BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[alexwolf]

I have used Specially Defensive Skarmory extensively, and while it is a very solid mon, it shouldn't be your answer to Tornadus-T. Tornadus-T has all the time he wants to kill Skarmory with confusion hax, thx to Regenerator. First of all you have 15% chance to lose from the beginning (30% the chance to get confused *50% the chance to hit yourself). This chance becomes even bigger if you account for the second hit that Tornadus-T will land, so the chances of you getting confused become even higher (25% of you getting confused and hitting yourself after 2 hits). Even if you don't get confused the 2 first turns, Tornadus-T can come back again later, or simply stay in and bash you with Hurricanes until you succumb. Skarmory only has a 3% chance to 2hko a healthy Tornadus-T so this is not helping either.

So the point is that specially defensive Skarmory is not a counter to Specs Tornadus-T, only a check, and a bad one. The only thing it can do for you, is to scout his choiced attack, so that you can after go to the appropriate resist (Heatran for Hurricane for example, or something else for FB).

But specially defensive Skarmory is an ok counter to LO Tornadus-T, as Hurricane only 4hkoes without SR, and Tornadus loses life with each hit, so you can actually stall him out, barring insane confusion hax.

 

[NTT]

One big surprise I've found is that Druddigon has been quite an effective lead. I initially only brought it in for playtesting a mono-dragon team from another site's gym league and it's been doing favourably against a lot of common stuff. I'm running;

Druddigon@Leftovers/Lum Berry
Adamant
252HP/252Att/6SpDef
Stealth Rock
Dragon Claw
Sucker Punch
Roar/Earthquake/Superpower

 

[shrang]

Infernape should be written off yet, IMO. Unlike Keldeo, however, it is not a crapshoot in the sun. Scarf Infernape actually singlehandedly demolishes many sun team Pokemon that are annoying for normal teams to deal with, like Venusaur.

 

[Electrolyte]

a lot of people are talking about how Tornadus T works well only in rain but a sun set that I've been using is pretty powerful:
Tornadus-T @ flying gem
48 HP, 208 Atk, 252 Spe
Regenerator, Naive
-Bulk up
-acrobatics
-super power/uturn
-heat wave
Sunnadus works excellently, because many of it's normal counters do not fare well in sun (sp def rachi, specs jolt) Heat wave gets the extra boost so it can plow away steels without needing investment, so that the rest of the EV's can be invested in speed and attack. BU and acrobatics have been my favorite set since tornadus came out, and with the new t forme I'm no different. Hits even harder than hurricane, and can be boosted reliably with BU. Uturn can be used to switch out and regen while still dealing a nice chunk of damage.

Also, another thing I think alexwolf forgot to mention is T-T's specs heat wave- skarm can't survive more than one if it doesn't roost. I'll include calculations later.

 

[SlimMan]

How does infenrnape beat venusaur? It's gets 2HKO by +2 power whip. and OHKO by earthquake. It can only revenge kill venusaur which is nothing to brag about b/c better priority users exist and there are pokemon that can actually tank venasaur's attacks OHKO back. If you're asking for something to take on sun teams there's heatran and Lati@s which are much more effective. Besides that sun teams aren't exactly the most prominent atm.

Infernape doesn't care that Power Whip 2HKOes it, because it's gonna be OHKOing Venusaur. So it'll happily switch into that. And yes, it's a revenge kill. Countering Venusaur straight-up is hard as all get-out because with the right move Venusaur can beat just about anything (+2 LO Sludge Bomb nails Dragons, Heatran might eat an EQ, etc.). But why do I care how I killed the Venusaur once it's dead? It's no longer a threat to my team, and that's what counts.
Also, what priority user is "better" against Venusaur? Mamoswine is about it, because Venusaur takes nothing from any priority attack other than STAB Ice Shard.
Heatran and Lati@s do well against Sun teams, but they are basically the #1 threat that Sun teams know to prepare for, so most good Sun teams have at least a couple answers for them. ScarfNape is almost unseen, so most Sun teams don't expect to be run through by a super-fast, double-STAB Flare Blitz/Fire Blast. Not to mention that ScarfNape is an all-purpose revenge-killer, while Heatran and Lati@s can't really stop boosted sweepers that they don't full-on counter.

