Sorry, I meant worth of being High.
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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II
- Thread starter Mekkah
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Sorry, I meant worth of being High.
Oh, also I found this in the old thread too. This is way better than the Magmar entry we have now.
Magmar (Blue only) - Bottom Tier
Availability: Very Late (Pokemon Mansion)
Stats: It has the second highest Attack of any Fire-type you can use when you get it (Flareon says hi). Everything else is what you'd expect from a Fire-type.
Movepool: The fact that it can learn Psychic, Submission, and Confuse Ray often makes one forget that it only knows Ember when you catch it, meaning that it'll generally be reliant on TMs until it gets to Lv. 43 and learns Fire Punch.
Power: Ember alone isn't going to win you any fights, meaning that you'll have to either waste Psychic/Submission on it or grind it up to Lv. 39, when it learns Confuse Ray, for it to start pulling its weight in battle.
Type: Fire is a very bad type late-game, due to the multitude of Pokemon that resist it.
Match-ups:
Blaine: As mentioned previously, Ember alone isn't going to win you any fights, and Blaine is no exception, as all of his Pokemon resist it, while they can put the hurt on Magmar with Take Down/Stomp.
Giovanni: While Ground is SE against Magmar, the only Pokemon that know moves of that type are Dugtrio, who's faster and would win if it uses Dig, and Rhydon, who's too slow to use Fissure effectively. Psychic takes care of the Nidos.
Lorelei: The only Pokemon she has that doesn't resist Fire can put Magmar to sleep.
Bruno: Handily beaten if Magmar knows Psychic. Watch out for Hi Jump Kick and Submission, however.
Agatha: Same as Bruno, but 2 of her Pokemon can Hypnosis you, and those 2 are faster than Magmar.
Lance: No. All of his Pokemon resist Fire and can beat Magmar 1-on-1.
Additional Comments: Magmar is a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong skills. While it can harm Rock-types, they aren't exactly common at the time you get it. If it could be caught earlier and learned Fire Punch and Confuse Ray earlier, it might be worthy of recognition, but it doesn't, and that is why Magmar is Bottom of the barrel.
Magmar (Blue only) - Bottom Tier
Availability: Very Late (Pokemon Mansion)
Stats: It has the second highest Attack of any Fire-type you can use when you get it (Flareon says hi). Everything else is what you'd expect from a Fire-type.
Movepool: The fact that it can learn Psychic, Submission, and Confuse Ray often makes one forget that it only knows Ember when you catch it, meaning that it'll generally be reliant on TMs until it gets to Lv. 43 and learns Fire Punch.
Power: Ember alone isn't going to win you any fights, meaning that you'll have to either waste Psychic/Submission on it or grind it up to Lv. 39, when it learns Confuse Ray, for it to start pulling its weight in battle.
Type: Fire is a very bad type late-game, due to the multitude of Pokemon that resist it.
Match-ups:
Blaine: As mentioned previously, Ember alone isn't going to win you any fights, and Blaine is no exception, as all of his Pokemon resist it, while they can put the hurt on Magmar with Take Down/Stomp.
Giovanni: While Ground is SE against Magmar, the only Pokemon that know moves of that type are Dugtrio, who's faster and would win if it uses Dig, and Rhydon, who's too slow to use Fissure effectively. Psychic takes care of the Nidos.
Lorelei: The only Pokemon she has that doesn't resist Fire can put Magmar to sleep.
Bruno: Handily beaten if Magmar knows Psychic. Watch out for Hi Jump Kick and Submission, however.
Agatha: Same as Bruno, but 2 of her Pokemon can Hypnosis you, and those 2 are faster than Magmar.
Lance: No. All of his Pokemon resist Fire and can beat Magmar 1-on-1.
Additional Comments: Magmar is a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong skills. While it can harm Rock-types, they aren't exactly common at the time you get it. If it could be caught earlier and learned Fire Punch and Confuse Ray earlier, it might be worthy of recognition, but it doesn't, and that is why Magmar is Bottom of the barrel.
Nice work, I've added those and also wrote my own Koffing entry cause I'm too lazy to find the old one.
That leaves us with Psyduck, and then we're pretty much done.
Koffing - Low Tier
Availability: Koffing is not available in Pokemon Yellow. In Red/Blue, the moment you can use Surf outside of battle, you have access to Koffing. You can find it in the Pokemon Mansion at L30-L32 at fairly common rates, or if you're really patient you can find Weezing at L37 or L39 (1% or 4% encounter rates though). Probably best to stick with Koffing and level it up to L35.
Stats: This line's stats are about the opposite of what you would hope for in-game. Weezing is slow, and its Attack and Special are average at best. The one thing it has going for it is Defense.
Movepool: Koffing can consider himself lucky to actually get a half decent STAB move in Sludge (but that still clocks in at a modest 65 base power). However, the next best moves that it learns naturally happen to be suicide moves. Thunderbolt is the only TM it can take early on, and it's quite a coveted one. Thunder and Fire Blast are out there as well, but you get them much, much later.
Power: Koffing has no problems beating a Bird Keeper with Thunderbolt, or a random Paras with Sludge. The problem is when it doesn't have an overwhelming type advantage, or when you don't have the TMs to spare for it. In those cases, you'll find that it will take a quite a while before he wins, and he's at the mercy of annoying status moves or even super effective moves in the meantime.
