Ludicolo Discussion

[erisia]

Ludicolo

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Abilities: Swift Swim / Rain Dish / Own Tempo
Base Stats: 80 | 70 | 70 | 90 | 100 | 70

Ludicolo is another of the previously RU pokemon to drop down to the NU tier this month, and as any who used it before Aldaron's Proposal can attest, it's an extremely potent sweeper, infamous for breaking through teams that fail to outspeed the Swift Swim set or hit it with priority. This role has not changed in its transition to NU, and it remains one of the sharpest swords in a Rain Dance team's arsenal, providing Grass-type coverage to ensure that its sweepers are not stopped by opposing Water-types. Between Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Giga Drain, and Focus Blast, its neutral coverage is, well, ludicrous, and with a Life Orb and a Modest nature it's not short of power either. If you want, you can even go mixed, with access to Waterfall, Seed Bomb, Ice Punch, Drain Punch and Swords Dance making at a surprising physical threat. However, Ludicolo also has plenty of defensive merit within the tier as one of the only viable bulky Water-types, as an excellent SubSeeder, and as a defensive response to the Rain teams it's frequently seen on.

As the tier settles, will Ludicolo maintain its presence as the defining offensive force of Rain Dance teams, or will it become a more defensive staple? Or will it just continue to dance around as a novelty, not taken seriously by players until they get swept by the dancing pineapple? Ay carumba!

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Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Nature: Modest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

The standard Ludicolo set is probably the deadliest; the self-sustaining Rain Dance sweeper. When using Swift Swim, Ludicolo outspeeds almost the entire tier, including speed demons such as Choice Scarf Haunter that would otherwise make good checks. Meanwhile, its Hydro Pump gains a second STAB boost and the power to break through even the bulkiest of walls with repeated hits. Meanwhile, Giga Drain gives Ludicolo a way to heal off residual damage from various Sucker Punches and Life Orb recoil, while still dealing respectable damage. Finally, Ice Beam destroys Grass-types and Altaria, and completes Ludicolo's trifecta of coverage. The scary thing is, this set doesn't even need to team support to potentially sweep; it has enough bulk and resistances to switch into battle constantly and sweep under Rain Dance all on its own.

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Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Seed Bomb
- Ice Punch / Zen Headbutt / Drain Punch

While this set requires Rain Dance support from its teammates to be effective, its surprise value can completely overwhelm opponents who respond to it with specially-defensive checks. With Swift Swim activated and a Swords Dance boost under its belt, and physically defensive walls such as Quagsire and Tangela being more or less helpless to stop it, it presents a unique threat that can be difficult for opponents to respond too. It retains the excellent neutral coverage of the specially-offensive set, and also has interesting options such as Zen Headbutt and Drain Punch to abuse, for hitting specific targets. It can even use Nature Power if you fancy! What this set lacks in immediate power, it makes up for in initial disruptive ability.

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Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Nature: Modest
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 152 SpA / 104 SpD
- Scald / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Toxic
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis / Leech Seed

Credit to Zebraiken

Ludicolo's defensive typing cannot be overlooked; a 4x resistance to Water, neutrality to Ice-, Grass-, and Electric-type attacks, and lack of common weaknesses make it a great defensive response to opposing Water-type sweepers such as Gorebyss, and a good defensive bulwark in general. Like all bulky Water-types, it has access to Scald and can thus potentially neuter physical attacks for the rest of the match. Unlike most of its competition, however, it has reliable recovery options in Synthesis, Leech Seed and Giga Drain, as well as potentially Rain Dish, giving it more longevity and letting it maintain its defensive presence for longer. Speed EVs can be used to outspeed standard Samurott, to hit it with Giga Drain before it can strike back with Megahorn, but this detracts significantly from Ludicolo's bulk. Rain Dish is used over Swift Swim to counteract Life Orb recoil when facing Rain Dance teams, and to give Ludicolo a better chance of surviving their powerful assaults.

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Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Nature: Calm
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Toxic / Scald
- Ice Beam

Ludicolo also has a unique niche amongst Leech Seed users, with neutrality to Ice- and Fire-type attacks and Ice Beam to hit opposing Grass-type pokemon, alongside impressive numerical bulk. It can switch directly into a number of threats in the tier, forcing them out with its natural offensive presence and setting up a Substitute as they switch. With Leftovers and Leech Seed recovery, and Ludicolo's lack of common weaknesses, it can be quite hard to break Ludicolo down if it gets set up, especially as it can beat most checks to other Leech Seeders with Ice Beam. It also has the option to use Scald over Toxic, letting it hit Steel-type pokemon and giving it unique functionality within the tier. While this set is not as common as the others, its bulk is not to be underestimated.

