'Kay, thanks for the info!
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Lower Tiers The UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
'Kay, thanks for the info!
I would like to discuss the possibility of Heracross being moved down to B-rank. Compared to Mienshao, it has worse defensive typing, less power, significantly less speed, and no way to maintain momentum against Pokemon that wall it. In return, it only really gains coverage of Psychic-type Pokemon and some bulkiness. Psychic-type Pokemon don't enjoy switching into a U-turn from Mienshao, so this is not a particularly huge gain, and the bulkiness is somewhat negated by the worse defensive typing. The first three issues I have listed are enough to put it one tier lower than Mienshao - and I believe the lack of U-turn may potentially justify putting it one tier lower than that. Heracross is simply walled by too many Pokemon, and it will lose all momentum when one of its counters is switched in. This is a massive difference from Mienshao, who has no true counters thanks to U-turn. In addition, Heracross is vulnerable to being revenge killed by other Choice Scarf users - the same is not true for Mienshao.
I understand that there is more to the ranking than a direct comparison with an S-rank Pokemon that fills very similar roles, however my points still apply without comparison to Mienshao. I chose to compare it to Mienshao simply to show that I find it to be completely outclassed. Looking at it by its own merits, without comparing it to another Pokemon, I feel it is more accurately described by the description of B-rank for offensive Pokemon - there are many Pokemon who it cannot sweep through, either because of their speed or because of their durability, and it lacks a method of circumventing both categories of Pokemon it cannot sweep.
I understand that there is more to the ranking than a direct comparison with an S-rank Pokemon that fills very similar roles, however my points still apply without comparison to Mienshao. I chose to compare it to Mienshao simply to show that I find it to be completely outclassed. Looking at it by its own merits, without comparing it to another Pokemon, I feel it is more accurately described by the description of B-rank for offensive Pokemon - there are many Pokemon who it cannot sweep through, either because of their speed or because of their durability, and it lacks a method of circumventing both categories of Pokemon it cannot sweep.
How do resistance to Grass-, Ground- and Fighting- type attacks make its typing worse to that of Mienshao's? Heracross also has another STAB in Megahorn, which enables it to pick through Psychic and Grass Types harder as well as giving it more spammable attacking move (Slowbro has trouble switching into Megahorn as it is a 2HKO, whereas it can switch in on most Mienshaos). Heracross also has two abilities that differentiates it from Mienshao - Guts and Moxie. Guts can be effectively used in a Substitute+Swords Dance set, making Gligar setup bait, whereas Moxie can be used in a revenge killing Heracross (which isn't very good imo), increasing its attack by simply knocking out a Pokemon. Heracross may not be the best Pokemon in UU at the moment, but it still deserves its placement in A-Rank.
Through extensively using both, I felt that Heracross had the less useful typing for two reasons - first, it takes twice as much damage from Stealth Rock, and second, it gains a 4x weakness to Flying, meaning moves such as Aerial Ace are incredibly lethal, allowing several Pokemon to destroy Heracross with minimal investment other than the moveslot.
The secondary STAB from Megahorn did not impress me when compared to what Mienshao could do. Against Psychic-type Pokemon, Mienshao could typically inflict relevant damage while switching to something that can force it out or even trap it and finish it off in its weakened state with Pursuit (I found Choice Bound Snorlax to be an amazing partner for this purpose). Nearly every Grass-type Pokemon that doesn't have Poison typing is OHKO'd by the sheer power of a neutral Hi Jump Kick - the super-effectiveness of Megahorn isn't necessary. In addition, just like Psychic-type Pokemon, Grass-type Pokemon don't appreciate a U-turn into something that checks or counters them. U-turn into counter aside, less bulky Psychic-type Pokemon still take significant damage from a Reckless Hi Jump Kick, meaning many that are switched in can be 2HKO'd, especially if they've taken even a small amount of prior damage.
As for the abilities, they do provide Heracross something different, however I found them to be significantly weaker than Reckless. Moxie suffers seriously from the fact that your opponent's best counter or check to Heracross will be coming out first - if you can defeat their best answer with an unboosted Heracross, you most likely are not going to need a power boost to defeat their second-best answer. Guts is powerful when it works, but it is incredibly situational compared to the consistent power boost to Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick.
