Why lugia as being banned outright.
Seriously let me have my brick wall for a bit.
Seriously let me have my brick wall for a bit.
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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508
- Thread starter Huntofthelion
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I get what you're trying to say, and I think that certain threats in the Uber tier should be brought down at the beginning of Gen VI, but something about what you're saying leads me to believe that you've never played in Ubers before. i could be completely wrong about that, and if I am, then I'm sorry, but that tier has characteristics that are undesirable for any real metagame.
You see, Ubers is not a metagame. It's a ban list. The Pokémon in Ubers form a somewhat function tier in that you can play using these Pokémon and have it be fun. But having played Ubers since the beginning of BW, I can honestly say that there are reasons that each and every one of those Pokémon are banned from standard play. Arceus is broken. Even by Uber standards, Arceus is ridiculously broken. It has access to one of the largest movepools in the game, base 120 stats across the board, and it can become any type by holding a specific item. That is broken. If given the ability, I would ban Arceus from Ubers simply because it is too powerful and versatile for it's own good. But that can't happen, because Ubers isn't a tier; it is, as I said before, a ban list.
My point is that there are certain Pokémon that are, without a doubt, broken. Kyogre is broken. Groudon is broken. Palkia is broken. Giratina is broken. Mewtwo is broken. These Pokémon are not simply "too good for the current OU metagame," they're too good for any metagame. Playing in the Ubers tier takes both the highest skill and the lowest skill to win out of any tier. What I mean is, Ubers is mostly a question of "who can get their broken 'mon to set up first?" so in that sense, if you set up your Swords Dance Arceus, you have a very high chance of winning. It is also a very high skilled game because you have to be able to stop your opponent from setting up their Uber 'mon before you by applying broken offensive and defensive pressure.
The Uber metagame is the most intense one we have to offer. It's fun, but mostly only because a lot of noobs play Uber with a team of five box-legendaries and Charizard, and they are just so much fun to demolish. Part of the job of Smogon and the people in Smogon is to make the game as fun as possible. You're right. We should have no tiers, because that is how the game is meant to be played. Everything should be "uber," because everything is broken when compared to something. But if we didn't have tiers, people wouldn't play the game. It wouldn't be fun if there wasn't some way that you could use whatever Pokémon you wanted. That's the whole reason for tiers in the first place. With them, every Pokémon has a chance to shine. If you let EVERY uber down into the OU metagame, then you would instantly be saying that every Pokémon besides Arceus and Kyogre isn't worth using. So long as Smogon wishes to maintain a tier system, then certain threats should always be banned. I'm sorry, but there's no way that Mewtwo should ever be OU.
On that note, whether or not Smogon should differentiate between OU and Uber is irrelevant. We do have an OU tier, and therefore our first priority should be to only allow things that the metagame can handle. Things like Darkrai, Skymin, Thundurus-I, Excadrill, Genesect, etc. were all only found to be broken upon testing in the current metagame. These are threats that should be retested, as they are not, in my opinion, objectively broken like some Ubers are, and some threats from XY might prove to be just the Pokémon we need to have a metagame in which they can be brought down. But it will take a little more, I think, to justify bringing things like Arceus, Kyogre, and Palkia down to OU.
Only time will tell what the rest of the OU community thinks.
I agree that nothing should be banned initially.
I think a large part of the problem at the beginning of Generation V was that everybody was incredibly excited and eager to play the new generation, which I think put a lot of the Smogon staff under pressure to have an initial banlist.
There was also a MASSIVE thread, which seems to be deleted now, but it was basically asking the community whether they wanted an initial banlist or not. From my recollection most people said they did want a banlist to start off with. A lot of the people that wanted one I remember saying they agreed with the concept of starting OU with no banlist, but they were concerned that they'd have to wait like 9 months before things started getting banned.
