np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak

[jake]

Ground is solid coverage alongside grass, I don't see how it's that shocking. You hit poison and fire, and sucker-punch is enough to deal with much of what that doesn't cover. I didn't realize that absol commonly runs HP evs, but that's still enough damage to prevent absol from destroying your team. If it's used superpower once, it will lose regardless.

I've seen defensive mesprit use Ice Beam. Its a decent coverage move for it. Assuming 0 hp doesn't make sense, either, as between chlorophyll and sucker punch shiftry has plenty of room to invest in bulk.

I didn't mean to doubt that Nature Power is a decent move on Shiftry but just meant to say that I hardly ever see it (not that I see Shiftry too often, either). I suppose it is a viable option for those having issues with Absol though. x)

Most Mesprit I run across either run something like SR / Thunder Wave / Psychic / U-turn, a Scarf set, or a CM set. Most of the time I only see Ice Beam on the CM variants; never have I seen a purely defensive one use it. Just speaking from my own experience, more or less.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Standard Shiftry is Swords Dance / Seed Bomb / Sucker Punch / Nature Power. It's not quite as good as it was last round, but it's still very scary - like a weaker Absol that has a better typing, more bulk and can punch through Alomomola and friends. To be perfectly honest I'd still rather use Absol - the extra power gives it more utility as a revenge killer - but Shiftry is still good.

 

[skymastergamerpt]

Standard Shiftry is Swords Dance / Seed Bomb / Sucker Punch / Nature Power. It's not quite as good as it was last round, but it's still very scary - like a weaker Absol that has a better typing, more bulk and can punch through Alomomola and friends. To be perfectly honest I'd still rather use Absol - the extra power gives it more utility as a revenge killer - but Shiftry is still good.

That Shiftry set is even usable in UU from what the Smogon article says since it does survive a Ice Beam from Milotic. In regards to NU Sucker Punch is very useful to deal with Mesprit dealing 82.5% to 97.25%. Of course it gets the risk of being OHKO by Mesprit's U-Turn if it has. There is a 6% chance of OHKO though.

 

[Nubagator]

Shifting away from Shiftry: I was using Jumpluff for awhile, and it preformed really well. It has an insanely fast sleep powder, and will almost start off the match in your favor. only a handful of pokes can win should they find themselves in a lead off match-up against it, though it doesn't have too many selling points outside of that. I don't think it really merits a spot on a regular team, but it could be very interesting as a sun supporter.

 

[Raikaria]

Shifting away from Shiftry: I was using Jumpluff for awhile, and it preformed really well. It has an insanely fast sleep powder, and will almost start off the match in your favor. only a handful of pokes can win should they find themselves in a lead off match-up against it, though it doesn't have too many selling points outside of that. I don't think it really merits a spot on a regular team, but it could be very interesting as a sun supporter.

I used Jumpluff back in UU to great effect.

It's a brilliant Subseeder, annoyer, and all-around troll.

I used to use this set:

Jumpluff @ Leftovers

252 Spd / 252 Def / 4 Sp.Def

Bold Nature [Not certain]

Substiute
Sleep Powder
Leech Seed
Encore

The premise is simple, Jumpluff is one of the fastest mons in the whole game, so if you think something is going to set up, you switch in and Encore it. Subseeding is Subseeding, but the fast Encore allows you to force repitition of a move to give a teammate a free switch in after the sub has broken.

Sleep Powder is utility.

It may not look like much, but it's rage-induceing. Sure, it dies to Taunt... but not that much in NU actually uses it.

Eggy walling it is a pain though.

Good mon to consider on an NUJ stall team, IMO.

 

[Smith]

I've used Jumpluff in OU, he's a cool niche Pokemon there and I wouldn't expect any less in NU. Not only are NU massively unprepared to eat an SP turn1, but really weak to SubSeed since the only grass type that can touch pluff (Cacturne) does not enjoy U turn. I'll have to give him a try!

 

[Style_Dota]

Jumpluff is really an annoying Pokemon. The problem is that its set up fodder for Cacturne, who can easily just come in and start setting up Spikes.

Also, Magmortar is really starting to become more and more of a threat. Expert Belt variants are terrifying, since odds are you're going to lose a Pokemon unless you have something like Grumpig.

 

[Honus]

Jumpluff is really an annoying Pokemon. The problem is that its set up fodder for Cacturne, who can easily just come in and start setting up Spikes.

Also, Magmortar is really starting to become more and more of a threat. Expert Belt variants are terrifying, since odds are you're going to lose a Pokemon unless you have something like Grumpig.

Yeah, it really is, since it gets Focus Blast to take out the Lickilicky's and Audino's that would otherwise wall it, although I guess I've been lucky enough to only face Magmortar users that can't predict.

 

[marilli]

Jumpluff is really an annoying Pokemon. The problem is that its set up fodder for Cacturne, who can easily just come in and start setting up Spikes.

