Media One Piece (spoilers!)

[Chou Toshio]

We also don't see any evidence anywhere that says: "If you have strong Haki, you can 'negate' your opponents Haki-- thus allowing Logia to take Haki attacks in their element state as long as they have more Haki."

IMO, that's an even more farfetched, bigger assumption.

My theory only assumes that Logia users can reform/reconnect body parts-- which is a power they've actually been seen to have.

The above statement is assuming a function of Haki on which we have no basis to assume.

Most likely, there are some limitations on what the Logia can or cannot reform when their power is interrupted in various methods-- Smoker/Monet couldn't reform a new heart for instance.

However, when interrupted vary briefly, and taking on relatively minor haki-based attacks, Logia have been shown to be able to reform their bodies, just as for most blunt Haki attacks, Luffy's body has been shown to be able to bounce back from it-- though not negating the "damage" in either case.

@Alex-- discerning what is and isn't canon is always of importance in these discussions.



alternatively: We could just admit that most likely, there is are no ultimate set rules of Haki/DF physics, and all of these things will interact in a more organic way that will frequently be fudged and unexplained for the sake of maintaining plot-- (a precedent set by Marine Forde).

In all likely hood, this will be the case.

 

[some hero]

It's not "more" haki. It's better saying "stronger", "harder" or is more skilled at using it. We need to stop using the word "more" and try the word "harder".

So far we've seen two types of CoA. The invisible wall and the full body armor that turns the users body black. Now, imo the invisible wall is a stronger defense and is better used to defend against long range attacks or attacks that cover a large area. Offensively it doesn't do as much damage as the black version because it's basically a suit of armor. While, in this example, a punch with a fist covered in steel(CoA) does more damage than a regular punch, it still wouldn't do as much damage as a punch coming from a fist made out steel. Just replace steel with a magical energy in that example. But saying steel lets us visualize it. The black version of CoA isn't as good defensively because it turns the body hard. The body is still being hit. With the armor it needs to be broken for any damage to be dealt to the user. As seen when Luffy fought the Boa sisters and using logic. The black version probably makes attacks faster too. So both have their pros and cons.

As for the Haki vs Haki crap, it's difficult to say much when talking about Logias because we have no idea wether Kizaru and Aokiji used Haki to defend themselves or not. If they did, then Marcos Haki is hard enough to break through theirs. If they didn't use Haki to defend themselves... Them fuck the Admirals are gods.

Moving to Akainu though, it's obvious HE used Haki to defend himself. The problem though is how damn strong he is. It's very likely he is the only Logia in the series with a Haki mastery at a level where he can imbue his entire Logia body with a similar version of the black CoA. Making his magma body tougher than it should be otherwise. If CoA works like i think it should(a persons mastery over it and natural, predetermined affinity towards it, says how hard it is) then Marcos and Vistas attacks weren't hard enough to break through Akainus armor. All that hit him were the force. The problem here is that should Akainu have defended using the CoA invisible armor, the attacks wouldn't have sliced him at all. So more likely than not the dude can harden his logia body with his CoA in a similar way Vergo and Luffy do theirs. What does that mean? That his logia body is now a molten magma powered by CoA. Sort of like if before he was made out of liquid rock, now its liquid metal. Again, not saying he was ever rock or metal. Saying that his magma body has become tougher and hotter than it normally would.

Or he could just be using the black version of CoA to harden his logia body. And Marcos/Vistas attacks had no effect because their CoA weren't hard enough to break through. But since that CoA turns the actual body into some tough shit instead of creating an invisible shield, the attacks still hit Akainu. Which is why he was hit and undamaged. And realistically this is what happened and it's not that complicated if we look at it in terms of how hard everybodies CoA is. Just wanted to share my theory on Akainu :(

 

[tehy]

I guess i'm all right with reforming basic cuts.

I think I get it now, though. They're not really creating new skin and muscle. A slash just parts the skin and whatever in two, so a Logia user turns that into *whatever* and molds it back together.

