Evasion Clause Discussion Topic

[Katakiri]

I didn't read all the post, but i don't think that people were bitching around about Garchomp and Brightpowder because they had a bias against defensive playstyles.
Quite the opposite. Any poke that has been accused of being broken or almost broken in any tier was either straight up offensive(Mamo,Glaceon) or was just aiding offense(Froslass).

Yeah I noticed that you never read all of my posts. You always seem to just pick at one part of them.

Yeah I'll agree Garchomp could run BrightPower and I said so in my post, but I also said that Mamoswine is never too fond of giving up his offense or speed-boosting item for a 10% evasion increase. Not to say that he can't but from my experience, most certainly don't. Glaceon isn't exactly a notable threat in any tier that Snow Warning is permitted due to it having extremely common counters. Really ANY defensive Pokemon can be classified as "aiding offense" but that becomes dependent on it's teammates.

 

[Paolo]

I really don't understand why people want evasion items unbanned so badly. Most of arguments as to why they should be unbanned seem to be that they aren't game breaking or that the 10% accuracy drop isn't a big deal. Do we really need to add another factor of luck to a game that we want to be as competitive as possible just to have one less ban?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Well, I personally believe that banning the evasion abilities as a whole is a non-option. Even with the relatively low usage of Pokemon like Sandslash and Froslass, I don't believe that we should completely eliminate the ability to use some Pokemon because of the luck factor involved in others. That point could be plenty debatable, however, since the soft ban of the two would have little to no effect on the OU metagame (although if that ban were to extend into the lower metagames...)

Secondly, the complex ban. As many other people do, I believe we should try to avoid complex bans as much as possible. Swift Swim + Drizzle was understandable, since it balanced out an otherwise broken playstyle without completely eliminating it. However, Sand Veil + Sand Stream and Snow Cloak + Snow Warning isn't just a team theme that you can throw together and knock out half of the OU ladder with it. There are very few Pokemon that can actually utilize and abuse such a strategy. I have also found little to no trouble dealing with the occasional miss due to Snow Cloak/Sand Veil. While it's true that a miss on Mamoswine in UU could have cost you a Pokemon or even the game, OU is a bit more unfriendly towards Mamo, making it harder for it to destroy your team after a miss. Sand Veil Gliscor also isn't quite the offensive behemoth that Garchomp was, and it's quite a bit easier to check/counter. In addition, this complex ban might further complicate things, such as inviting a retest of Garchomp and possibly of Hail in UU.

I propose that we start off slow, beginning by unbanning Lax Incense and Brightpowder. If my knowledge serves me correctly, half of the reason these items were banned was because of the popularity of using them with Garchomp to abuse hax and destroy teams. In essence, the items were an attempt to nerf Chomp before its inevitable ban, so I believe that these should be unbanned due to Chomp's absence. That said, I am aware that Pokemon who do try to abuse Sand Veil/Snow Cloak a little might utilize these items and further abuse that luck factor, in which case we can then choose whether or not to reban the items, ban the abilities, or institute a complex ban. Still, I cannot see this happening anytime soon, since Pokemon like SV Gliscor and Mamoswine much more appreciate Leftovers and Life Orb/Choice Band, respectively. I guess there's still Froslass, but what does it honestly do if you miss against it? Paralyze something? Set up one more measly layer of Spikes? Maybe set up a Sub or hit you with an uninvested Blizzard? Annoying, but probably not game-changing.

My two cents.

