np: UU Stage 5 - Every Rose Has Its Thorns

[Pocket]

Not that I'm saying that Empoleon is the only way to deal with Kingdra, but it's certainly a solid one. The fact that it can switch in TWICE, more often than not, and phaze Kingdra out really hinders Kingdra's offensive capabilities, since it depends so much on setting up (Specs Kingdra is an exception, but that's easily checked). Each time it phazes out is another missed opportunity to sweep while racking up residual damage in the process. A smart opponent would not allow Kingdra to set up safely the 2nd time once it knows its set.

Kingdra's pretty predictable, too... it's essentially gonna hit you with Water / Dragon moves. I guess if you're relying on Pokemon like Slowbro to check Kingdra then you'll get fucked over by Mixed / Special Kingdra, but if you go with resistances (like Empoleon, Ferroseed) and / or overall bulky mon (Snorlax, Milotic, Shaymin), it should not be too hard to prevent it from demolishing your team. Offensive teams can hit Kingdra hard as it tries to set up Dragon Dance or Rain Dance, and they should have a mon to take a boosted hit to finish it off (or a strong priority / your own Kingdra).

I find DDKingdra pretty underwhelming in general - it just doesn't hit hard and fast enough. Rain Dance Kingdra (and I guess Specs) is the only real Kingdra set that anyone needs to truly worry about. Kingdra's a top-tier mon no doubt, but it's certainly not breaking any power boundaries of UU imo.

 

[/B/utterfree]

SUSPECTS:
1. Deoxys-D

UU METAGAME THREATS:
1. Kingdra
2. Roserade
3. Froslass

Hopefully I'm not missing anything trying to make the Senate's lives a little easier?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I've been using Kingdra for the better part of a month now and I can say that it really shouldn't be a suspect. It's great on the lower parts of the ladder because of its surprising bulk and ability to set up multiple Dragon Dances on pokemon that are high in usage down there like Roserade and Zapdos. A lack of weaknesses make it seem bulkier than it really is though. The specs set is excellent but is much easier to revenge kill than I would like, and it's also much more vulnerable to status.

And it needs 2 Dragon Dances before it can even think about outspeeding things like Stoutland, Scarf Flygon and Rotom-C. This is a huge liability. Kingdra is pretty good but it suddenly loses its effectiveness when you get high up on the ladder. It's pretty easy to control with any moderately offensive team.

 

[TheBaron]

Most Kingdra sets without Hidden Power Electric are walled by Empoleon. With DD, Outrage, Waterfall and Rest or Subby, Kingdra cannot do anything to Empoleon, while Empoleon can 2HKO with Ice Beam. I strongly recommend Agility Empoleon for those who have trouble with Kingdra.

 

[Closetalker]

Dragon Dance and Specs Kingdra are good sets that have their uses, but the the special Rain Dance variants are the only ones that are truly difficult to contend with.

Still, it not only requires a turn of setup but it has a handful of checks/counters that prevent it from sweeping unless they've been properly worn down or dispatched (Shaymin, Empoleon, Milotoc, Blastoise, Registeel, Deo-D, Snorlax, Pory2, Slowbro).

 

[alexwolf]

I think that Hippowdon should get a retest, for 2 reasons.

The first reason is Bronzong! Bronzong counters the previously broken duo of Stout + Hippo, while being very difficult to wear down due to SR resistance, SS immunity, Toxic and Spikes immunity. So the only passive way to wear him down is through a Burn, which is unlikely, because Bronzong has no business switching into the likes of Milotic, Rotom-H, Mew, Chandelure, Empoleon, Blastoise, Sableye, Slowbro, and Suicune anyway. The only mon that Bronzong would switch-in to get burned from is wall breaking Missy.

Bronzong almost singe handedly checks the previous sand teams, which pretty much consisted of Stoutland, Hippo, Zam (doesn't matter 'cause he is OU but whatever),Roserade, a bulky water and a filler. As you can see the 1/2 of those teams (not counting Zam) is checked by Zong, which gives you plenty of room to cover other threats when teambuilding. Other potential mons on those teams such as Rhyperior and Gligar are also checked pretty much by Zong.