Edit: Maybe they could survive being cut in half with the upper and lower body separating, but if you're cut in two symmetrical halves, so is your brain. Good luck having the presence of mind to reform after that.

As for the head thing, I really doubt he was cutting him with Haki. That's not really Dof's style anyhow-he's more the kind of guy like "oh hey look what I can do cutty cutty" then "i'll just come and cut your head off", even if he knew it wouldn't kill with Haki.

 

[some hero]

Eww don't be alright with that. Thats a terrible theory(sorry chou). Haki hits the real bodies of Logias wether they are standing still in human form or are in their element form. As seen when Vergo hit Smokers' uh er "smoke" and instead of cutting through it, Vergos hits were stopped as if hitting lots of mass. Haki doesn't negate DFs, so thats why Aokiji broke to pieces when Jozu hit him, but the damage they take stays and they cannot survive being cut in half by Haki as Chou says. Logias have no healing abilities and cannot "repair" their bodies if cut by Haki. Though we've never seen it, from everything we have seen a Logia user hit by Haki cannot let that attack go through their body AT ALL. As seen by Kizaru, Aokiji, Smoker and every single tine a Logia has been hit in the series.

When Logias are hit by haki, and as long as the Haki imbued body part is making contact, the receiving Logia users' real body is taking all the damage. And if it manages to cut through, it cuts through the REAL body. Not the logia body. And if its a wound big enough, say decapitation, the logia user would die. It's obvious DD didn't use Haki on Croc. It goes against every single other example of a logia user being hit by haki.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Nothing about Haki is obvious-- and you making statements that things are obvious just proves that you're not approaching the problem with a right head. Sorry, but all your theories/thinking are far more terrible than mine just because you make far more assumptions, and assume you're right too. I also explicitly point out in my propositions that they're "theory", or "concept"-- perhaps this is how it's working; I always phrase uncertain arguments as being uncertain. Your use of words like "definite" or "obvious" just proves you're being dumb. sorry-- but stop being dumb.

There is zero proof that your own Haki can block you from the effects of your opponent's Haki, in terms of being able to "touch" your opponent's "real body."

That's why it makes more sense that Haki users can always hit the "real body" of the foe, but that Logia's have a limited ability to reform/retach body parts hit by Haki attacks.


BTW-- I've never even thought of Busoshoku Haki literally making the body black, or whether it coloring or not coloring, being a different type-- the coloring is just for us as readers to "see" the Busoshoku haki that up until now we (including Luffy) weren't aware of. It's necessarily true (again, don't assume crap) that Luffy or Vergo's Haki literally looks different from all the busoshoku up until now-- it could very well be the same, just that Oda-sensei is coloring it so we know it's there.




Now, changing the subject to something much more meaningful and interesting than this moronic fruitless discussion to something more more interesting--

I just finished watching this One Piece Movie Z-- and boy it was awesome.

Just a splurge of fanboy-fanism in every way, shape and fashion. Great plot, characters, battles, art-- good shit; you guys should definitely look forward to the English subs.

Now, trouble with making movies like this canon is that you're trying to tell a story in 2 hours-- the result is that the strawhats (and other good guys) end up being way too weak at the beginning of the story and potentially too strong at the end of it.

Spoilers (about stuff that would totally fuck with our perceptions of "power"):

Hide

-Luffy's beats an old-gen veteran, former Marine Admiral who is set up as being as strong or stronger than the current admirals. He's set up to be from the same gen and as strong or stronger than Garp/Sengoku. Kizaru and Aokiji both see him as a legitimate threat.
(yes, Zetto does say, "man I've aged" when he loses, but Garp always says that crap too and we all know it's never stopped him from being ridiculous-- besides, Zetto fights basically even with Kizaru at the beginning of the movie)

-Luffy, while fighting an admiral+ class opponent, punches through and destroys a weapon made out of Sea Stone. I don't think I have to go into why that's all sorts of fucked up in terms of canon-- both because of the canon strength of sea stone, and the canon strength of Luffy.