Also, Magmortar is really starting to become more and more of a threat. Expert Belt variants are terrifying, since odds are you're going to lose a Pokemon unless you have something like Grumpig.

I thought that Magmortar's always been that good? I'm pretty sure he's been hyped ever since Lanturn + Slowking left, and it's not just weak hype, too. It's been around in top teams since... forever =P

Oh, and I do agree that from personal experience, Turn 1 sleep is just incredibly great. If it weren't for the Magmortar presence, I think it'd be almost too good.

 

[Sabinfrost]

Jumpluff is really an annoying Pokemon. The problem is that its set up fodder for Cacturne, who can easily just come in and start setting up Spikes.

Also, Magmortar is really starting to become more and more of a threat. Expert Belt variants are terrifying, since odds are you're going to lose a Pokemon unless you have something like Grumpig.

I've been bringing Hypno in on it and t-waving and proceeding to wish/s-toss. Shuts it down completely, Hypno takes around 30% from Fire Blast and they never carry coverage for Psychic.

 

[Raikaria]

I thought that Magmortar's always been that good? I'm pretty sure he's been hyped ever since Lanturn + Slowking left, and it's not just weak hype, too. It's been around in top teams since... forever =P

Oh, and I do agree that from personal experience, Turn 1 sleep is just incredibly great. If it weren't for the Magmortar presence, I think it'd be almost too good.

Magmortar's been hyped in NU since Gen 4 [Where our little community had it as a suspect, but I think it ended up 3-4 no ban].

To be honest, bearing in mind the 'Byss in the room drowning everyhting as well, I think Magmortar *might* be broken. Especially with 'Byss gone. It only has one real check, Grumpig... who sucks. It's also more or less assured at least one ko per game, especially if used towards endgame.

Jumpluff is really an annoying Pokemon. The problem is that its set up fodder for Cacturne, who can easily just come in and start setting up Spikes.

Jumpluff is far from setup fodder for Cacturne. OK, come on in and set up Spikes. Jumpluff can just encore you, so Cacturne is now setup fodder for something. If you attack, Seed Bomb isn't going to cut it, to x4 resistance, and Sucker Punch obviously won't work.


Jumpluff is walled by Cacturne, but the end result will be you're encored and something comes in and sets up for free.

Also, Eggy walls Jumpluff, and can crush it with Psyshock. It has enough bulk to not care about U-Turns from Jumpluff either, despite x4 effectivness [Jumpluffs often don't invest in Atk]

Arguably the best thing about Jumpluff is how people perceive it as setup fodder, and forget it has a lightling fast Encore.

Best part is that Jumpluff can beat Magmortar, if it dosen't come in on Flamethrower/HP Ice. You can encore whatever it used last, and Subseed from there.

Or, you know, Sleep Powder.

 

[destinyunknown]

I've been bringing Hypno in on it and t-waving and proceeding to wish/s-toss. Shuts it down completely, Hypno takes around 30% from Fire Blast and they never carry coverage for Psychic.

Why should magmortar carry a supereffective hit against Hypno? Neutral Fire Blast hit harders than a SE Shadow Ball (Unless Expert Belt). And probably Specs Magmortar puts a number on hypno -.-

 

[Sabinfrost]

Why should magmortar carry a supereffective hit against Hypno? Neutral Fire Blast hit harders than a SE Shadow Ball (Unless Expert Belt). And probably Specs Magmortar puts a number on hypno -.-

Specs Magmortar does around 40ish percent with Fire Blast, so providing it hits, it's not a 2hko, you can t-wave it, outspeed it and get off a wish, making it completely easy to revenge kill. If you checked the post I responded to, it was in regards to expert belt Magmortar, which Hypno walls for days as he has recovery unlike Grumpig and base 115 SpD.

 

[destinyunknown]

Specs Magmortar does around 40ish percent with Fire Blast, so providing it hits, it's not a 2hko, you can t-wave it, outspeed it and get off a wish, making it completely easy to revenge kill. If you checked the post I responded to, it was in regards to expert belt Magmortar, which Hypno walls for days as he has recovery unlike Grumpig and base 115 SpD.

Yeah I see what a good magmortar counter Hypno is, considering that with 1 layer of spikes + stealth rock is 2HKOed (from what you say, i haven't made the calcles) so it can't even switch into Magmortar.

 

[Sabinfrost]

Yeah I see what a good magmortar counter Hypno is, considering that with 1 layer of spikes + stealth rock is 2HKOed (from what you say, i haven't made the calcles) so it can't even switch into Magmortar.

252 SpAtk Modest Choice Specs Magmortar Fire Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hypno: 54.81% - 64.97%

That's it's most powerful neutral hit, it fails to K.O in a single hit, meaning Magmortar has no chance switching into Hypno and Hypno can easily come in on the turn Magmortar is predicted to come in, or when a Pokemon dies and paralyze it or Wish/Protect stall it if you like banking on hax like it missing a Fire Blast (not a completely bad idea given Fire Blast has 8 pp)

Specs Timid Flamethrower is around 39-44% (what I meant to refer to in my original response, not fire blast), which is a 3hko with leftovers, even after hazards due to protect granting an extra turns recovery.

