Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

[ganj4lF]

Well I can't save a replay but the log of the game was (horribly formatted):

Hide

alexwolf joined.
Lavos Spawn joined.
Format:
OU
Evasion Abilities Clause: Evasion abilities are banned
Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep
Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokemon
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
Moody Clause: Moody is banned
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
HP Percentage Mod: HP is reported as percentages
alexwolf's team:
Zapdos / Terrakion / Rotom-Wash / Garchomp / Blastoise / Scizor
Lavos Spawn's team:
Landorus / Slowbro / Jirachi / Kyurem-Black / Azelf / Raikou
Ax joined.
Usatoday joined.
Full Burst joined.
Lavos Spawn: alright gl hf
Usatoday: lets gogo alex
alexwolf: u2
ganj4lF joined.
Battle between alexwolf and Lavos Spawn started!
Go! Rotom (Rotom-Wash)!
Lavos Spawn sent out Kyurem-Black!
The foe's Kyurem-Black is radiating a bursting aura!
Turn 1
ganj4lF: hi all, gl :p
Ziodyne joined.
Musing Soul joined.
Biosci joined.
Melee Mewtwo joined.
Melee Mewtwo: gl
Melee Mewtwo: I'll link in the thread right?
Lavos Spawn: yea
Lavos Spawn: hmmm
The foe's Kyurem-Black used Dragon Claw!
Rotom lost 57.0% of its health!
Rotom used Volt Switch!
It's not very effective... The foe's Kyurem-Black lost 17% of its health!
Rotom went back to alexwolf!
Go! Scizor!
Turn 2
ganj4lF: please save a replay afterward, I don't remember if spectators can :D
Lavos Spawn: yep got u covered ganjy
The foe's Kyurem-Black used Dragon Claw!
It's not very effective... Scizor lost 28.0% of its health!
Scizor used U-turn!
The foe's Kyurem-Black lost 47% of its health!
ganj4lF: great, ty
Scizor went back to alexwolf!
Go! Terrakion!
Turn 3
Lavos Spawn: this is going great
Melee Mewtwo: hum alex's plays are interesint
Lavos Spawn: im onto this man
Lavos Spawn: got u all in check
Halcyon of Light joined.
Melee Mewtwo: I don't know i think you hav this game so far
Melee Mewtwo: I'll see how it plays out though
The foe's Kyurem-Black used Dragon Claw!
Terrakion lost 63% of its health!
Terrakion used Stone Edge!
The foe's Kyurem-Black avoided the attack!
Turn 4
ganj4lF: sigh
Lavos Spawn: hey that's lame
Usatoday: dragon claw kyurem sweep
Lavos Spawn: let's restart
icecreams joined.
Lavos Spawn left.
Melee Mewtwo: !
alexwolf: no relax
alexwolf: hey
Old Yuanxian joined.
ganj4lF: lol
Melee Mewtwo: lavos being nice
alexwolf: tell him to come back
alexwolf: that's just the game
Old Yuanxian left.
Melee Mewtwo: I'm surprise you ddin't lead with terrak
ganj4lF: i guess it's up to you / him to decide..?
alexwolf: i thought he would lead with lando or kyu--b
ganj4lF: never faced such a situation XD
Melee Mewtwo: yeah both ways
Melee Mewtwo: terrka leads nicely
Melee Mewtwo: it was all around a strong lead
Bulgrom joined.
Melee Mewtwo: since it forces the defensive
Melee Mewtwo: or an instant kill
Melee Mewtwo: you need scizor healthy
ganj4lF: go rematch
Nosadjay joined.
Melee Mewtwo: Alex
Melee Mewtwo: talk to lavos
Nosadjay left.
Lavos Spawn joined.
Melee Mewtwo: he doesn't want to have an early game mis like that
finalninja243 joined.
alexwolf: yeah i know
Lavos Spawn: k that was bullshit
Lavos Spawn: so check this out
alexwolf: but a miss is in the plan
1000 Sunny II joined.
alexwolf: we chose terrakion didnt we?
Lavos Spawn: alex just stone edge twice
alexwolf: the risk of a miss should be taken into account
finalninja243: wtf is this
Lavos Spawn: im gonna go to rachi
Lavos Spawn: and back to kyu-b
alexwolf: no man
Lavos Spawn: i dont need rachi anyways
alexwolf: justfinish pls
Lavos Spawn: dude cmon
Lavos Spawn: lol k
finalninja243: come on move
unending destiny joined.
The foe's Kyurem-Black used Dragon Claw!
Terrakion lost 37% of its health!
Terrakion fainted!
Lavos Spawn: thats so dumb
finalninja243: there has been more convo than mosves
1000 Sunny II: should've went back to scizor
Melee Mewtwo: chill out ninja
Go! Scizor!
Turn 5
ganj4lF: i would actually liked a rematcuh but it's up to you i guess
Lavos Spawn: yeah
