Never Never (Used) Land: Where Dreams are Made

[CrashinBoomBang]

So with the nearing release of Black and White 2, which is confirmed to bring a number of new Dream World abilities as well as possibly the pinch berries to the table, a question arises: What effect would those factors have on the Neverused metagame? Of course, the metagame still having the same Pokemon is questionable since stuff like Serperior and Amoonguss will most definitely rise up to higher tiers, but it's a little food for thought (and it's nice to have a place to discuss potential changes to the metagame).

I'll group those Pokemon into 2 groups, one being the Main Receivers, which get potentially great boosts in one way or another, and the other one being Honorable Mentions with abilities that can be useful but won't change the Pokemon much, whether the ability isn't all that great to begin with or just doesn't change anything too significant about them.

Main Receivers

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Serperior receives what is arguably the biggest gift from the Dream World in NU: The ability to raise its special attack by 2 stages every time it uses a 140 base power STAB move. We probably won't have this beast for long (if at all), but he'll be a real force.

Serperior (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Hidden Power [Rock]/Hidden Power [Ground]
- Substitute
- Leech Seed

Serperior can make use of its relatively low HP, huge speed and the ability to set up on Pokemon such as Tangela that are immune to Leech Seed by running a SubSeed set effectively. It's pretty simple, but will probably one of the most destructive Pokemon while it is around.

Serperior (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Twister
- Wring Out

Thanks to Leaf Storm raising its special attack every time it's used, Serperior can also make a terrifying revenge killer and late game sweeper, punishing the opponent for sacrificing Pokemon against it. Everything except for Leaf Storm is purely filler, but Serperior quite honestly doesn't need anything else.

Servine can run pretty much the same sets as its Evolution, just with a lot less speed and power. It also has the option to run Eviolite over Leftovers on the SubSeed set. Since Serperior probably won't stay in the tier for long, Servine will have to take its place eventually.

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Amoonguss stays pretty much the same with one major exception: It is no longer reliant on Synthesis for healing, getting the amazing Regenerator ability to restore one third of its health every time it switches out.

Amoonguss (F) @ Leftovers/Shed Shell
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Thanks to Regenerator, Amoonguss can counter Pokemon such as Sawk and Samurott a lot more comfortably. It can also use a lot of other options such as different Hidden Powers, Sludge Bomb, Clear Smog or even Synthesis over Stun Spore and Hidden Power [Rock]; the only moves that should be on every set are Giga Drain and Spore. A Shed Shell would allow Amoonguss to escape from Lampent's Shadow Tag.

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Alomomola is pretty much in the same boat as Amoonguss, "only" getting Regenerator from the Dream World. However, it allows it to wall many physical attackers much more comfortably and actually pass Wishes around its team instead of just keeping itself alive with them.

Alomomola (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Scald/Waterfall/Soak

Another pretty standard set, but made a lot better with the introduction of Regenerator as Alomomola's ability. Wish and Protect allow it to heal off strong blows such as Sawk's, Emboar's and Braviary's boosted STAB attacks while also keeping its team healthy. Toxic and Soak is an interesting combo to Toxic Pokemon such as Amoonguss while Scald has a decent burn rate and Waterfall is its strongest attack.

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In the Dream World, Cinccino no longer has to hope for a high number of hits on its main moves: It gets Skill Link, which basically means it gets 3 base 125 power moves of which one receives STAB, making it a real force to be reckoned with.

Cinccino (M) @ Choice Band/Life Orb
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Tail Slap
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- U-turn

This set is pretty self explanatory, making full use of Cinccinos new and fantastic ability. Skill Link will probably be superior once it is released because Cinccino needs 4 Technician boosted hits from a multi-hit move to equal a move with 5 hits, making it much more consistent. The one problem Cinccino faces with Skill Link is no longer being able to use Wake-Up Slap effectively, meaning Bastiodon and Probopass are much safer switch ins to it.

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Like its big brother Chandelure in OU, Lampent now gets the ability to use Shadow Tag, making opponents unable to switch out. This means that it can potentially be a very effective revenge killer or even set up a Calm Mind sweep.

Lampent (F) @ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Lampent's main trapping set would probably utilize a Choice Item; with a Choice Scarf equipped, Chandelure can take out fast threats such as Charizard and Sawsbuck with easy, assuming it gets in safely. A Modest nature is an option on such sets but misses out on being faster than both of the aforementioned Pokemon. A set utilizing Choice Specs allows it to take on sturdier Pokemon such as Musharna much easier.

Lampent (F) @ Air Balloon/Eviolite
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball/Flame Charge/Acid Armor

This Lampent can easily take advantage of Pokemon such as Sawk or Emboar locked into Fighting/Ground attacks to set up a Calm Mind sweep. Air Balloon gives it an extra immunity to set up on (and surprises people who think Earthquaking with Sawk is safe), but Eviolite is an option to make use of its huge defenses at +6. Flame Charge can boost speed and Shadow Ball gives it a secondary stab move.