Against Scarf/Expert Belt (as it's not super effective) and timid, which is a far more common nature,

252 SpAtk Magmortar Fire Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hypno: 33.69% - 39.57%

3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

= Completely walled with Wish

As stated originally, the discussion was about Expert Belt Magmortar.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Why is there half a page of badly-argued shitstorm about whether or not a terrible mon is a counter or a check to the worst set of a good mon? What exactly is the point?

To refocus the thread onto something relevant... Ways To Take Advantage of Regirock - Discuss.

 

[Brammi]

Why is there half a page of badly-argued shitstorm about whether or not a terrible mon is a counter or a check to the worst set of a good mon? What exactly is the point?

To refocus the thread onto something relevant... Ways To Take Advantage of Regirock - Discuss.

Subpunch Gurrdur, SubWak and *drumroll* DD Whiscash. True story.

 

[marilli]

Why is there half a page of badly-argued shitstorm about whether or not a terrible mon is a counter or a check to the worst set of a good mon? What exactly is the point?

To refocus the thread onto something relevant... Ways To Take Advantage of Regirock - Discuss.

Gorebyss /enddiscussion?

I like Torterra too, given it doesn't carry random Toxic. It almost always carries Thunder Wave though, so rather unlikely. Standard SR / SE / EQ / TWave can't do anything as it Rock Polishes up and destroys half the tier.

edit: Life Orb EQ 2HKOes, from experience. No one goes 252/252 Impish on Regirock.

 

[Brammi]

Tort doesn't beat regirock as it loses a metric fuckton from woodhmmering it.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Torterra easily beats Regirock; the standard Regirock can't do anything to it and gets 2HKOd by Earthquake. The real problem is the other obstacles to Torterra. It's outsped at +2 by Scarf Rotom-S and it can't really get through the other Grasses in the tier, like Exeggutor and Leafeon, which are both fairly common. It is a somewhat forgotten threat that's still really potent, though. Defensive Torterra can also take on a huge variety of threats in the tier - 95 / 105 / 85 defenses are pretty damn good.

There are a bunch of other less common Ground-types that are good switchins to Regirock - how about Marowak? It can come in, set up a Substitute and virtually guarantee a KO with its immense power. The tier is actually quite weak to STAB Ground with decent coverage, and Regirock provides an outlet for this.

 

[destinyunknown]

Sub Gorebyss is probably the best you have.

What about Glalie? I have been testing a team with it and it works pretty good. It has a decently fast taunt, so its the only spiker not being set up on, is decently bulky (80/80/80), and while it has a terrible typing, at least it can take some neutral hits. Oh, and it has Super Fang to deal some good damage (if you don't feel like investing on his offensive stats) as well as Light Screen and Rain Dance.

 

[Vitalise]

Sub Gorebyss is probably the best you have.

What about Glalie? I have been testing a team with it and it works pretty good. It has a decently fast taunt, so its the only spiker not being set up on, is decently bulky (80/80/80), and while it has a terrible typing, at least it can take some neutral hits. Oh, and it has Super Fang to deal some good damage (if you don't feel like investing on his offensive stats) as well as Light Screen and Rain Dance.

True that, Glalie is prolly the best spiker in nu right now, tbh.

 

[jake]

True that, Glalie is prolly the best spiker in nu right now, tbh.

Except for Cacturne, who has infinitely more utility with Sucker Punch, Encore, Water Absorb, etc., and Garbodor, who has both Toxic Spikes and Spikes, the best defenses of all remaining Spikes users, Haze, etc.

Really, you can't say it's the best Spiker when all of its competition (however little competition there may be) is equal or better in usefulness. Glalie is a decent offensive suicide Spikes user, I'll give it that, but that's about it.

 

[Rakan]

Agreeing with the sentiments about Cacturne, it really has all the tools to be a great spiker; priority, Encore, and a Water-type immunity are all excellent things to have as a spiker. Aside, has anyone used Butterfree yet? I've found Butterfree to be surprisingly good with a simple Quiver Dance set. Tinted Lens makes up for single move coverage, and Sleep Powder gives it more chances to set up. I've definitely successful swept with Butterfree more than just a few times.

 

[marilli]

Aside, has anyone used Butterfree yet?

I have x3

Actually, Tinted Lens Quiver Dance set with Sub / QD / Sleep Powder / Bug Buzz and simple 252/252 spread is incredible. The decrease in accuracy is totally worth x2 damage on resistors, and it outspeeds a lot of things after even 1 boost. It's basically like mini-Venomoth, with worse SR weakness. A lot of teams are basically not ready to essentially lose 1 mon to sleep from the get-go, so a traditional Compoundeyes sleep powder is viable as well, but QD sweeper really breaks through a lot of stuff. Substitute means that Sucker Punchers can't revenge, and you can set subs while the opponent is sleeping, so it's quite easy to set up.