As for the Infernape discussion going on, Infernape is sooooooooo awesome, but yeah, he's really struggling with all the Drizzle and crap running around. The Lati twins coming down from Ubers this Gen kinda ruined him. His best niche, IMO, is an NP sweeper on Sun teams. That thing is just about impossible to wall (Long ago, I did calcs for it, and I think it OHKOes Jellicent/Gyarados after SR or crazy stuff like that).

 

[alphatron]

How does infenrnape beat venusaur? It's gets 2HKO by +2 power whip and OHKO by earthquake. It can only revenge kill venusaur which is nothing to brag about b/c better priority users exist and there are pokemon that can actually tank venasaur's attacks OHKO back. If you're asking for something to take on sun teams there's heatran and Lati@s which are much more effective. Besides that sun teams aren't exactly the most prominent atm.

A few things wrong with this. First being that chlorophyll venusaur can't learn power whip at all. It's an egg move and he's make only(this is why mixed venusaur are so rare). Sludge bomb is what infernape has to worry about after a growth.

Next you say Pokemon can tank venusaur's attacks and ohko back. But you don't name any. That's fine because no such pokemom exist. Let's look at mamoswine's adamant LO ice shard.

70.6% - 84.1% is the amount of damage it does. Not only is this not a KO with stealth rock or life orb damage piled up, but venusaur will just laugh in mamoswine's face as he giga drains the damage off. Scizor does even less damage is promptly ohko'd. Even Latias is ohko'd by a +2 sludge bomb after SR damage. Venusaur is only walled by heatran (without earthquake) and chandelure. Chansey and blissey can't do much to stop him. He's immune to toxic and will simply giga drain after boosting up to +6 with growth. Chandelure can tank an attack from venusaur too. But trust me, there is nothing else. Latios against sun teams is pretty laughable but a Latias can give a sun team a fair amount of trouble unless they're using shiftry (>_>)

I wouldn't carry infernape on the off chance that I run into a sun team though. Scarf and banded infernape are great to carry under sunlight. Banded infernape 2hko's jellicient with flare blitz.

 

[haunter]

Offensive Venusaur takes 62,58% - 73,84% from Scizor's BP, I would not say that it doesn't take shit from priorities other than ice shard. CB Dnite's ES also does up to 66%. If you factor in SR and the fact that Venusaur needs LO to get past Dnite then you realize that both CB Scizor and Dragonite are decent checks to it. Actually if multiscale is intact then Dnite doesn't take more than 61% from a +2 sludge bomb.

 

[alphatron]

It's not that it doesn't take shit from other priority. It's just that they aren't the greatest checks since you'll have to sacrifice more than one Pokemon most of the time (assuming venusaur forced a switch and used growth, then ohko'd whatever you brought in).

And offensive sun is heavily reliant on SR to the point where it outright fails without it. Even blaziken sweeps were ended if you didn't have SR down.

 

[Shouting]

Like 50% of the Sun teams I've seen are actually using Sawsbuck (still have no idea how to spell it haha) Maybe becasue it fairs a little better against Dragons than Venusaur does.


Is there anything that can deal with Haxorus now?? With the new Fighting / Ground / Water / Dragon coverage, is there anything that can take a hit from it? Right now I'm just using priority / baiting it to outrage but those aren't the most sure fire things. I was think Forretress, but I'm not sure how he would actually deal damage, or hold up to the hits.

And what is a good Sunny Day / Rain Dance setter right now? My anti-rain team needs some help against Sandstorm and Sun (to a lesser extent) Celebi maybe? I was think Tornadus with Prankster, but I feel like that would be a little too obvious.

 

[superbadd]

CB Multiscale night takes anything from veno minus a boosted HP ice coming from a positive nature spa. It can also OHKO w/fire punch and outrage. Without earthquake heatran walls it to hell and back and destroys it with fire blast. There are pokes that can take hits from venosaur and do serious damage back. Each set of moves venosaur caries involves at least two counters who can out right wall it. (If you want me to go into detail I will, but I don't see the need to) If venusaur by any chance is running max speed,(which isn't a bad idea with scarf terrakion everywhere, being able to revenge max speed cloyster, scarf lati@s, ect) than infernape can forget about revenge killing it and it would be a situational check which is awful. Not gonna lie, infernape is really strong but it dropping to uu is becoming more and more inevitable by the passing day.

Edit: Sorry if I made spelling mistakes, english isn't my first language...