 

[eriados]

For the record, I support the complex ban in this case, for a couple of reasons. First, it's the most elegant solution of all of them. Secondly, it doesn't restrict the usage of non-broken pokemon. The problem with Evasion of all kinds is that it reduces the fairness and competitiveness of the battles. If I have a deadly boosting sweeper, e.g. Volcarona, Terrakion, Dragonite, etc., one miss could potentially decide the match. That's not particularly fair to my opponent. If both were to run evasive moves/abilities/items, the match would essentially come down to a roll of the dice, which should be avoided since it detracts from the competitiveness of the playing environment. Non-completely accurate moves do exist in the metagame, like Stone Edge, Focus Blast, and Fire Blast. However, those are all choices I can make when I pcik the moves, so I control how much of that luck I want to factor into my decisions. If I choose not to use anything except perfectly accurate moves, I have made a conscious decision. Conversely, I cannot control whether my opponent uses evasive items/abilities/moves. It's out of my hands, so I shouldn't be punished for the uncompetitive or unfair choices of my opponent. Also, I have noticed a lot of "slippery slope" arguments in this thread, which really need to be avoided.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

So it is basically coming down to how much luck should be allowed. I know the comparison has bee made with brightpowder to other hax items, but what about sand veil / snow cloak to other hax abilities:

Hax Abilities

Cursed Body
Cute Charm
Effect Spore
Flame Body
Poison Heal
Poison Touch
Static

I’m sure I missed a few, don't bother to point them out. The point is, its not all about evasion here, I can tell you personally that flame body has fucked me more often than sand veil or snow cloak ever has. Think a stray paralysis or burn can't affect a battle more than a miss? Surely you have never played pokemon then. Outright there is little to no objective difference between these abilities and there evasion cousins. So, under some of the "gets rid of unnessisary luck for consistency" ideology, these all should be banned at some level. If there is some solid objective difference between them, I would like to hear it.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

So it is basically coming down to how much luck should be allowed. I know the comparison has bee made with brightpowder to other hax items, but what about sand veil / snow cloak to other hax abilities:

Hax Abilities

Cursed Body
Cute Charm
Effect Spore
Flame Body
Poison Heal
Poison Touch

I’m sure I missed a few, don't bother to point them out. The point is, its not all about evasion here, I can tell you personally that flame body has fucked me more often than sand veil or snow cloak ever has. Think a stray paralysis or burn can't affect a battle more than a miss? Surely you have never played pokemon then. Outright there is little to no objective difference between these abilities and there evasion cousins. So, under some of the "gets rid of unnessisary luck for consistency" ideology, these all should be banned at some level. If there is some solid objective difference between them, I would like to hear it.

You forgot Static. Just sayin'.

Anyway, Cursed Body is too uncommon competitively (at least from my experience), Cute Charm doesn't work on opponents with the same gender, and everything else can be solved by using Lum Berry or having a cleric, and if you really have a problem with such things, it shouldn't be too hard to find room for a cleric.

Also, things like Flame Body are easier to avoid, since you don't have to use moves that make contact on things like Volcarona.

 

[Lockeness]

A complex ban on sand veil and Snow Cloak in their respective weathers would best suit the current metagame. Our goal as a community is to play a better more balanced game of pokemon in a professional setting. While it does make the game slightly more complex for newer users to understand a complex ban solves the problem of increased hax from evasion. Complex bans on evasion allow for a better more universal and "smooth" ban system. Evasion is obviously hax, and should be justifiably banned.

Complex bans are not flawless, but they do allow for tighter more specific controls on the metagame. Fewer bans does not necessarily equal a better metagame. Bans are a means toward an end. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak stand in obvious violation to the desires of the pokemon community when it comes to regulating hax. We need a more solid and cohesive rule set and a complex ban is the solution.

 

[Paolo]

@Scarfwynaut

Like LucarioarkZ said everything you have listed other then Cursed Body can be prevented through use of Lum Berry a Cleric or having different genders on your team respectively. The key point is you have the option of preventing these forms of hax from happening where as with evasion you don't get that luxury.

 

[Entere]

Might as well ban scald while we're at it then?

There is really no reason to single out one type of hax, when tonnes of others still exist, and have a far greater impact on the outcome of a match.


There are Never-miss moves for a reason y'know. Albeit weak apart from the rare aura sphere.

