Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

yeah like vemane said, pretty much as soon as team 1 adds hazards, team 2 is going to add a spinner or magic bouncer. you gotta keep in mind that this isn't like regular teambuilding where you have no knowledge of the opposing team. if they pick up something that threatens our current lineup we'll snag a wall for whatever that happens to be and once again they'll be on their back foot. it's fine...
 
Terrakion and Keldeo seem to be the best picks right now, as they counter Tyranitar, Zapdos biggest threat. also agreeing with Ganj4IF on the topic of Lando-T. However, Terrakion cannot OHKO Lando for sure even with SR.

I guess Latias also works well in the sense that it outsped Lando and can deal significant damage. But the problem here is that it doesn't appreciate a U-turn
 
I'm not sure if this is the 'right time' to introduce this into the team, but I think it would be a valuable choice under the circumstances anyway.

121.gif


Starmie @Life Orb
Natural Cure
Timid - 4 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe
-Hydro Pump
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Rapid Spin

I know Starmie has been suggested in the last two nomination phases, but I really feel it makes sense for team two right now. That is, it can spin away rocks (seeing as Zapdos is SR weak), and it can also outspeed and KO Landorus-I. Granted, it can't switch in, but that's what Zapdos is for; this just gives us a back-up check for Landorus.

I chose the more offensive LO set to try and put a bit of pressure on team one. Also, I feel like Starmie's coverage and speed will make it generally useful no matter what team one picks, so I feel it's pretty solid. My only concern is whether Starmie isn't quite threatening enough against team one, and that maybe we should choose our spinner later. All things considered though, I doubt Starmie would be dead weight if we chose it.
 
TyranitarAbuser said:
Terrakion and Keldeo seem to be the best picks right now, as they counter Tyranitar, Zapdos biggest threat. also agreeing with Ganj4IF on the topic of Lando-T. However, Terrakion cannot OHKO Lando for sure even with SR.

I guess Latias also works well in the sense that it outsped Lando and can deal significant damage. But the problem here is that it doesn't appreciate a U-turn
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I'd call Tyranitar Zapdos' biggest threat. Zappy can PP stall the hell out of it with Roost and Pressure if it's going for Stone Edge, and if it's not going for Stone Edge, it's not your biggest threat. Meanwhile, you can just Volt Switch away anyway.
 
FrostFire said:
I'm not sure if this is the 'right time' to introduce this into the team, but I think it would be a valuable choice under the circumstances anyway.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't think it is the right time just yet to pick a spinner. Ideally we will want to pick it after the other team has picked their SR setter. This'll allow us to pick the spinner with the best matchup against that setter so that we can immediately respond to their rocks with our spinner. (Or maybe we'll use a Magic Bouncer)
 
So far LO Mamo, EB Keldeo, and Band Terrakion have been the best submissions, and the only good ones so far. Here are my comments on them:

EB Keldeo:

The combo of Zapdos + Keldeo is countered only by Gastrodon, Amoonguss, and CM Latias, all of which are Pokemon with little immediate offensive presence and not so hard to counter or take advantage of. Keldeo also outspeeds Landorus and resists Hidden Power Ice, making Landorus think twice before firing them to catch Zapdos on the switch. Keldeo is an amazing offensive Pokemon that keeps up excellently the offensive pace and leaves little breathing room to team 1, forcing them to either use Pokemon with little offensive presence or offensive checks (and thus Keldeo will still be able to get past them with prediction), which means that no matter what, Keldeo will be useful.

LO Mamoswine:

The combo of Zapdos + Mamoswine is countered by zero Pokemon in OU, but is checked by much more Pokemon that the Zapdos + Keldeo combo, due to Mamo's lower Speed, which means that Pokemon such as Kyurem-B, offensive Water-types in rain, and Terrakion all have the potential to greatly threaten this core. While it is true that having only checks is better than having counters too, the Pokemon that check this relatively slow combo are very popular and very dangerous, with huge offensive presence, that are difficult to take advantage of, unlike the hard counters to the first combo, which are all defensively inclined Pokemon that are easy to handle. This leads me to believe that Keldeo is a better pick than Mamoswine, even though Mamoswine is great as well. I just find that Keldeo has much better all around utility than Mamoswine, which i believe is a Pokemon that we should pick in later stages if we are desperately in need or its priority or wallbreaking powers, as Mamo's use is much more focused and specific than Keldeo's.

