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The Effect of BW2 on Neverused

My thoughts:
Absol
Can now run Superpower with any of it's Egg Moves.
Super Luck is a more useful ability than Justified for Absol.
It's not going to be able to run an effective Spite set regardless that it now gets it.
Foul Play may be useful for heavy attackers.
Prediction: Remain in NU

Potential new usable set, maybe:

Absol
Super Luck
Jolly
@Life Orb/King's Rock/Choice Band
Zen Headbutt
Sucker Punch
Super Power
X-Scissor/Rock Slide



Alomomola
Gained Pain Split and Sleep Talk, beyond these I don't see anything exciting/usable. Alomomola is trying to be a cleric/white mage/healer, but it just loses to Lickilicki and Audino which do the job better. I can't think of a possible sleep-talk set, and Regenerator most likely won't move it around.
Prediction: Remain in NU

Altaria
The usable new gains are Hyper Voice, Iron Tail (which has an accuracy of 75% which isn't great), Heat Wave, Heal Bell, Tail Wind, Wonder Room, and Outrage. Cotton Guard could make it a bearable status curer while capable of doing some damage (Outrage/Heat Wave) depending if it goes Physically or Specially. The Flying weakness still means its highly vulnerable to SR, which from my few recent battles on PO makes me wonder why almost no one that I've versed is using a rapid spinner.
Prediction: Either way Altaria struggles so it's here to stay.

Amoongus
Do I need to go over this? There's the thread in OU. It's going bye-bye thanks to it's Ability and capability of semi-dealing with Keldeo although I still think it's going to have a bad time if your opponent is using Keldeo and Volcarona.

Ampharos
The ability Plus means it can discard Choice Specs for Choice Scarf in a heartbeat. There's no reason to ever use a physical attack on Ampharos, so it already limits the usable gains from the move tutor list that it can't otherwise already get to umm Heal Bell?

Then again looking on site I don't see why this set isn't standard:

Ampharos
Static
Modest/Timid
@Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Signal Beam
Thunderbolt
Focus Blast
Power Gem

Edit: Ewil pointed out that I listed both and Plus is a double battle only ability, which I'd use personally as I play doubles, but otherwise modded for his point.

Prediction: Sticking around in NU.

Ariados gains nothing beneficial and is already rare to see in NU seeing as 170 other Pokemon are more popular than it.
Edit: As Anartya pointed out it gets X-Scissor for STAB providing you can outspeed your opponent. (OHKO's Cacturne, I guess?)

Armaldo regains access to Aqua Tail with it's DW ability Swift Swim. Otherwise it still needs to be recognized as good spinner if Cryogonal leaves the tier. Otherwise not much has changed, Low Kick?

Articuno, Snow Cloak may be your saving grace. Gained Signal Beam, otherwise I have no idea what to do with you still, and even under a +20% evasion, the rock weakness is still too much to risk with little in return (Blizzard/Signal Beam/Ancient Power) being your Sp. Offensive moves now. Hurricane may now be usable but still too much to risk even in rain. If we jump back to Gen IV you get Ominous Wind, although if we go back to Gen III and jump into XD you got Ice Beam and Extrasensory. Still no idea what to do with you.

Audino's offensive stats wishing it could do something more with it's move tutor list, Drain Punch? It fills its role as a healer, and then the DW Ability isn't going to be used (Klutz).

Rejected and alone Banette may of gained another possibility. It now gets Skill Swap through Move Tutor, combined with it's Insomnia ability can act as a counter to a Sleep Talk set, although situational.

Beheeyem gains Signal Beam, Zen Headbutt, and then sits there and dies to Sucker Punch even if it gets Signal Beam off on Absol, with an Analytic boost.

Signal Beam vs Max Sp. Def Absol: 67-79% before any items added.
If Absol has no EV's invested in Sp. Def Signal Beam would do 115%-136%.
Against a max Sp. Def Skuntank Signal Beam does a mere 27%-31%.
A Skuntank without any EV's in Sp.Def would take between 48%-57% of it's health.

Braviary, you finally got what you wanted, a reliable recovery in Roost which also is a turn free from your Rock/Ice/Elec weakness, while opening you up to fighting. Most likely you'll go up to RU, because Brave Bird and Roost is going to be hard not to pass up. Also U-turn for switching, and Ghost Claw to hit the few Ghost and Psychic that hang around. Defiant may also be beneficial to you, providing you can get away to force a Sp. Atk drop to raise your own Attack. Sheer Force still isn't giving you much to work with though.