Of 'course Zong cannot stand many Fire Fangs from Stoutland, or many Megahorns from Rhyperior, but in a game of who lasts more, Stoutland (he was the broken part of sand not Rhyperior) or Bronzong, i think that Zong wins, as Stoutland will be losing 25% life every time he comes in with SR + Spikes, and even more if he has LO. When he is at 50-60% life you also get the additional option to pick him off with many priority users such as Houndoom, Hitmontop, Bisharp and Honchkrow.

What i want to say is that with Zong in the tier, players have the option to check Sand team much easier, while Zong not only is a very useful tank overall, but is also an invaluable and very difficult for sand teams to break pivot.

There is also the addition of Swampert to UU, which may be difficult to bring in against hard hitters like Stoutland, Roserade and Rhyperior, but once he is in, most previous sand teams will have trouble taking his attacks.
Hippo is 2hkoed by the appropriate water attack (Scald 2hkoes P.Defensive Hippo and Adamant 252 Atk Waterfall 2hkoes SP.Defensive Hippo after SR ), Roserade is OHKOed-2HKOed by EQ/Ice Punch, Stoutland is 2HKOed from any STAB, while being unable to OHKO back, Rhyperior is outsped and OHKOed-2HKOed by both stabs, and every single bulky water is maimed by CB Pert (the bulkiest and sturdiest bulky water in UU, aka Slowbro, is 2hkoed from EQ after SR more than 50% of the time).
Basically CB Pert can OHKO-2HKO most of the previous sand team with just its STABS (Hippo, Roserade, Stoutland, Rhyperior, every bulky water, Gligar). So another mon that makes Sand's life harder.

The second reason is Hail teams. What i mean is that if we also retest Hail, then Sand will again have another weather to fight against. I know that Hail existed the last time, when Sand got banned, but we didn't have Swampy and Zong.

And there is no chance that Hail will be broken with Hippo in the same tier + Zong, which is a beastly check to Hail. And if people start complaining about mishax against we can simply ban Snow Cloak or Snow Cloak and call it a day, though it may not even be needed since one of the 2 best abusers, Mamo, is now UU.

So to sum it up i think that Sand and Hail should be retested.

Sand, because Zong + Swampy makes Sand's life much harder, Zam, which was one of the reasons that Sand teams were so overwhelming, is now gone, and Hail will also be keeping Sand in check.

Hail, because Zong makes Hail's life much harder, Mamo is gone, and there is Sand to check Hail teams.

 

[/B/utterfree]

1. Hippowdon having Zong as a teammate would reinforce Sand, as well as check it. The metagame would still be based entirely around sand, and banning Hippowdon was simple enough a task to make sure the UU metagame was not overcentralized. Bronzong would just make Sand more popular.

2. Abomasnow is too good for UU - it's one of the best anti-weather Pokemon in the game, checking Tyranitar and Politoed; if you wish to retest Hail, you'll have to unban Snover, the NFE version. And even with Zong countering Hail, that just makes the metagame dominant around Bronzong, not Hail. Then Bronzong would be put in BL, Snover following back up there.

3. Swampert making Sand's life harder is not necessarily true. If people used Cacturne more, that would counter Swampy hard (unless it fired an Ice Beam on the switch). There's also Roserade, and Shaymin - both those Pokemon counter Swampert as well. Swampert's also liable to being revengekilled by a speedy Stoutland (Retaliate and Return are both unresisted). Swampert may be powerful in UU, but it's not all-powerful against other Pokes in the UU tier. If it were, there would already be a Suspect Test for it and this entire argument would be valid.

Feel free to retest Sand and Hail; you'll get Bronzong banned to BL in exchange for Snover, and maybe Hippowdon.

 

[alexwolf]

1. Hippowdon having Zong as a teammate would reinforce Sand, as well as check it. The metagame would still be based entirely around sand, and banning Hippowdon was simple enough a task to make sure the UU metagame was not overcentralized. Bronzong would just make Sand more popular.