Type: Poison is a horrible type offensively and defensively, offering no real meaningful advantages other than Erika's gym (but there's only a total of two Pokemon Sludge can hit for double damage there). Thunderbolt is actually effective against a lot of things, though.
Match-ups:
Erika - If you go through the effort of getting yourself a Weezing before you fight Erika, this is his one chance to shine (sort of). He can outlast all the Pokemon in the gym (Exeggcute doesn't even have any Psychic moves), but because most of them are part Poison you are not going to do a whole lot against them unless you somehow got Fire Blast.
Sabrina - If it can use a Psychic move, Koffing pretty much loses. If it can't, then you should be okay, though you will need Thunderbolt to really do anything to Gastly/Haunter. You can Thunderbolt a couple of Slowpokes/Slowbros, perhaps.
Blaine - An even match-up at best. Koffing can beat joke Pokemon that don't use any "real" moves against him, but he's not going to outlast anything that uses Flamethrower/Fire Blast.
Giovanni - This gym actually only has two Ground moves to worry about: Rhydon's Fissure (which won't affect you if you're faster), and Dugtrio's Dig (which is telegraphed). But on the other hand, Sludge and Thunderbolt will do absolutely nothing, and Weezing's only other remotely viable options have 5 PP each (Hyper Beam and Fire Blast).
So our beloved mascot has average availability, and poor everything else. Not recommended.
Availability: Koffing is not available in Pokemon Yellow. In Red/Blue, the moment you can use Surf outside of battle, you have access to Koffing. You can find it in the Pokemon Mansion at L30-L32 at fairly common rates, or if you're really patient you can find Weezing at L37 or L39 (1% or 4% encounter rates though). Probably best to stick with Koffing and level it up to L35.
Stats: This line's stats are about the opposite of what you would hope for in-game. Weezing is slow, and its Attack and Special are average at best. The one thing it has going for it is Defense.
Movepool: Koffing can consider himself lucky to actually get a half decent STAB move in Sludge (but that still clocks in at a modest 65 base power). However, the next best moves that it learns naturally happen to be suicide moves. Thunderbolt is the only TM it can take early on, and it's quite a coveted one. Thunder and Fire Blast are out there as well, but you get them much, much later.
Power: Koffing has no problems beating a Bird Keeper with Thunderbolt, or a random Paras with Sludge. The problem is when it doesn't have an overwhelming type advantage, or when you don't have the TMs to spare for it. In those cases, you'll find that it will take a quite a while before he wins, and he's at the mercy of annoying status moves or even super effective moves in the meantime.
Type: Poison is a horrible type offensively and defensively, offering no real meaningful advantages other than Erika's gym (but there's only a total of two Pokemon Sludge can hit for double damage there). Thunderbolt is actually effective against a lot of things, though.
Match-ups:
Erika - If you go through the effort of getting yourself a Weezing before you fight Erika, this is his one chance to shine (sort of). He can outlast all the Pokemon in the gym (Exeggcute doesn't even have any Psychic moves), but because most of them are part Poison you are not going to do a whole lot against them unless you somehow got Fire Blast.
Sabrina - If it can use a Psychic move, Koffing pretty much loses. If it can't, then you should be okay, though you will need Thunderbolt to really do anything to Gastly/Haunter. You can Thunderbolt a couple of Slowpokes/Slowbros, perhaps.
Blaine - An even match-up at best. Koffing can beat joke Pokemon that don't use any "real" moves against him, but he's not going to outlast anything that uses Flamethrower/Fire Blast.
Giovanni - This gym actually only has two Ground moves to worry about: Rhydon's Fissure (which won't affect you if you're faster), and Dugtrio's Dig (which is telegraphed). But on the other hand, Sludge and Thunderbolt will do absolutely nothing, and Weezing's only other remotely viable options have 5 PP each (Hyper Beam and Fire Blast).
So our beloved mascot has average availability, and poor everything else. Not recommended.
That leaves us with Psyduck, and then we're pretty much done.
Just looked at the list and I have some thoughts. Note that I haven't really used any of these so this is actually me trying to be educated on this stuff, so if I'm saying something stupid then sorry. Anyway:
So yeah, any thoughts?
- Just noticed that we have Shellder in Low. You can catch it at Seaform Islands at at least level 30 (so it has Ice STAB in Aurora Beam straight away), and then you can evolve it and level it up at Cinnabar. This would make it a bit like the traded Seel, but without the boosted experience. But surely this deserves at least Mid?
- Speaking as the guy who did the Chansey and Kangaskhan entries, I still don't like Tauros in Mid. Sorry, but no matter how good it is as a battler, the amount of time you'll save by having it on your team will most likely be more than cancelled out by the amount of time you'll spend looking for it. Consider that Tauros is easiest to find in the Area 4 grass, which is the one patch of grass that you DON'T enter when you go for Surf. So to get it, you'll certainly have to actively look for it (whereas you can at least get lucky with the other safari exclusives by encountering them on the way to Surf, although that is obviously still unlikely). Sure, if you get lucky and find one quickly, then go ahead and use. However, we should not be recommending to people that they should PLAN to have it on their team and actually spend time LOOKING for it. Remember, this is ultimately a recommendation guide, and I can't recommend looking for such an unavailable pokemon when there are many alternatives that can get the job done just as well but are easier to obtain.