Ahaha, but as mentioned in my other posts, THEIR DAMAGE CAN BE REDUCED. This isn't a question of how it compares to other hax. All hax abilities / conditions / items can be avoided or damage reduced or don't do much to the pokemon, respectively.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

While most of those "status afflictions and conditions" can be avoided with a lum berry or cleric, fact is most teams don't always have that (similar to how most teams don't have aerial ace and aura sphere). Even if they do, it is still incredibly inopportune and in the right conditions still a game breaking bit of hax, similar to how a single miss can break a game.

I do realize this argument has the flaw that “if they are similar enough, it should also be banned,” deal. But I don’t think we are going to ban cute charm…

 

[Dragon Rider]

To me, the entire issue has never been about a matter of broken or not. It's about consistency of ruleset and reasonably managing luck factors. We can argue about the different luck factors and how they compare to evasion, but that's not what this topic is about. We can argue some other time about whether when these clauses were initially created whether or not there should there have been a flinch clause. We're looking at evasion clause right now. Now, we as a site, both when Evasion Clause was first created, and then once again at the beginning of Gen 5, determined that Evasion is a luck factor that we would like to control, regardless of whether or not it's actually broken.

So, if you're going to tailor your arguments towards me, leave brokenness out of the equation because I know that generally, none of these things are probably broken. I'm simply looking to enforce our decision at the beginning of this generation that we should manage evasion through a clause. I believe that if we're going to decide that evasion is a luck modifier that we're going to manage in this way, that we should create a consistent rule that reasonably encompasses all direct evasion modifiers. If you're going to argue that neither Sandstream + Sand Veil nor Brightpowder/Lax Incense are broken, then you're going to have to deal with the fact that Double Team most likely isn't broken either. So should we completely get rid of Evasion Clause? A supermajority of policy makers felt that we shouldn't and neither do I. So that leaves the issue of how we make this rule consistent (which it unfortunately hasn't been for years). I think the complex ban is the best way to do this.

May I ask you directly then?Why is it that if brokeness or the overall competetiveness of the evasion in question is not subject to debate than why is Tangled Feet and to a lesser extent Acupressure,Starf Berry, and even Metronome NOT included in the proposal?

 

[Entere]

That's not exactly what I mean. Burn - fire types / special attackers, Toxic - steels, Thunder Wave - walls and ground types, confusion - switch out, etc. These don't really matter unless to the right pokes. It requires an element of prediction that requires skill. A miss from evasion, has no right to be there (don't even mention crits and damage rolls. We're not trying to overwrite the game here.)

 

[Tobes]

This is not a discussion about changing of the tiering of anything other than what is listed in the OP. Move along everyone. Stay focused on the actual point of this thread.

 

[Paolo]

While most of those "status afflictions and conditions" can be avoided with a lum berry or cleric, fact is most teams don't always have that (similar to how most teams don't have aerial ace and aura sphere).

How is the fact you can run an Aerial Ace or Aura Sphere user anywhere near similar to using a lum berry or cleric? You can put a lum berry on any Pokemon and using a cleric has way more use then preventing a hax ability. having an Aerial Ace user is extremely impractical and Aura Sphere has terrible distribution. The point is yes you can get around evasion however it's way more impractical then just simply complex banning it.

 

[Pidge]

I feel as though banning Brightpowder and Lax Incense is a futile practice at eliminating luck from the game. Others have already mentioned that luck and chance are an inherent part of the game. However, I don't argue that Brightpowder and Lax Incense add a marginal amount of luck to a game that is already full of it. I argue that these items are just plain ineffective, and I don't see why they are banned since I consider them second rate items.

What Pokemon exactly would use Brightpowder effectively rather than a different item? What offensive Pokemon would forgo Life Orb to patch up certain OHKOs and 2HKOs in exchange for a 10% chance to dodge a Pokemon's move? What kind of defensive Pokemon really benefits from a dodging an attack 10% of the time rather than healing 6.25% every turn from. Even when Garchomp was under suspect testing, Brightpowder wasn't the problem. One of the dominant sets was a Substitute one with Leftovers, rather than Brightpowder, which limited Garchomp to three Substitutes instead of four (or more), accounting for Stealth Rock.