2. Abomasnow is too good for UU - it's one of the best anti-weather Pokemon in the game, checking Tyranitar and Politoed; if you wish to retest Hail, you'll have to unban Snover, the NFE version. And even with Zong countering Hail, that just makes the metagame dominant around Bronzong, not Hail. Then Bronzong would be put in BL, Snover following back up there.

3. Swampert making Sand's life harder is not necessarily true. If people used Cacturne more, that would counter Swampy hard (unless it fired an Ice Beam on the switch). There's also Roserade, and Shaymin - both those Pokemon counter Swampert as well. Swampert's also liable to being revengekilled by a speedy Stoutland (Retaliate and Return are both unresisted). Swampert may be powerful in UU, but it's not all-powerful against other Pokes in the UU tier. If it were, there would already be a Suspect Test for it and this entire argument would be valid.

Feel free to retest Sand and Hail; you'll get Bronzong banned to BL in exchange for Snover, and maybe Hippowdon.

My point is that both weathers got big nerfs, with one of their primary hard hitters gone (Zam and Mamo), and universal checks added.

So what if Zong will be also used in Sand teams? Does this mean that your own Zong will not be able to check opposing sand teams? No. So what's the problem with Zong being used in Sand teams?

And Cacturne is, as you said on your own, still is ohkoed from Swampy so my point still stands, sand teams have trouble taking Swampert's attacks.

Finally how Abomasnow fares in OU is irrelevant for UU. He is not OU according to usage as of now (2,730% usage in OU), so what matters is his performance in UU, which as i said i think that has been weakened if we have Sand to check it and with Mamo gone and Zong in the tier.

And lol about Zong being moved to BL. Nothing gets banned because it is used a lot. So if Zong became really popular to check both weathers, it would be ok, because he is not broken.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Hi there. We will not be retesting any previously banned Pokemon. The metagame has not changed substantially enough.

Alakazam was not important enough to sand, and Bronzong does not counter the playstyle sufficiently enough, given its lack of recovery and offensive presence, to merit a retest of big Hippo. The best players in the tier either use sand or run into quite often (little hippo with 30% usage in the 1337 stats) and it's already a very powerful playstyle. Buffing it is inadvisable.

Mamoswine was barely used in Hail, so it leaving isn't particularly relevant. Snow Cloak will still be ridiculous, blizzard spam will still be ridiculous. No.

Any discussion along these lines past this point is therefore unproductive and a waste of everyone's time. Worry about the current centralizing elements. We have enough of them.

Also, to other UU Council members - we should probably have a discussion on Deo-D very soon. I am free all next week in the evening from 6pm onwards (CST time).

 

[alexwolf]

Hi there. We will not be retesting any previously banned Pokemon. The metagame has not changed substantially enough.

Imo the loss of Zam and Mamo, the addition of Zong and Swampy, and the addition of a real sand summoner so that sand teams can successfully rival Hail teams (Hail was banned when Hippo was not around) are big enough, to at least warrant a second thought on the matter.

Alakazam was not important enough to sand, and Bronzong does not counter the playstyle sufficiently enough, given its lack of recovery and offensive presence, to merit a retest of big Hippo. The best players in the tier either use sand or run into quite often (little hippo with 30% usage in the 1337 stats) and it's already a very powerful playstyle. Buffing it is inadvisable.

It is already a very powerful playstyle WITHOUT Hail teams present.
And as i said before offensive presence is not always necessary as Zong can outstall Stoutland with entry hazards alone, alowing many priority users to pick him off.

Mamoswine was barely used in Hail, so it leaving isn't particularly relevant. Snow Cloak will still be ridiculous, blizzard spam will still be ridiculous. No.

Mamo was the best way that Hail teams had to get around bulky waters and Snorlax, so i think that his presence will be really felt. Also one miss against Mamo could cost you a poke, so this is another problem we don't have to worry.
Blizzard spam could still be overwhelming but we can't be sure. With Sand and Zong teams in the mix, Blizzspamers will have a tough time breaking through teams. For example Zong is a very good Hail check for Sand teams to have. Bring him in against any Blizzspamer, and the next turn bring Hippo in as Zong forces every Blizzspamer that i can think of.

