np: UU Stage 5 - Every Rose Has Its Thorns

[kokoloko]

Okay, since I'm now on the senate I guess I should post my opinion on Deoxys-D here or w/e. I'ma keep it short for now because I'll have to write long paragraphs later.

Basically, I'm on the fence leaning towards ban. The main reason is due to how much less viable defensive teams become with Deoxys running around. Because honestly, you either keep up the offense at all times as to prevent it from setting up too much, or you have to rely on lolspinners to not get fucked by hazards. I'm not even talking about how well it breaks stall with Taunt + Recover, because well... its a stallbreaker so its supposed to do that.

Then again, there's the argument that metagame adaptation is normal and whatnot so yeah...

If I was to vote right now, I'd say ban, but I'm not decided yet so feel free to try to change my mind.

 

[Godsend]

Okay, since I'm now on the senate I guess I should post my opinion on Deoxys-D here or w/e. I'ma keep it short for now because I'll have to write long paragraphs later.

Basically, I'm on the fence leaning towards ban. The main reason is due to how much less viable defensive teams become with Deoxys running around. Because honestly, you either keep up the offense at all times as to prevent it from setting up too much, or you have to rely on lolspinners to not get fucked by hazards. I'm not even talking about how well it breaks stall with Taunt + Recover, because well... its a stallbreaker so its supposed to do that.

Then again, there's the argument that metagame adaptation is normal and whatnot so yeah...

If I was to vote right now, I'd say ban, but I'm not decided yet so feel free to try to change my mind.

I agree 100%. Full "stall" is so hard to run with Deo around. The best way to get around it is to use Xatu, which not every team has a slot for. Still, I'm not sure if preserving an uncommon playstyle is grounds for a ban.

 

[Byrn Dragonstone]

Crobat makes for a pretty good Deoxys counter for stall. Always outspeeds and can Taunt/Super Fang/Brave Bird. The only thing Deoxys can do back is Thunderwave on the switch, but it really doesn't have the movepool for Thunderwave. Taunt/Spikes/Recover are a must on every set, Stealth Rocks and Seismic Toss/Nightshade are generally the toss ups for that last slot, though toxic can fit in pretty good too. Thunderwave on the other hand is only useful if your team really need paralysis and if you need that it would be better to go with Registeel. Especially as most of the Deoxys "counters" don't care whether they are paralyzed (Hera gets an Attack boost, Sableye uses priority anyways, Escavalier will never outrun anything anyways, ect...). Besides unless it gets the Thunderwave on the switch Crobat will always outspeed and can taunt before it does.

 

[/B/utterfree]

1. Chandelure is not broken. My Bisharp Sucker Punches it and doesn't afraid of anything. And that's just Bisharp. Chandelure needs a Scarf in order to outspeed the things it wants to check before their coverage move kisses it goodbye. Running Specs is okay, but you will be outsped.

2. I will ban Deoxys-D, for like Roserade, it breaks Stall and forces teams to run offensive mons and RideSpinnas.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

Bulky deo-d with mental herb is a very good anti-lead

 

[Closetalker]

Crobat makes for a pretty good Deoxys counter for stall. Always outspeeds and can Taunt/Super Fang/Brave Bird. The only thing Deoxys can do back is Thunderwave on the switch, but it really doesn't have the movepool for Thunderwave. Taunt/Spikes/Recover are a must on every set, Stealth Rocks and Seismic Toss/Nightshade are generally the toss ups for that last slot, though toxic can fit in pretty good too. Thunderwave on the other hand is only useful if your team really need paralysis and if you need that it would be better to go with Registeel. Especially as most of the Deoxys "counters" don't care whether they are paralyzed (Hera gets an Attack boost, Sableye uses priority anyways, Escavalier will never outrun anything anyways, ect...). Besides unless it gets the Thunderwave on the switch Crobat will always outspeed and can taunt before it does.

In this scenario you could just taunt crobat as it switches in and set up some more spikes.

 

[pokekazzam]

I think Chandelure should go BL. Nothing except snorlax with thick fat and porygon2 with trace can take its specs attacks.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

But it is incredibly predictable.