The secondary STAB from Megahorn did not impress me when compared to what Mienshao could do. Against Psychic-type Pokemon, Mienshao could typically inflict relevant damage while switching to something that can force it out or even trap it and finish it off in its weakened state with Pursuit (I found Choice Bound Snorlax to be an amazing partner for this purpose). Nearly every Grass-type Pokemon that doesn't have Poison typing is OHKO'd by the sheer power of a neutral Hi Jump Kick - the super-effectiveness of Megahorn isn't necessary. In addition, just like Psychic-type Pokemon, Grass-type Pokemon don't appreciate a U-turn into something that checks or counters them. U-turn into counter aside, less bulky Psychic-type Pokemon still take significant damage from a Reckless Hi Jump Kick, meaning many that are switched in can be 2HKO'd, especially if they've taken even a small amount of prior damage.
As for the abilities, they do provide Heracross something different, however I found them to be significantly weaker than Reckless. Moxie suffers seriously from the fact that your opponent's best counter or check to Heracross will be coming out first - if you can defeat their best answer with an unboosted Heracross, you most likely are not going to need a power boost to defeat their second-best answer. Guts is powerful when it works, but it is incredibly situational compared to the consistent power boost to Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick.
Heracross may receive competition from Mienshao, but he's in no way outclassed by her. First of all, you severely underestimate Heracross's typing. Being able to switch in on Ground and Grass-type moves is a huge boon for Heracross. The 4X Flying weakness is really irrelevant; name one relevant Flying-type attack that OHKO's Heracross that doesn't OHKO Mienshao as well.
Yeah, Reckless Hi Jump Kick hurts like hell, but it only works 90% of the time. That's a majority, yes, but the other 10% of the time, Mienshao's just going to kill herself without doing anything. And I'm not even going to mention how much Mienshao is scared of Pokemon with Protect. Now compare that to Heracross's Close Combat, which works all of the time, assuming it's not against a Ghost-type.
I understand the scenario you laid out with Moxie, but you're forgetting that Moxie comes with a major advantage in that it discourages your opponent from death-foddering Pokemon to it. It's a major risk to sack something to Heracross because he'll get a free boost from it, so your opponent is forced to switch out and lose momentum. Sacking things to Mienshao, however, is still a perfectly viable solution, and can keep you from losing your ground.
Ultimately, yes, I would probably have to say Mienshao is the better Fighting-type (although I'd probably also say Mienshao is the best Pokemon in the tier). But Heracross still has a reason to be A-Rank regardless.
You have good points. The 4x weakness to Flying-type attacks is certainly relevant, however. Much like a physical attacker's HP Ice, Aerial Ace will not OHKO Mienshao despite its frailty, whereas it will OHKO Heracross.
Moxie was not useful for me in the fifteen battles I used it in before switching to Guts, and it has not ever been relevant against me. It is possible that this is due to the small sample size of my usage with it, although it seems extremely situational, much like Guts.
I used Heracross again for the first time in two weeks for the sake of this discussion, and I realised that I was taking its typing for granted. This is what stands out most to me and helps justify an A-rank most - although the typing does have some faults defensively, it also gives Heracross many more opportunities to switch in than Mienshao. I still think it is fairly close, but I can agree with the decision to have Heracross placed in A-rank.
Moxie was not useful for me in the fifteen battles I used it in before switching to Guts, and it has not ever been relevant against me. It is possible that this is due to the small sample size of my usage with it, although it seems extremely situational, much like Guts.
I used Heracross again for the first time in two weeks for the sake of this discussion, and I realised that I was taking its typing for granted. This is what stands out most to me and helps justify an A-rank most - although the typing does have some faults defensively, it also gives Heracross many more opportunities to switch in than Mienshao. I still think it is fairly close, but I can agree with the decision to have Heracross placed in A-rank.
Nothing uses aerial ace though aside from Mienshao. Which is hardly relevant since Mineshao can OHKO other Mineshao anyway with Hi Jump Kick while against Heracross it would have to lock itself into a weak 60bp move.
Hitmonlee only has a single viable set, which happens to be somewhat dependent on surprise factor. As it becomes more widespread, you will see significantly less success with it, as the playerbase becomes aware that it relies on Endure to be relevant. In addition to being weaker without the surprise factor, it also lacks the capability to sweep many teams after it does successfully set up. It is walled by some of the most common physical walls in the format, such as Gligar, Slowbro, and Cofagrigus, and most other Psychic- and Ghost-type Pokemon. Depending on which coverage moves it uses, it is also stopped short by Poison-type Pokemon, Flying-type Pokemon, or Dark-type Pokemon with priority attacks. Finally, even with appropriate coverage, defensive Poison- and Flying-type Pokemon can survive a single super-effective attack, allowing them to check Hitmonlee.