Any discussion along these lines past this point is therefore unproductive and a waste of everyone's time. Worry about the current centralizing elements. We have enough of them.

I don't think it is unproductive at all. Of 'course if we were to restest them, we would first wait for the verdict on Deoxys-D, but after he is gone (which i think he will), the meta will be prety staple imo, and we could attempt do some retesting. Don't be so close minded. It's not like i am mindlessly spamming and flooding the thread. Once i hear the opinion of the people the discussion about this matter is going to end, if the senate doesn't think it is worth it.

Of 'course i could be wrong and Hippo/ Hail could still be broken, but i don't think that giving them a second chance in UU is so far fetched.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Again, the only problem with retesting Sand and Hail is that this will cause Bronzong to overcentralize the UU metagame - he will be a hard counter to Hail and Sand, as well as someone who ends up being used in Sand teams in order to get an edge on other Sand teams.

Swampert will likely simply have to watch out for Snover, giving it another counter/check.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Hail was banned when Hippo was not around

Your knowledge of the tier's history is poor. Big Hippo was dominant when Abomasnow was still in the tier. When Big Hippo was banned, Hail became dominant, and had to be banned. If we dropped both down again, we'd essentially be replaying the post-Drought / Staraptor metagame...with very similar results.

It is already a very powerful playstyle WITHOUT Hail teams present.

I'm not sure what point this is supposed to support.

And as i said before offensive presence is not always necessary as Zong can outstall Stoutland with entry hazards alone, alowing many priority users to pick him off.

Why do you keep bringing up Stoutland? I said "bronzong does not adequately counter the playstyle", not "bronzong does not adequately counter stoutland". Sand was deemed to be an overpowering playstyle with big hippo in the tier for reasons beyond stoutland - if stoutland was what made sand broken, we would have banned that, not big hippo. Stoutland is important, yes, but sand teams are already built around removing its counters - like Rhyperior, Empoleon, Escalavier, etc. The existence of one more steel type isn't particularly helpful. And it's certainly pertinent that, even with Bronzong's existence, little hippo is 3rd in usage right now (next to Deo-D). So, you're talking about taking a playstyle that is already extremely powerful in the higher stages of the ladder...and making it substantially better.

Mamo was the best way that Hail teams had to get around bulky waters and Snorlax, so i think that his presence will be really felt. Also one miss against Mamo could cost you a poke, so this is another problem we don't have to worry.

Hail teams didn't have to use Mamo to get past bulky waters. They just used something called "Abomasnow". It probably worked better than switching in Mamo too, since it didn't die to a Scald.
Hail teams did not consist entirely of ice types. There were ways for the playstyle to pressure its common counters (Snorlax, Hariyama, Umbreon). None of these ways had to involve Mamoswine. It was a useful part of the playstyle but, as usage statistics from the time would show you, not an indispensable part of it.

I don't think it is unproductive at all.

It is. Every member of the Senate has played the metagame with the Pokemon you want to drop down. And those Pokemon were banned for a reason. The existence of Bronzong and the ascension of Pokemon that were only tangentially useful to either playstyle is not enough to override that reason. You might as well say "Unban staraptor because bronzong exists".

Of 'course i could be wrong and Hippo/ Hail could still be broken, but i don't think that giving them a second chance in UU is so far fetched.

It's absolutely far-fetched when we have so many better things to do. If usage trends keep up, Chansey and Scrafty might drop down, not to mention that Kingdra and Roserade deserve our attention as well. I'm not willing to entertain the notion of making the metagame less balanced in the interest of strengthening a playstyle that is already strong and reintroducing a playstyle that is mindless and scores wins based on luck.

