BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Well yeah, revenging Haxorus isn't much of a problem, (although Dragon Dance sets are a little trickier) but the problem is in order to revenge something you need to give something up, since I guess Forry can only handle it, but I think Swords Dance boosted moves such as Earthquake and Aqua Tail in Rain can potentially KO it.

Skore said:
Whimsicott does alright as a weather setter/statuser. With a moveset of Rain Dance/ Whirlwind/ U-Turn/ Stun Spore or Toxic you could probably cause a few rage quits.
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Whimsicott is good for priority and everything (also why Whirldwind?) but something like Celebi would overall be more useful, like it can deal with Breloom and Keldeo fairly well but there's not much Whimsicott would do besides Stun Sporing all over the place. I don't necessarily need priority on it - I was just wondering what pokemon could be good. The problem with Celebi is that Rain Dance weakens HP Fire.
 
@probationsmack

I simply stated that Haxorus has no counters, and this remains true. No single OU poke can counter CB Haxorus in rain.

You talked about 252/252+ Forretress before. This Forretress gets 2hkoed by Aqua Tail 42.58% of the time, or simply 3hkoed while it can't ohko back and doesn't have reliable recovery.

Even if all the steels that are not running defense evs, chose to run, they still wouldn't be able to counter Haxorus. 252/252+ Scizor, Jirachi, Magnezone and Heatran all get 2hkoed by CB Aqua Tail in rain after SR.

The difficult part with Haxorus is not that it has no counters, as we already have pokes with no counters in OU, but the fact that in rain, it doesn't have to lock itself into Outrage anymore to have a powerful attack. It has a 90 BP STAB attack (in rain), that has no immunities (Mold Breaker), and has awesome neutral coverage while 2hkoing any Steel type in OU. With Mence you could get away with the fact that it has to lock itself to Outrage to do any real damage to hardcore walls, so you could later revenge kill with either your steel-type wall, or with your scarfer. But every time that CB Haxorus comes in, you either have to sacrifice a poke if you run offense, or make your physical wall lose 50% of his life, leaving it easy prey for the next physical assault, if you run balance or stall.
 
That's true I'm sure, but I would rather outspeed it with a scarfer or with priority than to sacrifice something to get Wobbuffet in and then just Sacrifice Wobbuffett to kill Haxorus. You're down 2 for 1 right there. But, he can't switch out, so that's something at least.

And I agree with Alexwolf's last point, I'm using Balance right now and I absolutely HAVE to have some sort of priority in order to avoid being steamrolled by Haxorus.
 
Shouting said:
Whimsicott is good for priority and everything (also why Whirldwind?) but something like Celebi would overall be more useful, like it can deal with Breloom and Keldeo fairly well but there's not much Whimsicott would do besides Stun Sporing all over the place. I don't necessarily need priority on it - I was just wondering what pokemon could be good. The problem with Celebi is that Rain Dance weakens HP Fire.
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Bleh, I meant Hurricane not Whirlwind, to give it a decent attacking move with that nice chance of confusion to give you a bit of para-fusion if you're that way inclined. and since Prankster means not having to invest in speed at all she can also function as a slow U-Turner if needed, allowing you to invest in defenses take a hit to get another poke in safely.
 
Skore said:
Bleh, I meant Hurricane not Whirlwind, to give it a decent attacking move with that nice chance of confusion to give you a bit of para-fusion if you're that way inclined. and since Prankster means not having to invest in speed at all she can also function as a slow U-Turner if needed, allowing you to invest in defenses take a hit to get another poke in safely.
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That makes a bit more sense now. Still, what does Whimsicott do well against? Sure, it can Stun Spore rampant Sweepers on a whim, but it doesn't really deal with the Metagame's top threats. Like for example, Celebi can switch into Breloom with no problems, but Whimiscott will have a harder time because it can't switch in anything but a Bullet seed.

I believe Hail Tentacruel was popular in the early days of B/W, but I'd much rather have rain dance since I'm using Specs Kingdra (which is awesome by the way!). I do have tentacruel on my team now, but I'm using the SubToxic set, and there really is no room for it.


Edit: @G-Von: Mamoswine has a dead even 50-50 chance to OHKO 4/0 Haxorus with Ice shard with Stealth Rock, but will never KO Haxorus without it.
 
A Fhaol Bhig said:
I use a tailwind team with Whimsicott in it. I also have Iron Ball on it so I can use switcharoo with Skarmory, turning a counter into an easy kill for Haxorus.