Hitmonlee is an all-or-nothing Pokemon. It can not switch out after committing to Endure. It is also a situational Pokemon, relying on your opponent to enable your Hitmonlee. Given the large number of hard counters, checks, and potential counters depending upon its moveset, it cannot sweep significant portions of the metagame. Hitmonlee is also not versatile. It is only capable of running one set well, and the very nature of that set means that it becoming the standard weakens the set. All of these factors combined lead me to oppose Hitmonlee's inclusion in A-rank.
Hitmonlee is an all-or-nothing Pokemon. It can not switch out after committing to Endure. It is also a situational Pokemon, relying on your opponent to enable your Hitmonlee. Given the large number of hard counters, checks, and potential counters depending upon its moveset, it cannot sweep significant portions of the metagame. Hitmonlee is also not versatile. It is only capable of running one set well, and the very nature of that set means that it becoming the standard weakens the set. All of these factors combined lead me to oppose Hitmonlee's inclusion in A-rank.
You still have to actually provide an argument though....
In general there isn't much reason to use Hitmonlee over the other Fighting types of the tier. UU is much more prepared for Fighting types than RU is, and even in RU it isn't hard to stop Hitmonlee from doing its Unburden shenanigans. Stopping Hitmonlee is even easier in UU thanks to Cofagrigus' ability Mummy, not like Hitmonlee can really do much to Cofagrigus in the first place.
Hitmonlee has a small niche due to the fact that it has Unburden. You can just drop Fake Out @Normal Gem, and then Hitmonlee proceeds to outspeed everything and kill them. The +2 speed is really painful for opposing Hyper Offense teams to face, and even balanced teams if you have a way to remove ghosts (see: CB Snorlax). Also, unlike Mienshao and Heracross, you aren't forced to lock yourself into an attack, so it's harder to take down late-game.
However, PTJon does bring up some valid points. UU is much better prepared for Fighting-types, since the metagame has pretty much revolved around Moxie Heracross since it was released, and then Scarf Mienshao came along later. Pokemon like Cofagrigus aren't easy to take out if you don't pack a pursuiter. You also have to sufficiently weaken your opponent's bulky pokemon, as Hitmonlee does not have a way to boost its attack. I'd like to see Hitmonlee in C-rank, as it takes quite a bit of support against anything that isn't Hyper Offense, but still has the potential to be a devastating late-game cleaner.
However, PTJon does bring up some valid points. UU is much better prepared for Fighting-types, since the metagame has pretty much revolved around Moxie Heracross since it was released, and then Scarf Mienshao came along later. Pokemon like Cofagrigus aren't easy to take out if you don't pack a pursuiter. You also have to sufficiently weaken your opponent's bulky pokemon, as Hitmonlee does not have a way to boost its attack. I'd like to see Hitmonlee in C-rank, as it takes quite a bit of support against anything that isn't Hyper Offense, but still has the potential to be a devastating late-game cleaner.
It wasn't really identified what set was brought up in the first place. Even with that set I don't think Hitmonlee is worthy of more than C tier. Priority attacks are common in UU (Aqua Jet, ESpeed, Ice Shard, Mach Punch) and as I said before UU is more prepared for Fighting types. Ghosts are everywhere, Hitmontop is one of the most common walls in the tier, and then theres Gligar.
How exactly is it "not strong enough to cut it in UU" when it has base 120 Attack, and uses Adamant? That gives it more power than jolly Heracross/Mienshao, which is what they typically run.
I also agree with PTJon7, in the fact that priority is way too common in UU for the reversal set to be consistent. Revolving around an attack that needs you to be at 1 HP is pretty hard to pull off. Not to mention that if you opt for Earthquake, the set is absolutely useless against any Hail teams. (Not common, but worth mentioning.) So no matter which set we're talking about, I still think Hitmonlee ends up in C-tier.
Just to add to the list of counters, bulky psychics also need to be dealt with or have considerable prior damage inflicted (sucker punch is not nearly reliable enough to deal with them).