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While Sawk previously loved its Sturdy ability to survive one hit (and possibly hit back hard with Reversal), the Dream World opens up another interesting possibility for it: Mold Breaker. That will allow it to be a great anti-lead, preventing Stealth Rocks from all Pokemon except Torterra and the bulkiest of Regirock. It also allows it to finally hit Weezing with a solid Earthquake and struggle less against Haunter.

Sawk (M) @ Choice Band/Life Orb
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Toxic

While Sawk loses its ability to take one hit guaranteed, it makes up for that by breaking through Sturdy of Pokemon such as Golem, Probopass and Bastiodon, OHKO'ing them all. An Adamant nature should be used to have a higher chance of OHKO'ing Regirock with Close Combat, although a Jolly nature can be used to outspeed threats such as Magmortar. Toxic is an option in the last slot to give Musharna a lasting surprise. Other options include Life Orb as an item, and moves such as Low Sweep, Taunt or Reversal over Toxic.

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Even though Swoobats offenses were always mediocre at best, it now has a chance to redeem itself through it's new ability, Simple, which allows it to turn Calm Mind into a Nasty Plot + Amnesia in one turn. Its great speed also sets it apart from other Calm Mind sweepers such as Musharna.

Swoobat (F) @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Trait: Simple
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Psychic/Psyshock/Stored Power
- Air Slash/Roost
- Hidden Power [Ground]/Roost


As mentioned before, Swoobat makes a great Calm Minder with its access to a base speed that outruns dangerous foes such as Cryogonal as well as its great ability and a decent movepool to use it with. Psychic hits really hard after only a single boost, especially with a Life Orb equipped. Psyshock is an option to hit Pokemon with less Defense such as Cryogonal extremely hard. Stored Power synergizes well with Simple, having 100 Base Power after only a single Calm Mind, while still increasing in power massively with each successive Calm Mind, but is almost useless without boosts. Air Slash and Hidden Power Ground make up Swoobats coverage moves. Roost and can be used over either of them for more longevity; Leftovers can be used for the same reason.

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Emboar, known as one of the most fearful Physical attackers of the whole Neverused metagame, gets a huge boost to most of its moves in the form of Reckless through the Dream World, making its attacks ridiculously strong. So strong, in fact, that Adamant Choice Band Emboar's Flare Blitz is even marginally stronger than Jolly Choice Band Victini's V-Create! Wild Charge and Head Smash also receive an important boost which allows Emboar to take on Pokemon such as Alomomola better.

Emboar (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Reckless
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Head Smash
- Wild Charge

This is basically the standard CB Emboar, but a lot more powerful. Thanks to three of its moves getting a 20% power boost, even Pokemon that resist those moves can have trouble tanking them. The rest of the moveset should be rather self explanatory because it's nothing revolutionary at all; it's just a boar with a lot of power.

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Zangoose, while being overshadowed by other Normal types such as Kangaskhan and Ursaring for the most part, turns into a real menace with Toxic Boost, acting like a slightly weaker Ursaring with a lot more speed. A Choice Band set is also an option, but Zangoose would really love the ability to switch into burns for that.

Zangoose (F) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Toxic Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Night Slash
- Close Combat

The idea behind this set is simple: Set up with Swords Dance and let loose some really strong attacks boosted by Toxic Boost. This set can be seen as a midway between Quick Feet Ursaring and Guts Ursaring: It's not as fast as the former and not as strong as the latter, but rather combines both strengths to some degree.

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While Linoone doesn't get a noteworthy ability from the Dream World, the release of Salac Berry combined with Gluttony is something to be aware of. Linoone can now comfortably run a bulky set with an Adamant nature while still outspeeding Haunter after a Salac boost. Since its main attack means speed is useless, Salac Berry will be a great asset, although one might still prefer the healing granted by Sitrus Berry.

Linoone (F) @ Salac Berry
Trait: Gluttony
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Belly Drum
- ExtremeSpeed
- Seed Bomb
- Frustration

This set combines Linoone's power by Extremespeed, reasonable bulk while setting up and the ability to outspeed and OHKO both Haunter and Drifblim (if Shadow Claw is used) after a Belly Drum. The standard Sitrus Berry set would either lose a lot of power by going Jolly or the ability to kill Haunter after setup if going Adamant; this set doesn't face that problem. A speedier EV spread can be used if Scarf Haunter is a concern; be aware that Linoone's chances of surviving most attacks without both HP investment and/or Sitrus Berry are slim, though.