 

[alexwolf]

Sadly Haxorus doesn't have any counters as of now. You can only check him by baiting the Outrage and then going to your steel type, revenge kill him with faster mons, and carry priority.

 

[alphatron]

It is true that venusaur has a sad case of 4mss. I usually just partner him up with mamoswine (or lucario, terrakion, etc) to get rid of heatran and call it a day.

Good sunny day setters? I'm not really fond of using weather moves on Pokemon unless you're benefitting from it beyond temporarily messing with your opponent's tempo. For rain dance, kingdra is great. For sunny day, venusaur works just as well. I used whimsicott for this a long time ago but It didn't work out too well.

 

[Lee]

You can only check him by baiting the Outrage and then going to your steel type

gross oversimplification considering most Steel types are outsped, 2HKO'd by outrage and/or can't do anything to Haxorus in return.

CB Outrage vs 248/0 Scizor = 51.60% - 60.64%
CB Outrage vs 252/0 Jirachi = 43.81% - 51.49%
CB Outrage vs 252/0 Heatran = 43.52% - 51.30%
CB Outrage vs 252/40 Ferrothorn = 38.35% - 45.17%
CB Outrage vs 4/0 Lucario = 84.04% - 98.94%
CB Outrage vs 4/0 Magnezone = 55.32% - 65.60%

If i'm using Haxorus, I want the opponent to switch their Steel into Outrage because, more often than not, I get to cause massive damage with 2-3 Outrages and still get out alive because the Steel in question either dies or can't take me down before Outrage ends.

 

[Skore]

And what is a good Sunny Day / Rain Dance setter right now? My anti-rain team needs some help against Sandstorm and Sun (to a lesser extent) Celebi maybe? I was think Tornadus with Prankster, but I feel like that would be a little too obvious.

Whimsicott does alright as a weather setter/statuser. With a moveset of Rain Dance/ Whirlwind/ U-Turn/ Stun Spore or Toxic you could probably cause a few rage quits.

 

[PK Gaming]

Sadly Haxorus doesn't have any counters as of now. You can only check him by baiting the Outrage and then going to your steel type, revenge kill him with faster mons, and carry priority.

Which was how most players dealt with him anyway. 97 base speed with mediocre defences is nothing to write home about.

Haxorus is good (pretty great even) but you're constantly grossly overrating its potential. It's irksome.

gross oversimplification considering most Steel types are outsped, 2HKO'd by outrage and/or can't do anything to Haxorus in return.

CB Outrage vs 248/0 Scizor = 51.60% - 60.64%
CB Outrage vs 252/0 Jirachi = 43.81% - 51.49%
CB Outrage vs 252/0 Heatran = 43.52% - 51.30%
CB Outrage vs 252/40 Ferrothorn = 38.35% - 45.17%
CB Outrage vs 4/0 Lucario = 84.04% - 98.94%
CB Outrage vs 4/0 Magnezone = 55.32% - 65.60%

If i'm using Haxorus, I want the opponent to switch their Steel into Outrage because, more often than not, I get to cause massive damage with 2-3 Outrages and still get out alive because the Steel in question either dies or can't take me down before Outrage ends.

The bolded is why Haxorus is so good on triple dragon teams. You don't even need to think, you can autopilot with Outrage (unless you don't want them to set up hazards, then you use Superpower) and have other good Dragons like Salamence / Dnite / etc clean up.

 

[alexwolf]

Which was how most players dealt with him anyway. 97 base speed with mediocre defences is nothing to write home about.

Haxorus is good (pretty great even) but you're constantly grossly overrating its potential. It's irksome.

First of all before BW2, Haxorus had a hard counter that stall teams could employ to deal with him, Skarmory. Now there is no such option.

Also where did i overrate Haxorus in my post? I said that he has no counters, which is true, so what's the big deal?

 

[probationsmack]

As a haxorus user saying he has no counters is ridiculous. There are plenty of hybrd steel types that can take neutral damage from his attacks and if you ev the defenses correctly you should be able to punish it. There's also the fact that band/stab/lifeorb/supereffective priority quickly shuts its shenanigans down (minus what , aqua jet?). Or scarfers even. Haxorus is neat and fun and cool but she's not the belle of the ball. You know whats fun? Maxing out a physical tanks' defensive evs, rocky helmet, and a recovery move. Watch as the outraging dragon kills itself. I use to do this all the time with hippowdon although I imagine aqua tail has changed its effectiveness these days.