It's amazingly scary seeing a +2 speed, Choice Banded Haxorus.




That's the problem though, a lot of those guys have better things to be doing with their EV's. And what exactly are these counters doing back anyways? Haxorus can 2HKO most, if not all of its switch in's. If it can do that, it's not a counter. Great, your Skamory whirl winded Haxorus out, now your Skarmory has 10% health and has to deal with the new pokemon.
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Actually, my haxorus packs roar- so i get to switch THEIR skarmory, making haxorus extremely more effective. As listed in haxorus' "counters", skarmory can take outrages and roost off the damage. It can also whirlwind away the DDs- unless your haxorus has roar.
 
alexwolf said:
It does 78.14 - 92.05% to 36 HP Haxorus, which is a 31.25% chance to OHKO after SR.
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Honestly, that is probably the closest thing to a counter. Then again, Superpower probably OHKO's Mamoswine back. Damn it, this thing is such a big ass threat.
 
Sadly Haxorus doesn't have any counters as of now. You can only check him by baiting the Outrage and then going to your steel type, revenge kill him with faster mons, and carry priority.
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Err..... so what?

The "wow this pokemon has no counters" argument went out the window pretty quickly, just look at Salamence. Haxorus is good, but personally, I often feel like I need LO to do significant damage (significant being relative to what I expect with Haxorus), and yea, he gets revenged by a scarfer. Stall will play around him like they play around with pretty much every dangerous sweeper, with prediction, and a bunch of hazards (which Haxorus is weak to all three). I don't see why some people seem to be hyperventilating over Haxorus when everyone will very likely deal with it the way that always did, with prediction, steels, sacrifice, or a revenge killer.

EDIT @ Below

Not counters unless they carry Air Balloon since neither of them really enjoy an Earthquake (especially Mag).
 
ginganinja said:
Err..... so what?

The "wow this pokemon has no counters" argument went out the window pretty quickly, just look at Salamence. Haxorus is good, but personally, I often feel like I need LO to do significant damage (significant being relative to what I expect with Haxorus), and yea, he gets revenged by a scarfer. Stall will play around him like they play around with pretty much every dangerous sweeper, with prediction, and a bunch of hazards (which Haxorus is weak to all three). I don't see why some people seem to be hyperventilating over Haxorus when everyone will very likely deal with it the way that always did, with prediction, steels, sacrifice, or a revenge killer.
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Well seeing a poke with no counters is definitely a rare sight, so don't ''so what'' me. I didn't say it is broken or anything, but denying its huge potential is simply stupid. And of 'course something with no counters can still be not broken, but it will be a huge threat regardless, and this is what Haxorus is.

Stall will play around him like they always did? I would love to see this! Well i want to see what your stall team will do when they encounter a CB Haxorus in rain. Go to Skarm? Ok lose half of your life, and then go to a water resist. Next time that Haxorus comes in, you are in for some serious pain...! I have done this so many times it isn't even funny. Stall is really in pain right now.

And stop ignoring facts. You say ''everyone will still deal with him as they did'', and i ask you how is this possible when walling him is impossible right now? Of 'course some options remain (revenge kill, priority, steels), but you can't deny that the ways to play around Haxorus have gotten fewer.
 
Marzbar, a Counter is usually something that can switch into any of Haxorus's moves and beat Haxorus if it does not switch out. Magnezone and Metagross are certainly not counters to Haxorus. A defensive "turtle" Metagross can tank a +2 LO Haxorus's Earthquake, but lacks the offensive power to kill Haxorus.

As ginganinja have pointed out, Haxorus is pretty much "uncounterable," thanks to the new BW2 tutor moves. However, we already have plenty of No-Counter Pokemon that existed before BW2, and Haxorus was pretty close to having no counters even without BW2 tutor moves.

Basically you treat Haxorus the same way you treat most Pokemon that are hard to sponge hits. You sac some mon to put some damage on Haxorus and finish it off with a revenge killer. The less opportunities you give Haxorus to switch in and sweep the better.
 
I've been using this neat mamoswine set lately-
Mamoswine @ focus sash
Timid
252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 Def
Endeavor
Ice shard
EQ
stealth rock
This set counters DD Haxorus, and can revenge all other sets if there are no rocks up. Gimmicky as it may seem, this set is featured on-site (with maybe different EV's) and I've used to to quite a good effect- KO'ing a scizor, a metagross, and bringing a slowbro down to 1 HP. WARNING- this set only works if Mamo can get in scotch free. SR spells the end of this set and everything it can do.
 
