Entry Hazards - Are They Broken?

[Lady Alex]

I'm having trouble with the idea that Stealth Rock is broken simply because it is used all the time. Things like Toxic are used on almost every team too, but we wouldn't ban that. I know the two aren't comparable, so please don't point out that that was a weak analogy. The point of this is what makes something broken? I believe that a thing is broken iff it causes people of greater skill to lose to people of lesser skill a majority of the time, or at least lessen the gap between them to the point where matches become a tossup. I would say that very rarely are matches decided by who gets up Rocks first (I say rarely, because it is obviously possible for this to be the case, just not commonly). When Genesect was running around, matches became "who can set up Rock Polish first?" and when Excadrill was around it was "who can set up Swords Dance first?" but this isn't the case with Stealth Rock. Basically, a new player that has Stealth Rock doesn't have an extreme advantage over a veteran who doesn't. Yes, it is an advantage, but not one that puts them on an even playing field, in my opinion. That is why I said Stealth Rock isn't broken. It is a staple of OU, and it causes a lot of Pokémon to be considered less viable than others, but it's affect on the metagame isn't inherently negative. It makes some Pokémon good and some Pokémon not good. But it isn't on the same level as, say, Drizzle or Drought (which I do think should be suspected) when it comes to the support it brings. That's just my two cents.

I think it's easy to underestimate how influential SR really is in any individual match. Let's say Person A gets rocks up on turn 1, but Person B only gets rocks up on turn 15. In the course of 15 turns, Person B has likely switched 4-6 times. That's about 50-75% (not taking into consideration weaknesses or resistances) worth of damage spread out that Person B has taken that Person A hasn't, simply from switching. It's a bigger determining factor than a lot of people are giving it credit for.

My question is what's the point of banning SR when it will hurt OU in the short term rather than helping it?

BW2 has about 5 months left in it so there's really no point in banning it when things like Volcarona and Dragonite will become broken and just fuck up the meta. If you wanted to ban SR this topic should've been brought up like 2 years ago, it's a little late. Can we not just wait until Pokemon XY to address these issues?

I addressed this in an earlier post.

 

[Colress]

I also mentioned directly after that regardless of who it checks/who becomes viable without it is largely irrelevant if we find SR broken.

It is true that you mentioned this fact directly after that, however you did list that as a point against keeping Stealth Rock earlier in your post and I simply pointed out the issue with it. That is all.

I see you are frustrated with some of the lackluster arguments being provided in favour of not testing Stealth Rock, understandably so. I was originally planning not to get caught up in this debate, but in the interest of providing you with a legitimate discussion, here is my view: Stealth Rock is completely ubiquitous only because the move's distribution is ubiquitous and a single moveslot is a very small cost. If it had the same distribution of Spikes or Toxic Spikes, I do not believe it would be nearly as common as it is now, nor would it be regarded as necessary. It is not so powerful that people must go out of their way to use it - to the contrary, it is the fact that people do not need to give up anything of note to use it.

 

[moonbase]

I'm guessing that people that post on here know that without entry hazards, Stall/phazing would be screwed. I didn't read the other posts, but if we got rid of entry hazards, this would be a full balls out offensive metagame. Just to put that in perspective.

 

[Lady Alex]

I see you are frustrated with some of the lackluster arguments being provided in favour of not testing Stealth Rock, understandably so. I was originally planning not to get caught up in this debate, but in the interest of providing you with a legitimate discussion, here is my view: Stealth Rock is completely ubiquitous only because the move's distribution is ubiquitous and a single moveslot is a very small cost. If it had the same distribution of Spikes or Toxic Spikes, I do not believe it would be nearly as common as it is now, nor would it be regarded as necessary. It is not so powerful that people must go out of their way to use it - to the contrary, it is the fact that people do not need to give up anything of note to use it.

Unfortunately, we're not in a position where we could see if Stealth Rock would require more opportunity cost to set up if it had worse distribution. SR's amazing distribution compared to other hazards compounds its inherent flaw. It is too powerful for something that is so easy to set up that people do not need to give up anything of note to use it.

I'm guessing that people that post on here know that without entry hazards, Stall/phazing would be screwed. I didn't read the other posts, but if we got rid of entry hazards, this would be a full balls out offensive metagame. Just to put that in perspective.