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While being totally useless in standard play, Imposter is gift Ditto could only dream of: being able to revenge kill a huge majority of set-up sweepers such as Linoone and Samurott is incredibly useful for offensive teams that can't afford bring multiple walls to soak up attacks. However, Ditto faces problems with bulky Pokemon such as Calm Mind Musharna that will win one-on-one thanks to a much higher HP stat and ability to switch moves as well as the move Substitute, which prevents it from transforming into the opposing Pokemon.

DANK (Ditto) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Transform

The only set Ditto should ever use. Imposter transforms Ditto as soon as it switches in, while the Choice Scarf allows it to outspeed every Pokemon it transformed into, unless said Pokemon is holding a Choice Scarf of its own. Ditto is best used by waiting until the opponent has set up a Pokemon to then strike them with their own weapons as soon as Ditto comes in; again, watch out for Substitute. A Focus Sash could be used to revenge kill Pokemon and then proceed to change moves, but it only working half the time thanks to the inevitable speed tie is a huge turn-off.

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While Lampent is arguably better against offensive teams that tend to lock their Pokemon into ineffective attacks, Gothitelle has the bulk it needs to set up against all kinds of defensive Pokemon; Shadow Tag prevents them from switching out until Gothitelle is done with its poor victim. Its Choice set lacks Lampent's Overheat, but has more special attack to work with. Gothitelle and Lampent each have their own uses and neither overly outclasses the other one.

Gothitelle (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Psyshock/Psychic
- Hidden Power [Bug]/Energy Ball

This set has an easy time to set up against many defensive Pokemon such as Alomomola, Amoonguss, Tangela without Leech Seed and most defensive Pokemon without a phazing move in general. Since the opposing Pokemon will be unable to switch out Gothitelle can stat up in peace, Rest off the damage if needed and obliterate the remaining team with its great coverage. Psychic can be used over Psyshock for more raw power, while Energy Ball can be used over Hidden Power [Bug] if Quagsire is an issue.

Gothitelle (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 160 HP / 252 SAtk / 96 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Energy Ball
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Gothitelle can also run a Choice Specs set effectively, thanks to its great bulk, usable special attack and good movepool. Unlike Lampent, Gothitelle can make use of its bulk to switch into and remove Pokemon Lampent had problems with. However, it lacks Lampent's natural immunities and the raw power of STAB Overheat. Overall, they can both remove a similar catalog of Pokemon, just with varying degree of effectiveness between the two of them. A faster EV spread, which lets Gothitelle tie with Jolly Emboar at worst, as well as a Choice Scarf set are options too, but generally Gothitelle needs all the power it can get to make up for the lower base power compared to Lampent's Overheat.

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Pinsir, much like Serperior, means that sacrificing useless Pokemon against it can be deadly thanks to its new ability, Moxie, punishing such acts. It can also make use of Salac Berry, its acceptable set and access to Swords Dance to form an effective Flail set.

Pinsir (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- X-Scissor
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

With Moxie, Pinsir can make a fine Choice Bander, getting an attack boost every time it KO's one of the opponents Pokemon, which in turn can quickly turn it into a deadly speed demon. While it is relatively slow for a Choice Scarfer, its huge attack stat means that all of its moves will hit decently hard. X-Scissor is also a great move in a metagame infested by Musharna. While its weakness to Stealth Rocks means it can't switch in too often, it might not need more than one switch-in anyway thanks to the sheer deadliness of Choice Scarf + Moxie.

Pinsir (F) @ Salac Berry
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Substitute/Endure
- Swords Dance
- Flail
- Earthquake

With Salac Berry being available in the Dream World, Pinsir can finally boost its speed which means it can potentially pull off a Flail set.
Pinsir's weakness to Stealth Rock is actually a good thing to have if Substitute is run because it strips off just as much health, which means your chances of getting to 1 HP aren't ruined if you switch in with Rocks up. Mold Breaker is used over Moxie because Flail + Mold Breaker Earthquake has surprisingly good coverage. Priority and faster Scarfers can give this Pinsir a hard time, but it's strong against slower teams.

Honorable Mentions

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Beartic gets Swift Swim through the Dream World, but no physical water attacks. That means its coverage is limited to Ice/Fighting/Ghost. It could be good on a rain team that needs bulky Grass-types eliminated (even though stuff like Gorebyss' and Ludicolo's Ice Beam do that just fine), but it probably won't be particularly great.

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Garbodor would stay exactly the same, except for the fact that it has a nasty surprise in store for the Pokemon that deals the final blow in form of Aftermath. Again, it won't be gamebreaking, but it'll probably be better than Stench and should be the main option unless Garbodor tries to focus on Weak Armor

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Zebstrika could potentially make use of Sap Sipper to use a physical set that breaks through Tangela with Flame Charge; however, Scarf sets would probably appreciate the immunity to Electric attacks from the likes of Rotom more than an immunity to Grass attacks.