I think a middle ground would work best. As a community we could play for a short period of time (e.g. 2 weeks) so we can get a better idea of what would make a good initial banlist, but also it's a short enough period of time that people won't get stressed out about "waiting" for the "real" OU metagame to start. 2 weeks seems short, but I don't think it'd take very long for us to recognize what is THAT broken that it ends on the initial banlist (Kyogre, etc.). I know there have definitely been some discussions on here about whether Ho-oh should really have been Ubers this generation for example. It was probably the right decision, but we don't really know for sure clearly. Smogon have definitely improved with their banlists over the years in my opinion, but it would be great if in Generation VI we can be confident as a community that everything banned actually deserved it.
I think a large part of the problem at the beginning of Generation V was that everybody was incredibly excited and eager to play the new generation, which I think put a lot of the Smogon staff under pressure to have an initial banlist.
There was also a MASSIVE thread, which seems to be deleted now, but it was basically asking the community whether they wanted an initial banlist or not. From my recollection most people said they did want a banlist to start off with. A lot of the people that wanted one I remember saying they agreed with the concept of starting OU with no banlist, but they were concerned that they'd have to wait like 9 months before things started getting banned.
I think a middle ground would work best. As a community we could play for a short period of time (e.g. 2 weeks) so we can get a better idea of what would make a good initial banlist, but also it's a short enough period of time that people won't get stressed out about "waiting" for the "real" OU metagame to start. 2 weeks seems short, but I don't think it'd take very long for us to recognize what is THAT broken that it ends on the initial banlist (Kyogre, etc.). I know there have definitely been some discussions on here about whether Ho-oh should really have been Ubers this generation for example. It was probably the right decision, but we don't really know for sure clearly. Smogon have definitely improved with their banlists over the years in my opinion, but it would be great if in Generation VI we can be confident as a community that everything banned actually deserved it.
Personally I would also like to see a Ghost/ Steel type.
Next, I would like Eevee to get some new "Eevolutions". I would like to see Ground, Ghost, and Steel the most this gen if they did make more. Give the Ground one an ability like Sand Rush or Sand Force, I think that would be kind of cool as long as it had a good move pool and its stats where in the "right place" so to speak. As for the Ghost one, maybe an ability like Curse Body or Magic Guard? I'm not sure if there is an ability that would suit it best that currently exists, so maybe they will make a new ability or something. As for the Steel one, I would like this thing to be a lot like Umbreon but more physically based. I think if you just switch Umbreon's Sp.Def and Def it would be fine imo. Maybe an ability like Sturdy or something? Again, I don't think there is a current ability that best suits it, but maybe they will make more who knows! I'm very excited for 6th gen!
Next, I would like Eevee to get some new "Eevolutions". I would like to see Ground, Ghost, and Steel the most this gen if they did make more. Give the Ground one an ability like Sand Rush or Sand Force, I think that would be kind of cool as long as it had a good move pool and its stats where in the "right place" so to speak. As for the Ghost one, maybe an ability like Curse Body or Magic Guard? I'm not sure if there is an ability that would suit it best that currently exists, so maybe they will make a new ability or something. As for the Steel one, I would like this thing to be a lot like Umbreon but more physically based. I think if you just switch Umbreon's Sp.Def and Def it would be fine imo. Maybe an ability like Sturdy or something? Again, I don't think there is a current ability that best suits it, but maybe they will make more who knows! I'm very excited for 6th gen!
A Sableye evolution. Maybe a couple new eeveelutions. I'd like to point out though, that not everything needs to evolve, sometimes not evolving helps keep things unique and different. I'd personally rather not see Skarm/Forre evolve, and tbh if they were going to evolve it would have happened a long time ago (like when Gligar got it's gliscor evolution). I'd also like to point out that it is probably more likely that newer pokemon have a greater chance of getting an evolution. Things like Cryogonal (ice/steel?), Durant (good lord, we really don't need another bug/steel, but hey it could get one), or Stunfisk could really end up shining with the proper upgrade.
Agreed on Skarm and Forre not evolving. Skarm with Eviolite would be OP like crazy, and Forre, though not to the same degree, would also be very hard to defeat. Stunfisk on the other had is prime for and evolution, and it would give it a nice niche with eviolite, though I don't think it would be enough to get the fish out of NU.