 

[Ricky Horror]

As a haxorus user saying he has no counters is ridiculous. There are plenty of hybrd steel types that can take neutral damage from his attacks and if you ev the defenses correctly you should be able to punish it. There's also the fact that band/stab/lifeorb/supereffective priority quickly shuts its shenanigans down (minus what , aqua jet?). Or scarfers even. Haxorus is neat and fun and cool but she's not the belle of the ball. You know whats fun? Maxing out a physical tanks' defensive evs, rocky helmet, and a recovery move. Watch as the outraging dragon kills itself. I use to do this all the time with hippowdon although I imagine aqua tail has changed its effectiveness these days.

Why don't you give us some examples of said counters? ^^ I myself would love a list to go by, of course if you don't mind.

 

[probationsmack]

Because I don't feel like running off to a calculator and getting all autistic about it? I just know from experience Haxorus still has to be played smart to be effective, and even then its not like opponents rarely have both priority and/or a scarfer on the same team. I think some dude above listed alot of steel types with shitty defense evs to prove some point when uh... why not run some defense for the sake of it?

edit: run pain split on forretress!

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Whimsicott does alright as a weather setter/statuser. With a moveset of Rain Dance/ Whirlwind/ U-Turn/ Stun Spore or Toxic you could probably cause a few rage quits.

I use a tailwind team with Whimsicott in it. I also have Iron Ball on it so I can use switcharoo with Skarmory, turning a counter into an easy kill for Haxorus.

It's amazingly scary seeing a +2 speed, Choice Banded Haxorus.

As a haxorus user saying he has no counters is ridiculous. There are plenty of hybrd steel types that can take neutral damage from his attacks and if you ev the defenses correctly you should be able to punish it. There's also the fact that band/stab/lifeorb/supereffective priority quickly shuts its shenanigans down (minus what , aqua jet?). Or scarfers even. Haxorus is neat and fun and cool but she's not the belle of the ball. You know whats fun? Maxing out a physical tanks' defensive evs, rocky helmet, and a recovery move. Watch as the outraging dragon kills itself. I use to do this all the time with hippowdon although I imagine aqua tail has changed its effectiveness these days.

That's the problem though, a lot of those guys have better things to be doing with their EV's. And what exactly are these counters doing back anyways? Haxorus can 2HKO most, if not all of its switch in's. If it can do that, it's not a counter. Great, your Skamory whirl winded Haxorus out, now your Skarmory has 10% health and has to deal with the new pokemon.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

B I think some dude above listed alot of steel types with shitty defense evs to prove some point when uh... why not run some defense for the sake of it?

The thing is thats not their role, they need the rest of the evs for other things. Scizor needs attack evs to hit stuff, Jirachi needs special defense evs to be a special wall, same story with Heatran, and Magnezone needs speed evs to do its job. The point was you can't simply bait haxorus to outrage and switch to anything not named Skarm or Forretress to not be 2HKOed.

 

[probationsmack]

If this damage calculator was cooperative then a max hp max defense forry (which isn't a dubious investment in this meta imo) is 30-36% and a 4hko from an adamant swords danced life orb outrage with leftovers factored in. Superpower isn't gonna muscle through it any better with the attack drops and forry can either attack it with a gyro ball, lay a hazard, or do some gimmicky pain split shenanigans.

Actually , I don't want to risk sounding like an ass as this calculator has a weird stat boost modifier ui thingy that's confusing, what calculator are you guys using as the smogon one doesn't seem up to date.

 

[Electrolyte]

I'd like to point out that Haxoruses counters are scarce but he can be revenged by quite a few pokemon, including banded mamo or closyer for the scarfed sets and specs latios or scarfed ditto for the banded sets.
If there are no rocks, sashreversal dugtrio can come in and KO if the haxorus is not scarfed. But of course this does not working on the double dancing sets.

 

[Danger Mouse]

So you can't use Skarmory to wall Haxorus anymore? Just throw in some death fodder and revenge kill it. It's not that hard, especially if it's locked into Outrage. Honestly, Haxorus probably scares me least of the dragons in OU..aside from Latias. I typically worry the most about Hydreigon, Latios, and Dragonite (if I haven't gotten rocks down)

 

[wobbahax]

To beat haxorus, you simply switch in a scarfed Landorus-T while it sets up and kill with a respective move. Pretty much. Sash mamo can 2HKO with ice shard- providing no rocks are up.