Carracosta, it's unreleased DW Swift Swim may move it into a higher tier, but otherwise I don't see anything new, that isn't already done better by a currently existing moveset allowed by it's movepool.


Cincinno? Over-hyped? Most likely

Cradily gains nothing new.
Edit: As pointed out by Cherub Agent it gains SR with Storm Drain and Giga Drain.

I'll update this further when my head stops spinning.




Edit: First set A-C
Edit: Second set D-D
Edit: Removed Pokemon that were mentioned unnecessary.
 
Cradily DOES get something: the ability to use Stealth Rock in combo with Storm Drain and Giga Drain, which is pretty big. Although I attribute this to the fact that you're probably tired from the post lol.
 
Ampharos
Static/Plus
Modest/Timid
@Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Signal Beam
Thunderbolt
Focus Blast
Power Gem

Static goes with Modest and Scarf. Plus once released would go with Timid and Specs.
Click to expand...

Ampharos should always use "Static" since "Plus" is a Double-Battle Ability Only.

So i've toying around with Cinccino and Swoobat, but they are frail a lot (expecially the latter) and i think that Cinccino should use Wake-Up Slap over U-Turn on every sets except Choice Sets since is walled by a lot of Physical wall that are weak to Fight like the risin Cradilly or the common Rock/steel types.
 
Just wanted to clarify a misconception that have been floating around. It has been touted seemingly everywhere (at least to me!) that Cincinno 2HKOes Tangela and thus cannot be walled in NU. I'm not sure where that came from but it is certainly not true and here is the correct calc:

252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def) : 28.74% - 33.53% (3-4 hits to KO)

Choice Band doesn't do much better of course. So yeah, Cincinno is a powerful and fast all out attacker, but it can't get through Tangela. I would put it in a similar bracket to Swellow - with slightly less power, slightly less speed and no priority but much better coverage, less residual damage and more utility.
 
Well Cinccino can actually break through Tangela, provided it has some hazard support: Tail Slap: 109-129 (32.63 - 38.62%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes.

Not to mention if Tangela has taken previous damage (it is rare to realistically find Tangela at 100%, despite Regenerator), its chances are much more slim. Tangela is a good check to Cinccino, but not a 100% stop in all situations.
 
On the subject of Tangela, this was mentioned before but it can now have Synthesis with Regenerator which pretty much takes it beyond ridiculous. Before, it was already walling nearly everything and one of the best physical walls (if not the outright best) in NU with only Leech Seed for recovery! Now it has an instant 50% healing move. It doesn't fear weak U-turns at all because of Regen and with Synthesis it can pretty much guarantee to always be at 100% health.

Add Synthesis to Giga Drain, HP Ice, Leech Seed/Knock Off/Sleep Powder/Stun Spore etc and it looks much better than before and not so Leech Seed reliant. Too bad Amoonguss gives it a lot of competition but Tangela has the obscene physical bulk to see it hold attention over its new rival.
 
No Luck Involved said:
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def) : 28.74% - 33.53% (3-4 hits to KO)
Click to expand...

Be careful with this calc; it's a bit misleading.

When Skill Link is added into any equation, problems arise - the chance of getting a critical hit at least once in 2 attacks (a whopping 10 Tail Slaps) is far higher than usual - there is about a 48% chance of at least one critical hit occurring. I don't know the exact chance of a KO, but it's far more likely than a fraction of a percent with SR and Spikes. I don't think Cincinno will be staying in NU for long to begin with (it has a > 125 BP (assuming crits) no repercussions STAB and 115 base Speed, for god's sake), but be aware that Tangela is not a perfect counter.

On a side note, Choice Band is nearly guaranteed to OHKO Tangela with SR and spikes if it gets at least one crit in the process. Two crits means Tangela's dead.
 
Solrock is getting Morning Sun which can function as semi-reliable recovery. I've always wanted to try it just because of it's typing and access to strange moves like Acrobatics.
It's stats really hurt it though. On the bright side it can now use Zen Headbutt with pretty much any move.
 
Drain Punch is in fact a very fun move to use on Cacturne. It can outspeed a large amount of the walls in NU, and a combination of Drain Punch and Grass STAB means it can prevent a lot of Pokemon from setting up Stealth Rock. Being able to OHKO Bastiodon / Probopass with Drain Punch and destroy Golem with the Grass STAB of your choice is nice, and it still gets Sucker Punch to circumvent its mediocre Speed stat. Cacturne also got Superpower from the move tutors if thats your thing. The main advantage though is being able to use Drain Punch with Water Absorb, giving Cacturne yet more utility.