- What happened to the discussion about putting RB Farfetch'd in Mid? Bad stats, but the boosted experience and unique movepool allow it to do ok for a while, and it has convenient availability and provides unique Cut + Fly support at the same time (Charizard gets both but only in Yellow). Obviously Farfetch'd sucks in Yellow, but is there possibly justification for having a separate entry for RB Farfetch'd in Mid, or are the advantages in RB not worth it?
- NoUserName already mentioned Bellsprout, but what exactly does it have over Yellow Bulbasaur that puts it in a higher tier? Wrap and early powders? I'd rather go with Bulbasaur because it evolves earlier, gets Razor Leaf earlier, and gets Body Slam earlier (Bellsprout can only get it as a Victreebel).
So yeah, any thoughts?
Shellder probably deserves another look, it actually seems pretty good. Can't go wrong with Water/Ice lategame, especially if you throw in Ice Beam or Blizzard TM. The fact that it doesn't even need those to have Ice STAB is really good too.
I was sceptical on Tauros as well and would not mind putting it to Low. I was kind of convinced to put it to Mid when I realized it doesn't _need_ any TMs (as opposed to what I first thought), though without any high-want TMs the best move it has is Strength.
I don't know why Farfetch'd is still in Low. I rallied for it to be put in Mid so much but then when I got control of the list I never actually moved it. I actually used it in-game so I'll rewrite it.
From my experience you generally get Bulbasaur later and lower than Bellsprout when all is said and done in Yellow unless you use the Potion glitch (which we outlawed). So that could be the reason. Bellsprout also starts out with a Grass move that lets it take out Geodudes and Onixes, whereas Bulbasaur is stuck Tackling for a bit. I agree with your reasonings though, and both should probably be in the same tier.
I was sceptical on Tauros as well and would not mind putting it to Low. I was kind of convinced to put it to Mid when I realized it doesn't _need_ any TMs (as opposed to what I first thought), though without any high-want TMs the best move it has is Strength.
I don't know why Farfetch'd is still in Low. I rallied for it to be put in Mid so much but then when I got control of the list I never actually moved it. I actually used it in-game so I'll rewrite it.
From my experience you generally get Bulbasaur later and lower than Bellsprout when all is said and done in Yellow unless you use the Potion glitch (which we outlawed). So that could be the reason. Bellsprout also starts out with a Grass move that lets it take out Geodudes and Onixes, whereas Bulbasaur is stuck Tackling for a bit. I agree with your reasonings though, and both should probably be in the same tier.
I remember finding a Level 40 Shellder in Yellow through fishing once.
Agreed on Tauros being lower.
Also, I beat Koga using Jolteon and Ninetails. Jolteon easily destroyed his team, then I did it again with Ninetails. Dig was a 2HKO on his team and a 3HKO on Weezing, and Ninetails hated being poisoned. So yeah, still not seeing any reason for Ninetails to be mid so far. I would say Low
Agreed on Tauros being lower.
Also, I beat Koga using Jolteon and Ninetails. Jolteon easily destroyed his team, then I did it again with Ninetails. Dig was a 2HKO on his team and a 3HKO on Weezing, and Ninetails hated being poisoned. So yeah, still not seeing any reason for Ninetails to be mid so far. I would say Low
Well I'd be more inclined to make Shellder High actually. It has the same Special as Blastoise (who is High in Yellow), but with Ice STAB, arguably better availability than the Yellow version, and that massive Defence. It also has higher Attack, and it gets Tri Attack (wtf) for water types which is nice since it is similar in power to Body Slam but with far less competition.
So I guess I'll do Shellder and Tauros again once the Orange League is finished. I haven't used either but Cloyster would be similar to Seel, and I can just work off the current Tauros entry.
@ Mekkah: I actually disagree with both of those reasons for Bellsprout being better than Bulbasaur. In my experience, Pikachu is happy enough for Bulbasaur as soon as you arrive in Cerulean regardless of whether you do the glitch or not (such as in my most recent playthrough with Squirtle, Porygon and Seel). I guess it depends on how you play though. What I would do is take Bulbasaur if it is available as soon as you get to Cerulean, and use Bellsprout if Bulbasaur isn't availiable straight away.
You can baby Bulbasaur using the trainers along Nugget Bridge. It should be level 13 by the time you reach the end. Since Bellsprout comes after Nugget Bridge, the fact that it gets Vine Whip sooner isn't relevent anymore.
So now I just need to decide whether to drop Bellsprout to Mid or boost Yellow Bulbasaur to High. I'll probably drop Bellsprout.
So I guess I'll do Shellder and Tauros again once the Orange League is finished. I haven't used either but Cloyster would be similar to Seel, and I can just work off the current Tauros entry.
@ Mekkah: I actually disagree with both of those reasons for Bellsprout being better than Bulbasaur. In my experience, Pikachu is happy enough for Bulbasaur as soon as you arrive in Cerulean regardless of whether you do the glitch or not (such as in my most recent playthrough with Squirtle, Porygon and Seel). I guess it depends on how you play though. What I would do is take Bulbasaur if it is available as soon as you get to Cerulean, and use Bellsprout if Bulbasaur isn't availiable straight away.