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The Simi family gets the formerly starter-exclusive pinch abilities Torrent, Blaze and Overgrow, which could help them on a special sweeping set. They could also run some sort of Nasty Plot SubSalac set similar to Empoleons Agility SubPetaya I guess, but those sets are extremely susceptible to priority. However, it is questionable whether those abilities will make them rise to fame with other special sweepers such as Charizard, Ludicolo and Gorebyss in the tier.

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While Thick Fat Piloswine is partially released, it would really love to use it with moves such as Icicle Spear and Stealth Rocks. While such a set is better protected against Ice and Fire attacks, it should still stay out of the way of those for the most part, especially coming from forces such as Magmortar, Charizard and Emboar. It would do a lot better against Cryogonal, though.

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While Gurdurr certainly likes the comfort of status powering it up, Iron Fist would also become an option through the Dream World. It can be used on Choice Band or SubPunch sets, making it more offensive than the standard Bulk Up Gurdurr. While it really likes the bulk granted by Eviolite, such sets could certainly be viable, but probably won't be standard choices.

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While Defiant would definitely be Braviary's standard choice as far as abilities go, it still won't see much use; apart from the occassional Luxray (which turns from its best counter into a huge help), there aren't many stat-lowering moves around except for stuff like the rare Low Sweep, so Braviary won't change a lot. It's still better than both Keen Eye and Sheer Force, though.

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Liepard might actually see some use through its new ability, Prankster, seeing how its support movepool is very wide. Taunt and Encore to screw over stall, Yawn and Thunder Wave to for sweepers, and Toxic for being a general annoyance. Furthermore, Liepard can also use Prankster assist which allows it to use truly powerful moves such as Spore with +2 priority, assuming its teammates have those. It's questionable how effective such a set would be, but it could become a great annoyer and even a lifesaver at times.

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While Carracosta gets two solid abilities in Sturdy and Solid Rock already, its Dream World ability being Swift Swim allows it to be a dangerous force on rain teams. It doesn't need many EV's to boost its speed to 125, which allows it to have 500 speed after a Shell Smash in the rain, easily outspeeding almost every Pokemon in the tier. While such conditions are not easy to fulfill with the loss of both Sturdy and Solid Rock, and only really work on dedicated rain teams, Carracosta is sure to be a dangerous rain sweeper when the time comes.

I think all the noteworthy Pokemon have been listed, but feel free to suggest more for me to add (as well as moving Pokemon between those two groups).

But, most importantly, Discuss; I can't wait to see the discussion that comes out of this!*

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Credits to shnen for the thread idea
Credits to MMF for the thread title
Credits to DTC for approving of the thread
Credits to Django for getting upset about it
Ninjas are dank as fuck (requested by MMF)

*Copyright protected by DTC but who cares

 

[NatGeo]

I personally am absolutely elated to see zangoose get some love tower the introduction of toxic boost!

Serperior and friends: Three months of hell for NU basically, Serp's gonna be at the top of the stats for a while. The Scarf set looks deadly, especially if Magmortar and friends are leaving the tier. Servine will probably go up a lot in usage too, but only after Serperior leaves. 60 Special Attack doesn't seem like much, but Modest hits 480 Special Attack after a boost, making it a real tank factoring in Leech Seed and Eviolite.

Amoonguss: It's moving up a tier too, but for now it could very well serve as one of the best checks to Serperior in the entire tier because of its quad resistance to Leaf Storm and access to Clear Smog. something like max hp / 220 SpD / rest in Def is what's used in DW and honestly that's probably gonna be its standard set now, physical walling be damned, considering that Regenerator patches it up admirably.

Alomomola: Gonna be slightly more useful, and it won't have to rely on Wish that much anymore, though with the rise of Serperior it's usage isn't going to go up much of anywhere. Perhaps if Serperior moves up a few tiers Alomomola has a chance of becoming more popular. Haven't used this one as much so I can't say much else besides that.

Cinccino: It's gonna be so cute and adorable and :3333333 like srsly rofl. Actually it's gonna be a lot scarier now, considering that it can successfully 2KO Tangela after SR + 1 Layer of Spikes. You can now always beat SubDisable Haunter with Rock Blast which is really cool! The loss of Wake Up Slap and U Turn is kinda sad though, but whatever. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Lampent: HAHAHAHAH this is gonna insane, basically all stall mons without a physical water attack are going to have to run Shed Shell. Tangela can outspeed and use Sleep Powder but only if Lampent a) switches in on it, or b) Lampent is running min Speed (not likely considering that Tangela is a HUGE setup opportunity for SubCM). Shed Shell Tangela anyone? I can see Tangela usage going way down, but Amoonguss can take its place decently.