Solrock just wishses it had better stats. Will-O-Wisp with Morning Sun as well as that typing and Levitate seems really cool on paper, but it just doesn't have the defenses to back it up.

When discussing Pokemon here, try to relate them to actually relevant Pokemon in the NU metagame, rather than randomly picking and chosing damage calcs to prove ~nothing. You know who I am talking to.
 
Rizen said:
Articuno, Snow Cloak may be your saving grace. Gained Signal Beam, otherwise I have no idea what to do with you still, and even under a +20% evasion, the rock weakness is still too much to risk with little in return (Blizzard/Signal Beam/Ancient Power) being your Sp. Offensive moves now. Hurricane may now be usable but still too much to risk even in rain. If we jump back to Gen IV you get Ominous Wind, although if we go back to Gen III and jump into XD you got Ice Beam and Extrasensory. Still no idea what to do with you.
Click to expand...

I'm honestly hoping to try an LO Roost + 3-Attack set with max speed and max special attack. Articuno can afford some risks with its bulk, so Hurricane is a shoo-in. As for its 3rd attack, Hidden Power Ground covers all 4 of its weaknesses, so I'd say that.

Having said that, Snow Cloak is going to be paramount to offensive sets since it's no longer focused on any stall-based gameplan.

Finally, Choice Articuno is a decent possibility. I like to think of Specs in the same sort of vein of Choice Band Muk. Not sure how much mileage Articuno gets out of Scarf, but...eh, it's there.
 
Gothitelle may be interesting, not necessarily as a revenge killer, but as a support pokemon.... With access to dualscreens, trick room, rain dance, heal bell, gravity, magic coat, taunt, trick, torment, status, a fair offensive movepool and SpA, usable 70/95/110 defenses and the illustrious shadow tag, it should be capable of finding many opportunities to set up field conditions for its team, especially by trapping non-threatening pokemon like audino or alomomola.
This is, of course, all theorymon, as I'll wait to try it until after the server updates, but it sounds quite useful.


Edit: @Breh- Oh, you're right, I don't know where I got the impression that this had been released....
 
Why are people debating Snow Cloak Articuno? Snow Warning is banned from the tier, and manual Hail is worthless! :p
 
gothitelle is largely outclassed by musharna until it gets shadow tag.

Once it does, though, well, it'll be quite strong and I don't think it'll stay NU for long. The prospect of a subCM set is very, very enticing; even better is that all it takes is just one use of Memento on a wall to seriously incapacitate it.
 
erisia said:
Why are people debating Snow Cloak Articuno? Snow Warning is banned from the tier, and manual Hail is worthless! :p
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Using Hail is really jank tech against other weather users; it hits most Pokemon, eliminates their weather, and goes away after not too long.

That, and I'm really thinking Icy Rock (along with Smooth Rock) is severely underused all because you can't get Chlorophyll/Swift Swim sweeps like you can with the other two rocks. Snow Cloak might be considered defensive, and rightfully so, but it has some aggressive properties behind it.
 
Hail is worse than other types of weather because it doesn't power up attacks or make any Pokemon faster, which are the primary reasons for using weather. Perfect accuracy Blizzard and a chance to dodge attacks just isn't worth the time required to repeatedly set up Hail and waste a moveslot on a Pokemon.
 
Also, unlike Sandstorm, the only Pokemon that resist the effects of it are Ice types or Pokemon with Magic Guard/Overcoat, which severely limit team building unless you don't mind the damage yourself.'
 
Shinji Mimura said:
Not necessarily. Using Hail is really jank tech against other weather users; it hits most Pokemon, eliminates their weather, and goes away after not too long.

That, and I'm really thinking Icy Rock (along with Smooth Rock) is severely underused all because you can't get Chlorophyll/Swift Swim sweeps like you can with the other two rocks. Snow Cloak might be considered defensive, and rightfully so, but it has some aggressive properties behind it.
Click to expand...

Just to add to this: weather isn't used commonly enough in NU to justify the use of Hail as an anti-weather attack. If you're in the business of beating other weathers by setting up your own, you might as well be using a rain/sun team yourself simply because they have so many more benefits than hail (or even Sandstorm, for that matter). Snow Cloak and passive damage against both teams isn't a good enough reason to waste a moveslot for it, imo.
 
On the subject of weather. I've already encoutered some effective rain stall teams using Phione as the inducer, and have to say that after using it, I love it and believe it will be really good come July.