I've been wanting a Stunfisk evo since I first started playing with it. My feelings about fisk are second to none. <3
And I was just looking through Mismagius's movepool last night, and I want Technician Mismagius. It probably wouldn't be significantly better than it is now, don't get me wrong. But Mismagius has so many viable moves at or under 60BP. Ominous Wind would easily replace Shadow Ball (unless of course you don't care for the 8PP). Magical Leaf, Shock Wave, Icy Wind, a 60BP Hidden Power. A 90BP Special Fighting move would certainly be appreciated. Would easily be the only decent special Technician user (Roserade is awful with it, and I think Mr. Mime gets it iirc). I dunno. Not necessarily super competitive, but I think it could be cool. :)
And I was just looking through Mismagius's movepool last night, and I want Technician Mismagius. It probably wouldn't be significantly better than it is now, don't get me wrong. But Mismagius has so many viable moves at or under 60BP. Ominous Wind would easily replace Shadow Ball (unless of course you don't care for the 8PP). Magical Leaf, Shock Wave, Icy Wind, a 60BP Hidden Power. A 90BP Special Fighting move would certainly be appreciated. Would easily be the only decent special Technician user (Roserade is awful with it, and I think Mr. Mime gets it iirc). I dunno. Not necessarily super competitive, but I think it could be cool. :)
Pokemon that should, in my opinion, get evolutions:
Jynx
Marrowak
Pinsir
Dunsparce
Chatot
Pachirisu (the poor guy needs this, guys)
Stunfisk
Torkoal
Mawile
Pokemon that should NEVER get evolutions:
Farfetch'd (the whole point is that he's a sitting duck! He's supposed to suck!)
Relicanth (his main thing is that he's never changed in thousands of years)
Skarmory
Shuckle
Pokemon that deserve baby forms:
Lapras
Tauros/Miltank
Throh/Sawk
Tropius
There're probably more, I'll edit them in if I think of them.
Jynx
Marrowak
Pinsir
Dunsparce
Chatot
Pachirisu (the poor guy needs this, guys)
Stunfisk
Torkoal
Mawile
Pokemon that should NEVER get evolutions:
Farfetch'd (the whole point is that he's a sitting duck! He's supposed to suck!)
Relicanth (his main thing is that he's never changed in thousands of years)
Skarmory
Shuckle
Pokemon that deserve baby forms:
Lapras
Tauros/Miltank
Throh/Sawk
Tropius
There're probably more, I'll edit them in if I think of them.
Truth be told, while I'm excited for the in-game fun I'm likely to have with X/Y, I'm actually a bit scared for what it might do to OU. I'm someone who wound up quitting OU around the time Genesect was running rampant, and while I have attempted to play it since its banning, I just can't get invested before going to a lower tier or Ubers and having a significantly more noticeable amount of fun. As a somewhat indirect result, not knowing what Gen VI is going to do to OU, or the competitive environment as a whole, is terrifying to me, and I don't know if Game Freak's decisions will make the situation better or worse. Of course, it also depends on what we decide to allow in OU, but we won't know what we'll do nor what will come until later.
To be honest, it may just be the comparatively short gaps between generations talking, but I don't think Gen V ever had a time to completely crystallize its metagame between the Dream World (Drizzle/Drought), the release of BW2 (Hidden Grottoes, Keldeo, Kyurem-B/W, Therian Formes), and events (Victini, full stop). Moreover, we still have plenty of time for the rest of the known DW abilities to be released, and some of them could POTENTIALLY have a significant impact (Shadow Tag Chandelure, Lightningrod Zapdos). God only knows what else they could release alongside them in events (ExtremeSpeed Genesect being the most likely thing I can think of at this juncture).
I think right now, all I'll ask of Gen VI is a clear way to distinguish itself from Gen V, IV, and all others before it. Hopefully in a less chaotic way than Gen V.
To be honest, it may just be the comparatively short gaps between generations talking, but I don't think Gen V ever had a time to completely crystallize its metagame between the Dream World (Drizzle/Drought), the release of BW2 (Hidden Grottoes, Keldeo, Kyurem-B/W, Therian Formes), and events (Victini, full stop). Moreover, we still have plenty of time for the rest of the known DW abilities to be released, and some of them could POTENTIALLY have a significant impact (Shadow Tag Chandelure, Lightningrod Zapdos). God only knows what else they could release alongside them in events (ExtremeSpeed Genesect being the most likely thing I can think of at this juncture).