It is too slow to get past anything with better than average speed unless it is scarfed (and then it is easy to revenge), it is weak to all hazards, it is pursuit bait and it can generally be played around if you are in any way semi-competent.

 

[pokekazzam]

But it is incredibly predictable.

It is too slow to get past anything with better than average speed unless it is scarfed (and then it is easy to revenge), it is weak to all hazards, it is pursuit bait and it can generally be played around if you are in any way semi-competent.

Every UU team high on the ladder has a spinner so keeping the hazards away won't be that big of a problem. Sub split chandelure is the most common chandelier and easily sets up on threats like hitmontop and 2HKOs most of UU.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I think Chandelure should go BL. Nothing except snorlax with thick fat and porygon2 with trace can take its specs attacks.

So use Snorlax or Porygon2? Or prediction? Or faster Pokemon?

Specs Chandelure is really strong, but if it has numerous checks and two 100% counters who are incredibly useful in the metagame and commonly run Pursuit or recovery I wouldn't call it broken...

 

[/B/utterfree]

I think Chandelure should go BL. Nothing except snorlax with thick fat and porygon2 with trace can take its specs attacks.

The only reason I could see Chandelure going to BL would be because of Shadow Tag, a hidden ability which has yet to be released. On the other hand, Chandelure is still piss-easy to kill even with Shadow Tag as its ability.

Many, many Pokemon use coverage moves that destroy Chandelure in a heartbeat. Fire/Ghost is a really horrible defensive typing, and only a so-so offensive typing (even in OU it's not impressive by any means). Its base Special Attack is the only good stat it has, and if it gets outsped (90 base Speed is often too middling for it), it gets killed without a single thought.

Priority also spells its imminent doom. I kill any Chandelure set with Bisharp because no Chandy set can survive a Sucker Punch, let alone a +2 Swords Dance-boosted Sucker Punch.

I use Chandelure in my Dark Horse OU team with Parasect exclusively because of Flash Fire (its other abilities are all meh when you consider its lackluster defenses and out-of-place movepool for Shadow Tag). Even then, there are better Flash Fire users who I will pick when I edit my team.

I tried using SubSplit Chandelure. I essentially laughed it out of my UU team after it failed horribly several games in a row.

IN FACT, I've faced against DW Chandelures on the Pokemon Online main server early-on. How the hell it managed to do much of anything in DW OU to get kicked upstairs to DW Ubers is beyond me, as I dispose of it easily.

 

[SOMALIA]

People only focus only what Chandelure CAN DO and not how it fares itself in the metagame, it is fucking pathetic on the defensive side and its sp.def isn't anything special compared to other offensive tyrants in the UU tier. Even if it uses a Specs set, it locks itself in a move and with every player using some form of heavy offense you will get set up upon one way or another, you got Arcanine, Kingdra, other Chandelure, Weaville, Snorlax, Flygon, Milotic, Rhyperior and alot more checksot o this guy, heck he can barely switch in safely with the way things are in this metagame, unless your opponent is shit and locks one of his mons into a dumb move or uses stall. I personally just paralyze him from early on with Deoxys-D after setting up with sr..and hes done for. I got also got Weaville+Arcanine+Kingdra which easily massacre this nigga, not to mention he gets spanked by entry hazards.

 

[kokoloko]

Kay so now that we're done feeding the troll, I want to bring up something that will likely be as controversial as Deoxys-D -- Kingdra.

I won't elaborate much, since I'm sure a lot of people can relate, but imo its really walking the line between "really fucking good" and "broken." Not only does it have that fantastic offensive and defensive typing, but it can easily go physical, special, or even mixed if you're into that. The only three Pokemon I can think of off the top of my head that can safely switch into any Kingdra set (barring random Hidden Powers of course) are Physically Defensive Slowking (guaranteed to break 4/0 Kingdra's Subs with Dragon Tail with only 12 Atk EVs), Haze Milotic, and Specially Defensive Escavalier. If you don't run one of these two on your team and happen to guess the Kingdra set incorrectly, you risk getting maimed by the special sets or set up on by the Dragon Dancers.