The Amoonguss, Aloma core will be stronger with Amoonguss getting regenerator and benefiting from rain by mitigating his fire weakness, as well as being able to tank the electric and grass attacks that will hurt Phione and Aloma. Hydration is awesome, in fact I probably won't even use Reg Aloma when it's released because I find Hydration to be a bit better.

EDIT: To further the point about Amoonguss, in the rain he can take a CB Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz, live and retaliate with Spore.

CS Scarf isn't even a guaranteed 2HKO...and will most likely die on the second recoil only for Amonguss to switch out and regain it's HP back.
And of course, Phione has a surprising combination of bulk and speed to be one of the more annoying pokemon in the tier, with full health recovery for free and the ability to scout and burn.

I also like that the team in general that I've induced is almost entirely immune to status and sleep, which should be big in the next several months. As well as Rain Dance hurting Synthesis and Moonlight users such as Tangela(future) and Musharna(currently)


I may try out each weather style. I think Hail is a rather useless gimmick so I won't bother with that, and there's no Sand Rush users in the tier outside of Drillbur(lol)

Perhaps I'll try Sand Veil stall with Sandshew, Stunfisk and filler but it doesn't look very promising and the biggest problem with Sandstorm is that it has horrible inducers. Perhaps Miltank.


Rain Offense is pretty much the exact same, but may be quite a bit better with arguably one of the biggest Ludicolo checks(Cryogonal) out of the tier.

And Sun Offense is still mediocre, but some of the sweepers are getting some new toys, so it may have an effect on the team as a whole.
 
^ I can justify this. This guy's rain stall team is quite effective, and if it wasnt for some timely hax, he would have completely dismantled my hyperoffensive team. Manual weather albeit uncommon, isn't completely dead in NU. However, iim not convinced that manual hail is the way to go, as there are few decent ice types in the tier, imo. Sand Im not sure about. I may try to test it, or maybe not. I dont think it would be "good" per say, but i think it may be alright, although difficult to use and probably not worth the effort.
 
Shinji Mimura said:
Not necessarily. Using Hail is really jank tech against other weather users; it hits most Pokemon, eliminates their weather, and goes away after not too long.

That, and I'm really thinking Icy Rock (along with Smooth Rock) is severely underused all because you can't get Chlorophyll/Swift Swim sweeps like you can with the other two rocks. Snow Cloak might be considered defensive, and rightfully so, but it has some aggressive properties behind it.
Click to expand...

Sadly Shinji, everyone is right about Hail being rather useless in NU. I had actually tried to make a Hail team as a gimmick, with any solid Pokemon that I felt could abuse it. I quickly saw several problems: Fighting Pokemon are rampant in the tier, as are Fighting attacks. Most of the Hail inducers are either weak to Fighting, frail, or have no other use except to set it up.

Like Full2Half mentioned, weather in general isn't common at all. Hail is harder to set up, harder to abuse, and harder to build a proper team around. Blizzard would seem like a great move to spam, but outside of Hail (a very common occurrence with the general fragility of the inducers) it isn't very reliable. Most of the Hail related abilities rely on luck and still only last for as long as Hail is up. With Sun and Rain, there are tangible and reliable benefits.

The only reliable Hail ability is Ice Body, which is more helpful in permanent hail. Stallrein would be fear inducing if there was permanent Hail, but with only 5-6 turns of benefit, it won't really be enough. If there were more benefits to using Hail, then maybe it could succeed. Sadly, it and Sand are not very reliable in NU (for the record, I made a Sand team as well. It didn't do too bad, but I wasn't impressed either).
 
Just a note, but Regenerator Alomamola is out.

On the topic of rain, has anybody tried out Swanna again (trop, I'm looking at you)? Although this is possibly a bit idealistic, it can run a Choice Altaria-esque set with Surf/Hurricane/Rain Dance/Rest.
 
I've seen quite a few Swanna's on the ladder and I'm positive that AlexArthur and Tribute are using it. From my experiences I can say that it works very well as a standalone sweeper and doesn't usually require rain support. It can demolish common cores such as Amoonguss + Alomomola and is extremely hard to switch into. Hurricane misses weren't as common as you might think.

Edit: This has nothing to do with BW2
 
The difference BW2 will (Eventually?) make made for swanna is that it can setup rain for itself on things like aloma that try and status is and then proceed to spam hurricane/rain boosted surfs

This of course takes up a moveslot so you lose out on either ice beam, brave bird, HP grass, or roost depending on your set/choice
 
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