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No, we shouldn't do it now. In this unstable metagame, we couldn't tell if something were broken or not since we hardly know anything about the meta. And besides, is it Smogon policy to retest everything the moment we get some new stuff? (I actually don't know. Is it?)
Which is why we allow them all and wait for the metagame to settle before banning anything again. After all, as you observed, we can't tell what would or wouldn't be broken, and the default is to not ban things. It's not exactly difficult, and you've demonstrated no problems with that, while I've explained that your proposal would run the risk of getting things banned unnecessarily - which is against Smogon's policy.
And we didn't get "some" new stuff. We got a fuckload of new stuff.
No, we shouldn't do it now. In this unstable metagame, we couldn't tell if something were broken or not since we hardly know anything about the meta. And besides, is it Smogon policy to retest everything the moment we get some new stuff? (I actually don't know. Is it?)
There's no policy because one thing has ever been unbanned, Latias in Gen 4. If everything isn't unbanned now, we are missing an opportunity to get OU as diverse as possible. Banning is and will always be a last resort. If the metagame has adapted to where these Pokémon are no longer as big threats, bring them back. My opinion.
EDIT: @above poster: Darkrai does nothing for the most part. It doesn't really tear through teams as long as you carry a decent check. Priority and Scarfers absolutely demolish it.
EDIT2: Deoxys-A is so powerful that testing it is futile, and Shaymin-S has Serene Grace Jirachi-style kill everything with SubSeed, Air Slash flinch, and Seed Flare SpD drop. However, Deoxys-N isn't so overtly powerful. Without Superpower, Tyranitar demolishes it, and like Darkrai, anything with a Scarf or priority destroys it.
Wow can't believe so many people are already calling for bans.
These Pokemon got just released and people are only trying them out (so obviously they will be on like every team lol). They also don't seem too good anyway.
It's really annoying to ban Pokemon just because of... I don't even know, dislike?
I also can't believe someone said maybe Skymin should be retested... flinchhax is really broken from so strong Pokemon, Jirachi should go away too. That annoying *************. (little rant)
Soo... I really hope Excadrill will be retested, because I'm sure it would be underwhelming in this meta right now (rain everywhere, and also there are enough Pokemon now that can handle it). It was also never broken in the first place in my opinion.
Hope Garchomp and maybe Thundurus could also return.
Other than that I gotta play more, I really like the new additions. :)
Which is why we allow them all and wait for the metagame to settle before banning anything again. After all, as you observed, we can't tell what would or wouldn't be broken, and the default is to not ban things. It's not exactly difficult, and you've demonstrated no problems with that, while I've explained that your proposal would run the risk of getting things banned unnecessarily - which is against Smogon's policy.
Why do you keep saying the default is unban? It's not like we got a new gen, we got some new Pokemon to add to the current meta. It's not like this is a completely different meta, it's still similar to before. As such, most of the reasons those mons were banned still stand. The only difference is tgat those mons might have 1 or 2 more counters, which isn't justification for an unban. Also, my proposal does not create unnecessary bans, it mearly delays the testing so we know what we're dealing with better.
I don't get why there's this urgency that we've got to just throw everything in now before we even know much about the new stuff we already have!
There's no policy because one thing has ever been unbanned, Latias in Gen 4. If everything isn't unbanned now, we are missing an opportunity to get OU as diverse as possible. Banning is and will always be a last resort. If the metagame has adapted to where these Pokémon are no longer as big threats, bring them back. My opinion.
How are we missing an opportunity to diversify OU by releasing a bunch of probably OP mons? Won't that centralize OU even more?
I think you guys may be misunderstanding me: I'm not saying we shouldnt retest some of these mons. I'm saying we should wait until the metagame stabalizes so 1. We can make a better call on whether something is OP or not, and 2. We know we have a good reason to retest and aren't just throwing in over-centralizing mons willy nilly.
As far as I know, the only new things people are trying to ban are the new Kyurem forms and Soul Dew, and Soul Dew isn't even new. Surely we realize that Pokemon with 700 BST and 170 in an attacking stat don't need testing?
If I missed anything and anyone is calling for banning anything else new, though, then yeah, they're just plain wrong.
Why do you keep saying the default is unban? It's not like we got a new gen, we got some new Pokemon to add to the current meta. It's not like this is a completely different meta, it's still similar to before. As such, most of the reasons those mons were banned still stand. The only difference is tgat those mons might have 1 or 2 more counters, which isn't justification for an unban. Also, my proposal does not create unnecessary bans, it mearly delays the testing so we know what we're dealing with better.
I don't get why there's this urgency that we've got to just throw everything in now before we even know much about the new stuff we already have!
How are we missing an opportunity to diversify OU by releasing a bunch of probably OP mons? Won't that centralize OU even more?
I think you guys may be misunderstanding me: I'm not saying we shouldnt retest some of these mons. I'm saying we should wait until the metagame stabalizes so 1. We can make a better call on whether something is OP or not, and 2. We know we have a good reason to retest and aren't just throwing in over-centralizing mons willy nilly.
