Damp Rock Suspect Discussion

[jrrrrrrr]

You guys can argue papermon all you want, but someone explain this: if Damp Rock was really breaking the metagame, WHY DOES NOBODY USE IT?

I'm the only person near the top of the ladder that I've seen use rain. And I don't even have a rain team, I'm just using it on Leftovers Ludicolo because I needed a 4th move. I get that suspect does not mean ban, but seriously nominating this for a ban is just nominating for the sake of some people not liking it. There's no evidence that rain is even the best weather in NU, let alone breaking the metagame.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Usage doesn't determine whether or not something is broken in my opinion. I also don't think it matters what made Damp Rock a suspect at this point, rather, it's more important to discuss every aspect of what it can do to determine if it really is broken or not (who would've thought, right?). Now isn't the time to just say "I don't see it when I play, so it isn't broken," nor is it appropriate to just say "people want this banned just because they hate weather." Arguments like that are just too good for any of our poor, simple-minded, elitist community to handle.

Yes, I understand that this community is ban happy, I mean seriously, look at all the things we've banned from NU. It's a problem, for sure.

Okay, now that my bull shit is done with, I'd like to mention that I also do not think Damp Rock is broken, as my own Rain team had little success on the ladder and against skilled players. I've never swept anybody with a RainSmashed Gorebyss, and at this point I think that strategy is only going to work completely on the people that have no idea what they're doing in NU. The few rain teams I have faced were poorly constructed, so I have no idea how I'd fare against a good rain team made by a smart player. Until that happens to me, I'm not going to think Damp Rock is that much of a problem. I'm gonna stop and get out of this thread before I start ranting like some pissed off old-timer.

EDIT: Trop, I'm sorry that I suck at getting sarcasm through in text.

 

[TROP]

.
Yes, I understand that this community is ban happy, I mean seriously, look at all the things we've banned from NU. It's a problem, for sure.

Unless I am playing on another Smogon NU, we have never banned something directly.

 

[jake]

Usage doesn't determine whether or not something is broken in my opinion. I also don't think it matters what made Damp Rock a suspect at this point, rather, it's more important to discuss every aspect of what it can do to determine if it really is broken or not (who would've thought, right?). Now isn't the time to just say "I don't see it when I play, so it isn't broken," nor is it appropriate to just say "people want this banned just because they hate weather." Arguments like that are just too good for any of our poor, simple-minded, elitist community to handle.

Yes, I understand that this community is ban happy, I mean seriously, look at all the things we've banned from NU. It's a problem, for sure.

Okay, now that my bull shit is done with, I'd like to mention that I also do not think Damp Rock is broken, as my own Rain team had little success on the ladder and against skilled players. I've never swept anybody with a RainSmashed Gorebyss, and at this point I think that strategy is only going to work completely on the people that have no idea what they're doing in NU. The few rain teams I have faced were poorly constructed, so I have no idea how I'd fare against a good rain team made by a smart player. Until that happens to me, I'm not going to think Damp Rock is that much of a problem. I'm gonna stop and get out of this thread before I start ranting like some pissed off old-timer.

EDIT: Trop, I'm sorry that I suck at getting sarcasm through in text.

Sarcastic or not, it's a legitimate question to ask ourselves why we don't see it when we play. If it were really such a great and impossible playstyle to defeat, as the pro-ban players consistently inform me, why is it that such a wonderful playstyle does not see more extensive use than it already does? I'm not arguing that I don't think it's broken because it's not used, but I'm indicating that the fact it isn't used is reason enough for us not to suspect test it at this time. Right now weather is a rarely seen playstyle and when it does pop up, it's hard to handle. Who says that the fact it's hard to handle is because we simply try not to adapt to it, or we haven't yet? I have no idea, and without sun/rain being consistently popular and commonly seen on the ladder to a point that the metagame starts to NEED to find 100% counters to weather, I don't think we'll really have a good enough idea of weather to really be able to say whether it's broken or not.