You can baby Bulbasaur using the trainers along Nugget Bridge. It should be level 13 by the time you reach the end. Since Bellsprout comes after Nugget Bridge, the fact that it gets Vine Whip sooner isn't relevent anymore.
So now I just need to decide whether to drop Bellsprout to Mid or boost Yellow Bulbasaur to High. I'll probably drop Bellsprout.
Beat Sabrina with Ninetails and Jolteon. Ninetails actually does well here, due to its decent Special and Body Slam to hit her physically frail Pokemon.
I'm not too big on Jolteon so far. I don't get why its high tier and Voltorb in mid tier when they basically have the same niche (Fast Pokemon who spam Thunderbolt).
I'm not too big on Jolteon so far. I don't get why its high tier and Voltorb in mid tier when they basically have the same niche (Fast Pokemon who spam Thunderbolt).
I know this seems pretty ironic considering the reasons why my Ninetales analysis was rejected - but in a normal playthrough Ninetales wouldn't be honoured with the Body Slam TM and think that if it relies on it to beat Sabrina then that needs to be kept in mind.
The main advantage of using Jolteon over Voltorb is its availability. Jolteon can get to work straight away while Voltorb requires grinding.
In Yellow, it gets Pin Missile at level 36. This gives it a chance against the Grass types that Voltorb/Electrode shouldn't be taking on (all of them bar the rare Tangela are 4x weak to Bug so I assume it would OHKO them). Pin Missile is a bit late in RB though.
That's all I can come up with for Voltorb vs. Jolteon, but I think the fact that Jolteon has the most convenient availability of all the electric types except the sucky Yellow Pikachu (and Zapdos I suppose but Zapdos is harder to obtain than Jolteon) shouldn't be overlooked.
It probably wouldn't get Body Slam ordinarily, but there's still Take Down and Double-Edge if you want a Normal Attack on it.
For what it's worth, Ninetales does have 76 Attack which isn't great but it isn't a complete disaster either. Given how barren its movepool is, giving it a one of the Normal attack TMs is tempting.
Well, I gave Ninetails both Body Slam and Dig. But I DO plan on writing that there are many other Pokemon who want those TMs, and are better suited to get those TMs.
As far as Pin Missile goes. Jolteon only has 65 Base Attack and I remember in Yellow Gary's Jolteon could barely 2HKO my underleveled Venusaur. Although, given Jolteon's chance of critical hits...maybe you are right. Basically, the way you were talking about not seeing why Bellsprout and Yellow Bulbasaur were in different tiers, is the way I feel about Jolteon and Voltorb.
As far as Pin Missile goes. Jolteon only has 65 Base Attack and I remember in Yellow Gary's Jolteon could barely 2HKO my underleveled Venusaur. Although, given Jolteon's chance of critical hits...maybe you are right. Basically, the way you were talking about not seeing why Bellsprout and Yellow Bulbasaur were in different tiers, is the way I feel about Jolteon and Voltorb.
I honestly don't think that Voltorb vs. Jolteon is the same as Bellsprout vs. Bulbasaur. Like, I don't want to keep harping on about availability, but it is a significant difference. Not just in the level difference and evolutionary stage difference, but when they actually come. Voltorb (in RB) comes underleveled and before Rock Tunnel, where it is very hit and miss. Sure it can nail the Slowpoke and Pidgey that you come across, but then there are also lots of Ground and Grass type pokemon too. Jolteon can pretty much start doing its thing by sending it to maul the Rocket Grunts in the Hideout. It only cares about the occasional Ground types (basically Giovanni, as well as the 2 trainers before him in RB), but for the most part it is very effective because it kills all the worthless Rattata and stuff.
The Pin Missile thing is less important, but surely it would be viable for the Grass types used by the average trainer? There are a large number of trainers with Grass types east of Fuchsia, and as long as you do things in an appropriate order (i.e. do Cycling Road first) you should have Pin Missile in time for those trainers. I don't think the example you gave for Gary's Jolteon is fair considering the stat experience your Venusaur would likely have in Defence! I assume that regular trainers have little/no stat experience? Also, most trainers would be using unevolved things like Oddish, which is a step down from your Venusaur, and they would not be able to stomach Pin Missile as easily (and it would make Jolteon a better choice against Grass types than Voltorb).
That produces an actual difference in efficiency between Jolteon and Voltorb despite the fact that they perform the same role.
What I was getting at with Bellsprout vs. Yellow Bulbasaur is that they are actually similar in efficiency. They come at pretty much the same time and they battle in similar ways, and although each has their own advantages they have essentially just as efficient as each other in the end. There is no cut-and-dry superior option in my opinion. I prefer Bulbasaur personally (evolves earlier and gets its best moves earlier too), but some may prefer Bellsprout for Victreebel's higher Attack and earlier powders, especially if Pikachu isn't happy enough to get Bulbasaur right away.
The Pin Missile thing is less important, but surely it would be viable for the Grass types used by the average trainer? There are a large number of trainers with Grass types east of Fuchsia, and as long as you do things in an appropriate order (i.e. do Cycling Road first) you should have Pin Missile in time for those trainers. I don't think the example you gave for Gary's Jolteon is fair considering the stat experience your Venusaur would likely have in Defence! I assume that regular trainers have little/no stat experience? Also, most trainers would be using unevolved things like Oddish, which is a step down from your Venusaur, and they would not be able to stomach Pin Missile as easily (and it would make Jolteon a better choice against Grass types than Voltorb).