I disagree with Victini being S rank. I have played across many different accounts in UU, and in almost EVERY team, I use Victini. I am saying because I want everyone to know what the hell I'm talking about. Victini is, without a doubt, A rank material. Victini has 2 primary sets: Choice Scarfed and Choice Banded. Scarfed makes it one of the best avengers in the UU metagame. There are a couple more sets, but I'll get to that after I explain these sets.
The Choice Scarfed Set: This set boasts avenging fallen friends while keeping momentum. The typical moves on this set, as you all know, are U-Turn, V-Create, Zen Headbutt, and Bolt Strike. U-Turn is great for momentum which I will not take away from Victini. However, V-Create is where the problem begins. It has a colossal 180 BP which hits as hard as Jolly Scarfed Mienshao's HJK, but the drawbacks are staggering. To lower speed and both defenses by one stage is horrid. This makes Victini EXTREMELY susceptible to pursuit trappers. Because of this, many players will be forced to U-turn, which is very easy to play around. Not only that, most UU pursuit users are indeed Dark type, which means Zen-Headbutt, another move is completely useless. Bolt-Strike, although great, doesn't hit hard enough without being Adamant or Banded. This set must be use very carefully, and even when used carefully, cannot hit hard enough due to the abundance of bulky water types in UU. Victini has competition from the other hard hitting fire types, namely Darmanitan and Arc which makes it quite natural that UU will be filled with bulk fire resists (ie: Rhy, Blastoise, Swampert). Now, that being said, of all the Fire types, I would say Victini is the best (Bar Chandy).
Choice banded set: This set hits like a semi-truck slipping on oil. It spanks pokemon harder to the point where I think those who take the hit are pornflick bitches. This wallbreaker is nothing to mess with; however, it doesn't have much utility outside of that. Snorlax walls it to hell, the premium SPECIAL wall of UU. This set NEEDS hazards support, and often times (don't quote), I feel that 2 V-Creates from a ScarfedTini will hit around the same as a single V-Create from a BandTini. This set has the same problems as the Scarfed Set; however, it doesn't have the speed to dodge attacks.
Now, there are 3 other sets I have used: SpecialTini, EBelt Mixed, and TR Sun Spammer.
SpecialTini is walled by ALL the Walls. Blue Flare, Psyshock, Glaciate, and Grass Knot. The only thing this set has going for it is surprise value. Grass Knot pretty much OHK's or 2HK's all the main counters; however, after it has taken out these counters, it is walled and easy to predict. Its base 100SpA isn't doing much for Victini. Being walled by Snorlax is not something I look for in Victini. The ScarfedTini can Flinchhax with Zen Headbutt at least!
Ebelt Mixed: Ah, not bad. V-Create, U-Turn, Psychic, and Glaciate. The utility I see for this one (in all of the games) is the break common suicide leads with a combo of Glaciate and V-Create...namely Azelf and Frosslass. It doesn't hit too hard on either side because generally you invest in one type of attack. Lowering it's respectable 100/100/100 defenses are not something you want to do. If you want a hard hitting fire type with bulk, it's Victini. Don't ruin it. If you don't mind the defense drops, use Darm!
TR Sun. Set up TR and Sun, spam V-create and Solarbeam. Its usual counters are already slower (faster in TR) by the time the first V-Create comes around--even with -Spe + 0 Speed IVs. Sun boosted V-Create does hit hard as hell, but it takes too long to set up. Mine as well use Cofag, you feel me?
-Some other problems:
-Susceptible to all Hazards.
-Pursuit Problems
-Usually has 1 hard counter depending on set
-Momentum killer if not using U-Turn (unless against Stall, but if you use stall, you shouldn't have to worry about V-Creates)
That being said, Victini is still an EXCELLENT Pokemon, and is a much better physical fire type than Darm, in my opinion. It has respectable bulk and has average utility and attacking power. I would recommend it as the general scarfer of the UU meta.
Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree.