I mean, Sea Stone is supposed to be the hardest substance on Earth or something-- if Robin couldn't get the hand cuffs off, she'd be stuck like that for life. Luffy being able to break it, especially while being a DF user, makes literally zero sense coming from previous canon. It would imply at least one of the following:
*Sea Stone is much weaker than previously advertised
*Luffy deserves WAY more credit than you guys are giving him (than again, Film Z Luffy's basically admiral level apparently)
*Sea Stone isn't nearly as powerful against DF users as previously advertised

-Franky destroys a squad of Pacifista with a single Franky Radical Beam-- seriously?

However, after watching the movie, I AM convinced that Aokiji's new character design, and his Ice leg, are canon.
(and no this doesn't go against my previous theory because I said the reformation abilities probably aren't infinite, and may depend on the severity of the attack)

Aokiji was pretty damn awesome in this movie btw. Even if this movie isn't canon, I'd like to think of this as legitimate character development for Aokiji.


Overall, it was pretty cool as a movie-- so much fanservice-- you almost WANT it to be canon it's so good.

However, this movie was clearly made specifically for fans of the Manga/Anime-- If you aren't a genuine OP fan, and just want to watch an anime movie, you will basically be lost. They really didn't try to do anything in the way of explaining the basics of the OP world for non-OP fans. If you're a fan, you'll jump right into everything-- if not, deal with it. That's the attitude there.

Anyway, check it out you guys-- This movie was pretty damn awesome. I hope someone makes English subtitles for it soon so you guys can all enjoy it fully. I would but... that would take hours and hours of time I don't have. ><

edit: Watch to the end, the animated kid-versions of the major characters is awesome :D

 

[X5Dragon]

I AM convinced that Aokiji's new character design, and his Ice leg, are canon

Thanks for the review I hear the remixes for the main series soundtracks are wicked!

Any back to haki, lets strike a middle ground. Haki will always allow to touch the real body of a DF user without disabling the users abilities. However if the DF user replies/blocks with haki then it will be like to pieces of armor clashing until one off them breaks.

DF user cannot reform if he is fatally injured or is unable to use powers for a variety of reasons. The nature of DFs is that they are turned on and off not for example Akainus body is literally magma inside his human form.

Edit: I don't think seastone is hard as say crystal or ponyglyph blocks, but if the DF user comes into prolonged contact withthem or in case of handcuffa in a crippling position they get drained as if they're drowning. Luffy should be able to punch sea stone weapons (did he use haki however ?) just like he punched that squid under the sea.

 

[Chou Toshio]

All of that is just speculation anyway.

-We have no proof that your Haki can block another person's Haki at all
-no proof that Akainu's Haki can keep his body as Lava when taking Marco's attack.
-We don't even have proof that busoshoku haki even interact with each other, beyond simply buffing the user's ATK/DEF

-We don't know any details about how Logia's reformation abilities work-- when they can or cannot use it. This isn't claymore, we have no account on the details of how they re-tach body parts or re-grow sections of body parts that were blasted to bits. ie. We don't know the limitations of reformation.

I'm inclined to say unless Oda explains, this stuff doesn't really matter. All we need to know is that Haki allows you to hurt DF users you otherwise wouldn't be able to hurt-- but that doesn't completely negate the defensive capabilities of their fruits.

Inversely, we know that Haki can potentially let you block some DF powers you otherwise wouldn't be able to block (Law's), but that doesn't mean just by having Haki you can negate the full offensive ability of the fruit.

Anything more specific than that is mere speculation, and honestly not that important.

However, not all DF powers are turn on/turn off. Luffy and Buggy have continuously activated powers for instance.