Just to catch you + anyone else who just started reading up (though I highly suggest reading through the thread), the discussion has mostly moved on specifically to stealth rock's impact on the metagame and whether or not it deserves to be suspected.

 

[youngjake93]

I'm guessing that people that post on here know that without entry hazards, Stall/phazing would be screwed. I didn't read the other posts, but if we got rid of entry hazards, this would be a full balls out offensive metagame. Just to put that in perspective.

False. Stealth Rocks hurt defensive teams. Through the use of rocks, powerful attackers such as Landorus-I can 2hko a much larger portion of the metagame so stall has less viable options to switch into it. It also only takes one turn to set up, so offensive teams can use it easily. Spikes are more of a defensive team's asset as it is hard to set up all 3 layers without stalling. Also, pure offensive beatdown teams would get trolled by focus sash setup sweepers anyway..
Plus hazards limit switching, so stall teams are hurt a lot more as they switch more often.
Just because hazards are a valuable asset to stall teams doesn't mean they don't hurt the playstyle more than help.

 

[Colress]

It is true that Stealth Rock is more powerful than other support moves that require minimal opportunity cost. How do we draw the line for "too powerful", though? You draw the line at every team using it. I do not believe the line should be drawn there, however. I draw the line at it having a clear negative impact on the competitive environment.

There is a large difference between a Pokemon and a move. If a Pokemon is used on every team and can only be countered by using that Pokemon plus its only counter on every team, it has significantly overcentralised the metagame. Overcentralising the metagame is a clear negative impact on the competitive environment.

I do not feel that the metagame is overcentralised on Stealth Rock. It is a single moveslot, and it does have a large influence on the metagame, but it does not have such an influence that all teams are built around maximising its effect for themselves or minimising the effect of it against themselves. Although Stealth Rock is on every team, its counter, Rapid Spin users, are not even close to necessary for every team. This is another very large difference from an overpowered Pokemon - you can still easily win without counters to it.

There is no clear evidence that Stealth Rock is making the competitive environment worse. Ubiquity is not necessarily an issue, as long as the metagame is not being overcentralised. It is possible the competitive environment is better without it, and that is why I would be interested in testing it, but it is far from a sure fact that Stealth Rock has a negative impact. I would like to see it tested as an other metagame, for that reason.

 

[Kidogo]

Double01 would you like to go look in the debate thread? this issue has been brought up and explained a ton of times, BW is gonna be relevant long after XY is released. Check out that thread, a drizzle ban would shake up the meta as much as SR would.

Halcyon, the fact that SR is so ubiquitous to the point that we dont even consider it is part of what makes it broken imo. And what I'd argue is that SR is metagame-shaping enough that by now, it's effects are considerably less than they should be. The definition of over-centralization imo.

EDIT: @ colress, SR is by far more overcentralizing than anything else in OU imo. Out of the 51 OU mons given the latest usage stats, 8 are weak to rocks while 15 resist it (and keep in mind that of the 8 weak to it, 4 are flying types--immune to spikes/tspikes--and 1 is a weather starter). In the top 15, there is only 1 SR-weak mon (dnite) and 6 that resist it! In the 1850 stats, there is 1 SR-weak mon in the top 24 (again, nite). And honestly, of course you can win without a counter to it--you have to, there is no counter (as I pointed out, spinners have a really hard time beating spinblockers, and there are SO many great SRers). Really really meta-defining imo

Meanwhile, cool to see that the % of option 3 keeps growing!

 

[dcae]

Yep. I don't think people grasp that SR has become a requirement on teams nowadays. It has by itself shaped every metagame since its introduction back in DPP. The entire problem with it is that 1 turn of setting it up permits a team to gain an utter advantage over the other team if they done carry a spinner. This single move formed the lead usage back in DPP. This move forced teams to run Spinners to support their mons, which is imo a ridiculous restriction on a teamslot to run a move that stunts momentum so bad. If the field is covered in rocks, which nowadays it almost always is, it reduces many 3HKOS and 2HKOS into 2HKOS and OHKOs respectively. And it has not helped defensive teams at all. On the other hand, it helped contribute to the high paced meta we have today. It has become such a core part of our metagame that we don't even realize it is broken and there was a time when 4x Rock weak mons didn't lose half their health upon coming in and making them nigh on unviable without a spinner. Imo SR definitely is worthy of a suspect.