That sounds awfully familiar if you ask me... old DPP players will know what I'm talking about.

 

[pokekazzam]

Kay so now that we're done feeding the troll, I want to bring up something that will likely be as controversial as Chandelure -- Kingdra.

I won't elaborate much, since I'm sure a lot of people can relate, but imo its really walking the line between "really fucking good" and "broken." Not only does it have that fantastic offensive and defensive typing, but it can easily go physical, special, or even mixed if you're into that. There only two Pokemon I can think of off the top of my head that can safely switch into any Kingdra set (barring random Hidden Powers of course) are Physically Defensive Slowking (guaranteed to break 4/0 Kingdra's Subs with Dragon Tail with only 12 Atk EVs) and Specially Defensive Escavalier. If you don't run one of these two on your team and happen to guess the Kingdra set incorrectly, you risk getting maimed by the special sets or set up on by the Dragon Dancers.

That sounds awfully familiar if you ask me... old DPP peeps will know what I'm talking about.

Kingdra is just too underwhelming. Spdef empoleon can switch into kingdra all the time and so can suicune with roar and most bulky waters(which fill the UU metagame). The rain dance kingdra is the only good kingdra set because it nullifies the SS from hippopotas.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Kingdra is just too underwhelming. Spdef empoleon can switch into kingdra all the time and so can suicune with roar and most bulky waters(which fill the UU metagame). The rain dance kingdra is the only good kingdra set because it nullifies the SS from hippopotas.

1. SDef Empoleon won't be living through a Hidden Power Electric, I don't think. Same for a majority of Bulky Waters in UU. There's also the lovely fact that SDef Empoleon doesn't wall physical sets! (Unless you can prove that it can...)

2. Rain Dance Kingdra is really good, but it's not just because of Sandstorm nullification. Under rain, Kingdra is one of the deadliest sweepers ever. Its Speed doubles under rain because of an ability known as Swift Swim. Without Drizzle (for a multitude of obvious reasons), Kingdra must set up its own rain or rely on support from Tornadus (which is not available in UU) or someone else (Bronzong?)

 

[kokoloko]

gdi I hate getting quoted before I have a chance to edit my post...

Anyway, for reference:

Timid Specs Kingdra Hidden Power Electric on 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Empoleon: 35.5% - 41.9%
Modest Kingdra: 39.2% - 46.2%

Hydro Pump still does a good chunk: 25% - 29.3%

With Spikes being so common and Empoleon's lack of recovery, good luck countering Specs Kingdra with it for long.

Oh and btw, a +1 Outrage from Adamant 160 Atk Kingdra does 35.8% - 42.2% to that same Empoleon.

As for Suicune:

+1 Adamant 160 Atk Outrage vs 252/252 Bold Suicune: 38.9% - 46%
Timid Specs Draco Meteor 60.4% - 71.3% followed by 30.4% - 35.9%, so a clean 2HKO with Stealth Rock alone.

I wouldn't call that a counter. Especially not with that nonexistent offensive presence.

Man this is making me doubt even Escavalier can handle it as well as I thought it could.

 

[GTS]

While Kingdra has a lot of things to its benefit, including probably the best defensive typing, swift swim, multiple boosting moves, etc. his main drawback is that without several boosts, he fails to do much damage to a lot of mons.

His ability to hit from either side of the spectrum allows him to get some surprise KO's but it hardly pushes Kingdra into the broken domain.

Empoleon is a pretty good counter to Kingdra. Ferroseed makes a theoretical perfect counter, but overall is not the best mon for most teams.

 

[jamashawalker]

The true threat of kingdra is its ability set up at least 2 DDs against the majority of the UU metagame. So many pokes dont wanna give him that time or day for him to set up or else its a simple gg. I wish it could be compared to raikou if only it didnt boost its speed in the process :/

 

[Pocket]

Kingdra does have the typing and the movepool, but its offensive stats are lacking, imo. 85 base Speed is easy revenge-kill if we're talking about a DDer. And 95 Atk / 95 SpA =/= 135 Atk / 110 SpA. It really needs 1 or 2 DD boosts or a Rain Dance boost to really become threatening. Generic Steel-types coupled with a generic Water absorber can take Kingdra's hits comfortably. It's also vulnerable to powerful hits before and while it sets up Dragon Dance or Rain Dance, since it's slow without set-up.