Lavos Spawn: i want to rematch
finalninja243: i really dont need to chill thank you very much
Lavos Spawn: where he hits SE
1000 Sunny II: best of 3 anyways
Lavos Spawn: cos i want to show you
finalninja243: scarf kyu-b
Lavos Spawn: team 1 wins easily
Lavos Spawn: w/o hax
+finalninja243: !data kyu-b
No pokemon, item, move, or ability named 'kyu-b' was found. (Check your spelling?)
Scizor used Bullet Punch!
It's super effective! The foe's Kyurem-Black lost 36% of its health!
The foe's Kyurem-Black fainted!
+finalninja243: !data kyurem-b
646
Kyurem-BlackTeravoltHP
125Atk
170Def
100SpA
120SpD
90Spe
95BST
700
Melee Mewtwo: IMO alex made a poor lead choice
unending destiny: is cube
finalninja243: that base stat total
Melee Mewtwo: so I don't think the miss made much a difference here
Lavos Spawn: i was expecting zap or rotom lead
brens400 joined.
Lavos Spawn: so yea
Melee Mewtwo: ah no quick attack?
Lavos Spawn sent out Raikou!
The foe's Raikou is exerting its pressure!
Turn 6
finalninja243: 2nd behind only arceus
Melee Mewtwo: that opens raikou
alexwolf: rotom-w has the best match up in general vs its team
Melee Mewtwo: or does it fail to KO?
finalninja243: fails to KO
alexwolf: and can allow me to bring chomp in to setup sr
ganj4lF: prolly fails to ko
Lavos Spawn: i ran all my calcs mewtwo
Lavos Spawn: dw
Melee Mewtwo: nah the only stuff forcing out terrak
Melee Mewtwo: is bro/rachi
Lavos Spawn: false
Melee Mewtwo: which are p easy to come in on
sugar(pro) joined.
Lavos Spawn: well
Melee Mewtwo: oh yeah
Lavos Spawn: you'll see
Melee Mewtwo: azelf
finalninja243: sup sugar
Usatoday left.
Lavos Spawn: but i won this one already
Melee Mewtwo: yeah
Melee Mewtwo: raikou can KO scizor now
Lavos Spawn: miss helped but the lead and the uturn really was all it took
Scizor, come back!
Go! Blastoise!
The foe's Raikou used Calm Mind!
The foe's Raikou's Special Attack rose!
The foe's Raikou's Special Defense rose!
Turn 7
Melee Mewtwo: yeah
finalninja243: da faq is he doing
Lavos Spawn: this kills
alexwolf: missclick but doesnt matter anyway
The foe's Raikou used Thunderbolt!
It's super effective! Blastoise lost 100% of its health!
Blastoise fainted!
Lavos Spawn: misclick really
Lavos Spawn: fucking restart
Melee Mewtwo: terrak is something he could have risked
alexwolf: relax man
alexwolf: its ok
alexwolf: you had this game anyway
Go! Scizor!
Turn 8
ganj4lF: just play 4 of them, we'll ignore first if you agree
Enguarde joined.
Lavos Spawn: works for me
alexwolf: whatever i dont care
alexwolf: doing this for the fun
The foe's Raikou used Volt Switch!
Scizor lost 54% of its health!
The foe's Raikou went back to Lavos Spawn!
Lavos Spawn sent out Jirachi!
Scizor used U-turn!
The foe's Jirachi lost 49% of its health!
Scizor went back to alexwolf!
Go! Garchomp!
The foe's Jirachi restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 9
blitzlefan joined.
Lavos Spawn: now i dont even have to predict
Lavos Spawn: this is over
Garchomp used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
The foe's Jirachi used Icy Wind!
It's super effective! Garchomp lost 69% of its health!
Garchomp's Speed fell!
The foe's Jirachi restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 10
Lavos Spawn withdrew Jirachi!
Lavos Spawn sent out Azelf!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Azelf!
Garchomp, come back!
Go! Zapdos!
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Turn 11
The foe's Azelf used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around your team!
Zapdos used Volt Switch!
The foe's Azelf lost 53% of its health!
Zapdos went back to alexwolf!
Go! Scizor!
Pointed stones dug into Scizor!
Turn 12
alexwolf: gg
Lavos Spawn withdrew Azelf!
Lavos Spawn sent out Slowbro!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Slowbro!
Scizor used Quick Attack!
The foe's Slowbro lost 19% of its health!
The foe's Slowbro restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 13
Lavos Spawn: gg
Usatoday joined.
alexwolf left.
Lavos Spawn left.
Bulgrom left.
Melee Mewtwo left.
Halcyon of Light left.
brens400 left.
1000 Sunny II left.
Musing Soul left.