 

[youngjake93]

It is true that Stealth Rock is more powerful than other support moves that require minimal opportunity cost. How do we draw the line for "too powerful", though? You draw the line at every team using it. I do not believe the line should be drawn there, however. I draw the line at it having a clear negative impact on the competitive environment.

There is a large difference between a Pokemon and a move. If a Pokemon is used on every team and can only be countered by using that Pokemon plus its only counter on every team, it has significantly overcentralised the metagame. Overcentralising the metagame is a clear negative impact on the competitive environment.

I do not feel that the metagame is overcentralised on Stealth Rock. It is a single moveslot, and it does have a large influence on the metagame, but it does not have such an influence that all teams are built around maximising its effect for themselves or minimising the effect of it against themselves. Although Stealth Rock is on every team, its counter, Rapid Spin users, are not even close to necessary for every team. This is another very large difference from an overpowered Pokemon - you can still easily win without counters to it.

There is no clear evidence that Stealth Rock is making the competitive environment worse. Ubiquity is not necessarily an issue, as long as the metagame is not being overcentralised. It is possible the competitive environment is better without it, and that is why I would be interested in testing it, but it is far from a sure fact that Stealth Rock has a negative impact. I would like to see it tested as an other metagame, for that reason.

You can win without using Rapid Spin by using Stealth Rocks. You can beat a team with Excadrill by levelling the playing field with one of your own. Same concept. The only reason why people choose the 'level the playing field' option for SR rather than 'counter it' is because the cost of running a spinner is far greater than running rocks yourself. However, in the Excadrill era, running Gliscor to counter it didn't come at such a cost to your team as it was very good in that meta.
Also, ice, fire and bug types without a neutrality to rocks have been forced out of OU for the most part while rock, fighting, ground and steel types get to chill in the tier. It is so overcentralizing. It isn't like "okay so Skarmory and Gliscor are used a lot" which got Exca banned for overcentralizing. The entire type chart is thrown out of whack thanks to stealth rocks. Dozens of pokemon are less used and dozens are more used because of it. When analyses make a habit of including the word Stealth Rocks in most of them, you know it is overcentralizing.

 

[Lady Alex]

It is true that Stealth Rock is more powerful than other support moves that require minimal opportunity cost. How do we draw the line for "too powerful", though? You draw the line at every team using it. I do not believe the line should be drawn there, however. I draw the line at it having a clear negative impact on the competitive environment.

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Being necessarily used on every team because they're so effective can be seen as a clear, negative impact on the metagame.

There is a large difference between a Pokemon and a move. If a Pokemon is used on every team and can only be countered by using that Pokemon plus its only counter on every team, it has significantly overcentralised the metagame. Overcentralising the metagame is a clear negative impact on the competitive environment.

Being used on almost all teams is probably the best example of centralization that has ever existed in competitive pokemon. Additionally, if you want to counter them, you are limited to using one of a very small pool of pokemon who often have a difficult time doing their job of spinning.

I do not feel that the metagame is overcentralised on Stealth Rock. It is a single moveslot, and it does have a large influence on the metagame, but it does not have such an influence that all teams are built around maximising its effect for themselves or minimising the effect of it against themselves.

I would argue that this isn't true. For example, most set up sweepers wholly rely on stealth rock damage to perform their job. It's why the metagame is as offensive as it is. SR is the easiest hazard to set up, and it hits everything. People don't go into teambuilding with the thought "I'm going build this team specifically to utilize SR to its fullest potential," because the metagame is already so saturated with its importance that it's a given. Likewise, for teams that have several/crippling stealth rock weaknesses (sun, for instance), you do have to build your team to minimize the effect of it.


Although Stealth Rock is on every team, its counter, Rapid Spin users, are not even close to necessary for every team. This is another very large difference from an overpowered Pokemon - you can still easily win without counters to it.

They're not necessary for every team because they are built around minimizing the effectiveness of them, or are able to ensure that their own hazards are going to heavily outweigh the effect that their opponent's hazards will do to themselves.


There is no clear evidence that Stealth Rock is making the competitive environment worse. It is possible, and that is why I would be interested in testing it, but it is far from a sure fact that Stealth Rock has a negative impact. I would like to see it tested as an other metagame, for that reason.