You mean Jolly Nature, right, Electrolyte?

And as I've mentioned above, Mamoswine is not a counter to Haxorus; it's only a check.

I personally feel that Sash Mamoswine is weak. Why use Endeavor when Mamoswine has little difficulty O-2HKOing most teams with LO? Sash-Endeavor Mamoswine seems to be cutting down on offense unnecessarily.
 
A bit off topic, but has anyone else noticed a rise in Azelf usage? Maybe it's just me, but I've been seeing a lot of them in battles I've played or spectated. It makes sense, I suppose; he can set up SR, which really hurt Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T while outspending the latter and Keldeo.

While I'm on the topic of Gen IV leads that aren't OU anymore, I think there might be a slight rise in Aerodactly usage. He's got enough Speed to take out both of the two more common Therian genies, and isn't a slouch offensively. He's still got Scizor and Rotom-W to deal with, but he had that problem in Gen IV as well. Just a thought.
 
'Uncounterable' doesn't mean 'unstoppable'. Salamence, Hydreigon and Dragonite with Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Superpower/filler are uncounterable. Any pokemon with base 101+ speed, a scarf, or good priority stops them cold.

To get around the aforementioned pokemon, you need to fodder something, or predict right, which makes them dangerous and scary. However, they can't sweep a well-made team except at the endgame.
 
alexwolf said:
First of all before BW2, Haxorus had a hard counter that stall teams could employ to deal with him, Skarmory. Now there is no such option.

Also where did i overrate Haxorus in my post? I said that he has no counters, which is true, so what's the big deal?
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I did mention constantly; I wasn't referring to just this one isolated instance but multiple instances. The big deal is that you're always going off about how awesome Haxorus is, but take it from somebody who knows you're setting yourself (and others) for fail if you keep going at it. If SD Haxorus is truly as awesome as you say it is, then let the power of the set speak for itself. Believe me, I love that set as much as you do, and hope that it catches on, but things aren't set it in stone. You don't have to constantly mention it lacks counters, because it's not really a noteworthy compliment.

BTW you keep mentioning that Stall greatly suffers from SD Haxorus', but at best he's just a semi notable inconvenience. Don't get me wrong, a well played Haxorus is almost always cracking open a stall team , but you need to play him efficiently / avoid status (before / after lum berry) and hope that you can force a switch. It's not an instant win, just like how CM Reuniclus wasn't an instant win against stall either.

Edit:

TL;DR: Don't do it constantly v_v
 
PK Gaming said:
I did mention constantly; I wasn't referring to just this one isolated instance but multiple instances. The big deal is that you're always going off about how awesome Haxorus is, but take it from somebody who knows you're setting yourself (and others) for fail if you keep going at it. If SD Haxorus is truly as awesome as you say it is, then let the power of the set speak for itself. You don't have to constantly mention it lacks counters, but it's not really a noteworthy compliment. (and besides, Skarmory is as close to a counter as possible to most of Haxorus' sets.)
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If i think that a poke is very good right now, why wouldn't i support it a bit here and there. Many of my teams used to be stall weak, but CB Haxorus makes stall a non issue in all the rain teams i use. I am not theorymoning, i have used the set i am talking about many times, and have got past many stall teams.

A man can't even praise a poke that got a big upgrade anymore? And it's not as if i don't back up my claims with facts...
 
The metagame has been overun on PO by Tornadus-T's, Keldeo's, and Brelooms. With Techniloom released its hard to predict whether its a SubPuncher or Swords Dance Sweeper, both of which are major threats unchecked :/
 
Poke Trainer said:
The metagame has been overun on PO by Tornadus-T's, Keldeo's, and Brelooms. With Techniloom released its hard to predict whether its a SubPuncher or Swords Dance Sweeper, both of which are major threats unchecked :/
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3469182&page=2
(breloom counter discussion)

Speaking of landorus, i use this nifty set

Landorus-T @ Choice scarf
252Atk/4Def/252Spe
Stone Edge
Earthquake
U-turn
(filler)
I tested this set out on PS with relatively good results; tried it when one stopped my haxorus' sweep.
You can come in on a DD haxorus setting up,
and proceed to OHKO with rocks up (earthquake). Thundurus -T coming in can also OHKO with HP ice (without rocks),
 
Well, most Breloom will Spore right off the bat, so it's best to switch in sleep fodder at the first sight of it. Through that, you'll know the set from there. If a Toxic Orb activates, then it's probably the SubPuncher or BU set. If no Toxic Orb activates, it's Techniloom. I just use Latias to help with all of my Breloom (and Fighting types in general) problems, but there are a fair amount of other checks and counters to each respective set.
 