That produces an actual difference in efficiency between Jolteon and Voltorb despite the fact that they perform the same role.
What I was getting at with Bellsprout vs. Yellow Bulbasaur is that they are actually similar in efficiency. They come at pretty much the same time and they battle in similar ways, and although each has their own advantages they have essentially just as efficient as each other in the end. There is no cut-and-dry superior option in my opinion. I prefer Bulbasaur personally (evolves earlier and gets its best moves earlier too), but some may prefer Bellsprout for Victreebel's higher Attack and earlier powders, especially if Pikachu isn't happy enough to get Bulbasaur right away.
Well, there's a lot of trainers after Rock Tunnel that you fight before you get to Celadon. You can also fight Gary in the Tower and easily grind against his Gyarados and Pigeotto for experience.
I honestly don't think you'll have Pin Missile by the time you fight those Grass type trainers. It learns Pin Missile at Level 48, which is probably around the time of E4. So I guess its good for Exeggutor....and maybe Jynx? I'll test that out when I get there. There's also a traded Electrode that can obtained via trade on Cinnabar Island, has anyone tested that?
Now in Yellow, there is a MASSIVE difference. Jolteon gets Pin Missile earlier, and Voltorb isn't available until Power Plant. So I see it being a tier difference there.
By the way, is doing Cycling Road first the appropriate order? Because if you go by Route order, 13 and 14 lead you to do the Lavender Town -> Fuschia City way instead...if I remember correctly anyway. Then again, whole game is pretty weird when it comes to that stuff.
I honestly don't think you'll have Pin Missile by the time you fight those Grass type trainers. It learns Pin Missile at Level 48, which is probably around the time of E4. So I guess its good for Exeggutor....and maybe Jynx? I'll test that out when I get there. There's also a traded Electrode that can obtained via trade on Cinnabar Island, has anyone tested that?
Now in Yellow, there is a MASSIVE difference. Jolteon gets Pin Missile earlier, and Voltorb isn't available until Power Plant. So I see it being a tier difference there.
By the way, is doing Cycling Road first the appropriate order? Because if you go by Route order, 13 and 14 lead you to do the Lavender Town -> Fuschia City way instead...if I remember correctly anyway. Then again, whole game is pretty weird when it comes to that stuff.
There is no "correct" order. Route order is meaningless considering you have to go along Route 24/25 to get to Bill's house before going along many lower numbered routes! You do things in the order you want (or the order that is fastest for the team you're using). The goal is to finish the game, and as long as you don't cheat/glitch then anything is fair game.
Honestly, I'm not going to discuss Pin Missile anymore anyway. I was specifically talking about Yellow Jolteon for Pin Missile, but considering Voltorb is much later in Yellow anyway it hardly matters. Of course, there's still Magnemite to compare it to...
I still think Jolteon's availability puts it above Voltorb (and Magnemite). Even ignoring Rock Tunnel and even considering the other trainers, it doesn't change the fact that Voltorb is playing the catch-up game while Jolteon isn't. But if you want to put them in the same tier then whatever.
Just what are you planning to do anyway? Drop Jolteon to Mid or bump Voltorb (and Magnemite) up to High?
Honestly, I'm not going to discuss Pin Missile anymore anyway. I was specifically talking about Yellow Jolteon for Pin Missile, but considering Voltorb is much later in Yellow anyway it hardly matters. Of course, there's still Magnemite to compare it to...
I still think Jolteon's availability puts it above Voltorb (and Magnemite). Even ignoring Rock Tunnel and even considering the other trainers, it doesn't change the fact that Voltorb is playing the catch-up game while Jolteon isn't. But if you want to put them in the same tier then whatever.
Just what are you planning to do anyway? Drop Jolteon to Mid or bump Voltorb (and Magnemite) up to High?
Agree with all of this, but not sure what you meant with that Magnemite comment. If you are referring to Magneton vs Jolteon in Yellow, I'd go with the later. Jolteon only really has a little less Special, but has much more speed and higher critical hit ratio. Not to mention a better movepool.
Hmm, I have to decide after I finish my playthrough. So far Jolteon doesn't do too well against Erika, but after that it started to pick up.
Although, I made one massive overlook. Jolteon has a much better Special than Electrode, so maybe Jolteon does deserve to be in a higher tier. After this playthrough, I will probably try the traded Electrode.
Wait... so you are fine with saying that Jolteon is the better choice than Magnemite but you also think that Voltorb and Jolteon should be in the same tier?
That makes no sense. Magneton and Electrode are essentially the same thing. They have the same movepool. The stat differences between Magneton and Electrode are meaningless in most instances. Magneton will be going first most of the time so it hardly matters that it's slower (and I don't think that critical hit rates should be considered in tiering considering how they can't be relied on activating at the right time, regardless of how high the rate is). Electrode is getting the same kills as Magneton most of the time so it hardly matters that it's weaker.
Either Jolteon is in a higher tier than both, or it is in the same tier as both.