There's not clear evidence because it's balance has never been questioned. It has always been assumed that stealth rock is just a pure, unavoidable fact, and it has become such a core factor of the metagame that, whether or not its effects are negative, they've become accepted as unavoidable.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I kinda want to bring up that there has almost never been a moment where Rock weak Pokemon were common in OU. In Gen III, the only Pokemon that would have been weak to Stealth Rock in OU are Salamence, Aerodactyl, Regice, Cloyster, Zapdos, and Gyarados. That's around the current percentage (6/26 is close-ish to 8/51). In Gen II it was even worse, with only Cloyster and Zapdos being weak to Rock. A big thing is that Fire, Ice, and Bug are terrible defensive typings to begin with due to other weaknesses so its usually just whatever Flying-types happen to make it into OU, and a lot of them happen to be Dragons or Gyarados in any given generation, before and after Stealth Rock.

I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread but I wanted to point that out. There is nothing that says Yanmega or something would be OU without Stealth Rock's existence (I actually doubt it would be) mainly because historically Pokemon weak to Rock have been screwed over a lot.

 

[youngjake93]

I think what the pro-sr people are trying to say is "why does it matter if it is a good idea to have SR on 90% of teams? It is a good idea to run taunt on most teams, it is a good idea to run toxic on most teams, etc"
However, you have to look at how effective they are and the cost-effectiveness to deal with them.
So your opponent used taunt? You can attack, switch to any other mon, use magic coat(which stops them from just using it again next turn unlike SR), use taunt before them, or use mental herb. Also, to use taunt you not only have to waste a turn like SR, but you also run the risk of being attacked that turn and not even getting any benefit out of taunt.
Toxic similarly has plenty of ways to deal with it and it's benefits aren't that immense either.
Stealth Rocks, on the other hand, can't be reliably dealt with. Rapid spin can be blocked, magic bouncers are fragile and the switch is predictable with team preview and it isn't always easy to tell when the opponent will use the move or even which of thei Pokemon is carrying it. Also, the hassle to switch to a rapid spinner, use rapid spin without it being blocked and then being stuck with your usually deadweight mon out is a lot to ask for.
Then of course, we all know how powerful the move is. It does over 100% worth of hp damage each battle usually by the end with zero maitenence. And it evens acts as a lot of teams' answer to Dragonite, Volcarona, sun and hail teams.

 

[Colress]

Kidogo, correlation does not imply causation. In the UU Top 10, there is one Pokemon that resists SR and three that are weak to it, including the second most used Pokemon. The Pokemon that does resist it is Mienshao. The fact that Mienshao resists Stealth Rock has minimal bearing on its usefulness - it wouldn't drop in usage at all even if it were neutral to Stealth Rock. UU is not any different from OU in regards to Stealth Rock, either - it is just as ubiquitous.

youngjake93, there will always be types that are less used than others. There are currently four Grass-type Pokemon in OU. They have no Stealth Rock weakness, and all of the types of Pokemon they are weak to are weak to Stealth Rock. We can not make adjustments to the metagame solely to promote type equality. The goal is to make the best competitive environment possible, not make every possible option equally viable.

Lady Alex, it is true that they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. My point is that they are also not necessarily corresponding. The fact that only a small number of Pokemon can counter Stealth Rock is not a legitimate counterpoint - after only, only a small number of Pokemon can counter Excadrill. That being said, there is truth in the counterpoint that Rapid Spin users aren't truly counters to Stealth Rock, and I will cede that.

I feel as though a lot of assumptions are made about the necessity and effectiveness of Stealth Rock. The team I am currently using holds the #1 spot on the UU ladder, and I personally have had success with it, as well, peaking in the top #30s. It is not built to minimise Stealth Rock. It does not have a Rapid Spinner, either. It is not built to maximise Stealth Rock. I use Stealth Rock in less than 20% of my battles. Why is it on the team, then? Because I don't have to give anything up for it, and I feel as though it would be more useful than anything else I could put in my 24th move slot. My team could function just as well without it - it is not necessary in any way to my team's success. It is simply a better option for a last move than the alternatives.

That is the reason behind its ubiquity. Not that its necessary, but because it is universal. Not only is it distributed to a large variety of Pokemon, but it is a generic support effect that is useful on every team, whether it is offensive or defensive. That does not mean it is too powerful, only that it is the effect it has is versatile in that it benefits any team that uses it.