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Other options include Haze, Rest + Sleep Talk, Teeter Dance + Own Tempo, Fake Out, and an array of other physical attacks to use on an all-out physically offensive set, although these are seldom more useful than the standard moves.

 

[Ewil]

Ludicolo is just amazing !

I've tested the Tank set and he works wonderfully since he have a lot of sets that the opponent can't predict wich you will use. Maybe the only thing that Ludicolo lacks is a priority move, but every man has his weakness :D

The Scald burn is a real good thing and i use more Giga Drain then Synthesis has a recover, i'm seriously thinking to replace it with a status move, or a support move in general, i'll look at his movepool XD

 

[Lady Shinki]

Ludicolo is by far the best of the drop-downs to NU. Honest to god, I've been running around with a simple Sub+3 Attacks set, and not only can it take advantage of anybody else trying to abuse Rain, it can set up Subs on all the Rocks, Waters, Sucker Punches and status moves like Thunder Wave thrown out by specially defensive Regirocks that think they can cripple you for free. Bonus points for running Timid and getting the jump on basically everything that matters, as everything in the base 70/75 area run natures that boost power over speed.

Even with me testing a godawful team that has no real synergy, ludi is worth its weight in gold as both an anti-rain check and something that can easily clean up teams even without weather.

 

[tennisace]

Ludicolo is such a mixed bag for me it isn't funny. I know it's a great Pokemon, and it works really great as glue, but something's... off. Maybe it was the fact that Hydro Pump missed literally all four times in a match I used it, or maybe it's the fact that the LO Tanky set (it's best set) is heavily damaged by +2 Gorebyss Ice Beam (upwards of 70%), or maybe the fact that it's bait for Cryogonal to come in and spin (since on offensive teams the only Ghost that works well is Haunter and even then it's frail), or maybe even the fact that it's overprepared for (everyone and their mother is running something with Megahorn or Sludge Bomb or Poison Jab or Air Slash and ugh). Some games it will do absolutely nothing for me, and then some games it can do something like tank a Double Edge from Marowak under Trick Room and OHKO with Giga Drain, gaining back a ton of health. It's either really clutch for me, or a mediocre pivot.

Also for the people saying it's unpredictable, if I don't see another Rain Abuser on the team, every other time it's the Life Orb Tank set. I haven't seen any SD Ludicolo (even though in theory it shreds its normal checks), and I haven't seen any bulky Ludicolo (since Sawsbuck grabs a boost on Leech Seed and that isn't good). What set (or rather, EVs) are people using for their LO Tank set? The one listed is a bit slow for my taste really, I run enough speed to nab Timid Gorebyss before a boost (though I could afford to drop it down because of my team).

 

[erisia]

The thing is, if you run enough speed to beat timid gorebyss, you might as well be running the rain dance set, as the difference in bulk is negligable. :p

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

Something interesting I noticed was running Rain Dance Ludicolo [the first set] as a standalone sweeper on a sun team. Yeah, it sounds crazy, but Ludicolo is so cool at checking threats to sun, such as opposing Fire-types, as well as weakening bulky tanks such as Lickilicky for a sun sweeper such as Exeggutor to sweep later. I have been using Ludicolo as a surprise lead on my sun team to force switches, set up rain, and weaken the switch-in. 5-turn rain is enough for Ludicolo to soften up the opponent, but it is also manageable in case Ludicolo is KOed a turn or two before rain stops.

 

[jake]

Okay so first question: Why are we running any Speed on the tank Ludicolo at all? I really really really prefer a bulkier variant, as I feel much more comfortable against Gorebyss and our other rain brethren. Likewise, why are we using LO? Does it gain any particular OHKOs (I really doubt that)? Is there really any reason for it? I suppose a faster spread might be viable to catch things off-guard but really I don't see any need for it at all, since Ludicolo is sitting in a place where it either needs a ton of investment to catch something or it just won't outpace stuff, lol. Outspeeding Modest Gorebyss? Why? You don't get 2HKOed with a bulky spread, and you recover nearly all of that health back with Lefties + Giga Drain. Modest LO Gorebyss Ice Beam (aka the strongest shit you'll see) to my spread: 122-144 (33.51 - 39.56%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. The listed spread can actually be 2HKOed if Gorebyss gets really good rolls and SR is up. In rain, Gorebyss always outspeeds anyway, and although Rain Dish does help recover damage, even slight prior damage can lead to a 2HKO which is really disappointing for Ludicolo.