And you're not showing why there's a reason not to throw them in now.
One or two changes can radically adjust a metagame. Remember Scizor getting Bullet Punch in Gen 4? Even if the impacts aren't direct, these changes could render any of the questionable bans no longer necessary, and unbanning those could render any hypothetical future bans unnecessary, so it's clearly the way to cut down on bans and get a more diverse metagame, which is the goal.
Seems that rain teams got a boost. I would love to see exdrill, garchomp back in OU for the simple fact of balance. if not everyone going run rain teams and it will be boring.
The reason to not throw them in is because A. They'll overcentralize OU more than it already is, and B. We couldn't make a good call on if they're OP or not.
The reason to not throw them in is because A. They'll overcentralize OU more than it already is, and B. We couldn't make a good call on if they're OP or not.
A) Insufficient relevant evidence to claim that; if it's true, we'll find out only by tossing them into the fray
B) We don't need to make a good call right away, and it would take even longer under your proposal
I had faith in it then because we were testing a bunch of really obvious stuff. Shaymin-S, deoxys-A, and darkrai in particular. This time we'd be testing the more shaky choices.
I had faith in it then because we were testing a bunch of really obvious stuff. Shaymin-S, deoxys-A, and darkrai in particular. This time we'd be testing the more shaky choices.
So there's a problem with testing things that have more of a need to be tested? You're not making any sense.
Testing things all at once is the only way to ensure a fair, neutral environment. Testing them one at a time runs the risk of problems emerging that might not be present with all the reasonable Pokemon available, and so it just risks taking longer to come to a worse result. There's no logic in it.
Honestly, the only new things that should get banned are the new Kyurem Formes. 700 BST is beyond OP. Don't forget about the most powerful Outrages and DM's ever to come into existence.
Anything with a reasonable BST should be re-tested to see how the metagame has changed with the available DW abilities. That includes not some, ALL pokes currently banned with a BST of 600. If it proves that the current bans are still too powerful to not be banned, than just re-ban them then. What's so hard about that? Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither was this metagame. This is a multi-month process to go through.
So there's a problem with testing things that have more of a need to be tested? You're not making any sense.
Testing things all at once is the only way to ensure a fair, neutral environment. Testing them one at a time runs the risk of problems emerging that might not be present with all the reasonable Pokemon available, and so it just risks taking longer to come to a worse result. There's no logic in it.
There is no problem with testing things that are in need of testing. I'm just afraid of multiple suspects interfering with one another. Back when people were scared of Latios, one of the arguments against its banning was that, "It helps keep garchomp in check". Meanwhile, garchomp was just a former uber who was in the same boat as Latios. Aren't the results somewhat skewed when it's suddenly okay for an uber Pokemon to stick around just because another uber Pokemon balances things out? If we dropped down Ho-oh and arceus, Ho-oh would not seem as bad because rock arcues would be a great counter.
Although I do see your point. Testing excadrill and blaziken at the same time allows for a Pokemon who can outspeed +2 blaziken to exist in the same metagame as him. Same goes for the likes of excadrill and deo-S.
Here's a visual detailing why your reasoning is flawed:
DPPt ---NEW GEN--> BW1 ---SAME GEN--> BW2
Just in-case the illustration wasn't clear enough, there were an additional 150+ entirely new Pokémon, many new moves, and some basic mechanics changes (Sleep, for example) between DPPt and BW1.
Between BW1 and BW2? Only a few new formes and newly-released hidden abilities.
A) Insufficient relevant evidence to claim that; if it's true, we'll find out only by tossing them into the fray
B) We don't need to make a good call right away, and it would take even longer under your proposal
A. They're Uber for a reason, so even if they're not OP they'll be very powerful and common mons
B. If we don't need to make the call right away then why do need to test them right away? You have yet to really explain why we have to test everything in right now.
But there's a key difference there: we were switching to a new generation. There were a whole lot more changes then. And besides, did we instantly retest everything when Platinum came out? (I actually don't know)
How is that a "Absolutely ridiculous" idea? with the new addition of Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. Rain has become more strong if not alreadydomanating the meta game to the point everyone is using a rain team. Last time I check the Meta game is all about balance right? we ban things that are not balance. Your argument and insults are invalid
This thread is just embarrassing, unbanning excadrill an garchomp to "balance" out rain is an absolutely ridiculous idea . To the people calling for shaymin-s, darkrai and deoxys-N to be brought back to OU: please stop posting in this thread until your mental health issues are resolved.
New metagame, people need to stop jumping to conclusions and let BW2 develop a little before we start to interfere ( apart from extreme cases like the new kyurem formes and soul dew)
Bans like Garchomp, Thundurus, and Deoxys-S were situational bans made for a metagame that no longer exists. Keeping those bans in place in a metagame where their appropriateness has not been evaluated interferes with it, and that interference is what we should avoid.