 

[Curtains]

Double01 would you like to go look in the debate thread? this issue has been brought up and explained a ton of times, BW is gonna be relevant long after XY is released. Check out that thread, a drizzle ban would shake up the meta as much as SR would.

Halcyon, the fact that SR is so ubiquitous to the point that we dont even consider it is part of what makes it broken imo. And what I'd argue is that SR is metagame-shaping enough that by now, it's effects are considerably less than they should be. The definition of over-centralization imo.

EDIT: @ colress, SR is by far more overcentralizing than anything else in OU imo. Out of the 51 OU mons given the latest usage stats, 8 are weak to rocks while 15 resist it (and keep in mind that of the 8 weak to it, 4 are flying types--immune to spikes/tspikes--and 1 is a weather starter). In the top 15, there is only 1 SR-weak mon (dnite) and 6 that resist it! In the 1850 stats, there is 1 SR-weak mon in the top 24 (again, nite). And honestly, of course you can win without a counter to it--you have to, there is no counter (as I pointed out, spinners have a really hard time beating spinblockers, and there are SO many great SRers). Really really meta-defining imo

Meanwhile, cool to see that the % of option 3 keeps growing!

That is just absolutely false. If drizzle/drought is gone the metagame can move on without it easily. No mechanics would have been changed and we can go back to playing pokemon. If SR is gone you open up a huge can of shit onto the metagame. The game would be slowed down because most pokemon in the tier would get a huge boost defensively. Defensive pokemon like bronzong and ferrothorn would be completely useless in spots where you need that 1-2hko... Focus sash pokemon would be all over the place. People could literally run 6 focus sash sweepers without worrying about SR. The idea of a OHKO would be completely thrown out the window because everything could run focus sash. Imagine laddering with that crap..... Or a tournament even.. big fun right? Wrong! If you had a spiker then it could be trapped. Don't believe it would happen? Check out the RMT forum after deoxys got banned..... A few focus sash teams did come up. You have to think ahead people. Don't give me the crap about "we dont ban based on the result of a ban". You have to ban and bring down pokemon to make the best metagame possible. The metagame would be an absolute debacle if SR was banned. I am still not convinced that it even deserves a suspect test. No one has brought up any good points on how the metagame would be better... and I repeat : Don't give me the crap about "we dont ban based on the result of a ban" because that is what people would be voting for... a better metagame...

 

[Lady Alex]

Kidogo, correlation does not imply causation. In the UU Top 10, there is one Pokemon that resists SR and three that are weak to it, including the second most used Pokemon. The Pokemon that does resist it is Mienshao. The fact that Mienshao resists Stealth Rock has minimal bearing on its usefulness - it wouldn't drop in usage at all even if it were neutral to Stealth Rock. UU is not any different from OU in regards to Stealth Rock, either - it is just as ubiquitous.

I'm not particularly familiar with UU, so I can't comment.

youngjake93, there will always be types that are less used than others. There are currently four Grass-type Pokemon in OU. They have no Stealth Rock weakness, and all of the types of Pokemon they are weak to are weak to Stealth Rock. We can not make adjustments to the metagame solely to promote type equality. The goal is to make the best competitive environment possible, not make every possible option equally viable.

The best competitive environment possible is a balanced one. SR is the central focus of the entire metagame. Being able to greatly mitigate the effectiveness of entire playstyles (hail, for example) suggests a lack of balance. In DougJustDoug's "Characteristic of a Desirable Metagame," he says that "All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other. " SR completely wrecking a whole playstyle(s) and several other otherwise viable pokemon is suggestive of a balance issue.

Lady Alex, it is true that they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. My point is that they are also not necessarily corresponding. The fact that only a small number of Pokemon can counter Stealth Rock is not a legitimate counterpoint - after only, only a small number of Pokemon can counter Excadrill. That being said, there is truth in the counterpoint that Rapid Spin users aren't truly counters to Stealth Rock, and I will cede that.

You make the correlation that only a small number of pokemon counter Stealth Rock, as only a small number of pokemon counter Excadrill. Excadrill is banned. hmm....