In any case, getting back to the movie-- spoiler or know, I'd like to highlight that Luffy BEATS an Admiral+ level character. This indicates:

-Luffy is a lot more bad ass than we thought
-We really should just completely ignore movies when it comes to guaging power
-^makes sense when we think that the +Toriko episodes set Luffy's crew at being ridiculously weak-- if it ain't canon, it doesn't fit into the whole measuring strength thing.

 

[TheValkyries]

Now, changing the subject to something much more meaningful and interesting than this moronic fruitless discussion to something more more interesting--

I don't know if I want to hope that this is intentional or if I want to kill you if it was.

 

[some hero]

There is zero proof that your own Haki can block you from the effects of your opponent's Haki, in terms of being able to "touch" your opponent's "real body."

It's a manga dude. Of course there is proof. Firstly, the Boa sisters proved Haki was just a really tough shield, breakable with a large amount of force. Now we jump to Akainu. Who showed the ability to be immune to CoA powered attacks. It could either be Akainu used his own CoA to protect himself(highly likely because CoA is just armor, no reason to think it doesn't interact with other peoples CoA) or Akainu has an unknown ability to be immune to most CoA users.


There is lots of proof, you choosing to ignore it completely is another story.

That's why it makes more sense that Haki users can always hit the "real body" of the foe, but that Logia's have a limited ability to reform/retach body parts hit by Haki attacks.

Right, when we have never seen a Logia do that before... How does that make any more sense? This crap about Logias goes against EVERY SINGLE example of a Logia being hit by Haki. It goes against everything we know about haki.

Once a Haki user hits a DF user, the damage bypasses ALL defenses given by the DF. It hits the real body and cannot be repaired. It's ludicrous to think about actually.

Also, Marco may not be a Logia but he does have the ability to recover from damage(unlike Logias). And even he can't entirely heal from a CoA hardened punch. When Garp punched Marco, it left a bruise on his right cheek. A bruise Oda smartly left on Marco throught the war. Oda has said Marco has limits, and it's clear he can't take powerful CoA attacks since his DF is unable to heal them. If Marco can't easily heal from being hit by CoA, again its stupid to think Logias turn into their element when hit by CoA.

Actually, since there is 0 evidence in the manga that says this, i have no idea why i am even arguing. At least i use common sense helped by manga pages. This theory of yours goes against everything we know with no evidence.

We don't know any details about how Logia's reformation abilities work-- when they can or cannot use it. This isn't claymore, we have no account on the details of how they re-tach body parts or re-grow sections of body parts that were blasted to bits. ie. We don't know the limitations of reformation.

I'm inclined to say unless Oda explains, this stuff doesn't really matter. All we need to know is that Haki allows you to hurt DF users you otherwise wouldn't be able to hurt-- but that doesn't completely negate the defensive capabilities of their fruits.

Uh yes we do. Logias have not been able to transform into their element when hit by Haki. CoA users do not hit anything but the real body of a logia IN EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE WE HAVE. Except in Akainus unique case.



Again, you ignoring the vast amount of evidence to create a theory that goes against everything we know is dumb.

 

[TheValkyries]

Page 11 and 12 of Chapter 690.

I could be fucking nuts, but... that looks like the Bamboo stick sliced through Smoker's smoke body, (Hits him in torso page 11, and is at the end of a follow through on page 12 with a smoke trail following the path), and then Smoker ends up lying on the floor completely NOT BIFURCATED AT ALL.

 

[Chou Toshio]

It's a manga dude. Of course there is proof. Firstly, the Boa sisters proved Haki was just a really tough shield, breakable with a large amount of force. Now we jump to Akainu. Who showed the ability to be immune to CoA powered attacks. It could either be Akainu used his own CoA to protect himself(highly likely because CoA is just armor, no reason to think it doesn't interact with other peoples CoA) or Akainu has an unknown ability to be immune to most CoA users.


There is lots of proof, you choosing to ignore it completely is another story.

There's no proof. Akainu hasn't shown to be immune. You are assuming rules of Haki physics that haven't been proven or explained. Stop being dumb.