Anyway, this is the set that I've been using, and it's worked wonders imo:

Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Modest nature, Rain Dish
252 HP / 152 SpA / 104 SpD
- Giga Drain
- Scald (Surf, Hydro Pump, whatever you wanna use idgaf, Scald has nice burn rates tho)
- Ice Beam / Toxic
- Synthesis / Leech Seed

Everything is fairly self explanatory, although with the weird spread: I've found it to be a nice balance between power and bulk. Obviously that's up to interpretation but it's the best spread I've used so far and I don't really see a need to change it. Leftovers + Rain Dish is just amazing recovery in the rain and it really makes Ludicolo a standout check to rain teams in general. Giga Drain also does 36.63 - 43.22% to Jynx, so if you're worried about it setting up a Substitute on you then there you go. What I absolutely love is how opposing Modest LO Ludicolo do ~36% with their Giga Drains to you, while you do almost the same amount of damage back and get Rain Dish, Leftovers, and Giga Drain recovery - Ludicolo can really take any rain sweeper one-on-one and beat 'em, save the very few instances of uh Swanna and Pelipper. I was using Ludicolo with Cloud Nine Altaria to handle Charizard and the aforementioned birdies, and they form a pretty good defensive core with one another (just bring a physical wall, too!). Most of Ludicolo's flaws imo come from a) it's susceptible to both Tentacool and Cryogonal and most special walls, so they can come in and do whatever the hell they want like spin away your hazards and b) it's also weak to Toxic Spikes, which is really annoying when you don't carry a Poison-type (although I suppose that's my own fault?). It's also fairly weak when not super effective, so keep that in mind too. In general though, bulky Ludicolo has been a godsend and has been on all my non-weather teams thus far as a great counter to rain.

tl;dr life orb sucks don't use it

 

[NatGeo]

Backing up what C_P said, i've been using Ludicolo as a standalone sweeper in sun and it's actually done surprisingly well. However, i've tried out the LO tank set, and using Leftovers over Life Orb. I just don't feel that a Rain Dance Pokemon gels with a sun team that much; rather I feel Ludicolo counters rain really easily even with Rain Dish, with the only relatively common thing stopping it is maybe Sludge Wave Seismitoad, though Giga Drain will BITE. Regardless, using Leftovers I'm still getting enough power to 2HKO a lot of things that would otherwise threaten my team, especially Rocks and Steels that would otherwise get in the way of a Sawsbuck sweep.

 

[DTC]

If you're using Life Orb on non-Rain Dance Ludicolo, you should really be using Hydro Pump. Life Orb Ludicolo's main niche is the ability to damage stuff pretty hard with Hydro Pump/coverage moves, tank various special hits, and heal back with Synthesis. If you want to use Scald to try and burn stuff, just use Leftovers and a more bulky spread. I disagree on running Speed on it, though, the extra bulk is usually much more useful.

The spread for bulky Ludicolo that Zebraiken provided is pretty good, although I like using more bulk. I'd rather Ludicolo to be able to tank many hits than hit somewhat hard if I'm taking a defensive approach.

Anyways, Ludicolo is probably my favorite of the Pokemon that dropped. It serves as a rain abuser, a rain check, and a great tank. The fact that it can counter one of the biggest threats of the last meta, Gorebyss, is great. The rain abuser set isn't even that strong like I thought it would be. I think it had a positive effect on the meta... what do you guys think?

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I think Ludicolo's coverage is really good, and it makes a really good late game sweeper with its rain dance set IMO. It hits a lot of Pokemon for SE damage and its Surf/Hydro Pump takes down most Scarfers and univested Pokemon. I think it is rather predictible, but still really hard to switch into, as Waters are obliberated by Giga Drain, for example.

 

[erisia]

I'd like to know if people have been trying out the physical sets at all (such as SD Swift Swim, or a mixed attacker with Drain Punch) Seems like they might be effective at luring dealing with Cryogonal and Jynx, giving slow Dragons and other Grass types an easier time later on. I know how DTC was saying Drain Punch always OHKO's Cryogonal with Stealth Rock with just a neutral nature and minimal EVs, that has to be useful somewhere.

 

[Axa]

If you're using physical Ludicolo to handle Jynx, Bullet Seed might be an option to break Sub. It tends to be weaker than Seed Bomb most of the time though.

 

[erisia]

Bullet Seed is also notable for breaking through stuff like Golem's Sturdy, although due to its lackluster coverage it generally isn't as useful as Rock Blast is on Golem / Armaldo.