The Choice Scarfed Set: This set boasts avenging fallen friends while keeping momentum. The typical moves on this set, as you all know, are U-Turn, V-Create, Zen Headbutt, and Bolt Strike. U-Turn is great for momentum which I will not take away from Victini. However, V-Create is where the problem begins. It has a colossal 180 BP which hits as hard as Jolly Scarfed Mienshao's HJK, but the drawbacks are staggering. To lower speed and both defenses by one stage is horrid. This makes Victini EXTREMELY susceptible to pursuit trappers. Because of this, many players will be forced to U-turn, which is very easy to play around. Not only that, most UU pursuit users are indeed Dark type, which means Zen-Headbutt, another move is completely useless. Bolt-Strike, although great, doesn't hit hard enough without being Adamant or Banded. This set must be use very carefully, and even when used carefully, cannot hit hard enough due to the abundance of bulky water types in UU. Victini has competition from the other hard hitting fire types, namely Darmanitan and Arc which makes it quite natural that UU will be filled with bulk fire resists (ie: Rhy, Blastoise, Swampert). Now, that being said, of all the Fire types, I would say Victini is the best (Bar Chandy).
Choice banded set: This set hits like a semi-truck slipping on oil. It spanks pokemon harder to the point where I think those who take the hit are pornflick bitches. This wallbreaker is nothing to mess with; however, it doesn't have much utility outside of that. Snorlax walls it to hell, the premium SPECIAL wall of UU. This set NEEDS hazards support, and often times (don't quote), I feel that 2 V-Creates from a ScarfedTini will hit around the same as a single V-Create from a BandTini. This set has the same problems as the Scarfed Set; however, it doesn't have the speed to dodge attacks.
Now, there are 3 other sets I have used: SpecialTini, EBelt Mixed, and TR Sun Spammer.
SpecialTini is walled by ALL the Walls. Blue Flare, Psyshock, Glaciate, and Grass Knot. The only thing this set has going for it is surprise value. Grass Knot pretty much OHK's or 2HK's all the main counters; however, after it has taken out these counters, it is walled and easy to predict. Its base 100SpA isn't doing much for Victini. Being walled by Snorlax is not something I look for in Victini. The ScarfedTini can Flinchhax with Zen Headbutt at least!
Ebelt Mixed: Ah, not bad. V-Create, U-Turn, Psychic, and Glaciate. The utility I see for this one (in all of the games) is the break common suicide leads with a combo of Glaciate and V-Create...namely Azelf and Frosslass. It doesn't hit too hard on either side because generally you invest in one type of attack. Lowering it's respectable 100/100/100 defenses are not something you want to do. If you want a hard hitting fire type with bulk, it's Victini. Don't ruin it. If you don't mind the defense drops, use Darm!
TR Sun. Set up TR and Sun, spam V-create and Solarbeam. Its usual counters are already slower (faster in TR) by the time the first V-Create comes around--even with -Spe + 0 Speed IVs. Sun boosted V-Create does hit hard as hell, but it takes too long to set up. Mine as well use Cofag, you feel me?
-Some other problems:
-Susceptible to all Hazards.
-Pursuit Problems
-Usually has 1 hard counter depending on set
-Momentum killer if not using U-Turn (unless against Stall, but if you use stall, you shouldn't have to worry about V-Creates)
That being said, Victini is still an EXCELLENT Pokemon, and is a much better physical fire type than Darm, in my opinion. It has respectable bulk and has average utility and attacking power. I would recommend it as the general scarfer of the UU meta.
Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree.
Krookodile, Houndoom, Honchkrow, and Spiritomb are the only viable dark type pursuit users, Krookodile and Spiritomb are pretty uncommon, and honchkrow is rarely seen using pursuit. Victini was voted S-Rank because of it's very powerful mixed attacking set, (along with many other reasons) which you have listed using Glaciate....? It has no reason to use Glaciate since with average damage rolls it can 2HKO Gligar with a combination of V-Create+Blue Flare+Rocks with a +spatk nature. The only switch in for a moveset consisting of Blue Flare/Vcreate/Psychic/Grass Knot is Snorlax because everything else is KO'd with V-Create+coverage move iirc, definitely with rocks, this set acts as a great lure to get rid of cofag and gligar allowing fighting types to ruin their team since 2 of these pokemon on the same team is unlikely. Once the opponent learns it is mixed it isn't easy to wall because it is still hard to switch in to. The defense drops aren't really a problem at all since you can just.....switch out? Yes it is stealth rock weak, but so is togekiss and zapdos (although they do have recovery). You say that Bolt Strike doesn't hit hard enough without an adamant nature but it 2HKO's slowbro with stealth rock and spikes up which isn't hard at all considering the great spike and spinblockers in the tier. Yes Victini cannot spam fire attacks with bulky waters around but this is one thing it does great by luring in bulky waters, u turning out and going into a different pkmn to handle them, like roserade to get up more spikes, but tbh if you're using a CS Victini you're using it wrong.