EDIT

But what if you think these items are not broken, but you believe they should be banned for consistency with Evasion Clause? If you want to be 'consistent', all you have to do is define Evasion Clause as a rule that prevents the use of anything that increases the user's Pokemon's Evasion stages directly. I think a definition like that was accepted sometime during the Shoddy era. Moody would bypass that clause, but that can and is banned separately I believe. Alternatively, it could just be 'Double Team and Minimize' Clause. I believe that was what was used in the earlier gens.

Okay, but what if you believe that you want to be consistent in regards to just no evasion in general; you feel like you shouldn't discriminate one form of evasion from another, regardless of how indirect (Acupressure) or small (Lax Incense) it is? First, I have to tell you that if you stand by this, you should also be comfortably against Metronome, Tangled Feet, and Starf Berry. If you aren't already, you are yourself being discriminatory regarding evasion. What if you think these bans are fine still? Well at this point, I think it would be fair to say that you have banned a lot of things just for the sake of consistency rather than any actual broken merit.

That is why you must look at these Evasion luck factors one by one, rather than all at once for consistency. Can you really put Lax Incense in the same ban as Minimize, despite their noticeable difference in their magnitude? I'm going to list the main Evasion related moves, abilities, and items in question in relation to their chance of dodging a 100% move.

Minimize: 40%, first use
Double Team: 25%, first use
Sand Veil, Snow Cloak: 20%, passive, conditional
Brightpowder: 10%, passive
Lax Incense: 5%, passive

Okay, so you already knew these things. If I understand correctly, one reason being consistent is good is because you are not forced to draw a line somewhere and say 'this is the exact point Evasion stops becoming bullshit'. You avert having to be subjective by being consistent. You don't have to say where black becomes white in this gray area. However, I think if you use this rationale, you are being somewhat negligent. You are knowledgable of the metagame and you should be able to judge at which point Evasion becomes a problem just by considering the move, item, or ability in context of the game, and reflecting on your past experiences with them. Will giving the opportunity to allow OU Pokemon to hold Brightpowder drastically make things worse? Is this the point where there is too much 'luck'? What about Gliscor, Froslass, Mamoswine, and Cacturne? Are those Pokemon currently a major detriment to the game; have they consistently been a problem with those abilities? Is this the point where there is too much 'luck'? Then you go up to Double Team. Is the potential for almost every Pokemon, rather than a select few (SV and SC ability Pokes), to be able to dodge moves 25% of the time a bad thing? Is this the point where there is too much 'luck'?

If you are still fine with this all for the sake of consistency, then can you address exactly what is inheritantly wrong with a 100% accuracy move missing? Why should Close Combat or Thunderbolt hit with 100% accuracy 100% of the time? Yes it could potentially be frustrating for a move like that to miss at a crucial moment, but that is Pokemon for you; it can be full of frustrating things regardless. Just because it says 100% in the move description in the cartridge does not mean it should hit all the time; you are just choosing to make it that way. The game even flat out lies to us about these sort of expectations humorously enough. Quick Attack does not 'always strike first' or Swift does not 'never miss' (it will not hit a Pokemon in the middle of Dig or similar move).

And yet another thing, if Close Combat or Thunderbolt are supposed to hit with 100% accuracy all the time, then what is with those damn Ghost types and Ground types and Volt Absorb Pokemon? Or even that pesky Protect move? What if you select one of those moves, but hit yourself from Confusion or are fully paralyzed? What major difference is there from a move missing, a move failing, or a move not even being executed? Hell, I could use Sand-Attack and literally make a move miss that is supposed to hit 100% of the time. My point is that these moves aren't and shouldn't be guaranteed to do something like hit all the time. They won't whether you get rid of Evasion alltogether or not.

 

[Paolo]

@Pidge

You are right it might be a futile attempt at removing luck from the game however what good would unbanning them do? Why don't we for consistency sake make the evasion clause actually encompass all forms of evasion?