Right, when we have never seen a Logia do that before... How does that make any more sense? This crap about Logias goes against EVERY SINGLE example of a Logia being hit by Haki. It goes against everything we know about haki.

We have seen Logia do this before-- Akainu's reforms after getting struck by Haki attacks. Aokiji reforms after getting struck by Jozu. Croc reforms after getting struck by DD (and no, you cannot prove that DD was or was not using Haki here-- that's part of what makes Haki so vague).

Plus the examples with non-logia users-- Luffy's body always "bouncing back" to its original shape after taking any Haki smashing-attack so far. Buggy's body re-attaching after getting slashed to bits by Mi-Hawk (again, we have no proof whether this was or wasn't a Haki attack).

Once a Haki user hits a DF user, the damage bypasses ALL defenses given by the DF. It hits the real body and cannot be repaired. It's ludicrous to think about actually.

no. The what's ludicrous is assuming only one right theory with unexplained fantasy power physics.

Also, Marco may not be a Logia but he does have the ability to recover from damage(unlike Logias). And even he can't entirely heal from a CoA hardened punch. When Garp punched Marco, it left a bruise on his right cheek. A bruise Oda smartly left on Marco throught the war. Oda has said Marco has limits, and it's clear he can't take powerful CoA attacks since his DF is unable to heal them. If Marco can't easily heal from being hit by CoA, again its stupid to think Logias turn into their element when hit by CoA.

Actually, since there is 0 evidence in the manga that says this, i have no idea why i am even arguing. At least i use common sense helped by manga pages. This theory of yours goes against everything we know with no evidence.

Your theories assume so much based on non-evidence. You are assuming functions of Haki no one in the manga has said to exist. (DF users being able to block the touch-real-body effect of the opponent's haki with their own haki)

If you know you have zero evidence, and you know it's silly to be arguing (especially from the presumed position you're right)-- stop arguing?

Uh yes we do. Logias have not been able to transform into their element when hit by Haki. CoA users do not hit anything but the real body of a logia IN EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE WE HAVE. Except in Akainus unique case.

Because Busoshoku haki users can always touch the real body, you're being ridiculous in assuming that effect can be stopped with your own haki.

Again, you ignoring the vast amount of evidence to create a theory that goes against everything we know is dumb.

Again, it is laughable what you call "evidence" when you are making assumptions at every corner. We don't know enough to say it "definitely" works this way or that-- and if you are bent that only your view could be right, then I can't possibly take you seriously.

If you couldn't tell by the curtness of this post, I've come to think everything you have to say about this is so laughable it's not worth entertaining this discussion.

I won't post any further on this topic, but you can choose to blow another gasket if you wish.

 

[Aldaron]

Can you guys stfu about haki. I might just infract you all. This is seriously horrendous "conversation."

Haki right now is vague, general, and unexplained. Speculating is fine for light conversation, but this passed light conversation about 10 posts ago...all these absolutist type statements and near ad hominem are not fine. Seriously stop ruining this thread...

Chou, question about Z, can you find out if the part Luffy punched was sea stone? I know (from reading summaries) that the mechanical arm's base had sea stone, but was that outer shell part actually specifically mentioned to be sea stone? I agree with you that it's kinda bad if Luffy was able to make an indentation into sea stone (though I guess maybe this is his transition into showing the power of haki???)

Also, I personally loved that Franky wrecked multiple post timeskip pacifista...means he is a legitimate option to battle one of BB's big 6 (BB, shiryu, catarina devon, san juan, basco shot, avallo pizarro) at the end ! Franky being close to the big 3 imo is good for the manga's development.