I feel as though a lot of assumptions are made about the necessity and effectiveness of Stealth Rock. The team I am currently using holds the #1 spot on the UU ladder, and I personally have had success with it, as well, peaking in the top #30s. It is not built to minimise Stealth Rock. It does not have a Rapid Spinner, either. It is not built to maximise Stealth Rock. I use Stealth Rock in less than 20% of my battles. Why is it on the team, then? Because I don't have to give anything up for it, and I feel as though it would be more useful than anything else I could put in my 24th move slot. My team could function just as well without it - it is not necessary in any way to my team's success. It is simply a better option for a last move than the alternatives.

Anecdotal evidence of one individual is too small scale to be used effectively in discussing whether or not SR is too powerful.

That is the reason behind its ubiquity. Not that its necessary, but because it is universal. Not only is it distributed to a large variety of Pokemon, but it is a generic support effect that is useful on every team, whether it is offensive or defensive. That does not mean it is too powerful, only that it is the effect it has is versatile in that it benefits any team that uses it.

That is just absolutely false. If drizzle/drought is gone the metagame can move on without it easily. No mechanics would have been changed and we can go back to playing pokemon. If SR is gone you open up a huge can of shit onto the metagame. The game would be slowed down because most pokemon in the tier would get a huge boost defensively. Defensive pokemon like bronzong and ferrothorn would be completely useless in spots where you need that 1-2hko... Focus sash pokemon would be all over the place. People could literally run 6 focus sash sweepers without worrying about SR. The idea of a OHKO would be completely thrown out the window because everything could run focus sash. Imagine laddering with that crap..... Or a tournament even.. big fun right? Wrong! If you had a spiker then it could be trapped. Don't believe it would happen? Check out the RMT forum after deoxys got banned..... A few focus sash teams did come up. You have to think ahead people. Don't give me the crap about "we dont ban based on the result of a ban". You have to ban and bring down pokemon to make the best metagame possible. The metagame would be an absolute debacle if SR was banned. I am still not convinced that it even deserves a suspect test. No one has brought up any good points on how the metagame would be better... and I repeat : Don't give me the crap about "we dont ban based on the result of a ban" because that is what people would be voting for... a better metagame...

You contradict yourself within your post. You say the metagme would be slowed down, yet then go on to say that "people coul dliterally run 6 focus sash sweepers without worrying about SR." You're post is full of exaggerations. There is already precedent behind the banning philosophy that we don't keep broken things to save other broken things from being banned, so you're not contributing to the discussion at all by insisting that we need to keep SR so we don't have to deal with whatever the metagame becomes afterward. Whatever happens in the future, we deal with in the future. Right now, we are discussing Stealth Rock's presence in the metagame, so we are going to deal with it as it is right now, not how it may effect the immediate future.

 

[Curtains]

Hail isn't a very good playstyle. I don't think it would be worth banning the most popular move in the game to try to spare it. Ironically hail needs SR and hazards to even be effective. All you are doing is stalling, or spamming blizzard. You can't even abuse snow cloak anymore because it is banned. You may get a few wins vs a poorly made rain team but that is it. The only thing hail is good for is stopping politoed. Like others and I have said a million times (but no reply): if it is good enough for OU it would be OU regardless of SR.

 

[Lady Alex]

Hail isn't a very good playstyle. I don't think it would be worth banning the most popular move in the game to try to spare it. Ironically hail needs SR and hazards to even be effective. All you are doing is stalling, or spamming blizzard. You can't even abuse snow cloak anymore because it is banned. You may get a few wins vs a poorly made rain team but that is it. The only thing hail is good for is stopping politoed. Like others and I have said a million times (but no reply): if it is good enough for OU it would be OU regardless of SR.

*sigh* you miss the point. Hail is simply an example, not the entirety of the premise. Hail isn't a very good playstyle because of stealth rock. To say that "all you are doing is stalling, or spamming blizzard" is a gross oversimplification of the playstyle. You can't make the definitive statement that whatever is good enough for OU would be OU regardless of whether or not we have SR because there is no way outside of speculation to know if that's the case.

 

[Halcyon.]

*sigh* you miss the point. Hail is simply an example, not the entirety of the premise. Hail isn't a very good playstyle because of stealth rock. To say that "all you are doing is stalling, or spamming blizzard" is a gross oversimplification of the playstyle. You can't make the definitive statement that whatever is good enough for OU would be OU regardless of whether or not we have SR because there is no way outside of speculation to know if that's the case.