 

[Psychotic]

I can't wait to see what happens if Scrafty does in fact become UU. I feel like it will open up a whole new door for creativity, which hasn't been seen in this stale metagame for a long, long time. Almost all of the cut-and-dry UU teams that I see on the ladder these days would be extremely Scrafty weak (my team included), and I feel like its going to have a lot bigger impact then either Swampy or Zong dropping down. I forsee a huge spike in Hera and Escavalier usage, because they are probably the best Scrafty counters out there.

 

[Machi]

I can't wait to see what happens if Scrafty does in fact become UU. I feel like it will open up a whole new door for creativity, which hasn't been seen in this stale metagame for a long, long time. Almost all of the cut-and-dry UU teams that I see on the ladder these days would be extremely Scrafty weak (my team included), and I feel like its going to have a lot bigger impact then either Swampy or Zong dropping down. I forsee a huge spike in Hera usage, because he is probably the best Scrafty counter out there.

This I agree with he doesn't have very many counters and the checks can be very shaky (especially because the Scrafty sets require such difference that you won't easily guess until the first boost). Many of the walls aren't going to like dealing with Scrafty because they are either fighting or dark weak. Which is why I definitely see that this will be shaking up UU - but not necessarily in favor or retesting the weather inducers though.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Scrafty could definitely become a Suspect if it drops in my opinion. The only thing that definitely kills it is Heracross. A perfectly healthy Escavalier can deal with it as well, but if it grabs a Moxie boost it can turn into a nuke. Hi Jump Kick will devastate most things coming off of 419 Attack (at +1), and it becomes very fast with 354 Speed. I could see it going BL because its bulk lets it grab boosts well.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Scrafty is instant BL if it drops at all. I've been trying to prevent it from dropping so Kingdra and Roserade can get some attention. Both of them are lethal threats that need to be addressed thoroughly.

We don't want to put Snover and Hippowdon back in UU when the UU metagame is still unstable. A lot of Gen IV OUs muck the waters of UU, and cause it to be tainted.

 

[toy Soldier]

I think we can retest Snover IF sand veil and snow cloak are banned. Blizzspam is easily handeled between bulky waters, steels, Snorlax and bulky fighters like Scrafty (if it drops down). Also, hail has to use a shitty mon. Snover can't get past waters like Abomasnow can. If snow cloak is banned you can actually hit blizzspammers because of their common weaknesses and frailness.

Hippowdon doesn't need to be retested because, like flareblitz already said, sand is already a top tier threat and we don't need it to be buffed.

 

[alexwolf]

Your knowledge of the tier's history is poor. Big Hippo was dominant when Abomasnow was still in the tier. When Big Hippo was banned, Hail became dominant, and had to be banned. If we dropped both down again, we'd essentially be replaying the post-Drought / Staraptor metagame...with very similar results.

I agree with all this, but what is the relevance between them and my sayings? I said that Hail was banned when Hippo wasn't around and this is true isn't it? Which means that WITH Hippo in the UU meta, Hail was kept in check right? So what i am trying to say is that many things have changed from the last time. When Hail got banned, Hippo wasn't around, so Hail had zero weather competition, Mamo was in UU, and Zong wasn't.

I'm not sure what point this is supposed to support.

It is supposed to mean that with Hail present the power of Sand teams will be nerfed. And pls don't say ''Hail was around when Hippo got banned'' because this is not the only reason i presented for Hippo's retest.

Why do you keep bringing up Stoutland? I said "bronzong does not adequately counter the playstyle", not "bronzong does not adequately counter stoutland". Sand was deemed to be an overpowering playstyle with big hippo in the tier for reasons beyond stoutland - if stoutland was what made sand broken, we would have banned that, not big hippo. Stoutland is important, yes, but sand teams are already built around removing its counters - like Rhyperior, Empoleon, Escalavier, etc. The existence of one more steel type isn't particularly helpful. And it's certainly pertinent that, even with Bronzong's existence, little hippo is 3rd in usage right now (next to Deo-D). So, you're talking about taking a playstyle that is already extremely powerful in the higher stages of the ladder...and making it substantially better.