Area 4 grass don't exist according to Bulbapedia. Maybe you mean the left-Top zone of Zone 1 or you misspelled it.
About Tauros, it is "easy" to find it on Yellow with 10% in Area 1-3 and 4% in RB in Area 3.
So I finished the game. Except a Ninetails review tonight. I am going to replay as Voltorb to see where Jolteon should stand at.
I think you miss understood my movepool comment. In RB, Pin Missile and Double Kick come rather lateish, meaning that Jolteon is stuck with a similar movepool to Electrode until at least late game. Where as in Yellow, Jolteon gets Double Kick and Pin Missile early, allowing it to at least do some damage to Ground types / hit Grass types. While Yellow Jolteon doesn't get Quick Attack, it doesn't really matter due to his immense speed anyway. So Yellow Jolteon has a better movepool than Yellow Magnemite, where as RB Jolteon only really gets a movepool advantage over Electrode towards the end of the game.
Wait, atsync, you say Jolteon has better availability than Voltorb and Shellder has similar availability to Yellow Squirtle, but I don't think we have the same idea of what availability means...to me, it means how long you have a Pokemon in your party. Voltorb and Yellow Squirtle come quite abit earlier than Jolteon and Shellder. However, they also spend more time being worse than most of your team. That's a bad thing, but it's not quite the same as not being available. It's worse while they're bad, but then once they're caught up it's better.
That's sensible. Honestly my main issues are concerning availability though.
Wow really? I just assumed it was 4% and 1% like in RB. I guess that does make it better in Yellow, although it is even more underleveled. Level 21 is bad when you'll be at least 35 for so.
Hmmm I dunno, maybe it would be better to separate them by version, or even just keep them together in Low (or Mid) but add stuff emphasizing that it is a more realistic choice in Yellow than in RB.
Well, I define availability not just by how long a pokemon is in the party but how accessible their power is when you obtain them. You may have noticed in the availability sections I did for my entries that I do talk about evolution and similar things like that. Obviously coming earlier is more desirable, but just coming early doesn't mean it has good availability. Magikarp is a prime example of that.
I do think that a consideration of things beyond "how long you have a Pokemon in your party" is important. If you start off weak and that slows you down, then that harms efficiency. If there is an alternative that comes later, but can get to work straight away in a way that would allow you to save time and effort compared to using the earlier but underlevel/unevolved option, then that should be factored into how available it is compared to the alternative. RB Voltorb may come a bit sooner than Jolteon but it starts at level 17 at best, and Jolteon will most likely be coming before Electrode, especially if you are using a bigger team and are sharing the experience around. So, based on my understanding of availability, I would say that Jolteon is better in that regard at least.
However, I'm intrigued by the traded Electrode. Pikachu/Raichu can be caught at a good level in the Power Plant, and grinding would be ok with the Water trainers around Cinnabar.
As it's laid out in the sections right now, Availability is the section where you talk about:
a) How early it comes (availability)
b) How easy it is to obtain (rarity, special requirements, etc.)
c) What level it's at
d) How far along it's in evolution, or how easy it is to evolve it at this point
But, availability itself is just the first category (and maybe the second one). In the availability section, you should talk about all of these, but when we're discussing between ourselves in this thread, availability just means when it appears and how easy it is to get. Ratata are really available, where as wild Tauros are not.
So I think Mekkah's just saying it's going to get confusing if you say something like Shelder is similar in availability to Yellow Squirtle-- they're not.
a) How early it comes (availability)
b) How easy it is to obtain (rarity, special requirements, etc.)
c) What level it's at
d) How far along it's in evolution, or how easy it is to evolve it at this point
But, availability itself is just the first category (and maybe the second one). In the availability section, you should talk about all of these, but when we're discussing between ourselves in this thread, availability just means when it appears and how easy it is to get. Ratata are really available, where as wild Tauros are not.
So I think Mekkah's just saying it's going to get confusing if you say something like Shelder is similar in availability to Yellow Squirtle-- they're not.
Ninetails: Low Tier
-Availability: Midgame. In Blue, Vulpix can either be found before Celadon City (where you can buy a Fire Stone and evolve him straight away), or in the Pokemon Mansion. In Yellow, Vulpix is obtained through the Game Corner, which is also in Celadon.
-Stats: Ninetails has very good Speed and Special. Its Special allows it to take Special Hits (provided they are not Water moves), and it outspeeds a lot of Pokemon. However, the rest of his stats are average at best.
-Movepool: If you evolve it into Ninetails straight away, you'll be stuck with Ember unless you feed it TM's such as Fire Blast, Body Slam, and Dig. Keep in mind the latter 2 TM are in very high demand in this game. Fire Blast also comes only later on in the game and has low PP, which may cause issues when fighting the Elite 4.
If you keep him as Vulpix or catch him later at Pokemon Mansion, you can train him to learn Confuse Ray and Flamethrower. However, Confuse Ray is not the most efficient strategy as it is a luck based moved. While Flamethrower may seem tempting, by the time you get it, Fire loses much of its value due to not being especially good against the majority of latter gym leaders/E4.
-Power: Not very powerful at all. Evolving it straight into Ninetails means you are stuck with Ember as your STAB.