It's good, but not broken in practice, from what I can tell.

 

[Godsend]

Kingdra does have the typing and the movepool, but its offensive stats are lacking, imo. 85 base Speed is easy revenge-kill if we're talking about a DDer. And 95 Atk / 95 SpA =/= 135 Atk / 110 SpA. It really needs 1 or 2 DD boosts or a Rain Dance boost to really become threatening. Generic Steel-types coupled with a generic Water absorber can take Kingdra's hits comfortably. It's also vulnerable to powerful hits before and while it set up Dragon Dance or Rain Dance, since it's slow without set-up.

It's good, but not broken in practice, from what I can tell.

Yeah, it's a top threat, but not broken. You need to prepare for it like everything else.

 

[kokoloko]

While Kingdra has a lot of things to its benefit, including probably the best defensive typing, swift swim, multiple boosting moves, etc. his main drawback is that without several boosts, he fails to do much damage to a lot of mons.

Have you ever used the Specs set? That thing tears teams a new asshole every time it gets in. Also, lets not pretend it needs more than 2 boosts to sweep, it really doesn't.

His ability to hit from either side of the spectrum allows him to get some surprise KO's but it hardly pushes Kingdra into the broken domain.

I'm not even talking about 'surprise' KOs. I'm talking about the same thing that pushed Salamence into Uber in DPP -- the sheer fact that almost nothing can come in with confidence that it won't get raped on the switch-in or become set up fodder. The counters to the Special set become set up fodder for the DD sets and the counters to DD set can't handle the special sets.

Empoleon is a pretty good counter to Kingdra. Ferroseed makes a theoretical perfect counter, but overall is not the best mon for most teams.

Empoleon can't touch Kingdra while it takes hefty amounts of damage every time it comes in on it and lacks recovery. I fail to see how that is a counter. Ferroseed is set up fodder for the SubDD set.

Kingdra does have the typing and the movepool, but its offensive stats are lacking, imo. 85 base Speed is easy revenge-kill if we're talking about a DDer. And 95 Atk / 95 SpA =/= 135 Atk / 110 SpA. It really needs 1 or 2 DD boosts or a Rain Dance boost to really become threatening. Generic Steel-types coupled with a generic Water absorber can take Kingdra's hits comfortably. It's also vulnerable to powerful hits before and while it set up Dragon Dance or Rain Dance, since it's slow without set-up.

It's good, but not broken in practice, from what I can tell.

Granted its offensive stats are not the same as Salamence's, but then again, BW UU is not DPP OU. And again, its not that hard to set up 2 DDs or a Rain Dance -- it has all the resources to do it quite easily.

Yeah, it's a top threat, but not broken. You need to prepare for it like everything else.

It'd be cool if you posted your reasoning.

Disclaimer: Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily want to push for a ban, but I think its worth discussing further, as I know I'm not the only one who thinks Kingdra is a bitch to deal with.

 

[GTS]

Empoleon switches in on the DD, shrugs off either STAB and can roar it out.
I have not actually seen the Specs variants, but LO Rain Dance special sets as well as mixed sets.

Specs loses the ability to boost its poor offenses or its poor speed. How much does any of Kingdra's other STABs do to Empoleon?

 

[Godsend]

It'd be cool if you posted your reasoning.

Kingdra has a couple powerful sets, but it can't use both at the same time. I know this argument has been brought up a couple of times with different suspects, but it's true. It can't have an extremely powerful Draco Meteor and Outrage at the same time. It can't be bulky for set up and powerful at the same time. This is what limits it. That being said it has counters to each set and numerous checks depending on the set. Milotic can either Phaze it out or tank Draco Meteors. Same with Blastoise. With only 85 base speed, many things can revenge kill it +1 with a Scarf. The Hitmontop I use can intimidate it, tank a +0 Outrage and severely damage it with CC+SP. Kingdra is unable to switch in forever and a smart player is going to limit the amount of times that it can switch in by playing more aggressively or setting hazards etc. I'm not saying Kingdra is not and issue or dangerous, but it is not broken and it is dangerous. People just need to prepare for it.

