Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

[MMII]

Yeah, I picked up on that but my point kinda ties in at the same time as the idea behind an initial ban list is that cover legends are way too OP to have a balanced metagame with them so we might as well have an intial banlist. Current Ubers goes to show that this isn't true as it is arguably more balanced and we would have had a (arguably) lot less hassle in the suspect testing process if we just let them stay.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Yeah, I picked up on that but my point kinda ties in at the same time as the idea behind an initial ban list is that cover legends are way too OP to have a balanced metagame with them so we might as well ban them up front. Current Ubers goes to show that this isn't true as it is arguably more balanced and we would have had a lot less hassle if we just let stay up front.

Well yeah. Back in RBY Mewtwo was leagues ahead of everything else in strength, especially because of Amnesia. To beat it you'd literally either have to get Electrode to T-wave it, and then bring physical attackers in an hope it's fully paralyzed every turn. Or use Chansey and spam Ice Beam and hope to freeze Mewtwo (Pokemon don't defrost naturally in RBY, so freezing Mewtwo is essentialy KO'ing it, you can only defrost if it switches in on a fire move).

However, travel forward 15 years, and there's countless Pokemon with BSTs of 600+ now. More and more get introduced every generation. There's plenty of stuff that could potentially compete with Mewtwo (we haven't played Gen VI yet, so we don't really know for sure). There's no problem, because if it's broken, then it gets banned, do people not understand that?

People said in Gen IV when we dropped everything out from BL that "So you're going to change UU to BL, and as a result NU will become UU. What will that accomplish?". As we all know, that absolutely did not happen at all. NU ended up completely different to the "old UU", and infact included some of the Pokemon that were on the initial BL list!!

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

Yeah, I picked up on that but my point kinda ties in at the same time as the idea behind an initial ban list is that cover legends are way too OP to have a balanced metagame with them so we might as well have an intial banlist. Current Ubers goes to show that this isn't true as it is arguably more balanced and we would have had a (arguably) lot less hassle in the suspect testing process if we just let them stay.

The problem lies in my last post (which noone seems to have actually read).

You unban all the Ubers into OU.

Now to play in OU, you either use the Ubers or you lose, so everyone uses the Ubers.

Everything that wasn't Uber drops below the cutoff and is dropped to UU.

Now old Ubers is the new OU and old OU is the new UU.

I don't see what this is going to accomplish. If you want to play with the Ubers, just play Ubers.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

The problem lies in my last post (which noone seems to have actually read).

You unban all the Ubers into OU.

Now to play in OU, you either use the Ubers or you lose, so everyone uses the Ubers.

Everything that wasn't Uber drops below the cutoff and is dropped to UU.

Now old Ubers is the new OU and old OU is the new UU.

I don't see what this is going to accomplish. If you want to play with the Ubers, just play Ubers.

No, that wouldn't happen. When all the BL Pokemon were unbanned in Generation IV, people thought what you said was going to happen. But at the end of everything, when the metagame properly settled down, the most used Pokemon was Venusaur, who was already in UU when everything was dropped down!

And your statement is "If you want to play with Ubers, just play Ubers" is wrong for two reasons. Firstly, nobody is suggesting this because we want to play with Ubers, that's not the point of this. Secondly, Ubers isn't a metagame. It's a banlist. Just like BL, it's not designed to be played. OU IS designed to be played.

 

[MMII]

Ubers uses a lot more than Ubers in their metagame. For example, Heracross and Bisharp are both UU yet they are very solid choices in Ubers as well as many others. Its not just a crapfest of Mewtwo vs Groundon vs Rayquaza.