-Type: Fire
Offensively, it hits Bug, Grass, and Ice for Super Effective damage. By the time you get Vulpix, you'll barely have any Bug and Ice types to fight. The majority of Bug users are battled before Celadon, where as the only Ice type you battle (that is weak to Fire) is Lorelei's Jynx. Grass is still common at this point, but you also get HM 02 Fly and TM13 Ice Beam to hit Grass types with. Fire is resisted by Rock, Water, Fire, and Dragon. Most Rock types you face in-game have weak Special and wont even like taking resisted hits, and there is only one Dragon user in the game. However, Water is problematic for Ninetails, especially with how common it is late game (all the water trainers in the water surrounding Cinnabar Island).
Fire also offers resists to Bug, Grass, and Fire. However, he is also weak to Water, Ground, and Rock moves, which is more common than Bug/Grass/Fire moves.
-Mathups:
--Erika: Despite the type advantage, Ninetails only has Ember which will not sweep her team. Also, status moves put a serious damper on Ninetails performance.
--Koga: If Ninetails was given the Dig TM, it can hit his entire team for Super Effective damage, just watch out for getting poisoned. In Yellow, Koga uses Venonats/Venomoth who are weak to Fire. However, much like Erika, you'll be stuck with Ember and Ninetails will not like being poisoned.
--Sabrina: Ninetails has the Special Bulk to survive Sabrina's move and can use Body Slam/Dig to hit her physically frail Pokemon.
--Blaine: Dig hits his whole team for Super Effective damage. While Growlithe and Ponyta are not threats, his Rapidash and Arcanine can survive a Dig. Rapidash and Arcanine also both have goo Physical Attack and can hurt Ninetails with Stomp/Take Down.
--Giovanni: Dig is Super Effective on his whole team except for Dugtrio. Despite that, Giovanni's Pokemon can take a Dig from Ninetails and wear it down with their own moves. His Dugtrio also knows Dig.
In Yellow, almost all his Pokemon know Earthquake, easily taking Ninetails out.
--Lorelei: The only one who Ninetails can safely take on is Jynx, due to her weakness to Fire.
--Bruno: His Pokemon have low Special and don't like taking Flamethower/Fire Blast. Might want to be vary on Fire Blast PP, though.
--Agatha: If you have Dig, it deals a lot of damage to her team as they are all weak to Ground except Golbat. Golbat isn't too hard to take out either, but watch out for Confuse Ray or Toxic.
--Lance: His entire team resists Fire and their powerful Hyper Beams will hurt Ninetails. Even worse, Lance's Gyarados knows Hydro Pump, which will make short work of Ninetails.
--Gary: STAB Fire moves can take out his Grass Pokemon, while Dig can hurt his Electric types, Rhydon, and Fire types (excluding Charizard). However, his Water types are a huge threat to Ninetails, and in Yellow his Sandslash can Earthquake you.
Additional Comments: Ninetails does well against some Gym Leaders/E4 members, but at the same time, its at the cost of using up two of the most valuable TM in the games - Body Slam and Dig. There will be plenty of other people who will want those two TM's, and can use it better than Ninetails. Hence why I'm placing Ninetails as Low Tier.
-Availability: Midgame. In Blue, Vulpix can either be found before Celadon City (where you can buy a Fire Stone and evolve him straight away), or in the Pokemon Mansion. In Yellow, Vulpix is obtained through the Game Corner, which is also in Celadon.
-Stats: Ninetails has very good Speed and Special. Its Special allows it to take Special Hits (provided they are not Water moves), and it outspeeds a lot of Pokemon. However, the rest of his stats are average at best.
-Movepool: If you evolve it into Ninetails straight away, you'll be stuck with Ember unless you feed it TM's such as Fire Blast, Body Slam, and Dig. Keep in mind the latter 2 TM are in very high demand in this game. Fire Blast also comes only later on in the game and has low PP, which may cause issues when fighting the Elite 4.
If you keep him as Vulpix or catch him later at Pokemon Mansion, you can train him to learn Confuse Ray and Flamethrower. However, Confuse Ray is not the most efficient strategy as it is a luck based moved. While Flamethrower may seem tempting, by the time you get it, Fire loses much of its value due to not being especially good against the majority of latter gym leaders/E4.
-Power: Not very powerful at all. Evolving it straight into Ninetails means you are stuck with Ember as your STAB.
-Type: Fire
Offensively, it hits Bug, Grass, and Ice for Super Effective damage. By the time you get Vulpix, you'll barely have any Bug and Ice types to fight. The majority of Bug users are battled before Celadon, where as the only Ice type you battle (that is weak to Fire) is Lorelei's Jynx. Grass is still common at this point, but you also get HM 02 Fly and TM13 Ice Beam to hit Grass types with. Fire is resisted by Rock, Water, Fire, and Dragon. Most Rock types you face in-game have weak Special and wont even like taking resisted hits, and there is only one Dragon user in the game. However, Water is problematic for Ninetails, especially with how common it is late game (all the water trainers in the water surrounding Cinnabar Island).
Fire also offers resists to Bug, Grass, and Fire. However, he is also weak to Water, Ground, and Rock moves, which is more common than Bug/Grass/Fire moves.
-Mathups:
--Erika: Despite the type advantage, Ninetails only has Ember which will not sweep her team. Also, status moves put a serious damper on Ninetails performance.