Prankster Liepard has some fun options and I want to get some opinions on it. It has priority Nasty Plot, Trick, Yawn, Encore, Hone Claws and Substitute.

One idea would be to Trick a Flame Orb onto a physical attacker. Or a Choice Scarf onto a wall. You don't need to invest in Speed EV's, so it could possibly survive a hit and cripple something with Trick.

Or maybe give it a Focus Sash, use Yawn, then Protect or Subsitute, and then you can Thunder Wave or Toxic the switch, crippling two members of your opponent's team.

I also think Sharpedo deserves some love. It can hit extremely hard and fast with Speed Boost and STAB water attacks in Rain. It has access to priority, and can pull off surprise KO's with Ice Beam on those pesky dragons with its base 95 special attack. It can run mixed sets or dedicated special or physical sets, with access to Hydro Pump, Scald, Surf, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Earthquake, Crunch, Ice Fang, Aqua Jet and Waterfall.

Edit: tested some sets:

Liepard
@ Focus Sash
Prankster
Adamant
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Yawn
- Protect / Substitute
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off / Thunder Wave

Because of Prankster, no investment in speed EV's is necessary (giving Liepard maximum Atk and HP), and every move on the set gets priority. Use Yawn and then Protect / Substitute to put the foe asleep. Yawn often forces a switch, so Substitute would be better in theory. But I have found that Protect is usually better because with Focus Sash equipped, Liepard often has 1 HP and can't use Substitute, and they don't always switch after Yawn anyway. Sucker Punch deals some nasty damage and can KO weakened foes. Once the foe is asleep, you would expect your opponent to switch in something else. That's when Thunder Wave or Knock Off becomes handy to cripple the switch in. I prefer Knock Off because often the opponent prefers not to switch for some reason, rendering paralysis useless.

I've tested this set and it can pull of surprise KO's, put something to sleep, and cripple enemy sweepers and walls with Knock Off.



Sharpedo
@Focus Sash
Mild (lowers Def, raises SpA)
Speed Boost
148 Atk / 252 SpA / 108 Spe
- Protect
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse / Hydro Pump / Surf
- Aqua Jet

Nobody expects a Specially offensive Sharpedo (even though it has 95 base SpA). And because of that, everybody underestimates it. This thing is a monster. Protect + Speed Boost is the obvious first turn move usually, and after that it just becomes carnage. Ice Beam destroys just about every threat in the OU metagame. Thunderus, Tornadus, Landorus, Breloom, Virizion, Dragonite, Salamence, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Venusaur, Zapdos, Gliscor, Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Amoonguss, you name it. Anything that isn't OHKO'd is simply 2HKO'd thanks to Focus Sash. It's hilarious watching people switch in a Sharpedo counter expecting to be hit with a Waterfall or Crunch, and then watching their monster die to Ice Beam.

Dark Pulse I find the best STAB option thanks to it's flinching effect and ability to hit annoying Ghosts. I go with Aqua Jet in the last slot because even after all those speed boosts, you need a priority attack to pick of weakened foes or beat other priority users, in particular those packing Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave. Plus Aqua Jet gets STAB and is boosted in Rain, and my nature doesn't dent Sharpedo's impressive 120 base Atk. I love this set and I have swept entire teams with it.



Milotic
@Leftovers / Life Orb
Calm
Marvel Scale
252 HP / 124 SpA / 132 SpD
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Dragon Tail / HP Electric / Haze / Toxic

I am still perfecting the EV's for this set. I need it to be able to take special hits and be able to dish out the damage in return. But basically, Scald is the STAB attack, boosted in rain, good coverage, and burns the foe a lot of the time, protecting Milotic's weak Def stat. Ice Beam is their to deal with the pests of the OU metagame (see Sharpedo's description). And Recover is obvious. The last slot I give to Dragon Tail because it is just so useful. If you have multiple entry hazards set up, a bulky Milotic with Dragon Tail can be about the most frustrating thing there is, phazing pokemon and racking up lots of damage. It stops pokemon powering up (eg. Dragon Dancers, Quiver Dances, Swords Dancers, Calm Minders), it gets rid of special walls (read: Chansey and Blissey), and it even gets past Taunt. The other great thing about Milotic is that she doesn't mind switching into a T-Wave or Toxic. She can take hits, score surprise KO's with Ice Beam, and cause huge headaches with Scald and Dragon Tail.
 
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