 

[Pocket]

Lockeness - Evasion is obviously hax, and should be justifiably banned.

This is mainly the sentiment of the pro-complex ban group, and it's not a sufficient justification to ban Sand Veil / Snow Cloak. Serene Grace / Super Luck doubles the chance of hax; with such lines of reasoning, Serene Grace and Super Luck are also getting the ban hammer.

You may rationalize how the 20% miss chance is somehow a much worse hax crime than the 20% chance to frz something with Serene Grace Ice Punch or a 12.5% chance to crit, but you'll be a fool to not realize that these abilities fall into the same category - luck abilities that deliberately increase luck factors for the abusers. Yes, they all have "unfair" advantages - when was Pokemon ever balanced? They are Pokemon that are more well-endowed than others - deal with it.

How have we dealt with such hax Pokemon in the past? We ban the broken ones (Garchomp & Shaymin-S) and simply deal with the other manageable hax Pokemon. Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil, but one cannot induce from Garchomp that all Sand Veil Pokemon are broken. I was scratching my head when Lucaroark was justifying this complex ban by explaining how Garchomp with evasion is overpowering - that's why it is uber. SD Acrobatics Gliscor, the most relevant example in the OU scene, is MUCH slower and weaker than Garchomp - it's not hard to have multiple checks to Gliscor.

Just like any minimal hax, you could manage Sand Veil misses / Snow Cloak misses, too. The same way how CM Latias can avoid being knocked out from a critical hit or be crippled from Jirachi's Thunder paralysis or a Politoed's Ice Beam freeze by putting up a Substitute, one can provide resources to his or her team to minimize the effect of misses. One can either add a Pokemon that can take multiple hits from Gliscor or Mamoswine for instance, so a single miss wont translate to death. Another option is to hold multiple checks to such mons, so if 1 is taken out by a freak miss it's not an instant loss. There's also a matter of adapting to such playstyles. The best way to defeat these monsters is to never let up on the offensive pressure. Go out 100% offensive so that Gliscor would never have a Substitute and a Swords Dance boost at the same time. Learning how to build teams or adapting one's battling behavior to adapt to such strategies is hax management, which is an essential skill in competitive battling.

Also one can minimize the chances of a miss due to Sand Veil by using more accurate moves, so such decision to use more accurate moves over powerful moves also applies here as well.

Thus, no, a Sand Veil miss is not totally out of your control; it is just as managable as a paraflinch hax from Jirachi.

Sand Veil miss is hax, but hax is part of competitive battling - we deal with it. It is an important skill to practice damage control when hax strikes, otherwise you would be losing to more than Sand Veil misses. Banning such minor inconveniences would only add unnecessary ruleset to the metagame. Even more, it hampers the viability of non-broken Pokemon like Sandslash or Cacturne, which is absurd, since bans and clauses are supposed to prohibit or restrict the use of broken elements.

 

[kniteowl]

Is it possible just to modify the game so that whenever evasion clause is activated the abilities Sand Veil and Snow Cloak never activate?

You can still use the ability on some pokemon like Cacturne and Sandslash so you can still use generation 3 & 4 tutor moves, they just never activate during the battle.

It'd be like using the pokemon without an ability at all and those pokemon are generally used in the lower tiers anyway so their abilities are never used anyway (unless someone uses Sandstorm/hail as actual moves which is probably never)

Sounds like a nice middle ground to me, Ban the evasion hax but not the ability so you can still use the pokemon in whatever tier.

Assuming that is, there's an expert out there who can modify the game to work that way.

 

[Paolo]

@kniteowl

I'm pretty sure it's Smogon policy not to modify in game mechanics.

 

[Jimera0]

Alright, as usual after reading a ban policy debate I am demoralized and lost some of my faith in humanity, but that is neither here nor there.