I used to play a lot of hail, and I have to disagree with you on this one. Hail has problems for a number of reasons. The biggest one is probably that Ice is weak to Fighting AND Fire, which means things like Heatran only add to the problem. Not only that, but hail has no real "abusers," short of Walrein. If it had a speed boosting Pokémon (Swift Swim Beartic, really GF?), then hail could be a lot better. The Stealth Rock weakness is a disadvantage that hail has, but no more than sun does, and sun does just fine in this meta.

 

[Curtains]

You contradict yourself within your post. You say the metagme would be slowed down, yet then go on to say that "people coul dliterally run 6 focus sash sweepers without worrying about SR." You're post is full of exaggerations. There is already precedent behind the banning philosophy that we don't keep broken things to save other broken things from being banned, so you're not contributing to the discussion at all by insisting that we need to keep SR so we don't have to deal with whatever the metagame becomes afterward. Whatever happens in the future, we deal with in the future. Right now, we are discussing Stealth Rock's presence in the metagame, so we are going to deal with it as it is right now, not how it may effect the immediate future.

When SR suspect comes up you can't think of it as the "here and now and the past". Not logical if you are trying to make a good metagame.

*sigh* you miss the point. Hail is simply an example, not the entirety of the premise. Hail isn't a very good playstyle because of stealth rock. To say that "all you are doing is stalling, or spamming blizzard" is a gross oversimplification of the playstyle. You can't make the definitive statement that whatever is good enough for OU would be OU regardless of whether or not we have SR because there is no way outside of speculation to know if that's the case.

Hail isnt a good playstyle because it isnt a good playstyle. Regardless if SR is in or not. The only thing an ice type gets from hail is a 100% blizzard and no damage from hail. So unless you are making a terrible hail team by putting abomasnow and 5 ice type I don't see where SR would even be a problem outside of abamasnow. If you had leftovers and protect that damage would be lessened quite considerably anyway. Also please stop telling me what I can or cannot do. You aren't winning best debater of the year. The object of weather is to abuse it. Abomasnow is not hitting homeruns or 6-0ing a team offensively. There are no other active ways to abuse hail than to stall or spam blizzard. That is a fact.

 

[Colress]

Lady Alex, it is more than anecdotal evidence. You may not be familiar with the UU format, but that does not mean it does not exist. It is true that my personal success without focusing on Stealth Rock is an anecdote. I am not basing my argument around it, however. My anecdote is simply in support of my argument. The evidence shows that the metagame is not overcentralised by Stealth Rock.

Furthermore, the quote you have used from the "Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame" is actually a point against your argument, which you've misinterpreted. It specifically says "as possible", and further context from the section the quote is from indicates "wide, not widest". It is not possible for hail, sandstorm, rain, sun, trick room, gravity, weatherless, every other possible playstyle, and all 17 types to be equally balanced. To ban Stealth Rock to pursue that goal is completely pointless. There is plenty of variety within both the UU and OU metagames, despite the presence of Stealth Rock. A single moveslot from almost every team may be used for it, but there is still great diversity in playstyles and types. Stealth Rock is not narrowing down the entire metagame overall.

In addition, later in the post, one characteristic listed was stability. One of the goals is to avoid changing the entire metagame unless necessary. Unless we are absolutely certain that the absence of Stealth Rock will improve the metagame noticeably, it is not something that should be done. It should not be banned just to change the metagame and see if it works out for the best. Do you truly believe there is an extreme lack of diversity in OU, and that it is directly caused by Stealth Rock? That is what overcentralisation is. If you believe that, that is enough to justify wanting to ban it. But I do not think you believe that.

 

[youngjake93]

Hail isn't a very good playstyle. I don't think it would be worth banning the most popular move in the game to try to spare it. Ironically hail needs SR and hazards to even be effective. All you are doing is stalling, or spamming blizzard. You can't even abuse snow cloak anymore because it is banned. You may get a few wins vs a poorly made rain team but that is it. The only thing hail is good for is stopping politoed. Like others and I have said a million times (but no reply): if it is good enough for OU it would be OU regardless of SR.