Sawk: GG Golem pretty much, since there's now the possiblity of several new mons just beating the poop out of Golem, perhaps the usage or SR and other hazards may go down? Just a note but Sawk will be cool now that it can kill Weezing and Haunter easily.

Swoobat: Huge Ditto bait, but what setup sweeper isn't? At least it will have SpDef boosts unlike Serp! Great Pokemon now, Psychic / Flying is actually really good coverage on NU, missing out only on Rock-types (who by the way have to deal with Serperior.... :P) HP Grass is gonna be a decent option over Roost if anything.

 

[MMF]

Im crazy excited for Skill Link Cinccino. I think it definitely has the potential to be one of the best late-game cleaners. I'm gonna add more later as I'm doing stuff!!!

Added Stuff:

I'm so pumped for Regen Amoonguss its not even funny. It'll probably be the best pivot in all of NU and will be extremely useful for offensive and defensive teams alike.

Contrary Serperior will be borked!! But all that being said this will probably be the biggest change coming with the DW mons. Being able to use Leaf Storm and start racking up boosts is absolutely incredible.

Moxie Pinsir is going to be very very strong. As Raseri said its amazingly powerful with a boost and being to get more is just icing on the cake imo. Be on the lookout for this big threat.

 

[Raseri]

Thick Fat Piloswine? I've been waiting for it forever now. And it will still stay NU! It uscks that we'll lose a lot of great mons(Serp / Lampent / Amoonguss / Gothitelle / Ditto). The ones we get to keep will have a great impact.

I had a few DW NU battles against Molk and Pinsir was a huge threat. Moxie + 125 attack is just incredible. X-Scissor could rip through nearly everything.


I guess my personal favourite of the group is Cinccino. Sure Technician is nice, but technician and hitting two tail slaps is useless. I think with Skill Link it will be top tier NU, if it gets to stay. It finally won't be outclassed by other normal types because of consistency. And it's just so cute :)

A few other notable DW abilities:
Iron fist Gurdurr (CB set)
Prankster Liepard (doesnt that ability make everything good)
Defiant Braviary? Since we don't run Rock Slide in NU very often it would be the default ability of choice, bouncing back the occasional intimidate.

You definitely covered all the big ones though, lets cheer for Cinccino!

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

I wasn't sure about Gurdurr because it really loves to switch into status moves, especially from stuff like Misdreavus, and loves the bulk Eviolite provides as well. I guess I'll give it a honorable mention though.

In the same vein, I'm questioning the viability of Liepard, but I guess it's a good stop for stat boosting sweepers with access to moves such as priority Thunder Wave and Yawn (!).

And I have no idea how, but I just forgot Braviary. Adding that as well.

Thanks for the input so far guys.

EDIT: done

 

[watashi]

I really want to use Regenerator Amoonguss in NU although it will probably move up to at least UU. It's already a great counter to a lot of top threats in the tier such as Sawk and Serperior; Regenerator will probably make it too durable for NU :(

 

[TROP]

I think that the following pokemon deserve honorable mention:
Carracosta (Swift Swim)
Klang (Clear Body)
Riolu (Prankster)

Also requesting a mention of pairing Liepard with Amoonguss/Parasect for a gamble at getting priority sleep

 

[Sweet Jesus]

ShadowTag has always seemed so overpowerful to me. While chandelure will probably rise to top usage in uber, lampent is pretty sure to leave NU and install himself in higher tiers as well. Gothitelle will probably also lose it's PU status and rise to UU or OU. What I'm wondering is will gothorita and maybe even litwick find a place in NU ?

Can't wait to see what happens, maybe it's just me that overestimates shadow tag, but the new users can all boost themselves to frightening levels on things they completely wall.

I also agree with TropiOUs about riolu. priority copycat roar/circle throw will be just as powerful in every tier however as priority moves are found in every tier anyway. Wonder what will happen with him.

I also wonder what will be the new move tutors if there are any (probably). (I was thinking of how ridiculous this game would become if gamefreak were freak enough to give shelgon shell smash :p)

My personal favourite is probably Liepard since I'm pretty sure he will stay in NU and I'm such a big fan of priority encore. There wil finally be a user that doesn't fear SR and has some kind of attacking power !

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Litwick is really, REALLY slow so unless your target is something like Amoonguss or something you won't really kill anything, sadly.

Yeah I guess I'll add Carracosta even though I like both Solid Rock and Sturdy better in most cases.

Klang really doesn't deserve a mention imo because it's both rare and there aren't any notable Intimidate users that would drop its stats (and any other stat drops probably won't happen anyway), except for Luxray I guess. I'm up for other opinions on this, but I don't think it really deserves a mention.