Making Ubers OU does not mean that OU will be UU and so on so forth. The biggest reason behind this is the biggest appeal in putting Ubers in OU; OU is the standard metagame. This is significant as it is the metagame that the majority of the important tournaments are centered around and where just about every other metagame is born from. We can't even consider banning things in Ubers ATM as having a ban list for a ban list is silly. It's not just a problem of not being able to play ubers, it's a question of having the ideal metagame as our standard one. Right now, Ubers is, arguably, a far more diverse and balanced metagame than OU yet we are putting all our time and efforts in trying to cut off some members in OU to fix it. Even that is not enough as, without going on giant ban sprees, OU is still going to be very Offense inclined to the point that people are asking for more stall from gen VI. Are we going through all this hassle just to keep Mewtwo out of OU? I really hope not.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Here's a 70 page long thread that people should read about when we decided to have no initial banlist in Gen IV for UU: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40571

And here's "obi's proposal", which is what ends up being the main discussion point of the thread (this is EXACTLY the same as what we're discussing here, simply replace "BL" with "Ubers" and replace "UU" with "OU"): http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37694

People were bringing up exactly the same arguements in those threads as people are in this thread. And looking back, most of them were wrong.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

No, that wouldn't happen. When all the BL Pokemon were unbanned in Generation IV, people thought what you said was going to happen. But at the end of everything, when the metagame properly settled down, the most used Pokemon was Venusaur, who was already in UU when everything was dropped down!

And your statement is "If you want to play with Ubers, just play Ubers" is wrong for two reasons. Firstly, nobody is suggesting this because we want to play with Ubers, that's not the point of this. Secondly, Ubers isn't a metagame. It's a banlist. Just like BL, it's not designed to be played. OU IS designed to be played.

I still don't get your point.

You want to unban everything. Well there's a tier where everything is unbanned - and that's Ubers.

Just because the Uber banlist/tier/whatever has enough mons to create a stable metagame around them doesn't mean that metagame has to be OU!

And that Venusaur arguemnt is flawed. Venusaur was still a powerful pokémon on the same league as the BL ones. Do you really think the top OUs at the moment (Scizor, Politoed, Ferrothorn and such) will get stay at the top if you Ogre, Arceus, Gira and such get unbanned?

EDIT:

I want to move all BL Pokemon into UU. From there, Pokemon that prove to be worthy of banning would be banned to BL. It's entirely possible that we end up with the same tiers we have now, just highly unlikely, because I suspect there is a decent balance point in there somewhere. I am not for removing BL as a tier, and in fact, it is necessary. Under my plan, BL would just likely be a lot smaller. The quality of Pokemon in UU would shift up, thus allowing more Pokemon at the bottom of UU to drop off into NU (and its BL / uber tier, which is as yet unnamed). This raises the quality of the NU tier as well (which is one of my main problems with ADV UU, it's horrible for competitive play if strategy in team building is a desirable trait).

In other words, I'd empty out BL, but then slowly add Pokemon back to it, but this would be based primarily on actual playtesting, not "I think Pokemon X is too strong!".

This is obi's proposal.

Now to play in OU, you either use the Ubers or you lose, so everyone uses the Ubers.

Everything that wasn't Uber drops below the cutoff and is dropped to UU.

Now old Ubers is the new OU and old OU is the new UU.

This is what I said.

Can you see the resemblance?

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I still don't get your point.

You want to unban everything. Well there's a tier where everything is unbanned - and that's Ubers.

Just because the Uber banlist/tier/whatever has enough mons to create a stable metagame around them doesn't mean that metagame has to be OU!

And that Venusaur arguemnt is flawed. Venusaur was still a powerful pokémon on the same league as the BL ones. Do you really think the top OUs at the moment (Scizor, Politoed, Ferrothorn and such) will get stay at the top if you Ogre, Arceus, Gira and such get unbanned?

Firstly, I'm suggesting to do this for Generation VI. It's too late to do anything for this generation imo.

Secondly, OU wouldn't be the same as Ubers. I don't think you realize that we'd still ban anything that was broken in the end. Mewtwo would still get banned and put into Ubers if it was broken.

And nobody thought Venusaur was on the same league as the BL ones at the time. That's why it wasn't put on the list in the first place. It was a big surprise to everybody that it got as popular as it did (although it was helped a lot by Roserade rising to OU and getting Power Whip from Platinum).

 

[MMII]

No, I don't want to unban everything, I want the most diverse, balanced, and creative metagame to be the standard metagame. Right now, that metagame is starring us in the face as a ban list called Ubers yet we refuse to acknowledge for what seems to be a paranoia of the presence of Mewtwo, Kyogre, and friends.