 

[Pernicious]

hmm, ok, putting aside haki for the moment...

do we really think that bb is going to be the big antagonist in the end?

i know that he's a legit antagonist at this point and i have to respect his powers and uh, resonance in terms of the story (2 DFs, one "D.", Yonkou status and had beef with Ace) but i just wish there were someone cooler or better or who directly opposed something Luffy stood for...BB just seems insane and dangerous but doesn't really set up a moral conflict. the number of times he has almost dies makes me lose respect for him, even though he has massive destructive potential. (i'll always be frustrated that whitebeard didn't just kill him/smash his head in in either of the 2 TIMES HE MANAGED TO HIT HIM [like what, this is always something that bothers me about any manga, including naruto -- it's usually so hard to even fucking touch the other person that if you're able to land a strike on them you should be able to kill them]) ....anyway, what about sakazuki?

i also feel like there should be a big kaidou fight.

and i'd love to see shanks battle someone!

 

[Chou Toshio]

Aldaron, the part that Luffy smashes is the claw/fist of the weapon-- is the part that Zetto specifically says is made out of Sea Stone.

ゼット：バトルスマッシャー能力者の弱点、海楼石でできたクローは力を奪い、その強力な火力でいっき叩き潰す。
Zetto: Battle Smasher... the weakness of "ability" users, this claw made from sea stone relieves them of theirs power, and with it's incredible thermal energy, smashes them to bits in an instant.

(note, when he says thermal power here, he just means that the weapon is thermal-powered, like it has a thermal-powered engine. However, the battle smasher does have heat/projectile based attack functions)

I thought the movie gave the impression that the whole weapon was made (or at least covered by) sea stone, however.

I've never thought of Franky as being too far behind the others honestly. He was strong enough and confident enough to go head-to-head with Luffy when they first met, and has only gotten stronger and stronger since. For some reason I just never thought of him as being so superior to the Pacifista-- because to me the Franky radical beam seems limited compared to their attacks, that have less charge time and can be fired from both hands. I guess Franky simply rejected speed/flexibility in his attacks to gain a LOT more power; though it's unfortunate he couldn't develop beam technology to do both.

 

[some hero]

hmm, ok, putting aside haki for the moment...

do we really think that bb is going to be the big antagonist in the end?

i know that he's a legit antagonist at this point and i have to respect his powers and uh, resonance in terms of the story (2 DFs, one "D.", Yonkou status and had beef with Ace) but i just wish there were someone cooler or better or who directly opposed something Luffy stood for...BB just seems insane and dangerous but doesn't really set up a moral conflict. the number of times he has almost dies makes me lose respect for him, even though he has massive destructive potential. (i'll always be frustrated that whitebeard didn't just kill him/smash his head in in either of the 2 TIMES HE MANAGED TO HIT HIM [like what, this is always something that bothers me about any manga, including naruto -- it's usually so hard to even fucking touch the other person that if you're able to land a strike on them you should be able to kill them]) ....anyway, what about sakazuki?

i also feel like there should be a big kaidou fight.

and i'd love to see shanks battle someone!

Dude, you'd rather have a final fight involving a guy we've never even seen? Instead of the dude who was first mentioned in like chapter 150ish and has been growing alongside Luffy the whole time?

I've said it many times and i'll say it again. Blackbeard is the perfect final villain because he is just a darker Luffy. Same personality, love for their Namakama, same dream and same crew style(a small group of rag tag weirdos and freaks). Blackbeard is just the dark side of Luffys dream. Instead of freedom he wants power though. He is the perfect final villain. Hell, I almost forgot, he is a D too. Probably the only D bad guy in the series. Which makes him that much more special.

 

[Chou Toshio]

God, I love how the marine Akainu runs looks like some kind mafia gang, with Akainu as the Mob boss. The Marine meeting in the movie makes them look like a bad-ass organized crime ring, even though they're the "authority". lol

 

[Pernicious]

yeah i guess it's also an opportunity for luffy to qualfy what exactly his fucking justification for becoming a pirate is because you can be sure bb will hit him with those kinds of q's

 

[TheValkyries]

Not surprised Franky is able to do that to the Pacifistas. I thought it was pretty clear that the Pacifistas were the measuring stick for timeskip power growth for the Strawhats. 1 Pacifista fucks their shit up at Shabondy pre-timeskip, and then they return 2 years later and each of the big three face and one-shot a Pacifista without the briefest thought. Basically Pacifistas are the post-timeskip grunts of the marines in the new world.