The banded set is freaking powerful and doesn't even mind Blastoise, Milotic, Gligar, or Swampert coming in, it just V-Creates anyways, as all of those pokemon, it's usual switch-ins, are 2HKO'd with SR+Spikes anyways. Band Victini doesn't need hazards for 3/4 of those pokemon, since 2/4 don't have recovery outside rest and gligar is 2hko'd anyways.
I already defended the special/mixed set, and I'm just going to pretend that your cat jumped on your keyboard and typed that bit about the TR sun set.
TR Sun Victini is a set that wasn't too bad when Snover was being tested. I'd like to see how you would deal with that with a standard team.
Very few times will you see a battle where Spikes and SR's are up. I don't understand why people assume it's going to be up for the bulk of the match. A Toxic'd Cofag isn't gonna be doing much against a HO team.
The mixed set is made for a lure? It's so ANOTHER Pokemon can finish up the job. In a strong sense, it's just a support 'Mon. +SpA nature? In a Meta this fast-paced, there is almost no room for Offensive Pokes to run a +SpA/Atk Nature. Please, run an Adamant Scarfed Mienshao and tell me how that goes.
Zapdos is a better candidate for S ranked because of the sets it can run, and the effectiveness of those sets. A 3-Attacking Set with Roost and Life Orb is a monster. It gets ridiculous coverage and power--not to mention it can stall Mon's with pressure. It can run a Sub-Toxic Set that can wreck stall teams without a Cleric. Togekiss can run a Para-Flinching set that does WORK. It can run Thunder Wave or Body Slam to spread paralysis, missing fairly uncommon Gorlurk, which is quickly dispatched due to the lackluster speed and Special Def.
Victini as a Lure is good. I do not recall saying it can not. However, it NEEDS Hazards to do work consistently. The bulk of teams run one of the 3 big Special Walls (P2, Umb, Snor), and most others run a bulky water to go along (Blastoise, Pert). A mixed set cannot hit either effectively. A banded set is easier to play around than a Scarfed Set. Again, run a Banded Shao team and see how far you get. The Metagame doesn't allow for slow, hard hitters. If you want a prime example, look at Nasty Room Cof. It needs that TR to do work. The speed drops from V-Create are too much of a drawback to be able to spam as a "master move."
Like I said, Victini does a job pretty well, above average without a doubt; however, it has the same syndrome as Mew, "Jack of all Trades, Master of None." It can be an effective Avenger, Wallbreaker, or Lure, but again, the disadvantages are too much for it to consistently pull off.
Very few times will you see a battle where Spikes and SR's are up. I don't understand why people assume it's going to be up for the bulk of the match. A Toxic'd Cofag isn't gonna be doing much against a HO team.
The mixed set is made for a lure? It's so ANOTHER Pokemon can finish up the job. In a strong sense, it's just a support 'Mon. +SpA nature? In a Meta this fast-paced, there is almost no room for Offensive Pokes to run a +SpA/Atk Nature. Please, run an Adamant Scarfed Mienshao and tell me how that goes.
Zapdos is a better candidate for S ranked because of the sets it can run, and the effectiveness of those sets. A 3-Attacking Set with Roost and Life Orb is a monster. It gets ridiculous coverage and power--not to mention it can stall Mon's with pressure. It can run a Sub-Toxic Set that can wreck stall teams without a Cleric. Togekiss can run a Para-Flinching set that does WORK. It can run Thunder Wave or Body Slam to spread paralysis, missing fairly uncommon Gorlurk, which is quickly dispatched due to the lackluster speed and Special Def.
Victini as a Lure is good. I do not recall saying it can not. However, it NEEDS Hazards to do work consistently. The bulk of teams run one of the 3 big Special Walls (P2, Umb, Snor), and most others run a bulky water to go along (Blastoise, Pert). A mixed set cannot hit either effectively. A banded set is easier to play around than a Scarfed Set. Again, run a Banded Shao team and see how far you get. The Metagame doesn't allow for slow, hard hitters. If you want a prime example, look at Nasty Room Cof. It needs that TR to do work. The speed drops from V-Create are too much of a drawback to be able to spam as a "master move."