 

[Homeslice]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-34078602
You guys know you can just search their names and find their recent matches, right? Anyways, this is the second match, First wasn't match wasn't there.

 

[Lavos]

won game 2 http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-34078602

lost game 3 in ridiculous fashion http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-34082403

im not playing any more this is beyond me, team 2 has matchup advantage and alexwolf has thrown it away every single game

 

[Halcyon.]

Dat game 3...

 

[Pocket]

Huh are you kidding me, lavos? Raikou auto-wins versus team 2. The only way to defeat team 1 is to hax Raikou to death.

 

[alexwolf]

Lost 2-1 vs Lavos. In the first two games Raikou dominated me (even though i had a chance to turn the game around which i didn't take, in the turn i didn't use Bullet Punch vs Kyu-B in the 2nd game) while in the third game i won, but the game was trash anyway due to huge hax (ton of misses, crits, and of 'course Rachi's flinchs). Gg Lavos, and thx to everyone that saw the games and participated in this project!

Will post my thoughts on the teams a bit later...

 

[Frochtejohgurt]

im not playing any more this is beyond me, team 2 has matchup advantage and alexwolf has thrown it away every single game

Would you be willing to switch teams and show us how deal with Raikou?

 

[ganj4lF]

This was the messiest CtP final battle I've ever seen, hax was literally everywhere. I'm posting my opinions tomorrow, so tired right now. I'm a bit curious too about that "matchup advantage" thing: although I didn't think it was so bad for Team 2, Raikou (and to an extent Cube) showed a complete dominance which makes me wonder if Lavos is joking or not. I'll check the thread tomorrow anyways, but I guess we still can have a last bit of interesting discussion.

Thanks again to alexwolf, Lavos, and everyone else that contributed to this project!

 

[G-Von]

After watching the replays fully I would have to say Game 2 is the most accurate depiction of what the match should have looked like. Game 3 was just way to lul-zy to be taken serious.