 

[X5Dragon]

It's kind of funny though when you think about it, Vega Punk's biological Dragon which he made years ago gave Luffy and Zoro so much crap while his latest cyborgs with futuristic technology didn't even bother the Strawhats.

Anyway, I think we should changing the name to the Monster Quattro, I mean Franky is by all means a powerhouse, dangerously closing in on Sanjis rank. Good thing that Sanji has haki and can develop further while Franky is reliant on his existing upgrades.

As for the "final boss"...nobody has been able to figure in the World Government and Revolutionaries into the equation. I mean sure BB might be the final villain standing against him for the OP, but I'm guessing when the Manga and the plot clear through the real villians would be the World Government.

Also we still don't know what Dragon meant when he said the world's power balance is shifting and that the revolutionary leaders from all over the world need to be grouped.

We saw on the cover story the revolutionaries lost against some Yonku force, could he be stepping in and eliminating a Yonku of his own to free the people? (Needs verification)

 

[some hero]

Oh man, not the legendary Strawhat power rankings... I don't want to be the instigator but there shouldn't be a Monster Quatro(?) as the difference between Sanjee and Franky is too big(imo). Also even when Jinbei joins he shouldn't be as strong as Sanjee...

But again, thats all my opinion. And yes Franky is still my favorite Strawhat. Hes just too limited right now.

 

[Chou Toshio]

My guess is that finding One Piece won't be the conclusion-- on the contrary, WB implies that OP's discovery will be just the beginning of something huge. The final enemy will be the WG, and OP will be a piece of the 'truth' that is uncovered

 

[Satisfaction]

Logically speaking shouldn't it be allright if Frankys toy Franky Shogun were stronger than the monster Trio right now? Unless he gets another upgrade I don't see how he's supposed to get stronger and it makes little sense for the ultimate weapon to be weaker than normal Franky which is possible as Franky unlike the monsters doesn't have CoA (Luffy didn't mention any member except zoro and sanji they probably talked about things offscreen or luffy can tell through some manifestation of CoC he could tell fujitora was strong afterall in any case Franky won't have it) so he can improve that way on the other hand machines can't have haki as Rayleigh said all "living" things have the potential for haki. Which brings brook into question.

Luffy didn't really improve much in the two years besides learning haki yet with just that he can fodderize a pacifista that nearly solo'd his crew before. If Franky shogun is meant to be so much stronger than Franky that even when Franky gets a boost like that it'll be superior that should certainly make Shogun stronger than any individual strawhat atm

 

[Crux]

logically speaking

 

[Chou Toshio]

Zetto having such a similar voice to Jiraiya does mess with me though (they have the same voice actor).

edit:

Oh, before I go, one more HUGE spoiler:

spoiler

The key for Zephyr leaving the Marines was-- originally, he had lost his arm in battle with a certain pirate, and the majority of his closest subordinates/students were slaughtered.

Zephyr got his new weapon arm and kept fighting for the marines... until that pirate that had slaughtered his students and taken his arm was made into a Shichibukai.

It's such an old story-- but do you think there's still a chance that the pirate in question might have still been a shichibukai at the beginning of the story?

Jinbe, Boa Hancock, Moria, Croc, Flamingo, Kuma, Mihawk... could it have been one of these?

Who crushed a Marine Admiral and his whole squad and eventually became a shichibukai...

Seems pretty unlikely. Flamingo seems the most likely if any in terms of power/personality, while Mihawk seems like the only one with the power to do it. None of them seem old enough...

 

[yond]

ya luffy didnt improve that much, he just mastered the most powerful/rare technique in all of one piece.... (conquerors haki)