I think right now, all I'll ask of Gen VI is a clear way to distinguish itself from Gen V, IV, and all others before it. Hopefully in a less chaotic way than Gen V.
I don't see a problem with an initial banlist
Because it doesn't matter how much you can argue about "hurr but that's not how Smogon tiering process works" and shit, Kyogre and friends were designed to be broken as hell, and they'll always be.
Others like Darkrai, Skymin, Genesect, Manaphy are just "accidentally" broken, they can be tested (but I really doubt that Skymin will ever be OU, with that retarded speed, spA and hax)
Because it doesn't matter how much you can argue about "hurr but that's not how Smogon tiering process works" and shit, Kyogre and friends were designed to be broken as hell, and they'll always be.
Others like Darkrai, Skymin, Genesect, Manaphy are just "accidentally" broken, they can be tested (but I really doubt that Skymin will ever be OU, with that retarded speed, spA and hax)
I agree. I think one of the biggest issues with this generation was how so much was gradually released. If everything had been available from the start, I can almost guarantee you it would be significantly different right now.
I really hope that when gen VI comes out, that their DW abilities (and I'd say it's a pretty certain thing that there will be) come out all at once, or at worst, in 2 well defined waves.
I think in Gen 6 shouldn´t be team preview because it´s more fun without and it needs an other playstyle. With team preview you see your opponents team and you can start thinking how to work around to win and which pokes you need and which you can fodder. Without team preview you have to decide if you reveal a poke early in game or if you fodder a poke or set up yet when you don´t know your opponents whole team and you have to be more careful in general .
ATM I'm seeing talk of unbanning Ho-oh, Reshiram, Lugia, and Giratina-O...what??? They are completely & thoroughly broken as has been the case for a long time, I sincerely doubt that gen VI's changes will be so drastic that they'll make these mons look even somewhat manageable. I get the "unban ho-oh its 4x sr weak" argument which has been around forever, even though it's pretty dumb and anyone who thinks Ho-oh wouldn't be broken most likely needs their head examined. I also get the "free Lugia" argument even though I disagree with it. I can even understand wanting to unban Reshiram even though I think it's absolutely retarded. However, what on earth compels anyone to want an unbanning of Giratina-O, of all things? I'm not a mod in this forum so I can't exactly lay down any restrictions, but I think that if you want to propose unbanning a mon that the majority of users consider overpowered, you should have an argument for it other than "i want to abuse broken shit in OU (which usually, not in this case, has a hidden message at the end that goes "because i can't actually win the majority of my games without a massive advantage"), which Scarfwynaut pretty much said. Also lol at Rayquaza_ saying that he's "not going to take their current tier placement seriously"....who do you think you are?
I swear, some of you people are so anti-ban that you'd be ok with Mewtwo or Rayquaza in OU!
btw our goal is to make the most competitive metagame, obviously the less bans the better but not wanting a large banlist is not an excuse for not banning broken things, which I've seen more times than I can count over the course of this generation.
This being said, I hate BW(2) with a fiery passion (seriously it could potentially be a great metagame if we got out of this stupid "instead of banning a few things for a better metagame lets ban nothing & get a shitty metagame" mentality), so I'm very excited for the new gen.
I swear, some of you people are so anti-ban that you'd be ok with Mewtwo or Rayquaza in OU!
btw our goal is to make the most competitive metagame, obviously the less bans the better but not wanting a large banlist is not an excuse for not banning broken things, which I've seen more times than I can count over the course of this generation.
This being said, I hate BW(2) with a fiery passion (seriously it could potentially be a great metagame if we got out of this stupid "instead of banning a few things for a better metagame lets ban nothing & get a shitty metagame" mentality), so I'm very excited for the new gen.
We desperately need a fresh start like R/S, meaning you can't transfer anything from previous generations. This would be the fourth gen in a row that movepools/tutors/TMs/items/etc have stacked over each other and it's only making the game stale, less balanced and more offensively oriented. With a new set of smaller movepools and maybe even an overhaul of available items, there'll be room to bring back more simplicity that made ADV and DPP really fun and competitive games. Same goes for presumably the removal of DW abilities, while perma-weather was an interesting change of pace I don't think it belongs in OU in the long run.