Edit: Although, I do agree with shuckle that it is too late to make Ubers OU in gen V. At least we can try to avoid making the same mistake when Gen VI rolls around. (Ubers has been getting more and more diverse each new generation so odds are Gen VI will just make a no ban even more appealing. However, nothing says we can't ban anything new or old that does break the metagame.)

Edit 2: No, the new UU wouldn't be the old OU. Ferrothorn, for example, gets very high usage in the current Ubers metagame which means that if Ubers became OU, Ferrothorn would be too popular to be UU and we all know that just having him gone would cause major changes to the former OU meta.

 

[BKC]

I don't know why it's such a big deal. If Ho-oh is truly broken like you believe, it'd get banned.

Why do we even need to test it if we know it's broken already? It's a waste of time that overshadows the real suspects who we aren't sure on yet, which is a problem we encountered this gen [Exhibit A: look how long it took us to ban Excadrill].

Well, he's not saying he wants no initial banlist next time because "Ubers is better than OU". It's just because it's the best way to get the smallest OU banlist.

Why are you people so concerned with having as little bans as possible lol...would you rather have a shitty metagame with not-so-many bans [BW2 OU] or a potentially good metagame with a few more bans [which is what BW2 OU could be, but we'll never know because we allow broken shit just for the sake of "having a smaller banlist"]?

How do you know the likes of Groudon would be broken in Generation VI? Have you played the metagame yet?

"How do you know the likes of Groudon wouldn't be broken in Generation VI? Have you played the metagame yet?"

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

EDIT:

This is obi's proposal.



This is what I said.

Can you see the resemblance?

Nope. That's different. He's saying there'd be a power creep in UU and NU, which was correct. You're saying "UU will become OU", which is incorrect, and is the sort of thing you'd hear on Serebiiforums: http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?310562-Smogon-s-great-idea-(Sarcastic)

After we followed Obi's proposal, the new NU did contain some Pokemon from "old UU", and even some from BL turned out not even to be useful enough to make the UU cut-off in the end. I can find the usage stats and old tier lists for you if you want. I'm being dead serious about some of the Pokemon that were auto-banned from UU dropping all the way to NU.

And for the record, I'm not against bans at all. I want things to be banned if they are broken. I just mean initially, on the day we start playing Gen VI, I think we should start with nothing banned, even if the first "test" period is really short like 2 weeks or something. It's possible plenty of things will get banned anyway and we could still have a sizeable Ubers list. Or maybe only 1 or 2 things will need to be banned. Who knows?

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

"How do you know the likes of Groudon wouldn't be broken in Generation VI? Have you played the metagame yet?"

I don't know if Groudon is broken or not. That's why it should be tested, and not auto-banned for Generation VI.

Why do we even need to test it if we know it's broken already? It's a waste of time that overshadows the real suspects who we aren't sure on yet, which is a problem we encountered this gen [Exhibit A: look how long it took us to ban Excadrill].

We haven't played Gen VI yet. We don't have a clue what is broken.

I know that it might take a long time, and that was a main concern of people last time. I suggested a really short initial test period, maybe as short as 2 weeks, before the first round of bans, since I'm aware everybody wants to get moving quickly.

 

[Habitus]

Why are you people so concerned with having as little bans as possible lol...would you rather have a shitty metagame with not-so-many bans [BW2 OU] or a potentially good metagame with a few more bans [which is what BW2 OU could be, but we'll never know because we allow broken shit just for the sake of "having a smaller banlist"]?

I think most of them are arguing would you rather have a shitty metagame with not-so-many bans [BW2 OU] or a potentially good metagame with even less bans [which is what BW2 OU could be]

Which is just as valid as your argument, as 'potentially good metagame' is basically an opinion until its actually tested.

Do i think no ban list will end up with a good balanced metagame gen VI, yes, do i think think starting with a ban list will end up with a good balanced metagame, yes. They even may end up with the same metagame, but nobody at the moment can say which would be the better metagame, or the easiest/fastest to balance.