Of 'course Zong does not counter Sand adequately because he is one poke VS A TEAM. Are we really having the stupid discussion of: ''X poke counters Z playstyle'', answer:''no it doesn't because playstyle Z can get past through X pokes with many ways''? If Sand was checked or countered by a SINGLE poke it would be in the depths of lower tiers not dominant in UU. Of 'course Sand teams will have ways to get around their most dominant checks/counters, but does this mean that they are easy to face? Most of the times, hell no. Most successful teams have ways to get around their counters, or else they wouldn't be successful.
And i am talking about Stoutland because his combo with Hippo was what got Hippo banned iirc from the senate's paragraphs. And Zong handles that combo pretty damn well if you ask me.
You say that the addition of Zong won't change anything. And i cannot help but ask myself, how do you know? Yeah Hippopotas is still pretty high on the ladder, but why are you taking each reason i presented isolated from the others? Will Zong's addition be enough to keep Hippo from being broken? No. Will Zong's addition, and Swampy's addition and Hail's addition, and Zam's absence be able to prevent Hippo from being broken? Maybe...

Hail teams didn't have to use Mamo to get past bulky waters. They just used something called "Abomasnow". It probably worked better than switching in Mamo too, since it didn't die to a Scald.
Hail teams did not consist entirely of ice types. There were ways for the playstyle to pressure its common counters (Snorlax, Hariyama, Umbreon). None of these ways had to involve Mamoswine. It was a useful part of the playstyle but, as usage statistics from the time would show you, not an indispensable part of it.

Yeah of 'course they don't but having him really takes the pressure off Aboma, and Mamo also beats several Hail checks/counters that the frost tree cannot. Mamoswine massacres Registeel, Empoleon and Snorlax, which Abomasnow cannot do so easy.
You can go on and say how easy those poke are for Hail teams to wear down but 3 more checks are better than 3 less check right? Also it is nice to have a poke with priority coming from a 130 stat in comparison to Aboma's 92, that doesn't lose 25% of it's health upon switching in from SR, and has a real speed stat. You cannot deny Mamo's effectiveness in offensive Hail teams, and if you still do, go and ask some of the best offensive Hail players, such as Whitequeen. Mamo was a huge offensive asset for Hail teams, and i think that his absence will be really felt.

It is. Every member of the Senate has played the metagame with the Pokemon you want to drop down. And those Pokemon were banned for a reason. The existence of Bronzong and the ascension of Pokemon that were only tangentially useful to either playstyle is not enough to override that reason. You might as well say "Unban staraptor because bronzong exists".

First of all it would be nice if you could keep the manners, so that we could have a nice conversation. I respect your opinion but you should do the same, as long as i support my reasoning and stay polite. Stop talking about the reasons i mentioned isolated from one another and start addressing them as a whole.
Hail was never tested and found to be broken in a metagame with Hippo and Zong, and without Mamo. Hippo was never tested in a metagame with Hail teams, Zong and Pert present and without Zam. (all together)
Also your example of Staraptor is unsuccessful , because i have mentioned more than 1 reasons as to why those pokes should get a retest, which are far from just one check added in case of Staraptor.
I honestly cannot see why you are being so close minded. If you disagree with me fine, but at least try to make an actual conversation with me instead of dismissing everything just because those pokes were broken in the past. In the end of the day the worst that could happen to you is lose 10 more minutes of your life... Is this little time so precious to you?

It's absolutely far-fetched when we have so many better things to do. If usage trends keep up, Chansey and Scrafty might drop down, not to mention that Kingdra and Roserade deserve our attention as well. I'm not willing to entertain the notion of making the metagame less balanced in the interest of strengthening a playstyle that is already strong and reintroducing a playstyle that is mindless and scores wins based on luck.