--Koga: If Ninetails was given the Dig TM, it can hit his entire team for Super Effective damage, just watch out for getting poisoned. In Yellow, Koga uses Venonats/Venomoth who are weak to Fire. However, much like Erika, you'll be stuck with Ember and Ninetails will not like being poisoned.
--Sabrina: Ninetails has the Special Bulk to survive Sabrina's move and can use Body Slam/Dig to hit her physically frail Pokemon.
--Blaine: Dig hits his whole team for Super Effective damage. While Growlithe and Ponyta are not threats, his Rapidash and Arcanine can survive a Dig. Rapidash and Arcanine also both have goo Physical Attack and can hurt Ninetails with Stomp/Take Down.
--Giovanni: Dig is Super Effective on his whole team except for Dugtrio. Despite that, Giovanni's Pokemon can take a Dig from Ninetails and wear it down with their own moves. His Dugtrio also knows Dig.
In Yellow, almost all his Pokemon know Earthquake, easily taking Ninetails out.
--Lorelei: The only one who Ninetails can safely take on is Jynx, due to her weakness to Fire.
--Bruno: His Pokemon have low Special and don't like taking Flamethower/Fire Blast. Might want to be vary on Fire Blast PP, though.
--Agatha: If you have Dig, it deals a lot of damage to her team as they are all weak to Ground except Golbat. Golbat isn't too hard to take out either, but watch out for Confuse Ray or Toxic.
--Lance: His entire team resists Fire and their powerful Hyper Beams will hurt Ninetails. Even worse, Lance's Gyarados knows Hydro Pump, which will make short work of Ninetails.
--Gary: STAB Fire moves can take out his Grass Pokemon, while Dig can hurt his Electric types, Rhydon, and Fire types (excluding Charizard). However, his Water types are a huge threat to Ninetails, and in Yellow his Sandslash can Earthquake you.
Additional Comments: Ninetails does well against some Gym Leaders/E4 members, but at the same time, its at the cost of using up two of the most valuable TM in the games - Body Slam and Dig. There will be plenty of other people who will want those two TM's, and can use it better than Ninetails. Hence why I'm placing Ninetails as Low Tier.
I've been thinking about this Jolteon/Voltorb/Magnemite thing a bit more and although I still think that it should be left as is, I think that if we are going to change things around it should be one of the following:
Option A - If the traded Electrode in RB turns out to be better than a caught one:
High: Jolteon, RB Voltorb
Mid: Magnemite, Y Voltorb
Option B - If the traded Electrode isn't better than a caught one:
High: Jolteon, RB Voltorb, Y Magnemite
Mid: RB Magnemite, Y Voltorb
The reason why I think Y Magnemite should be bumped up if the traded Electrode turns out not to be worth it is because if we put RB Voltorb in High to match Jolteon but leave Y Magnemite in Mid, then it makes it look like that RB Voltorb is better than Y Magnemite too, which it isn't (for the reasons I just gave). If the traded Electrode DOES turn out to be better than a wild Magnemite and Voltorb, then you can justify putting RB Voltorb in High and leaving Magnemite in Mid, but even if the difference between Y Jolteon and Y Magnemite is greater than the difference between RB Jolteon and RB Voltorb, putting RB Voltorb in a higher tier than Y Magnemite is a bit misleading.
Of course there are other options I guess, including dropping Jolteon to Mid, so if the above is too confusing then I guess something else can be done.
Also, can people please stop saying that I said that Yellow Squirtle and Shellder are similar in availability? I didn't say that. Of course they are different in availability. I actually said that Shellder has arguably better availability, based on my personal understanding of what availability means. If we've decided that we are only going to discuss availability in terms of when pokemon are obtained, then obviously saying Shellder has better availability than Yellow Squirtle is wrong and I accept that, but please don't misquote me.
Option A - If the traded Electrode in RB turns out to be better than a caught one:
High: Jolteon, RB Voltorb
Mid: Magnemite, Y Voltorb
Option B - If the traded Electrode isn't better than a caught one:
High: Jolteon, RB Voltorb, Y Magnemite
Mid: RB Magnemite, Y Voltorb
The reason why I think Y Magnemite should be bumped up if the traded Electrode turns out not to be worth it is because if we put RB Voltorb in High to match Jolteon but leave Y Magnemite in Mid, then it makes it look like that RB Voltorb is better than Y Magnemite too, which it isn't (for the reasons I just gave). If the traded Electrode DOES turn out to be better than a wild Magnemite and Voltorb, then you can justify putting RB Voltorb in High and leaving Magnemite in Mid, but even if the difference between Y Jolteon and Y Magnemite is greater than the difference between RB Jolteon and RB Voltorb, putting RB Voltorb in a higher tier than Y Magnemite is a bit misleading.
Of course there are other options I guess, including dropping Jolteon to Mid, so if the above is too confusing then I guess something else can be done.
Also, can people please stop saying that I said that Yellow Squirtle and Shellder are similar in availability? I didn't say that. Of course they are different in availability. I actually said that Shellder has arguably better availability, based on my personal understanding of what availability means. If we've decided that we are only going to discuss availability in terms of when pokemon are obtained, then obviously saying Shellder has better availability than Yellow Squirtle is wrong and I accept that, but please don't misquote me.
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