 

[Uvood]

I do think it's kinda flawed comparing BL to the ubers metagame. These are Uberz we are talking about, Pokemon that easily outclass everything that exists in OU. Why would I use ''insert Dragon type'', when I could use Rayquaza, Palkia, Dialga, Soul Dew Lati@s, Reshy and Zek? Why would I use ''insert special sweeper'', when I could use Mewtwo? All these Pokemon easily outclass anything within the OU tier, and in their own tier (where OU pokemon are allowed), almost only uberz are used (with few exceptions having specific niches). Why? Because they are the best choice. There is no point in using anything else, and, despite using Ubers against Ubers being balanced, many Pokemon would end being neglected. So, like Clubbing says, I can see OU simply becoming Ubers, not some kind of diverse new metagame, because the diversity would be in a select few Pokemon. I saw the example of UU Pokes being used in Uberz, but the only reason they are is because they work specifically against Uber Pokemon, not OU Pokemon.

Basically, Uber Pokemon would just end up replacing everything that would no longer be worth using. Speculation, of course, but then again, so is the whole unbanning balancing things out thing.

Don't misunderstand though, I'm not for or against the having no banlist, I just think comparing BL Pokemon to ubers is crazy, when these are obviously stronger than the majority of OU Pokemon.

 

[Frog]

I think B2W2 OU is a great metagame, better once tornadus-t is banned. Its playability is comprable to HGSS OU.

 

[haunter]

The concept of "good metagame" is entirely subjective. According to what Gen VI brings to the table we might start with an initial banlist, much like we did at the beginning of Gen V, or (unlikely) with no banlists at all.

Also, to answer this question:

Why are you people so concerned with having as little bans as possible

it's clearly stated in Smogon's Philosophy that

Smogon attempts to avoid bans as much as possible—only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokémon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena. Many legendary Pokémon are very balanced within the realm of standards and open up new options for players, who value any option to avoid staleness.

Please do not derail the topic of this thread to a discussion about tiering policies. Thanks.

 

[MakaiMai]

You know, I wasn't around for it, and this is somewhat unrelated, but why was Venomoth deemed BL2? I know it can Quiver Pass, but was that too much for the tier?

Offering some insight into potentially letting defensive Ubers into Gen VI OU; look at Deoxys-D. Gen III and IV, it was Uber, but in Gen V, it hit UU at one point, and it isn't an overcentralizing presence in the current OU metagame, last I checked. (As stated previously, I haven't been playing OU recently, but when I was, I wasn't seeing it very often.) Testing other defensive behemoths doesn't seem too far-fetched to me come Gen VI.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

You know, I wasn't around for it, and this is somewhat unrelated, but why was Venomoth deemed BL2? I know it can Quiver Pass, but was that too much for the tier?

If I remember correctly, it's because it can QuiverPass, abuse the boosts itself (with Tinted Lens) and also gets sleep powder. QD/BP/Sleep Powder/Bug Buzz functions like Smeargle would, except that Venomoth has an usable 90 base SpA and Tinted Lens to hit stuff hard after a boost or two.

Offering some insight into potentially letting defensive Ubers into Gen VI OU; look at Deoxys-D. Gen III and IV, it was Uber, but in Gen V, it hit UU at one point, and it isn't an overcentralizing presence in the current OU metagame, last I checked. (As stated previously, I haven't been playing OU recently, but when I was, I wasn't seeing it very often.) Testing other defensive behemoths doesn't seem too far-fetched to me come Gen VI.

Deoxys-D is actually the face of Hyper-offense. It's a pokemon that can reliably get 2 layers of hazards up and prevent hazards from making it onto your side unless your opponent carries Band Ttar, Specs Zoroark or something else that can OHKO it (And it's not particularly easy!).

It's S-tier and AFAIK it may even be the next suspect.

%Usage isn't actually a good way to measure power. Infernape gets higher usage than Keldeo and we all know that it's mediocre at best, while Keldeo is amazingly powerful in this meta.