CB Terrakion:

The combo of Zapdos + Terrakion is countered only by physically defensive Hippowdon, and this without SR up, as with SR up even Hippo gets 2HKOed 30% of the time from CC. However, the Hippowdon problem is quite a big one, imo. Hippo beats both Zapdos and Terrakion 1 on 1 (Rock Slide/Ice Fang + EQ while Zapdos Roosts and even Toxic is an option), gets ample switch-in opportunities against Zapdos while also blocking Volt Switch and sets up sand and SR, both of which will hinder Zapdos's ability to deal with Landorus. Of 'course our later picks could make sure that Hippowdon is threatened to a big enough degree to not do as he pleases but this is easier said than done as Hippowdon is an a great all around wall and not so many Pokemon can get past it. So, even though we may pick one-two Pokemon that will be able to deal with it, starting from the get go with two Pokemon that lose 1 on 1 against such a great and prominent threat doesn't seem as the best option to me. Furthermore, i don't really like picking Choiced mons this early, as they can lead to the opponent picking Pokemon that can take advantage of our choice locked moves and thus forcing us to play defensively after, which should be avoided.

tl;dr EB Keldeo > LO Mamo > CB Terrakion > everything else so far
 
Yeah there's one big problem that I think significantly hurts the viability of Mamoswine (despite how otherwise cool it would be) and that problem is Rotom-W. The standard set can already deal with it fairly enough but a tweak'd set can be made to really shut the poor pig down. On top of that, Rotom-W will give Team 1 an answer to Zapdos as well and an answer that is capable of providing invaluable team support thanks to pivot switches. (which also pairs up with Lando-I :/)

I more or less agree with Alexwolf about CB Terrakion. Yes it's monstrously powerful and the other team can't pick Lando-T but the part about being Choice Locked really rubs me the wrong way. I'm not so worried about a Hippo as it'll need prediction and a decent amount of luck to beat him. If it ends up the one with SR, Team 2 will be in a good position as its lack of fire power will open up many options for Rapid Spin or even Magic Bounce counter picks. Maybe an SD set with Rock Gem or LO would be better? Rock Gem will ensure that Lando doesn't evade the OHKO most of the time but at the same time it won't be too often that Lando somehow comes in at the same time as Terrakion.

Keldeo is a nice set and the offensive pressure it puts will be a nice revenge gift for the annoying Lando-I pick from Team 1. The choice of HP Bug is really useful as this'll pretty much force their hand towards a Jellicent pick which'll give Team 2 the ghost before they even picked their spinner. However, we used a Rotom-W to handle a Scarf Keldeo last time and I could see it doing the same thing as the EBelt set doesn't have any extra fire power. (although it can switch attacks meaning it'll be easier to put Rotom in a bad position so maybe Rotom wouldn't be a good pick)
 
Are we allowed to edit the zapdos set? While heat wave is generally a good choice for ferrothorn, scizor, and forretress, I feel that toxic actually makes zapdos much harder to counter. With toxic kyurem-b and latias are no longer counters, as they will be worn down by toxic. It also provides utility against hippowdon and others.

I think what was said above by alexwolf is correct about CB terrakion. Honestly with landorus-t being introduced to the OU metagame I don't know how good CB terrakion really is now. Scarf politoed and jirachi being everywhere don't help it out either. I would like to suggest that subSalac terrakion is used over choice band. While it is still countered by the same threats, I can't think of single pokemon that counters Toxic SpD zapdos and SubSalac terrakion. Terrakion lures out slowbro, landorus-t, hippowdon, and gliscor. Team 1 cannot use the best counter, landorus-t because of species clause. Actually some of the other listed counters can lose to terrakion. Terrakion can survive a gliscor earthquake and activate salac berry. Terrakion can switfly 2HKO with boosted stone edge. In some scenarios close combat is enough the second time. Slowbro falls into the same category, except scald and psychic replace earthquake. Thunderwave can screw terrakion but it really risky in case terrakion substitutes. Zapdos comes in and volt switches, hidden power ices, or toxics respectively. Zapdos and terrakion have great synergy in general, with Zapdos resisting fighting, ground (immunity), steel, and grass. Zapdos does not resist water but it can hit water types hard with volt switch. In return terrakion can take rock moves. In summary beating subsalac terrakion is really hard when you can't use landorus-t and the other team features a SpD zapdos to back him up.
terrakion.png

Terrakion @ Salac Berry
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
 
Okay, Hippo beats Terrakion, but Hippo is complete set-up bait for a number of hazard users it's not even funny. Every Steel type not named Cobalion or Jirachi gets a quite free switchin, and since Hippo is forced to Slack Off (or be killed the next time Terrakion gets a free switchin) or EQ, you can pretty much lay free SR / Spikes on him. We can even fit a Jellicent easily onto our team to answer eventual Spinner counterpicks, since Landorus is not happy to have to deal with one (SpD is almost a full counter, and classic utility Jellicent is only troubled by Earth Power on the switch, forcing Lando in a mindgame between Zapdos and Jellicent).