 

[Testing.]

Hello Smogonites? Smogoners? Smogonions? Not too sure it matters. Long time lurker, 2nd time poster. Moved into the NU tier around about 3 days ago after I noticed the Ludicolo drop because he is quite frankly one of my favorite pokemon to use and it's nice to have him in a tier where he is viable.

But I do think people are giving love to the wrong set, my personal opinion is that Choice Specs is by far the best set he can run. I've been laddering afew days now with this set...

Ludicolo (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast

Now obviously it's a rain team I'm using but I've had maybe 4 or 5 battles where my electrode sets up rain turn one, volt switches out turn 2 and then Ludicolo runs through the entire team with Hydro Pump.

Now obviously I'm not the best NU player nor is my knowledge of the tier that great but outside of Water Absorb Quagsire (which I know is around but I haven't actually faced) I'm not sure anything is going to like switching in. And even then you can normally see him coming from a mile off. And besides Ludi is bulky enough to bring in atleast acouple of times so I don't feel be locked in bothers him too much.

Thoughts? Anyone else tried running Specs?

 

[elchupo]

I ran Choice Specs Ludicolo extensively last gen. There was even an analysis on it before they gutted most of the analyses towards the end of the gen.

It was very good while it lasted. The immediate power afforded by specs meant there were few safe switch ins. Plus, it was in UU where Specs Grass Knot was about the only way you could get around Milotic.

This gen, however, I'm not sure it's his best set. It's hard to argue with doubling your speed and giving the equivalent of a choice specs boost to your main STAB all in one turn. And still having the ability to switch moves.

I have no doubt it would be effective thanks to the surprise factor, but as far as 'Ludi's "best set" goes, I'm afraid it will always be RD IMO.

 

[Raseri]

I definitely wouldn't want to run Specs Ludicolo this gen since LO is really better all around.

I still love the spdef tank set the best; it stops so many things hard and can just recover any damage done to it. Subseed is also solid though; especially since not many people expect it from Ludicolo this gen

 

[marilli]

ok because I missed the discussion etc: I feel that physical ludicolo isn't all that great, to start off. It's not that strong, and surprise and boosting don't really go well together. The bulky set is good, but not at all broken--and even healthy for the metagame for countering a lot of rain sweepers!

I feel that the standard rain dance set is almost too strong, and very few things avoid the 2HKO. (especially with Hydro Pump but the accuracy is offputting so I guess that won't be part of the argument) I've heard some people say stuff like Amoongus counters Ludicolo but it's not really because rain nullifies its recovery etc and it can't take many Ice Beams with that halved recovery etc etc and yeah 7-turn rains with powerful sweeper with good bulk + super speed + good coverage with dual STAB + an ok recovery = x.x

So basically everything that's already been covered...

 

[jake]

I definitely wouldn't want to run Specs Ludicolo this gen since LO is really better all around.

Agreeing with this. Ludicolo still 2HKOes most prominent special walls with LO Hydro Pump in the rain, so unless there are any particular OHKOes you miss without Specs, then I'd really rather just use LO so you aren't stuck with one move (plus you can use Giga Drain and recover off the recoil as well).

LO Hydro Pump vs 252/252+ Lickilicky: 62.97 - 74.29%

 

[AyoGabos]

Hello Smogonites? Smogoners? Smogonions? Not too sure it matters. Long time lurker, 2nd time poster. Moved into the NU tier around about 3 days ago after I noticed the Ludicolo drop because he is quite frankly one of my favorite pokemon to use and it's nice to have him in a tier where he is viable.

But I do think people are giving love to the wrong set, my personal opinion is that Choice Specs is by far the best set he can run. I've been laddering afew days now with this set...

Ludicolo (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast

Now obviously it's a rain team I'm using but I've had maybe 4 or 5 battles where my electrode sets up rain turn one, volt switches out turn 2 and then Ludicolo runs through the entire team with Hydro Pump.

Now obviously I'm not the best NU player nor is my knowledge of the tier that great but outside of Water Absorb Quagsire (which I know is around but I haven't actually faced) I'm not sure anything is going to like switching in. And even then you can normally see him coming from a mile off. And besides Ludi is bulky enough to bring in atleast acouple of times so I don't feel be locked in bothers him too much.

Thoughts? Anyone else tried running Specs?

This is the exact moveset and EV spread I run, except I use LO instead of Specs...it does absolute work on teams once Rain is up. The coverage possibilities are ridiculous with LO instead of Specs, yet the LO residual damage is costly.