 

[MMII]

No offense to alexwolf but I think Lavos was right. Raikou + Kyu-B were posing a huge problem early game but there were ways around them. Getting SR up was all it took to put Kyu-B in Bullet Punch OHKO range. In the mean time, Terrakion/Blastoise/Rotom could tank an Outrage and KO/Phaze/deal 25% back. Afterwards, dealing with Raikou was just a matter of keeping Scizor and, ideally, Terrakion healthy. As long as Terrakion remained above a certain HP range, Raikou was basically forced to Volt-Switch which alexwolf could have predicted (goes both ways but yeah) while Scizor could still deal 37% min to Raikou with Quick Attack meaning that Volt-Switching on him isn't a strong idea if SR is up. It's tricky but I think the game didn't need to end as they did, alexwolf was a bit too quick to give Lavos his win condition imo.

That said, great games guys and thanks for participating. Feel free to comment on the matches and what you think could have been done differently, etc.

 

[Lavos]

Huh are you kidding me, lavos? Raikou auto-wins versus team 2. The only way to defeat team 1 is to hax Raikou to death.

no, sure raikou is a threat but alexwolf had multiple opportunities to prevent a sweep just by keeping sciz and terrak at a reasonable level of health. i went into the battle knowing that raikou swept his team if i could stay above 80%, get terrak below 80% and get sciz below 65%. that is what's necessary for me to sweep at +1. alexwolf should have gone into the games with the mentality that he needed to preserve sciz and terrak while still getting them in as much as possible since they did a good amount of work on my team. he should have led with scizor and tried to play around kyu-b, if he had to go down to 60% to take an outrage that's fine since he has quick attack. however he never should have allowed terrakion to take any damage, he should have been spamming cc/se/x-scissor all game long and trying to wear me down asap. also getting rocks up in the first 5 turns should have been a priority. i also had no switch to rotom-w other than kyu-b and you can just voltturn me to death anyways (plus sciz has bp, use it!) so alex definitely needed to take greater advantage of the three massive threats he had against my team.

tl;dr: get rocks, spam terrak/sciz while keeping them at health limits, chip at raikou to get it in range for 2 quick attacks

ggs alexwolf im not attacking you personally i just gave this a lot of thought before i went into it and that's how i see it. if i was revisiting the project i'd say don't choose something so vulnerable to uu spinners as the sr setter for team 1, put phazing on zapdos, drop lo on chomp, and get something faster for team 2 so youre not so bloody vulnerable to any sweeper faster than 346.

we shoulda used durant guys

 

[MMII]

Durant only has 109 speed, though, and do you mean SR setter for Team 1?

Edit: Oh, lol.

 

[Lavos]

yes i meant sr setter for team 1, editing now

durant was a joke cos the raikou has 347 speed u_u

 

[G-Von]

we shoulda used durant guys

AKA a damn scarfer. 3 pokemon on team 1 outsped team 2's fastest poke, terrakion lol.

 

[ganj4lF]

Okay, so two closing words on the project. Despite the messy final battle, I think it was quite successful: as someone argued, both teams had the chance to win the battle. The community is indeed getting a better grasp on this project after a few runs, and this means the final battle will be always a close one (just compare the Mk II domination with the last two runs). There were mistakes, of course (I think the biggest one was Lando preventing us from getting access to the Therian forme, but in hindsight Blastoise was a bad choice too, ScarfRachi was probably a better idea), but after all they weren't as bad as they used to be in the past. I'm overall satisfied with everything, included the PM voting: it discouraged random people from voting, although at the expense of some participation towards the end of the project.

It's actually quite interesting that in both Mk III and Mk IV, the battler that had a clearer game plan won regardless of him having the advantage of the last pick (see Melee Mewtwo the last time or Lavos this one). I obviously don't want to blame anyone, but it just seems to me that this kind of battle requires careful planning much more than things like successful predictions or reads. It just seems to me that we've learned quite well how to build a team for CtP, but much less on how to play it. Food for thought I guess.

I don't think I'll host another CtP before XY comes out. Yeah, it's a big timespan, but I think waiting a bit is the best choice. BW2 is not probably going to change much, so we have comparatively less to learn from these kind of projects. I also don't want CtP to become a "routine project" for the OU subforum, so if we can build some anticipation / expectation (can't find a satisfying translation, damnit) by waiting a tad more, I think it would be nice, especially since the waning participation we experienced towards the end of the process. If anyone wants to do it, no problem, maybe drop me a PM just to let me know, it woud be nice.