 

[kokoloko]

Empoleon switches in on the DD, shrugs off either STAB and can roar it out.
I have not actually seen the Specs variants, but LO Rain Dance special sets as well as mixed sets.

Specs loses the ability to boost its poor offenses or its poor speed. How much does any of Kingdra's other STABs do to Empoleon?

The Specs set is really dengerous and you should really try it out before dismissing Kingdra's offense as "poor."

As for Empoleon taking care of Kingdra, I'll just point you to the same calculations I presented earlier:

Kingdra has a couple powerful sets, but it can't use both at the same time. I know this argument has been brought up a couple of times with different suspects, but it's true. It can't have an extremely powerful Draco Meteor and Outrage at the same time. It can't be bulky for set up and powerful at the same time. This is what limits it. That being said it has counters to each set and numerous checks depending on the set. Milotic can either Phaze it out or tank Draco Meteors. Same with Blastoise. With only 85 base speed, many things can revenge kill it +1 with a Scarf. The Hitmontop I use can intimidate it, tank a +0 Outrage and severely damage it with CC+SP. Kingdra is unable to switch in forever and a smart player is going to limit the amount of times that it can switch in by playing more aggressively or setting hazards etc. I'm not saying Kingdra is not and issue or dangerous, but it is not broken and it is dangerous. People just need to prepare for it.

I completely agree with you on the "can't use both sets at the same time, therefore it is limited" front, but you also have to consider that you have no way of knowing which set it's actually running when you first see it. Yes, each individual set has its counters, but what if you guess wrong and switch your Haze Milotic into a Specs Draco Meteor [63.6% - 75.1% (Modest) or 58.3% - 68.7% (Timid) followed by 32.1% - 37.7% (Modest) or 29% - 34.4% (Timid)]? Then you lose a Pokemon because what? You didn't guess correctly? That's nice. Better yet, what if you switch your Special Wall into the DD set?

Again, the argument here isn't that any of its sets are individually overpowering. The issue, imo, is the danger that its sets present collectively. You can't nitpick and say "each individual set is perfectly counterable" when you can't possibly know which set it is when you first see it.

 

[Godsend]

The Specs set is really dengerous and you should really try it out before dismissing Kingdra's offense as "poor."

As for Empoleon taking care of Kingdra, I'll just point you to the same calculations I presented earlier:


... and here's how much a +1 252 Atk Adamant Outrage does: 46.6% - 55%

That's not exactly "shrugging off" the hit.

Now can we please stop pretending Empoleon is a reliable answer to Kingdra? :)


I completely agree with you on the "can't use both sets at the same time, therefore it is limited" front, but you also have to consider that you have no way of knowing which set it's actually running when you first see it. Yes, each individual set has its counters, but what if you guess wrong and switch your Haze Milotic into a Specs Draco Meteor [63.6% - 75.1% (Modest) or 58.3% - 68.7% (Timid) followed by 32.1% - 37.7% (Modest) or 29% - 34.4% (Timid)]? Then you lose a Pokemon because what? You didn't guess correctly? That's nice. Better yet, what if you switch your Special Wall into the DD set?

Again, the argument here isn't that any of its sets are individually overpowering. The issue, imo, is the danger that its sets present collectively. You can't nitpick and say "each individual set is perfectly counterable" when you can't possibly know which set it is when you first see it.

I agree, determining the set is the most dangerous part of Kingdra. Switching in something to beat the DD set and eating a Draco sucks. But, typically, that is the worst thing that happens (at least to me). I understand that modest Kingdra two hits Milo with Draco, but there are plenty of things that are willing to take a -2 Draco. From my experience, a Milo with ~30% hp will still have chances to switch in and get a recover off (like against a weak water type etc).

Still, I'm glad we (for the most part) agree that Kingdra is a fucking beast and a threat. I just don't really see the "broken part of it".