Also, while Terrakion has no true counters besides said Hippowdon, Keldeo and Mamoswine both get walled quite comfortably by a number of pokemon, which is more fair than comparing combos in my opinion. Keldeo has no way to keep up momentum, so if they pick something like Jellicent or Gyarados we're forced into a 50/50 situation every time Keldeo is out: we can double switch out of a possible counter, or just give a free turn to the opponent. Terrakion does not have this kind of issues, since even a resisted attack often threatens a 2HKO or deal respectable damage. Just consider how Terrakion 3HKOs Lucario with Stone Edge through a x4 resistance after a layer of Spikes, or has a chance to 2HKO Intimidate Gyarados with Close Combat after SR. You may argue that those kinds of "misprediction" give Team 1 a free turn, but I won't really define that a free turn. You may be very well be forced to attack back or have your supposed check crippled anyway.

I do recognize that both Keldeo and Mamo are OK picks for this stage, of course. I just think Terrakion puts an incredible pressure on Team 1, and they just can't have a surefire way to stop it as we managed to do with Landorus. This will force them to keep Terrakion in mind for almost every pick they'll do during the project, since a free switch will more often than not mean a dead pokemon or a seriously injured one. Other options are maybe more flexible, but do not put this kind of restraints / pressure on Team 1's teambuilding process, so I think Terrakion may be a very good choice over the other submissions.
 
either terrakion puts a ton of pressure on the opponent and they struggle and fail to find a defensive answer for it, or they just run physically defensive iron plate scizor. that's just an example but my point is that the opponent doesn't have to be constrained to the usual definitions of a check/counter to terrakion; since this is counter that pokemon and not some regular teambuilding exercise, there's less conformity required. point being, terrakion's main problem for our team (especially for the subsalac set) is that it has too many common offensive checks and fails to immediately make dents in the opponent's team by taking advantage of zapdos's volt switch. i get the draw of terrak at this stage in the game but i think it's better to wait on a sweeper and instead settle for now on a pokemon that we know synergizes great with zapdos and also provides us excellent offensive utility and a defensive switch into hp ice off team 1's landorus. i'll take my chances with keldeo
 
Lavos Spawn said:
either terrakion puts a ton of pressure on the opponent and they struggle and fail to find a defensive answer for it, or they just run physically defensive iron plate scizor. i'll take my chances with keldeo for now
Click to expand...

...which has more or less the same issues of Hippowdon, except that it's even trappable if we decide to do so. Ok, it can put more pressure on Terrakion since a mispredict can either result into losing momentum with U-Turn or a dead Terrakion, but it's also arguably less useful overall (cannot provide SR or phazing for example), so forcing them into picking either would be an advantage in my opinion that quite outweight Keldeo's ones.

EDIT: okay, you have a point in your edit, I'll let the voters judge on what solution they prefer at this point.
 
Yeah, as I said earlier, Hippowdon isn't the problem for CB Terrakion, it's the lack of flexibility that is the drawback of the set. Whether or not this is actually a problem is the tricky bit but it's what should be kept in mind when considering Terrakion.

It's true that I had forgotten Gyarados with Keldeo so luring out the Jellicent pick isn't much of an option (too bad, that would do wonders). Then again, a Specs set with the same moves could 2HKO non-SpDef Gyara with Hydro Pump after SR :O. It might be worth considering whether we try to lure out Hippo that is easy to switch into (making it easy to get our Spinner/Magic Bouncer in to keep SR away) or if forcing a Jellicent pick with a Specs Keldeo is good so that we have the ghost to build our Spinner.

So Issues, change your Specs Keldeo set to one with HP Bug and Icy Wind so that we can discuss who we want to lure the other team into picking. (We'll also have to look ahead and dig up other potential counters so that we avoid things not going the way we want.)
 