Once again, thanks everyone for participating, Lavos and alexwolf for playing, and Melee Mewtwo for helping out with everything. It was funny and interesting as usual, I'm glad this worked out quite well as I expected. See you around!

 

[alexwolf]

As many players mentioned, i didn't really have a gameplan and this mattered a lot. The only thing i remember is that i definitely had in mind to setup SR as fast as possible, and that Kyu-B and Raikou were the best possible leads for lavos, and with those two thoughts combined i didn't want to lead with Garchomp as Lavos could easily anticipate it and put me in an early disadvantage by leading with either Raikou or Kyu-B, which were already excellent lead choices.

However, it seems that i had a huge brain fart, and instead of leading with Scizor or Terrakion (the Pokemon that match-up the best against Raikou and Kyu-B) in the first two games, i decided to lead with Rotom-W, which is just stupid when i could lead with Chomp and setup asap SR against the same Pokemon that Rotom-W was meant to be useful as a lead against anyway (Landorus and Azelf).

Also, another mistake i did was in the first and second game, where i should have used Bullet Punch against Kyurem-B instead of U-turn, as i hadn't thought at all about him staying in and the consequences i would pay if i used U-turn as he stayed in. In hindsight, i could also have switched to Zapdos when CB Terrakion was facing a +1 Raikou, anticipating the Volt Switch and keeping Terrakion alive, in order to not get swept by Raikou later (in the 2nd game).

So, all in all, the teams didn't match as poorly as it they seemed to do in the games, i just screwed up (damn i should really form a battle plan in such cases), and lavos had the upper hand all the time due to him having a clear-cut way to victory, while i was just acting on a whim. Should i have had a clear-cut way to victory planed on my mind as well the games would have been much more interesting and not in the huge favor of any of the two teams, so great job for building two teams that could give a fair challenge to each other guys!

This doesn't mean that this wasn't a good experience though, and i would definitely participate in the next CtP that would happen, as i always end up learning new things from it and having really interesting discussions with all you guys!

 

[futuresuperstar]

I have a suggestion for the next cycle of the project that may help balance the "last pick" issue and also help guide the team creation. I think that we should all discuss and vote on what we "want" Team 1 to be like--the style of team, the objective of the team, etc. Say, an "objective" for what it wants to do could be "stall out Team 2" or "constant offensive pressure" or whatever. Just some sort of theme that guides the first pick, if you will, and then ties the whole team together. This allows Team 2 to select its own theme which, by nature, could "counter" Team 1's theme, giving them a way to sort of re-even the playing field with Team 1 still having last Pokemon pick.

Just a thought.

 

[Homeslice]

While on paper that idea might seem good, but honestly it'll turn a huge advantage to Team 2 instead. Team 2 knows Team 1's game plan, so they can just stack options accordingly. If team 1 chooses Stall, they can just pick a bunch of Mixed Attackers/Wallbreakers to stop the opponent. If they pick a weather, we can just pick a mon that hard counters the weather and stack Team 2 with weather abusers- this is especially important for Rain, because if we know Team 1 has a Politoed you can essentially bend the rules of Aldaron's proposal and throw in a Kingdra to sweep everything with Swift Swim. I don't think it'd be a good idea in the long run, it's turn into a very limiting way to pick combined with the fact Team 2 can do whatever they want. To be honest, Pick 1 isn't as game-breaking as it seems so long as Team 2 can actually build a decent team with little weaknesses. In Mk 3, Infernape was chosen last, and it honestly didn't do much of anything. In this project, Raikou did about nothing in Game 3, and a decent bit in Game 2. It's not as game-breaking anymore because people are smarter and Team 2 is getting built better. I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but we're also doing better at making the first pick almost completely worthless with the first pick of Team 2, so if there is an advantage, it evens out. Just my take on it.