This is your opinion. After the whole Deoxys-D point is solved i think that the meta will be pretty staple. And i prefer talking about pokes that could get into UU if we unbanned them because they are BL, than to talk about pokes that could come to UU from OU. Because in the first case we have a say on the matter and can actually influence it, while the second case is pure speculation.
Speculation is nice, but i think that retesting (or at least discussing) potential UU pokes, and by potential i mean those that are possible to come to UU by OUR actions, not from the actions of OU players, is more productive.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I think we can retest Snover IF sand veil and snow cloak are banned. Blizzspam is easily handeled between bulky waters, steels, Snorlax and bulky fighters like Scrafty (if it drops down). Also, hail has to use a shitty mon. Snover can't get past waters like Abomasnow can. If snow cloak is banned you can actually hit blizzspammers because of their common weaknesses and frailness.

Hippowdon doesn't need to be retested because, like flareblitz already said, sand is already a top tier threat and we don't need it to be buffed.

Snow Cloak is on ONE UU Pokemon and two Pokemon total. Snow Cloak was not the primary reason Hail was banned and I guarantee you Hail is 99% as good without Snow Cloak. BlizzSpam is not easily handled between Waters and Steels because of the auxiliary Pokemon that are commonly seen on Hail teams.

Snow Cloak is one evasion boost on one Pokemon. People always scapegoat it to make it seem like the broken force that got Hail banned. Snow Cloak is not broken; it's not even that good. Hail was broken because of Blizzard spamming in conjunction with Spikes and the residual damage involved with playing against Hail.

The only legitimate argument I've seen regarding Snover being retested is that Bronzong is the ultimate BlizzSpam counter. However, it can't switch in that many times, has zero recovery, and will be worn down eventually.

 

[/B/utterfree]

1. I can concur with retesting Snover in hail. Bronzong counters it and there's plenty of Steel-types who can also attest to checking it. It's also NFE, so it doesn't exactly warrant BL on its own. As for unbanning Hippowdon... I'm not too certain that that's a good idea. It's a good 'mon on its own, and Sand isn't the end all be all of its banning.

People really need to stop making the arguments that Snow Cloak/Sand Veil are good abilities. They're okay abilities, but if there's a better ability (i.e. Thick Fat) then use that instead.

2. So Deoxys-D is Suspect; that's good. I doubt it will get into OU because I have not seen that many teams use it.

3. Kingdra has been proven to be non-Suspect due to not damaging things enough.

4. Roserade is very threatening, and is probably more lethal with Deoxys-D gone. Do we have a final verdict on Rosie at this time?

5. Okay, how about Bisharp? It's starting to worry me some. The only thing I can find that straight-up counters it on the switch is Cobalion, and that's because of Justified and x4 resist to Dark. Other things get wrecked in the face by +2 Sucker Punches all day. I've swept entire teams with Bisharp because it is extremely powerful, and I only get scared of Cobalion and Heracross. Even then, I generally have something that can come in on those two Pokes and kill them.

 

[Godsend]

I am honestly really liking this metagame. With the right team building, everything can be successful. I've enjoyed using RU's/NU's and still doing decently well on the ladder. There are common threats, but no real "cookie cutter" teams like in the big Hippo meta. That being said, I am still excited about Scrafty dropping and shaking things up. In theory, he could be broken, but many also theorized that both Chand and Darm would be. How did they turn out? Top tier threats with few labelling them as broken. My favorite Pokemon to use recently are Aggron and Drifblim (Stellar's set), both ripping holes in the ladder.

 

[/B/utterfree]

The thing with Scrafty is that it is absurdly bulky. Status does not affect it much due to Shed Skin. It comes with one of the best STAB combinations in the game; it may not be BoltBeam, but it will do. Defensive sets are simply too powerful for most UU mons to legitimately handle. I've seen people try to use UU mons in Standard OU; said UU mons would get massacred easily by BulkUp Scrafty, or just plain set up on.

Even in OU Scrafty provides a tough match-up unless you are facing against a Fighting-type or Tornadus. My Dark Horse team has met its end to Moxie Scrafy plenty of times such that I can make a legitimate case for it being a by-and-large threat in OU, such that dropping it down to UU would be outright stupid.

To end this: Scrafty would be broken in UU. Both its defensive and offensive sets would essentially clobber everything in the UU metagame, and allowing it to thrive in said metagame is simply not possible. There are plenty of other fish to fry in UU; Scrafty would just take away from those other fish to be netted, so to speak.