Instead I'm simply going to make my case for why we should just keep shit the way it is: this stuff doesn't affect the metagame seriously enough to be worth worrying about. I can think of only two Pokemon that regularly abuses one of these ability combinations. One in Froslass, who uses it simply as an opportunity to potentially get another line of hazards up, and Gliscor who can theoretically use it to boost to +6 but rarely actually manages it anyway.

I have one question to you people; How often do you actually notice this stuff affecting your playing experience on the Smogon server? Once in every 80 battles or so? Less? Well probably a bit more if you're in UU where Froslass roams, but even then it can't be terribly common. So, I ask, why does it matter so much that we remove it, or even if we keep it?

This is hugely different from double team and minimize, particularly double team which just about anything can learn. If those existed we'd be dealing with gimmicky evasion boosting sets on everything, and the metagame would be much more luck based. That's why evasion clause was put into place in the first place, was to avoid that affect on the metagame. I see no point in banning further evasion based things for consistencies sake when what really matters is the quality of the metagame.

That being said, I can actually see the benefit of banning Lax Incense and Brightpowder because, being items, they can be applied to anything. While it would hardly be competitive it surely would be annoying. Still if I had gotten in that debate when it was still going on I still would've advised against it simply because it isn't a significant enough factor. Well, maybe it was back when Garchomp was around, but it isn't anymore. The only reason I'm not saying "unban it now!" is because it's already done. It's just as insignificant being banned as it would be unbanned, and further change would just cause unnecessary (though slight) confusion.

Short version: Why bother banning it when it hardly affects the metagame in the first place? Why both unbanning the items when they hardly affect the metagame either? Semantics really should not play into this; the quality and accessibility of the metagame is our foremost concern, not how well the rules line up with each other.

Super Short version: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

[2sly4u]

Semantics really should not play into this; the quality and accessibility of the metagame is our foremost concern, not how well the rules line up with each other.

If quality of the metagame is the main concern, then it should absolutely be banned. What do evasion-boosting moves add the game? Nothing but luck. I've used Sand Veil Gliscor with T-Tar, and I know I've won at least a dozen matches I should've lost thanks to a timely miss or two. While I was happy I got the wins, the victories felt hollow because I knew I was outplayed and didn't deserve them.

Competitively, this game should be based on the skill of the two battlers, not whether or not Person A's Scizor missed their Bullet Punch and died because Person B's Mamoswine has an ability that lets him avoid damage 20% of the time. After definitively outplaying my opponent, the last thing I want is to have my victory left up to the RNG gods because his last pokemon is Cacturne. In fairness, evasion hax isn't always this blatant, but the point remains the same: strategically, Snow Cloak and Sand Veil add nothing good to the metagame.

I'm in favor of the complex ban. I don't think that the Evasion abilities are a serious enough problem to ban average pokemon like Frosslass. However, I'm all for removing unecessary luck from the metagame, and that's all that Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are.

EDIT: I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, please don't compare Evasion boosters and inaccurate moves; if I lose because Focus Blast misses, it's my own fault for using it. I can't do anything about Evasion except use horribly weak moves like Aerial Ace (lol) and Swift (rofl).

 

[Jimera0]

If quality of the metagame is the main concern, then it should absolutely be banned. What do evasion-boosting moves add the game? Nothing but luck. I've used Sand Veil Gliscor with T-Tar, and I know I've won at least a dozen matches I should've lost thanks to a timely miss or two. While I was happy I got the wins, the victories felt hollow because I knew I was outplayed and didn't deserve them.

Competitively, this game should be based on the skill of the two battlers, not whether or not Person A's Scizor missed their Bullet Punch and died because Person B's Mamoswine has an ability that lets him avoid damage 20% of the time. After definitively outplaying my opponent, the last thing I want is to have my victory left up to the RNG gods because his last pokemon is Cacturne. In fairness, evasion hax isn't always this blatant, but the point remains the same: strategically, Snow Cloak and Sand Veil add nothing good to the metagame.

I'm in favor of the complex ban. I don't think that the Evasion abilities are a serious enough problem to ban average pokemon like Frosslass. However, I'm all for removing unecessary luck from the metagame, and that's all that Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are.