"hail needs SR"... We've already discussed that EVERY team needs SR...
Also, most sand teams these days do not even abuse sand. So to say that their are limited options to abuse hail compared to other styles really makes no sense at all.
Also, hail is viable in OU. Abamosnow only recently fell to UU and is still usable in OU. The best abusers are all weak to SR though, unlike rain and sand and it still is somewhat hanging in there.
And the most obvious flaw in your comment is that hail is just an example. Just like when someone said "there's no reason to ban SR just for moltres"... Moltres is just an example. SR hurts sun, hail, stall, baton pass!, and bully offense pretty badly. That's more than can be said of any other thing that has been banned from OU.

 

[Colress]

Youngjake93, that is not more that can be said of any other thing that has been banned from OU. One example is Drizzle + Swift Swim. It destroys every playstyle that is not rain or a rain counter-team. That is a lot worse than simply weakening a few playstyles, that would not even necessarily be the optimal playstyles even without Stealth Rock. There will always be playstyles that are not the most viable, because it is impossible for every single playstyle to be balanced.

 

[Lady Alex]

I used to play a lot of hail, and I have to disagree with you on this one. Hail has problems for a number of reasons. The biggest one is probably that Ice is weak to Fighting AND Fire, which means things like Heatran only add to the problem. Not only that, but hail has no real "abusers," short of Walrein. If it had a speed boosting Pokémon (Swift Swim Beartic, really GF?), then hail could be a lot better. The Stealth Rock weakness is a disadvantage that hail has, but no more than sun does, and sun does just fine in this meta.

The disadvantage to Stealth Rock that Hail has is quite a bit more significant than Sun's. Sun has a few anti-hazard pokemon that synergize quite well with it. Starmie can act as a water and fighting resist, which sun appreciates. Forretress can soak up dragon attacks, and can reliably switch to ninetales to absorb fire attacks directed at it (dragonite is common on sun, and can do this well, too). Xatu, often paired with dugtrio, forces tyranitar and terrakion users to be wary of ko'ing it, since they'll likely be trap-killed by dugtrio. Donphan resists rock, and is a great tyranitar switch in. Hail doesn't have any luxuries like that. Starmie and Xatu exacerbate hail's already significant tyranitar, scizor, and terrakion weaknesses. Tentacruel's survivability in the hail isn't even comparable to how well it performs in rain. Forretress is weak to fire, and can't take strong fighting type attacks that well. If hail was able to use the slot it has to use for a rapid spinner for something that actually meshes well to patch up its weaknesses, it would be a lot more effective.

When SR suspect comes up you can't think of it as the "here and now and the past". Not logical if you are trying to make a good metagame.

Explained countless times. You're not contributing anything to the discussion.

 

[Curtains]

It is funny you bring up baton pass jake...Without rocks Ninjask could freely baton pass subs + speed with ease all game. You would almost have to run a taunt or phaser to stop that. It is things like this that the anti SR folk don't want to think about. But it is something you have to ask yourself if you want that possibility or not. Many more cheesy unskillful things like that would be a given if SR was banned.

Explained countless times. You're not contributing anything to the discussion.

I am. You are not. Post with more conviction please. If you don't have anything to say don't waste your time replying.

 

[youngjake93]

Youngjake93, that is not more that can be said of any other thing that has been banned from OU. One example is Drizzle + Swift Swim. It destroys every playstyle that isn't rain or a rain counter-team. That is a lot worse than simply weakening a few playstyles, that wouldn't even necessarily be the optimal playstyles even without Stealth Rock. There will always be playstyles that aren't the most viable, because it is impossible for every single playstyle to be balanced.

I'm still convinced that kingdra is a whole lot easier to deal with on weatherless team than venusaur. Ludicolo isn't that damaging and Kabutops isn't that easy to set up.
Plus you can run Sawsbuck+Venusaur and say "well you have to run your own weather to beat it" just the same as sw sw+drizzle. But because rain and sand are more popular, sun was never seen as broken because rain and sand beat it usually.
Chlorodrought strategy ruins everything that isn't a sun-counter team... Rain and sand are just popular. And chlorophyll users suck outside of sun.
However, neither of these have the same level effect as SR because the 4 weathers keep each other in check. Rapid spinners do not keep SR in check, not even close.

@Curtains, Ninjask is NU. If you are afraid of it's presence in OU if rocks were absent, that just goes to show how big SR's effect is on the metagame and how it restricts threats from being viable in OU.