 

[prem]

honestly this scrafty being broken talk is absurd. dont just auto assume suspects on theorymon. scrafty honestly isnt even that good in UU from what i can think of. first of all one of the only reasons scrafty is good in ou is the fact that there are so many more things that are much more important than scrafty, that most teams are just unprepared for it. you can however, bet your ass that people will be sufficently prepared for scrafty if its really common, and thus there will be a lot more checks and counters on it

Bulk Up Scrafty just wouldnt be that good in UU, where everything is offensive or theres lots of phasing. roar blastoise or dragon tail milotic would easily be able to take a weak as shit +1 drain punch roar it out and make it run through the loads of hazards in UU. sure its bulk is nearly as much as bronzong, but without reliable recovery (drain punch isnt exactly reliable especially off an attack stat of 90) and worse typing, its not going to be that useful. Heracross, Escavilier, crobat, swellow, acrbatics sceptile, gligar, and sableye can all easily come in and defeat it or make scrafty horribly useless.

offensively it has multiple issues. one is running moxie or shed skin. moxie is cool i guess but leaves you open to status or lack of life orb, and a +1 base 90 attack without life orb is really bad. shed skin on the other hand leads it to be walled even easier because after a kill on something weakened, its still weak as shit. another issue is the fact that it has really low base power attacks. cobalion isnt that weak because +2 close combat is strong, but scrafty is definately going to have to run Drain Punch in UU because unlike OU, every team HAS a ghost on it. Hi Jump Kick is too much of a liability to be used in this meta, and if it really is popular just put protect on random mons and you are practically set. Drain Punch is also incredibly weak. it gains like 0 OHKOs on anything and lets it be checked way too easily. pokemon such as Darmanitan, Cobalion, Zapdos, Blastoise, Milotic, Kingdra, Heracross, Escavilier, QUAGSIRE, shaymin, crobat, swellow, and a lot of other pokemon can beat +1 Drain Punch scraggy because its just that weak.

 

[spuds4ever]

Agreeing with what prem said on scrafty. 90 base attack isn't going to be doing anything in a metagame with attacking stats as high as OU, heracross, Roserade, Chandelure, Darmanitan, Rhyperior, the list goes on. In fact, UU is an even harder hitting enviroment than OU in some respects, and scrafty having a weakness to a solid and common offensive type is really not good.


As for the bans, I'm fine with retesting snover so long as we don't have to go through another round of frosslass+snow cloak crap as that was undoubtably the most annoying prospect of hail. Keep snow cloak out.

Deo-d suspect is fine by me and expected, roserade is still very good, but I don't know about a ban at this point.

And bisharp is far from broken. Pretty much anything with a steel resist and substitute mocks it as well as cobalion and hitmontop completely countering it.

 

[Godsend]

Agreeing with what prem said on scrafty. 90 base attack isn't going to be doing anything in a metagame with attacking stats as high as OU, heracross, Roserade, Chandelure, Darmanitan, Rhyperior, the list goes on. In fact, UU is an even harder hitting enviroment than OU in some respects, and scrafty having a weakness to a solid and common offensive type is really not good.


As for the bans, I'm fine with retesting snover so long as we don't have to go through another round of frosslass+snow cloak crap as that was undoubtably the most annoying prospect of hail. Keep snow cloak out.

Deo-d suspect is fine by me and expected, roserade is still very good, but I don't know about a ban at this point.

And bisharp is far from broken. Pretty much anything with a steel resist and substitute mocks it as well as cobalion and hitmontop completely countering it.

As for Scrafty, the difference between it and other top threats in the metagame is it's bulk. It is capable of getting a lot of lots of boosts when combined with Shed Skin or Moxie. Also, people keep saying it only has "90 base attack" but you seem to forget that Kingdra"only" has 95. Is 11 attack really that big of a difference? I'm not saying it'll be broken, it's just something to consider.

I'm glad we aren't going to retest Hail, because there was a lot broken with it, not just Snow Cloak.