If we are going to choose terrakion, Team 1 can just pick golurk who totally block terra and check zapdos (3KHO by hp ice). So the best suggestion for the moment imo is EB keldeo.
 
If the other team picks Golurk (lol) then they selected a ghost that is very easy for Starmie to take advantage of as well as many other Pokemon.

Honestly, I think it boils down to whether we want to lure a Hippo/Gliscor pick or a lure a Jellicent pick. (Although, there are a few more Pokemon that counter SpecsKeldeo and nothing says Team 2 can't pick a second Ghost just to screw over a Starmie pick or something.) I'm kinda leaning towards a Terrakion pick since it leaves Keldeo open for another set later on (who can do basically what we want it to do now) and the Terrakion counters are a smaller group due to the fact that his STABs give him such excellent coverage. (plus they are really Spikes weak)
 
I understand both positions, I mean, Lavos explained it pretty well, so I'm going to wait until voting stage arrives. Probably will compare both Terrakion and Keldeo later.
 
To everyone saying that Hippo won't be a problem. I think that Hippo has the potential to trouble team 2 if we go for Terrakion because it will be quite easy for team 1 to set up SR, which will greatly hinder the performance of Zapdos. As i already said, physically defensive Hippowdon beats 1 on 1 both Zapdos and Terrakion, and it is very likely that it will beat another 1 Pokemon of Team 2 at least, and thus will be able to freely set up SR against half of our team. While it is true that we can: 1. pack Rapid Spin support and 2. even our own hazard setters to take advantage of Hippo, the problem with 1. is that we will be responding to Team 1's actions and with 2. that hazards are not such a problem for Team 2 as they are for Team 1, which has a SR weak Pokemon. Everybody knows that Rapid Spinning is a huge loss of momentum and preventing the opponent from setting up hazards in the first place is a much better strategy for offensive teams. So, considering the fact that our main answer to Landorus is Zapdos, we want to make sure that SR will be off our side of the field for as longer as possible, and picking Pokemon against which one of the best defensive Pokemon in OU (Hippo) can set-up SR is not something good, or at least not something that we should go for if we have a better option.

Finally, i don't really get the issue of Jellicent walling Keldeo. Jellicent is a very easy Pokemon to switch into with several top-tier Pokemon that can put good offensive presence such as Celebi and Poison Heal Breloom, which don't care about anything that Jellicent can do, and offensive Starmie with Psyshock (beats SpD Jellicent), which also provides Rapid Spin support that we already need.
 
Concerning Jellicent: Yeah, that's exactly my point. If we can somehow use Keldeo to push for a Jellicent pick that'll give a major advantage to Team 2 as he is so easy to take advantage of.

Back to Hippowdon: Thing is, just about anything could run SR and I would much rather see it on Hippowdon who is easy to bring Spinners and Spikers in on (heck even Xatu can be used to shut him down) than something scary like Terrakion or sturdy like Heatran. On top of that, countering with a Spiker puts Team 1 in the same position as Team 2. Lando can nail Zapdos with SR and prediction but now so can CB Terrakion with Spikes and prediction. Both sides lose their counters depending on the state of the hazard game and seeing as it'll be a lot easier to setup Spikes on their SR setter than their SR setter will be able to on Team 2. (heck, even Zapdos takes a good chunk out of Hippo with HP Ice forcing a Recover vs SR situation) Terrakion is just simply a really good pick and the only thing I can see to compete with it is another Terrakion set (I still haven't given up on the idea of LO/Rock Gem, what do you guys think?) or a Pokemon that can lure the pick of a different Pokemon that is even easier to profit from. (maybe Keldeo, maybe not)
 
Dont really have time to comment/submit and stuff but regarding Choice band terrakion i think you can easily put stealth rock instead of quick attack, which is pretty much useless i would say, we dont lose everything putting them on cb kion now because any spinenr cant even think about switching on it and if they chose a golurk or something later we can just stealth rock into the switch, also we can use two stealth rock user if they chose something like claydol (which is in my opinion really bad)
 
Alright, sorry for being so late with the slate. We're now voting for the second pokemon of Team 2. The possible entries are:


As usual, to vote you have to send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; you should write in both the title and the body of your message "CtP: your preference", where your preference is obviosuly selected from the previous list.

You will have at least 24 hours to vote. I'm letting Melee Mewtwo a little freedom in choosing when to close the voting phase (i.e. when he feels the number of votes is enough and everyone got a chance to express his/her opinion) so a 24-hour extension is possible if he feels it's necessary.