Right now, yes, I am making the "people want to ban this because they don't like it" argument -- why the fuck are we trying to ban it otherwise? It's an underused strategy that defeats even a lot of good teams when played effectively. Do we understand that the fact it is -underused- might be contributing to its effectiveness? On the other hand, if it's really so easy to win with and impossible to beat then maybe we'll start seeing weather teams pop up more on the ladder and then we will have actual reason to try to consider banning weather.

tl;dr: i don't think it's time to ban weather yet, especially since its usage is so little the metagame doesn't even care to develop counters for it (maybe that's why it can be so successful)
i don't agree with trying to hold votes for either rock at all and despite how "impossible" they may be to defeat in this point in time, i will not stand for us to simply ban something we don't like or want to deal with which is basically what we would be doing right now if we were to ban weather

 

[Pancham]

Lol. I believe Wobbuffet was RU when it was banned from UU. Arguments that it's not used enough to be broken are invalid at this point...

 

[jake]

Lol. I believe Wobbuffet was RU when it was banned from UU. Arguments that it's not used enough to be broken are invalid at this point...

Okay? I just did a search and I couldn't even find July stats, when Wobb was banned. And looking through the UU suspect nomination thread, it seems that Wobbuffet had essentially limited unique teambuilding by eliminating stall almost entirely, preventing the use of choiced Pokemon, and having an almost guaranteed ability to clear the path for powerful sweepers like Raikou. Wobbuffet basically made any playstyle other than high-octane offense suck hard. Since when does rain have the ability to trap counters, prevent choiced Pokemon from being effective whatsoever (see: Choice Scarf users) and discourage the use of certain playstyles because they instantly lose to it? Never.

Don't discount my argument for an entirely unrelated point, and a precedent that doesn't apply here.

 

[nyttyn]

I have been playing around with rain teams lately, and while they can be devastating at times, they have many problems they have to work around. Same as any other style of play.

Shouldn't even be suspect IMO. If weather wrecks your team that badly, Trace Gardevoir is always there as a check to weather that can also be used very effectively outside of weather countering while still fulfilling the weather counter role.

 

[Django]

While playing with and against weather (mostly rain actually, its better than Sun imo) I have found it to be...inconsistent. While a lot of the time my teams completely overwhelmed the opponent in 8 turns, other times the match got dragged out and I lost 4 or 5-0. The entire playstyle is completely dependent (or appeared to be) on team matchups, and the teams I lost to were not "anti-weather" teams, they just had a few Pokemon that are amazing in this metagame that also happen to beat weather teams in general.

With really hard hitters like Emboar and Sawk getting more and more popular, as well as the other suspect Jynx, Rain teams find it very very hard to get thier sweepers in without sacrificing something else. Once in, there are a few legit ways to beat the sweepers. Ludicolo itself comes to mind as perhaps the best check to rain teams, beating both other Ludicolo and Gorebyss, while only fearing Poison Jab / Sludge Wave from Seismitoed. Super fast scarfers like Cinccino and Zebstrika have become more popular, and these further stopped rain teams from completely dominating. Not to mention Gardevoir, who is seeing a lot more usage now that Mesprit is gone, being able to revenge kill every single weather sweeper.

On top of all of this, you have to spend two turns setting up rain. If the opponent manages to get in Belly Drum Linoone against Volbeat / Illumise, then you have just lost. The same could be said with other really dangerous sweepers like Jynx, Magmortar, Sawk etc etc etc. Once they get in on your weather setter, something is going to die.

The other thing I noticed, although this seems to be less common atm, is that rain teams were completely dominated by Toxic Spikes. I ran a stall team for a while, and all I needed to do was get up one layer (maybe two) as they set up rain and that was the game. I ran no specific counters to rain like Ludicolo, but through smart switching and use of Protect I could easily stall it out. Sun doesn't have the same problem because of Victreebell, but yeah.