There is no problem with testing things that are in need of testing. I'm just afraid of multiple suspects interfering with one another. Back when people were scared of Latios, one of the arguments against its banning was that, "It helps keep garchomp in check". Meanwhile, garchomp was just a former uber who was in the same boat as Latios. Aren't the results somewhat skewed when it's suddenly okay for an uber Pokemon to stick around just because another uber Pokemon balances things out? If we dropped down Ho-oh and arceus, Ho-oh would not seem as bad because rock arcues would be a great counter.
Although I do see your point. Testing excadrill and blaziken at the same time allows for a Pokemon who can outspeed +2 blaziken to exist in the same metagame as him. Same goes for the likes of excadrill and deo-S.
The main thing I have in mind is weather. There's been this three-way tug-of-war between rain, sun, and sand, and the current ban list includes stuff from all three. So it's very possible that if stuff was allowed for multiple weathers at once, it would all balance out together, while it wouldn't in isolation.
The Pokemon with uber-level stats (670+ without a hindering ability) are a bit of a different story because so many of them can't be countered even in their own tier. Furthermore, we can, if desired, define Pokemon with stats that high as inherently uber, if we want OU to be the more diverse metagame without them. Anything other than those Pokemon and Moody should get a chance in OU to see if things work out. Deoxys, Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S, and possibly Darkrai have had their chance and have decisively shown don't really need another one for now, but the others are more questionable, and we should strive to see what works. The ideal situation, of course, is a balanced metagame with no bans beyond the above for maximum possible diversity, and we should strive to give that a chance to see how close we can get.
Here's a visual detailing why your reasoning is flawed:
DPPt ---NEW GEN--> BW1 ---SAME GEN--> BW2
Just in-case the illustration wasn't clear enough, there were an additional 150+ entirely new Pokémon, many new moves, and some basic mechanics changes (Sleep, for example) between DPPt and BW1.
Between BW1 and BW2? Only a few new formes and newly-released hidden abilities.
A few new capabilities for Pokemon can have a big impact on their own. Recall how much changed when Scizor got Bullet Bunch. Breloom with Technician stands to change things just as much, and it's just one of a massive number of changes. Consider how much the metagame changed with each individual ban made earlier in this gen, how much it affected whether or not other things seemed broken. The metagame of today is hugely different from the one of a few weeks ago, and it's foolish to ignore or belittle that difference.
A. They're Uber for a reason, so even if they're not OP they'll be very powerful and common mons
B. If we don't need to make the call right away then why do need to test them right away? You have yet to really explain why we have to test everything in right now.
But there's a key difference there: we were switching to a new generation. There were a whole lot more changes then. And besides, did we instantly retest everything when Platinum came out? (I actually don't know)
Their prevalence is exactly why we need to consider everything together. Who knows what might show up and seem broken with those Pokemon banned, but be perfectly reasonable with the bans undone and unneeded? Right now, there's a good chance that people will try to ban things, and any of those efforts will be a waste we'll need to throw away if we let it happen without considering the full set of potential Pokemon to influence BW2 OU.
Their prevalence is exactly why we need to consider everything together. Who knows what might show up and seem broken with those Pokemon banned, but be perfectly reasonable with the bans undone and unneeded? Right now, there's a good chance that people will try to ban things, and any of those efforts will be a waste we'll need to throw away if we let it happen without considering the full set of potential Pokemon to influence BW2 OU.
We shouldn't be banning or unbanning anything right now! Any efforts to ban/unban anything right now will be a waste since we don't know much about the meta. We don't even know everything we're going to get yet!
Although this doesn't affect OU, Serebii has confirmed that Lugia and Ho-oh have both been found in Dream Radar with their hidden abilites. Ubers better be prepared for Lugia impossible to KO at full health and Ho-oh being able to switch in and tank more.
DW OU is really going to be a lot less played now it seems like. With Keldeo, Techniloom, Amoonguss, and Ditto being released, the only two common Pokemon left in DW OU exclusively are Genesect and Shadow Tag Chandelure (which may be released soon anyway, I have a feeling).
We shouldn't be banning or unbanning anything right now! Any efforts to ban/unban anything right now will be a waste since we don't know much about the meta. We don't even know everything we're going to get yet!
We shouldn't be banning anything because we don't know enough about the meta, which is why we must leave Manaphy, Blaziken, Deoxys-S, Drizzle + Swift Swim, Garchomp, Excadrill, and Thundurus without bans, at least until the metagame settles.
Although this doesn't affect OU, Serebii has confirmed that Lugia and Ho-oh have both been found in Dream Radar with their hidden abilites. Ubers better be prepared for Lugia impossible to KO at full health and Ho-oh being able to switch in and tank more.
DW OU is really going to be a lot less played now it seems like. With Keldeo, Techniloom, Amoonguss, and Ditto being released, the only two common Pokemon left in DW OU exclusively are Genesect and Shadow Tag Chandelure (which may be released soon anyway, I have a feeling).