As usual, the thread can be used to discuss further while the voting phase is in progress, if anyone would like to do so.
 
Damn it, too late to suggestion something. Oh well. Time for my two cents.

Based on the options given, I believe Keldeo is the best choice. It resists both of the types Zapdos is weak to. I would love to go with Choice Specs but the fact HP Ice is being used bothers me since it gets Icy Wind (95% accuracy is good enough for me). Even though HP Bug is being used to deal with Celebi instead of HP Ghost, I think it gives Team 1 the hardest time trying to counter it out of the choices given since a counter can easily be taken out by, more than likely, T-tar.
 
Gyarados is big guy who can shut down a Keldeo pick (heck you can even do weird stuff like SpDef GDos) while putting solid offensive pressure on the other team. Keldeo just relies too much on HP to get the coverage it needs. While this obviously works out in standard OU, this project has no problem digging up some otherwise useless sets to deal with it. That's why I prefer CBTerrakion, his STABs give him all the coverage he needs and that raw power (and the fact the other team can't pick Lando-T) really sticks them in a tight spot and forces them to take very defensive picks that are easy to profit from.
 
Melee Mewtwo said:
Concerning Jellicent: Yeah, that's exactly my point. If we can somehow use Keldeo to push for a Jellicent pick that'll give a major advantage to Team 2 as he is so easy to take advantage of.

Back to Hippowdon: Thing is, just about anything could run SR and I would much rather see it on Hippowdon who is easy to bring Spinners and Spikers in on (heck even Xatu can be used to shut him down) than something scary like Terrakion or sturdy like Heatran. On top of that, countering with a Spiker puts Team 1 in the same position as Team 2. Lando can nail Zapdos with SR and prediction but now so can CB Terrakion with Spikes and prediction. Both sides lose their counters depending on the state of the hazard game and seeing as it'll be a lot easier to setup Spikes on their SR setter than their SR setter will be able to on Team 2. (heck, even Zapdos takes a good chunk out of Hippo with HP Ice forcing a Recover vs SR situation) Terrakion is just simply a really good pick and the only thing I can see to compete with it is another Terrakion set (I still haven't given up on the idea of LO/Rock Gem, what do you guys think?) or a Pokemon that can lure the pick of a different Pokemon that is even easier to profit from. (maybe Keldeo, maybe not)
Click to expand...
But if an offensive Pokemon gets SR in team 1, it would be easier to kill them faster and spin after, making SR a much smaller issue for Zapdos. However, if a Pokemon as sturdy as Hippo has it, it will be hard to have SR off the field long enough for Zapdos to reliably check Lando, or at least hard if we don't want to lose momentum by spinning once every five turns.

Finally, it is true that Spikes will hurt team 1, but not more than SR will hurt team 2, which atm relies on Zapdos to handle Landorus.
 
And Team 1 will rely on Hippowdon to counter Terrakion which it won't be able to do if Spikes go up (unless prediction like Zapdos with Landorus). So this not only evens things out but it gives Team 2 more hazards than Team 1 which'll carry over for the others on the team.

As far as momentum is concerned, as soon as Hippo comes out the other team has lost momentum which will be easy to take advantage of. That's the problem with the defensive picks like Hippo in this project and why it's shunned more or less.
 
Yeah Metwo i get the problem with defensive picks, but picking one of the best defensive Pokemon in the game, which is able to setup sandstorm, set up SR, has reliable recovery, and is difficult to setup on due to Whirlwind is not exactly a bad thing or a limitation to team 1. And let's not forget that defensive picks are not unheard of for this project (Skarmory, SpD Celebi, SpD Heatran), and in some cases they even turned out to be one of the MVP's of the team, such as SR + Spikes Skarmory in the last project.

So considering that we would want to give as less opportunities to the opposing team to setup SR and neuter Zapdos, that Hippo is one of the best defensive Pokemon that brings a lot on the table for team 1 and isn't in any way easy to take down (not to mention that it currenty hampers Zapdos's ability to deal with Landorus, as sandstorm prevents lefties recovery and the only Pokemon that team 1 has is already immune to sand), that with CB Terrakion Hippowdon would be a very good check to both Pokemon of team 2, and that choiced Pokemon are easy to take advantage of, especially at such an early stage, i think EB Keldeo is a much better choice than CB Terrakion.
 
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