Can Riolu do anything except for Prankster Copycat? Because that's really hard to set up and not too hard to stop, so I don't really see much use for it. Of course, I could be wrong, but with Klang I don't really see much use for it, considering the only thing it CAN do with that support movepool is Copycat.

Added Assist mention to Liepard which also includes Spore.

 

[TROP]

Klang really doesn't deserve a mention imo because it's both rare and there aren't any notable Intimidate users that would drop its stats (and any other stat drops probably won't happen anyway), except for Luxray I guess. I'm up for other opinions on this, but I don't think it really deserves a mention.

Considering Braviary is there and all of that applies to it, I don't think this is a legitimate reason. And while Clear Body will rarely be effective, it at least has a chance of actually helping Klang instead of doing nothing like its current abilities.

Braviary beats Luxray already with hazards support

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Return: 147-174 (40.38 - 47.8%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes

if Klang gets denied of a mention because of that then Braviary should be denied of having a mention too.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Litwick is really, REALLY slow so unless your target is something like Amoonguss or something you won't really kill anything, sadly.

Yeah I guess I'll add Carracosta even though I like both Solid Rock and Sturdy better in most cases.

Klang really doesn't deserve a mention imo because it's both rare and there aren't any notable Intimidate users that would drop its stats (and any other stat drops probably won't happen anyway), except for Luxray I guess. I'm up for other opinions on this, but I don't think it really deserves a mention.

Can Riolu do anything except for Prankster Copycat? Because that's really hard to set up and not too hard to stop, so I don't really see much use for it. Of course, I could be wrong, but with Klang I don't really see much use for it, considering the only thing it CAN do with that support movepool is Copycat.

Added Assist mention to Liepard which also includes Spore.

I don't see assist being very useful since it's clearly praying for some attack and might have you restrict your whole team to make sure he doesn't rest, calm mind, curse or lose a precious turn in any other way, especialy with his ridiculous frailty.

Litwick is extremly slow but his bulk is decent. I could see a gimmicky monoattacking set with acid armor, calm mind, rest attempting to sweep from a walled poke (specs pokes with draco, overheat or leafstorm being the easiest) but it's true it's pretty gimmicky. Another gimmick set he could run is simply memento since you can choose your prey and let linoone set up on something like a weak zebstrika. That is if linoone stay's in NU with pinch berries but he was in gen 4.

I could also see Beheeyem slightly rise in usage with incredibly powerful modest, anlayctic, STAB, life orb psychics or psychocks.

 

[jake]

Considering Braviary is there and all of that applies to it, I don't think this is a legitimate reason. And while Clear Body will rarely be effective, it at least has a chance of actually helping Klang instead of doing nothing like its current abilities.

Braviary beats Luxray already with hazards support

Hide

Return: 147-174 (40.38 - 47.8%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes

if Klang gets denied of a mention because of that then Braviary should be denied of having a mention too.

you forgot the -1 attack from intimidate

CB Adamant Braviary -1 Return vs defensive Luxray: 111-132 (30.49 - 36.26%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

braviary's ability is also better than klang's since you're getting a +1 boost, and klang doesn't have very much usage in NU atm anyway whereas braviary does have a significant amount

anyway, i'm really excited about defensive potential! amoong + alom + audino (lol triple a) will be a really cool regen core to play around with, and together they really do check a lot of the threats hanging around. add hazards and missy to that to block almost all spinners (bar sd lum armaldo..?) and you've got a really solid defensive team. there are a lot of tools for offense coming in too, and stuff like contrary serp will almost certainly be used on every team. lampent and gothitelle could be seen to trap a few troublesome pokemon too... i really expect a ton of shit to change as this stuff gets released, and i think most of it will positively affect the meta atm. at least, we'll probably see a bit more diversity than the bulky offensive teams that nu has mostly been seeing lately. i'm very excited!

 

[TROP]

you forgot the -1 attack from intimidate

CB Adamant Braviary -1 Return vs defensive Luxray: 111-132 (30.49 - 36.26%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

That is factoring Intimidate.
That was factoring Intimidate, without it hits Luxray for above 60%. Honko's Calc factors in Intimidate without needing to drop the stat from the attacker if defender is chosen to have that as ability. The one that got the calc wrong was here was you, not me.

 

[jake]

That is factoring Intimidate.
That was factoring Intimidate, without it hits Luxray for above 60%.

i didn't know honko's calc already factored it in. my other point still stands

 

[TROP]

raviary's ability is also better than klang's since you're getting a +1 boost, and klang doesn't have very much usage in NU atm anyway whereas braviary does have a significant amount

Neither do Intimidate users(who are already defeated by Braviary anyway), and secondary drops are from moves that will outright beat Braviary or have no reason to be used against it. So no, your other point doesn't stand at all.