Some major mechanic changes are about due as well. B/W was disappointingly just DPP with new bells and whistles, instead of introducing mechanics that completely change the way the game is played (EVs, natures, abilitites, physical/special split). So I'd really like some big changes not just for balance reasons but also to bring back that fresh and exciting feeling.
And regarding intitial banlists, yeah of course we need one, but I'm hoping people have realised that after BW's initial suspect tests. Anyone that wants Arceus (lol), Kyogre, Groudon and Mewtwo running around in what's supposed to be a balanced and desirable metagame is kidding themselves.
Some major mechanic changes are about due as well. B/W was disappointingly just DPP with new bells and whistles, instead of introducing mechanics that completely change the way the game is played (EVs, natures, abilitites, physical/special split). So I'd really like some big changes not just for balance reasons but also to bring back that fresh and exciting feeling.
And regarding intitial banlists, yeah of course we need one, but I'm hoping people have realised that after BW's initial suspect tests. Anyone that wants Arceus (lol), Kyogre, Groudon and Mewtwo running around in what's supposed to be a balanced and desirable metagame is kidding themselves.
I would like to remind the people posting in this thread that the idea that I proposed was to start the Generation VI metagame with all Übers and cover legendary Pokémon unbanned, not just a select few of them, and ban any overcentralizing Pokémon in such a metagame only through suspect testing. Discussions about the advantages and disadvantages of the specific movement of Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Lugia, Giratina, or possibly other Übers by themselves into the current OU metagame are not relevant to the message I have posted.
If you move a single, or just a select few Übers into the current OU metagame, then OF COURSE they are going to be broken. What do you expect by tacking onto the OU metagame a bunch of Pokémon that are clearly better than the rest? What I wish to see, which everyone who has replied to my post appear to have missed, is the movement of all Übers into OU at the start of Generation VI, and achieve a balance in the new OU metagame specifically as a result of all of these former Übers simultaneously existing in the OU metagame, creating a situation such that none of those former Übers are particularly powerful compared to every other Pokémon in the metagame, and if any is found to be so (such as Arceus), then it should be suspect tested.
If you move a single, or just a select few Übers into the current OU metagame, then OF COURSE they are going to be broken. What do you expect by tacking onto the OU metagame a bunch of Pokémon that are clearly better than the rest? What I wish to see, which everyone who has replied to my post appear to have missed, is the movement of all Übers into OU at the start of Generation VI, and achieve a balance in the new OU metagame specifically as a result of all of these former Übers simultaneously existing in the OU metagame, creating a situation such that none of those former Übers are particularly powerful compared to every other Pokémon in the metagame, and if any is found to be so (such as Arceus), then it should be suspect tested.
So what you're saying is.
We should turn Ubers into OU, and, as a result; OU into UU, UU into RU, RU into NU and NU into PU.
How will this accomplish anything, really?
For Arbok, I'd rather have a Dark / Poison Evo, and it should get Gunk Shot (Spitting Cobra).
What do these two types have in common? Sheer Force compatible Physical STAB attacks.
So something like:
Dark / Poison
90 / 105 / 63 / 95 / 95 / 107
Sheer Force
-Crunch
-Gunk Shot
-Fire Blast
-Coil
Gunk Shot would work beautifully with Coil, and Coil could in turn help Fire Blast, and of course give Crunch a nice little boost too. All of them could get a leg up from Sheer Force.
What do these two types have in common? Sheer Force compatible Physical STAB attacks.
So something like:
Dark / Poison
90 / 105 / 63 / 95 / 95 / 107
Sheer Force
-Crunch
-Gunk Shot
-Fire Blast
-Coil
Gunk Shot would work beautifully with Coil, and Coil could in turn help Fire Blast, and of course give Crunch a nice little boost too. All of them could get a leg up from Sheer Force.
