to the other Quiver Dance sweepers.

It's about the only thing it can do though.

 

[gamer40000]

And besides, why would you make a Cro- set with 60/70/90 defenses, 50 Sp. Atk, and forced out by almost every offensive mon in the tier?

 

[Brammi]

And that's why dustox isn't getting an analysis. It does wall Sawk. :D

 

[kniteowl]

Dustox has a potential niche. It is the 'wall' of the bunch and while it doesn't hit hard, I could see it pulling off an ok Crotox set. (QD / BBuzz / Rest / Sleep Talk)

it probably makes more sense to run this set (QD / BBuzz / Roost / Whirlwind)

Similar to the Latios set in OU, Whirlwind forces out other pokemon set up along side with Dustox.

Roost is better then Rest Talk because, being a poison type, it isn't affect by toxic and therefore can not be toxic stalled, while para and burns are only at best annoying. The only advantage Rest talk has is being able to be a sleep absorber and abusing sleep clause to your advantage.

The problem with that set is Dustox can't hit hard off the bat; in fact, it needs a bunch of boosts before it can hit decently hard. By the time it gets a few boosts in, it's already dead since it's barely threatening offensively.

Perhaps it's effective at sweeping late game, but it doesn't look that great compared to the other Quiver Dance sweepers.

Agreed, Dustox would need dual screen support most likely, at the very least Reflect support, too bad it can't use reflect either.

 

[jake]

And that's why dustox isn't getting an analysis. It does wall Sawk. :D

Stone Edge...? Also we should really stop talking about what's redeemable about bad Quiver Dancers (hint: nothing) and at least talk about the good ones (ie Butterfree and to a lesser degree Masquerain).

 

[Vitalise]

Beedrill is still a Reliable suicide lead and choice scarf user

 

[Axa]

Butterfree is fighting hard for top spot. Frailty means literally nothing when you are sweeping at 50% health. Beautifly will probably be just as good as Butterfree and co once Rivalry gets released simple because of the immense power it will have against pokes of same gender, not to mention it hits harder than butterfree already and can also run a stronger scarf set than Butterfree.

Dustox has a potential niche. It is the 'wall' of the bunch and while it doesn't hit hard, I could see it pulling off an ok Crotox set. (QD / BBuzz / Rest / Sleep Talk)

Beautifly doesn't have anything going for it. Mothim is faster, hits harder, and Tinted Lens > Rivalry any day of the week. Beautifly doesn't have Sleep Powder either. Its only niche is... what, Morning Sun?

Even if the pinch berries get released, Mothim is still a better Swarm user.

Quiver Dance Dustox is like talking about Shell Smash Torkoal. There are better uses of Dustox.

As for Masquerain, it has only a few things going for it- it hits harder on Regirock/Gigalith/Golem, it has slightly better defenses, and it has access to Roost, since Butterfree and eventually Mothim will be running Tinted Lens. Oh, and it has Air Slash while Butterfree would have to rely on HP Flying, but Butterfree does well enough with Bug Buzz.

Other than that, Sleep Powder alone gives Butterfree the prize.

 

[breh]

so we were theorymonning in IRC about Eviolite nidorino.

perks:
Hustle gives Nidorino an effective 133 base with max investment. This is better than Garchomp, mind you.
Has Toxic Spikes and OK bulk to abuse it as a result of eviolite
Has sucker punch for utility
Adequate STAB in Poison Jab, which is pretty good since it hits everything in the tier neutral bar probo and golem pretty much
Has a really neat setup move in Hone Claws

any thoughts?

Adamant Nidorino @ Eviolite
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Poison Jab
-Sucker Punch
-Toxic Spikes
-Hone Claws

 

[Smith]

i HATE hustle but Hone Claws suddenly turns him into a really cool Pokemon imo! His stats are still pretty dissapointing but any Pokemon that can set up or absorb TSpikes can't be that bad. That sad, he has bad typing both offensively and defensively since he has poor resistances. I'd mostly use him as a lead and then keep him for later game Sucker Punch.

 

[Molk]

idk why nobody hasnt mentioned beheeyem as a sweeper yet, it is decently bulky, has nasty plot and thunderbolt over duosion, and also the capability to run leftovers.
(with 383 Spa and nasty plot, who needs LO? cofagrigus pulls it off with 317 in Ru).

i can see beheeyem being a very big threat to stall and hyper offense alike, and a very good addition to hyper offense. with a combination of that special attack, decent bulk, and access to nastyroom idk why people are overlooking it

 

[Sabinfrost]

so we were theorymonning in IRC about Eviolite nidorino.

perks:
Hustle gives Nidorino an effective 133 base with max investment. This is better than Garchomp, mind you.
Has Toxic Spikes and OK bulk to abuse it as a result of eviolite
Has sucker punch for utility
Adequate STAB in Poison Jab, which is pretty good since it hits everything in the tier neutral bar probo and golem pretty much
Has a really neat setup move in Hone Claws

any thoughts?

Adamant Nidorino @ Eviolite
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Poison Jab
-Sucker Punch
-Toxic Spikes
-Hone Claws

Horrific BST completely kills it, which is a shame as it's a cool looking Poke and I love Nidoking, it's just even with hone claws/hustle it's slow as .... with no health or defense, even after eviolite. I wanna like it, I just can't.

 

[kniteowl]

idk why nobody hasnt mentioned beheeyem as a sweeper yet, it is decently bulky, has nasty plot and thunderbolt over duosion, and also the capability to run leftovers.
(with 383 Spa and nasty plot, who needs LO? cofagrigus pulls it off with 317 in Ru).

i can see beheeyem being a very big threat to stall and hyper offense alike, and a very good addition to hyper offense. with a combination of that special attack, decent bulk, and access to nastyroom idk why people are overlooking it

On Trick Room Teams, There just too many Psychics already vying for a team spot and people probably just prefer other Psychics to set up trick room like Mespirit, Exeggutor and Musharna.

I'm not saying beheeyem is bad orr anything, it's actually pretty decent, but with all the competition it just gets lost in the mix.

 

[breh]

I think maybe the reason that it's not used is absol. absol is on a lot of teams now and BEM is pretty much forced to switch vs. it. Also, cofagrigus has perfect two-move coverage while BEM can only run shadow ball or HP fighting in the last slot.

 

[Molk]

i meant using beheeyem as a standalone sweeper, not on a full trick room team, it has its own little niche, as the only pokemon with the nastyroom combo in NU.

what it has over mesprit: higher special attack, Nasty Plot, Lower Speed

what it has over Musharna: Higher Special attack, Thunderbolt, nasty plot

what it has over exeggutor: Thunderbolt, Lower Speed, Nasty Plot

what it has over Duosion: better bulk if duosion is running LO, Nasty Plot, Thunderbolt

if you want a trick room sweeper, beheeyem is probably one of the best options cause it can boost and there will still be 3 trick room turns for beheeyem to sweep, meaning basically 3 pokemon down.

edit @ breludicolo cofag is RU, i should know, i use that set and its incredible

being forced out by absol is not a viable argument, as all three of the previously stated pokemon are also forced out by absol and absol cannot switch into beheeyem after it sets up trick room

ALSO, BEHEEYEM HAS THUNDERBOLT psychic+electric is pretty good coverage