Basically, I think at this current point Rain fits the meta. Its good, but loses to a lot of common threats in the metagame. Secondly, I don't think it has been fully explored in terms of the amount of options it has both to use and to beat it. Perhaps it will become more dangerous when Jynx goes, or someone will actually build a broken team with it, but right now it seems to fit.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Lol. I believe Wobbuffet was RU when it was banned from UU. Arguments that it's not used enough to be broken are invalid at this point...

I think you missed my point. If Damp Rock is broken, people would be using it all over the place. If they aren't, it's probably for a good reason. Namely, because it's hard to set up and there are no good abusers. Djangoo did a much better explanation of this than I could at the moment so I'll just direct your eyes to the post above mine.

And the "omg Wobbuffet was rare!" argument is ignorant, I'm getting sick of explaining how Wobbuffet dominated tournament usage and completely eliminated entire styles of play on its own even if it wasn't the most popular mon on the ladder.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

I think you missed my point. If Damp Rock is broken, people would be using it all over the place. If they aren't, it's probably for a good reason. Namely, because it's hard to set up and there are no good abusers. Djangoo did a much better explanation of this than I could at the moment so I'll just direct your eyes to the post above mine.

And the "omg Wobbuffet was rare!" argument is ignorant, I'm getting sick of explaining how Wobbuffet dominated tournament usage and completely eliminated entire styles of play on its own even if it wasn't the most popular mon on the ladder.

(I don't mean to argue, but I don't really see the reasoning behind the statement you made about setting up rain and its abusers)

How is Rain hard to set up? You can summon it with your lead just as easily as most people set up Stealth Rock with theirs.

Gorebyss, Ludicolo, Floatzel, Swanna, Jynx (to a degree), and Seismitoad all abuse Rain, and quite well I might add.

EDIT: Here's NU's first actual Rain team if any of you guys want to look at that. How I Wet Your Mother looks decent to me, but definitely doesn't prove Damp Rock to be broken.

 

[Pancham]

[T]he "omg Wobbuffet was rare!" argument is ignorant, I'm getting sick of explaining how Wobbuffet dominated tournament usage and completely eliminated entire styles of play on its own even if it wasn't the most popular mon on the ladder.

The words in red don't matter. At all. Just for the simple fact that tournaments don't necessarily have an important impact on a given tier. It's also "ignorant" for you to call me ignorant because I don't play in tournaments.

However, the words in bold are what I was looking for. A valid argument against me. Wobbuffet did eliminate stall, but that's necessarily a bad thing. A lot of people always complain about stall, and if Wobb was an enabler of that, he should be awarded. This could also cause Wobb to fall under the support characteristic of a broken mon, I understand, but Wobb was fairly easy to play around, if I recall correctly. Sure you couldn't switch a target directly into him, but you could, however, bait Wobb followed by a U-turn to escape his evil clutches, switching into a counter of your own, thus killing the menace.

I think you missed my point. If Damp Rock is broken, people would be using it all over the place. If they aren't, it's probably for a good reason. Namely, because it's hard to set up and there are no good abusers. Djangoo did a much better explanation of this than I could at the moment so I'll just direct your eyes to the post above mine.

The bolded is a same argument that could have been said about Wobbuffet. If Wobbuffet truly was as broken as people claim him to have been, he would have been used so much, he never would have fallen to RU in the first place. It's "probably for good reason" that he did' Flygon easily beat him.

In red, I posted something I could easily refute. Murkrow is amazing ats etting up rain, as it has Prankster, Roost, although mediocre defenses. Another good Rain Dancer is Electrode. Electrode has Taunt, Volt Switch and an amazing base 140 Spe it can utilize to get Rain up. As for abuser, there are Ludicolo, Gorebyss and, to an extenet, of course, Jynx. Jynx is already being argued for ban, and under rain, it's easily even more annoying than it normally is.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

How is Rain hard to set up? You can summon it with your lead just as easily as most people set up Stealth Rock with theirs.

Gorebyss, Ludicolo, Floatzel, Swanna, Jynx (to a degree), and Seismitoad all abuse Rain, and quite well I might add.