 

[Full2Half]

Alright, you did a great job on this, but i want to pick up on some that i think may have some potential, whether genuinely good, or just gimmicks, as most of them are.

Some That I Noticed:

Analytic Beheeyem

With fairly decent bulk, great special attack, low speed, and access to both nasty plot and recover, analytic beheeyem could be an interesting choice. Analytic essentially giving him a recoil-less life orb boost just for his already low speed. And being able to recover damage helps his cause a bit. I doubt this will make a signifigant change in the metagame, but its just another interesting option here.


Regenerator Duosion

Again nothing TRUELY fantastic, but its an interesting option. I suppose magic guard is still better, but its kind of cool if you're trying to be a hipster.

Motor Drive Emolga

Dispite emolga's suckiness, it DOES get a decent toy by getting motor drive. The extra power to his move electro ball is cool, and the extra speed helps him boost the only stat he doesnt need help in. :p

Scrappy Exploud

For those of you who know my insatiable obsession with weird hoenn pokemon, (mawile, swalot, grumpig, mightyena, tropius...) it should come to no suprise that exploud is on the same level. In fact, exploud is likely my favorate of them. But nonetheless, scrappy would help exploud in the fact that he can choice himself and spam his STAB moves without a second thought of it.

Storm Drain Maractus

Even though maractus already has water absorb, storm drain could be arguably better for an offensive set, as it boosts his already pretty good spA by +1 as well as keeping the water immunity. Chlorphyl still has it's uses, but that's just food for thought.


Water absorb Seismitoed

Even though it loses out on the swift swim, there are better abusers anyway. Water absorb allows him to focus more on tanking hits than outspeeding foes. His good STAB moves also help along with sludge wave. Dispite his being one of the few waters that doesnt have ice beam.

Rattled Sudowoodo

Again, it misses out on a good ability, and rattled on sudo is a gimmick at best, but the ability to boost his speed from taking some weak dark/bug/ghost hit may be helpful. Good luck getting it to survive long though, with the damage from the hit and wood hammer recoil...

Rivalry Unfeasant

Again, a gimmick, but unfeasant has great attack and good speed, so it isnt entirely useless, right? The attack boost from opposate genders also can help. Maybe use it in conjunction with attract to troll the opponant into bringing in a same-gendered poke? Too bad it doesnt have BB...

Ok, i know i went a bit overboard, but i wanted to be thorough, even if the majority of these are just gimmicks.

I also want to add that i am on the same pade with alot of these. You really nailed most of the important ones and yea, good job on this thread!

Also, a whole slew of these guys get unnerve in the dream world, so maybe a few of those will see use due to the impending rise of pinch berrys?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

hydration gorebyss is already released.

 

[Molk]

Alright, you did a great job on this, but i want to pick up on some that i think may have some potential, whether genuinely good, or just gimmicks, as most of them are.

Some That I Noticed:

Justified Absol

People are seeming to underestimate this. The ability to switch into a crunch and get +1 attack is phenominal, especially for something with such high attack and STAB sucker punch. The only downside would be that he couldnt get superpower which would suck, but i think its worth consideration.

Good news! Justified Absol is actually already released, and superpower is legal with justified, so even now its a perfectly viable and effective option for absol, i dont know how many notable pokemon with dark moves absol could switch in on, most mons with these kinds of moves have good coverage and a good attack stat to hit absol with.

 

[Full2Half]

Really? i didnt know that, lol. ill just change that then... Shows how much i usually pay attention to DW releases, lol

 

[jake]

Neither do Intimidate users(who are already defeated by Braviary anyway), and secondary drops are from moves that will outright beat Braviary or have no reason to be used against it. So no, your other point doesn't stand at all.

It's already been established that there are few Intimidate users in NU, and that is why Defiant Braviary is simply a secondary mention in the OP rather than one of the primary ones. My point was that a) Defiant is a better ability than Clear Body in most situations because when you do face an Intimidate user, you'll have a +1 boost instead of +0 and b) Braviary is used more than Klang, and neither of their abilities will dramatically change their usage. Sorry for not spelling that out word-for-word in my previous posts! Yes, I agree that Klang will be better with Clear Body, but right now I don't see it shooting up in usage because of it, while Braviary will likely stay just as good as it is now. This thread is primarily for discussing major changes that will come with these DW abilities; Klang is not a major change and it will not be noted on the OP. Please don't question my judgment further on such a trivial issue, thanks.

 

[NatGeo]

It's not just because of Intimidate though: Braviary already has a lot of utility as it is, and you can revenge kill LO Serp among other things. Klang ont eh other hand is a lot more niche once you think about it. It has its uses, yes, but it doesn't really do as much as Braviary does.