Houndoom evolving would still be cooler than anything else imo :P
ie:
100/115/110+ offensive spread (atk/spatk/speed) and suddenly we have a new OU worthy pursuit trapper for all the psychics running rampant in OU.
Or lets evolve quagsire by giving it approximately +15 in SpDef and +15 in SpAtk and giving minimal increases in other stats and we have a new bulky water/ground that will be remarkably hard to pull down.
Finally what about making another pokemon viable: Parasect to evolve and gain its most significant stats in atk -> a new viable rain tank that can deal some damage as well. ie a 80/110/95/65/95/55 spread (with movepool additions of earthquake and power whip OR megahorn) would be more then enough to frustrate the plethora of special attackers that enjoy rain, by giving it no useful rock/electric/ice attacks, you keep flying types as its #1 counter
ie:
100/115/110+ offensive spread (atk/spatk/speed) and suddenly we have a new OU worthy pursuit trapper for all the psychics running rampant in OU.
Or lets evolve quagsire by giving it approximately +15 in SpDef and +15 in SpAtk and giving minimal increases in other stats and we have a new bulky water/ground that will be remarkably hard to pull down.
Finally what about making another pokemon viable: Parasect to evolve and gain its most significant stats in atk -> a new viable rain tank that can deal some damage as well. ie a 80/110/95/65/95/55 spread (with movepool additions of earthquake and power whip OR megahorn) would be more then enough to frustrate the plethora of special attackers that enjoy rain, by giving it no useful rock/electric/ice attacks, you keep flying types as its #1 counter
I really like this idea cause I find Ubers to be a much more diverse and balanced metagame than OU. You can honestly use just about any team type and strategie you could possibly want. From HO to Stall, with just about everything inbetween like Soft Stall and Screens Offense. Heck, even Baton Pass just gained Minimize Drifblim to make it more viable. Hail is the only team type I have yet to seen pulled off successfully (there is probably one somewhere). Yeah, Kyogre and Arceus are major threats and the former has been having the highest usage in the tier since its birth (there may some exceptions I'm missing) but they all have answers to them that are very viable themselves and easy to fit onto teams. They may be centralizing but they aren't causing such massive head-aches on team building that you wish they didn't exist. (think Scizor in OU) There may not be as large a diversity of Pokemon as there is in OU (I'm so sure about this though) but almost every Pokemon has 3-4 viable sets as well as some OO sets that just need the right team to work beautifully and show that they are more than just gimmicks (I got my butt kicked by a TWave Mewtwo once).
To sum it up, Ubers is a tier that, although limited in viable Pokemon, is the most diverse in terms or play styles and team types and the most open to creativity. (based on my own experiences in it, at least)
As far as suspect testing, I'm not even sure anything would need to be banned in Ubers if it became OU. (You can only use Arceus at one time and most of the formes are checked by the same things) I don't really care what happens to the former OU and below, I'd assume they just be built around usage like the current lower tiers are.
(And no, I'm far from having an anti-ban philosophy. I believe that the right limitations allow for the most creativity in play which is ideal if a game is meant to be a battle of wits and personality. Ubers just happens to have all those right limitations in it naturally, IMO.)
lol. We haven't even tested half those Pokemon. And Game Freak "design" a lot of Pokemon to be amazing, and they fail. And other Pokemon Game Freak probably didn't design to be very good have turned out to be amazing.
What you are saying about OU is exactly what people were saying a few years ago when we decided to unban everything from BL in generation IV. It was "We can't have Raikou, Heracross, Shaymin and Milotic in UU. Those Pokemon are too strong, UU is meant to be for Pokemon like Scyther and Clefable". It turned out to be okay in the end, because ultimately when you have like 30 Pokemon that are "too strong" dropping down, they all balance each other out. A small number of Pokemon had to be banned in the end (I think about 5-10), compared to the initial BL banlist which had I think about 30-40 pokemon on it.
I don't know why it's such a big deal. If Ho-oh is truly broken like you believe, it'd get banned.
Well, he's not saying he wants no initial banlist next time because "Ubers is better than OU". It's just because it's the best way to get the smallest OU banlist.
How do you know the likes Groudon would be broken in Generation VI? Have you played the metagame yet?
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