 

[G-Von]

So I have been reading through the comments on whether there should be an initial ban list of pokemon in OU or whether the tyrants of Ubers like Arceus and Kyogre should be allowed to play with the likes of Terrakion and Politoed. Truthfully speaking, the goal is to create the best metagame (balanced with multiple viable play-styles at one's disposal). The current OU metagame has been lacking in diversity for quite some time where players are complaining about too much weather is being used and only HO or balanced offense teams are viable and stall is dead. I would go as far as to say it is a fact that if there is no initial ban list, and pokemon deemed broken would then be suspected and possibly banned is the best way of achieving a desirable metagame. If we start off with an initial ban list, the question of "I wonder if this would actually help solve some problems the current metagame is having" would be asked about them. This process would take quite some time, but it would result in a metagame that everyone would enjoy.

I feel like players have also, for the lack there of a better word, been brainwashed into thinking that cover pokemon deserve an auto-ban. Shuckle Man has mentioned Giratina-O along the lines of possibly deserving an attempt at the OU metagame. At first thought, I thought it was ridiculous. After looking at it's stats, i have quickly grown to the idea that maybe it would be suitable in an OU environment because of it's low base 90 speed and ability to only hold it's signature item, the Grisceous Orb. It's too late to test it out in the BW2 metagame, but we can see how it performs in Gen VI along with other mons deemed broken this gen.

For the people claiming that if we had no ban list, than the OU of today would be the UU of tomorrow and so forth, that is not exactly true. Yes, some pokemon would suffer from the new additions to the tiers, but that happens every generation that comes in. Pokemon changes tiers based on what is brought upon each generation, whether it be new pokemon, moves, or abilities and if how they get altered. Some things in the lower tiers may see an increase in usage, for example, Swift Swimmers like Ludicolo, Kabutops, and Kingdra. Some pokemon would also simply stay in the same tiers as before.

If there was a very minor ban list made up of Arceus, Kyogre, Groudon, and Mewtwo to begin gen 6 though, I do not think a lot of people would complain. It's simply banning mons that have obvious hinders to itself that would make people they can be suitable in an OU metagame is what we would be avoiding until we realized that these mons or either broken or not, and I personally think that we should have at least a chance to have a hands on experience with it.

 

[Halcyon.]

So, to move this away from tiering as Haunter asked, what moves would you like to see given to current Pokémon? I mean, Charizard didn't get Fly until Yellow, and that just straight up doesn't make sense. Someone on the Orange Islands thread mentioned giving Mienshao Close Combat, which I think would be really cool. Personally, I want to see the Eeveelutions get better moves, ones that aren't necessarily their own type. Poor Jolteon gets such terrible coverage because he has to rely on the weak HP Ice. I would love it if he got Ice Beam, and possibly a fire type move too to rid himself of Ferrothorn once and for all. Speaking of which, part of me wants Ferrothorn to get rapid spin, but at the same time, I don't want him to completely outclass Forretress...

What about something like Dragon Dance/Quiver Dance Flygon? That could make him a relevant threat in OU, or a least make him a top threat in UU.

 

[Shurtugal]

I think Terrakion would be better with some better special move coverage so we could all try out the CM variant! Maybe a new special FB, without that miss rate! :D


If your part of the Anti-FB Movement Group you know what I mean :[

 

[Cherub Agent]

Just give me nasty plot mewtwo and i'll be on my way.

 

[IcyMan28]

There is no need to unban pokemon that are clearly overpowered. We do not need to test Kyogre, Groudon, Ray, Dialga, etc. Some are more borderline, namely Darkrai (who I believe was actually unbanned successfully in DW meta game, but I could be wrong) and any of the Ubers that aren't legendary.

Personally, I don't see Gira-O being too problematic. It differentiates itself with its bulk, but it otherwise has unremarkable speed, offenses frequently eclipsed by others in OU, and an item restriction. Maybe it's worth a shot idk

 

[Takion]

I personally want there to better special priority moves. I mean Vaccum Wave is fine but has no real competitive use. However, at the same time this scares me shitless too.

 

[ssbbm]

Just saying, if you want to see why Pokemon are banned, look at the current Uber metagame. The metagame contains barely any OU mons barring Ferrothorn and the majority of teams have at least 4 Ubers. And, if we aren't banning anything, then the metagame will basically be Ubers so...

I mean I guess we could play Ubers UU as OU but I don't see the point, personally.