My word choice may not have been the best but I stick by my post. I think Rain is hard to set up because:

- It's incredibly predictable thanks to team previews
- It takes a valuable moveslot away from multiple pokemon on your team
- Most rain teams will use an entire pokemon slot or two on an inferior pokemon just for a dedicated rain-setter (like Prankster Volbeat)
- Damp Rock means you have no other item to use, decreasing your longevity or attacking power
- Sun pretty much destroys rain in this metagame. Charizard, Sawsbuck and Victreebel absolutely dominate Ludicolo and Gorebyss.

And just for the record, if you have to include Swanna and Seismitoad as rain abusers, that just shows how much of a stretch this nomination is. You can't even fill a team with legitimately dangerous rain abusers. You might as well include Armalolololdo

Rain isn't even the best weather in NU, this Damp Rock nomination really caught me by surprise

The words in red don't matter. At all. Just for the simple fact that tournaments don't necessarily have an important impact on a given tier. It's also "ignorant" for you to call me ignorant because I don't play in tournaments.

I hope you didn't see my post as a personal insult, you are far from the only person talking about Wobbuffet and you definitely won't be the last. Ignorant wasn't meant to be an insult there, I meant it literally. As in most of the people saying that Wobbuffet was rare weren't around to see people like imperfectluck destroy everyone he faced with Wobbuffet in tournaments.

We're discussing whether or not Damp Rock is breaking the metagame, and my argument is that Damp Rock has no noticeable effect on the metagame so it can't possibly be breaking it. If Damp Rock were banned, NU would not change at all. I hope that makes it more clear.

Murkrow is amazing ats etting up rain, as it has Prankster, Roost, although mediocre defenses.

Murkrow is TERRIBLE at setting up rain. Remember, this is a discussion about Damp Rock. If you use Damp Rock Murkrow you are falling back on 60/42/42 defenses with an SR weakness to boot, thanks to a lack of Eviolite. You get to use Rain Dance once then you die and you're down 6-5. I'll take that trade with you any day of the week.

 

[Pancham]

Murkrow is TERRIBLE at setting up rain. Remember, this is a discussion about Damp Rock. If you use Damp Rock Murkrow you are falling back on 60/42/42 defenses with an SR weakness to boot, thanks to a lack of Eviolite. You get to use Rain Dance once then you die and you're down 6-5. I'll take that trade with you any day of the week.

Yes, I just realized after I posted it that, means Murkow is holding Damp Rock, it wouldn't be able to carry its favored Eviolite. However, Murkrow's not the only mon with Prankster Rain Dance, there's also Volbeat, however, it has a worse typing considering Stealth Rock than Murkrow does. But that's why Cryogonal is there, or Armaldo, however Armaldo cannot have Swift Swim + Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock, which sucks...

 

[jake]

And just for the record, if you have to include Swanna and Seismitoad as rain abusers, that just shows how much of a stretch this nomination is. You can't even fill a team with legitimately dangerous rain abusers. You might as well include Armalolololdo

just wanted to point out that swanna (sorta ehh on seismitoad although it's good sometimes, less good since rotom-s has declined) is actually a really cool rain abuser that is underused. base 98 speed outspeeds a ton of the metagame and while base 87 spa isn't the -best- around, hurricane and surf rip through basically the entire metagame atm and it outruns all of the things people list as checks to rain (jynx, ludicolo, whatever).

 

[No Luck Involved]

Yeah Swanna is very underused in NU, but I actually prefer Seismitoad to Swanna. It has a great typing more than capable of tanking an attack or two and it has a massive special movepool. When combined with its bulk and speed under Rain it is very capable of sweeping, much in the same vein as Ludicolo.

I never posted in this suspect thread because I didn't feel Rain was broken. Sun is better with better abusers and more variety in coverage and support and it isn't broken imo (even though I'd like to see it go but thats just my biased opinion talking). The only thing annoying about Rain is Electrode being so fantastic at starting it. Most rain abusers suffer severe 4mss (Gorebyss anyone?) and have a lot of counters and checks that are common in NU. I'll wait for the day a Rain team sweeps me first before I have anything more to say on this subject.