 

[Vintage Books]

Tinted Lens Mothim

HOW DID YOU MISS THIS. Alright, so i admit, the other ones ive noted have mostly been mediocre at best, but once tinted lens is out, this thing could be a huge threat (or at least more than now.) Even though it loses out on butterfree's sleep powder, it has better offenses and air slash, vs some speed. This thing's ability to sweep will be quite better once it has the ability to bypass the several things that resist it's STABs.

oooohhhh I am very exited about this. Mothim is a favorite of mine, and I am exited for it to get this little boost. Hopefully it will become a decent threat.

awkward times, its released already.

 

[breh]

Agreeing that Braviary will not really change very drastically after the release of its ability.

@Full2Half (and vintage books): Tinted Lens Mothim is also released... It hasn't made much of an impact, as you see!

This is probably a bit optimistic, but Monferno could become more viable with Iron Fist. herp derp it gets egg moves with Iron Fist I guess?

Gabite could get a bit better; with Rough Skin, Eviolite, and Substitute, it has a small chance to weaken its counters up a bit before trying to attack them.

Heavy Metal Lairon is neat. With it, Heavy Slam goes up in power (how much, I don't know; it still probably hits for jack shit on the things it's supposed to (Rock-types etc.) lol), which is pleasant. Heavy Slam is a pretty spammable move, too.

Swift Swim Carracosta could be cool; with rain and +2/+2 from Shell Smash, it becomes rather menacing. Although things that resist Water are obvious problems, it seems quite strong.

Rampardos is pretty neat - it gets a more accurate STAB (Rock Slide; still outclassed by Head Smash), ability to OHKO Tangela with SR/Spikes (needs 40 SpA and a LO though), and a few neat little coverage moves (Zen Headbutt, Crunch, etc.). Unfortunately, it loses its ability to OHKO Golem in doing so.

Gutsray sucks now, but could get a little better with the release of a Superpower or even Low Kick tutor.

Finally, on the topic of Serperior, it's going to be in OU. And it's going to get there quickly. I feel that a special exception can be made for it; it's been known since the release of BW that Serperior is OMG LEAF STORM CONTRARY. Servine might have a chance in NU, though. Leaf Storm's shitty PP really starts to show through on Servine, which has bad enough speed that anything with Substitute can make it run out of Leaf Storm (granted, it can use something like Sub/Giga Drain/Leaf Storm/Leech Seed instead of a Hidden Power, but risk being walled by Vileplume).

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Agreeing that Braviary will not really change very drastically after the release of its ability.

@Full2Half (and vintage books): Tinted Lens Mothim is also released... It hasn't made much of an impact, as you see!

This is probably a bit optimistic, but Monferno could become more viable with Iron Fist.

Gabite could get a bit better; with Rough Skin, Eviolite, and Substitute, it has a small chance to weaken its counters up a bit before trying to attack them.

Heavy Metal Lairon is neat. With it, Heavy Slam goes up in power (how much, I don't know; it still probably hits for jack shit on the things it's supposed to (Rock-types etc.) lol), which is pleasant. Heavy Slam is a pretty spammable move, too.

Swift Swim Carracosta could be cool; with rain and +2/+2 from Shell Smash, it becomes rather menacing. Although things that resist Water are obvious problems, it seems quite strong.

Rampardos is pretty neat - it gets a more accurate STAB (Rock Slide; still outclassed by Head Smash), ability to OHKO Tangela with SR/Spikes (needs 40 SpA and a LO though), and a few neat little coverage moves (Zen Headbutt, Crunch, etc.). Unfortunately, it loses its ability to OHKO Golem in doing so.

Gutsray sucks now, but could get a little better with the release of a Superpower or even Low Kick tutor.

Finally, on the topic of Serperior, it's going to be in OU. And it's going to get there quickly. I feel that a special exception can be made for it; it's been known since the release of BW that Serperior is OMG LEAF STORM CONTRARY. Servine might have a chance in NU, though. Leaf Storm's shitty PP really starts to show through on Servine, which has bad enough speed that anything with Substitute can make it run out of Leaf Storm (granted, it can use something like Sub/Giga Drain/Leaf Storm/Leech Seed instead of a Hidden Power, but risk being walled by Vileplume).

Kind of funny how you correct someone about an already released ability and then talk about iron fist monferno which is also released :p.

Not sure if rampardos will like sheer force that much since mold breaker EQ is very useful as well as anti-sturdy as you said.

Good point on servine though, he will probably stay NU though. I think he will be too hard to pull off and will join superpower spinda and live a very contradictive love story in he dephts on NU. For neither his speed, bulk, special attack or coverage are sufficient to help him pull off the set.

 

[Full2Half]

Really? i remember hearing alot of crap about how it's unreleased, but apparently it was wrong. Well, with mothim and absol out of my list, im left with just gimmicks.