EDIT: I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, please don't compare Evasion boosters and inaccurate moves; if I lose because Focus Blast misses, it's my own fault for using it. I can't do anything about Evasion except use horribly weak moves like Aerial Ace (lol) and Swift (rofl).

Maybe I didn't make my case clear enough. The point here isn't whether or not more or less luck is good for the meta or not. It is not an argument over whether a better metagame is more skill based or more faithful to the original source.

My point here is that the difference is too minor to warrant our attention. We have better things to worry about than something that only affects a tiny fraction of games. For example, you said

I've won at least a dozen matches I should've lost thanks to a timely miss or two

My point is a dozen out of HOW MANY? That is if it even was a dozen. The way you presented that number made it clear it was not an accurate number or account or even an estimation so much as an impression of how often it happened. But let's even say you are correct about the number and it was around a dozen games you won due to a timely miss from Sand Viel/Snow Cloak. Just think about the scale of this. How many games have you played? Hundreds probably, and if you're particularly prolific perhaps even thousands. And this is from the perspective of a user of the ability, so obviously you're going to see results from it more often than a non-user (who make upmost of the player base) would.

I'd hazard a bet that more people would be affected by having their teams denied from competing on the ladder than are currently affected by veil/cloak hax now, and I dare say it's just as annoying having your team not work and not knowing why as it is to have a turn of hax, and that's not even taking into account all the various groups that for whatever reason are ticked at the ban in the first place.

My point is I don't see the need for upheaval over something so minor. It's making a mountain of a molehill, and attempting to bulldoze that molehill will ruffle just as many feathers as leaving it would. Just let it lie and concentrate on playing instead of bitching for once.*

*comment is directed at the people in general, not just you 2sly4u, not just you. I'm just frustrated that people can't just be a little more laid back about things.

 

[2sly4u]

My point is a dozen out of HOW MANY? That is if it even was a dozen. The way you presented that number made it clear it was not an accurate number or account or even an estimation so much as an impression of how often it happened. But let's even say you are correct about the number and it was around a dozen games you won due to a timely miss from Sand Viel/Snow Cloak. Just think about the scale of this. How many games have you played? Hundreds probably, and if you're particularly prolific perhaps even thousands. And this is from the perspective of a user of the ability, so obviously you're going to see results from it more often than a non-user (who make upmost of the player base) would.

I'd hazard a bet that more people would be affected by having their teams denied from competing on the ladder than are currently affected by veil/cloak hax now, and I dare say it's just as annoying having your team not work and not knowing why as it is to have a turn of hax, and that's not even taking into account all the various groups that for whatever reason are ticked at the ban in the first place.

Of course it's not an accurate count. It's not like I keep a tally. But a dozen games is an educated guess. For the record, I've probably played around 300 games with that team, so around 4% of my games had outcome-affecting evasion hax, and IMO that's 4% too much.

People's teams wouldn't need to be reworked very much if they opt for the complex ban. They could slap on an alternate ability and call it a day, and even then they'd only need to if running weather. Besides, most evasion hax abusers have at least one other decent ability so it's not a huge sacrifice.

Also, I would hardly call my last post "bitching". If you read carefully, I said that I don't think Evasion Hax is a huge deal. To be honest, I don't care much either way. I was just throwing out my two cents.

 

[BurningMan]

May I ask you directly then?Why is it that if brokeness or the overall competetiveness of the evasion in question is not subject to debate than why is Tangled Feet and to a lesser extent Acupressure,Starf Berry, and even Metronome NOT included in the proposal?

I think you raise a good point here, even though these things are luck reliant they still have the possibility to raise Evasion and if we really want a consistant Rule set these things should be banned as well.
Its not like anyone actually uses them, but by banning them with an extended evasion clause it would show that we want to keep the complete meta game free from evasion boosts no matter if they are good or even broken.

 

[Spaniard]

No one could have explained it better than pocket. That's exactly the way I see it.