Like I said, Victini does a job pretty well, above average without a doubt; however, it has the same syndrome as Mew, "Jack of all Trades, Master of None." It can be an effective Avenger, Wallbreaker, or Lure, but again, the disadvantages are too much for it to consistently pull off.
It's hard to set up both TR and sun and you need both for your moveset to work. Why did you bring in "toxic'd cofag"? And yeah it is pretty easy to have spikes+SR up in a match. The mixed set lets another team member finish up the job because it lures in it's checks/counters. Victini can run a +spatk nature because it doesnt miss the speed and it appreciates the power. I find it pretty humorous that you question me saying that victini is a good lure yet you say that it is later on in your post. Hazards help mixed victini out by weakening these walls so they can't keep switching out like you assume, and keep in mind that all of those walls don't appreciate Focus Blast, which is actually the standard. The metagame doesn't allow for slow, heavy hitters? Specs Chandelure, Banded Heracross, Specs Slowbro, Specs Kingdra, Nidoking/Queen, Machamp, Honchkrow say otherwise.
Let's look at these "problems" you have laid out for us.
-Susceptible to all hazards, ya I'll give you that one, the only way to migiate that is a spinner and wish support.
-Pursuit problems, by what? The pursuit users I listed aren't very common and are outsped save for houndoom, then it is a 50/50 chance that you'll get them with pursuit or not, then that leaves snorlax, which can't switch in so victini either gets one kill so your opponent can bring in snorlax or you see the RK coming and you switch out Victini.
Usually one hard counter depending on set, every S-Rank Pokemon has 1-Hard counter depending on the set (exaggerating)
Kingdra-Slowking
Mienshao-Cofag
Raikou-Camerupt, any bulky ground type when it is not carrying hp grass, with hp grass it is checked/countered by other things.
Snorlax-Defensive-Cobalion
Offensive-Gligar
Togekiss-Inner Focus Umbreon
Zapdos-see Raikou
It hits hard, it can run a few different sets, it can lure in checks to say hera and mienshao, be a great RKer, wallbreaker, the only thing hindering it is hazards.
Nominating Dusclops for D-Rank.
I know I'm going to get criticized, but I think that dusclops deserves D-Rank more than E-Rank. While it is a horrible pokemon, it has many good traits that make it more fit for D-Rank. First off, it has an amazing typing by UU Standards since it allows dusclops to wall mienshao, heracross and other fighting types not names Scrafty. Second of all, its going to be VERY hard to kill since even Chandelures shadow ball can't OHKO it. Pain split can migate the damage taken most of the time because of dusclop's low HP. Thirdly, he has a very useful ability in pressure, which allows it to stall out CCs, blizzards ETC.
Obviusly dusclops is outclassed by cofagrigus in most roles, but he isn't unviable in the tier. I Feel that D-tier is more suited for it than it than E-tier. (Please don't kill me).
I know I'm going to get criticized, but I think that dusclops deserves D-Rank more than E-Rank. While it is a horrible pokemon, it has many good traits that make it more fit for D-Rank. First off, it has an amazing typing by UU Standards since it allows dusclops to wall mienshao, heracross and other fighting types not names Scrafty. Second of all, its going to be VERY hard to kill since even Chandelures shadow ball can't OHKO it. Pain split can migate the damage taken most of the time because of dusclop's low HP. Thirdly, he has a very useful ability in pressure, which allows it to stall out CCs, blizzards ETC.
Obviusly dusclops is outclassed by cofagrigus in most roles, but he isn't unviable in the tier. I Feel that D-tier is more suited for it than it than E-tier. (Please don't kill me).
Lol.
Meh, I guess it doesn't really matter when something is that low, It's just there to show new players how bad it is.
Dusclops for D-Rank
Dusclops to D seems pretty reasonable to me. It's still pretty bad, but not useless as it can wall stuff like Fighting Types and it is bulky enough to live weak SE hits and retaliate with Toxic. It's also bulkier than Cofagrigus, but no recovery and shitty attacking stats hurt it. I'm fine either way though.
I personally think that Gligar deserves to be move to B rank.
This is because of it's ability to wall the living sh*t out of almost every physical attacking pokemon in the tier with it's base 105 defense stat, eviolite, reliable recovery in roost, and unbreakable through toxic stall due to it's immunity. Not only does it wall fighting types, but at full HP it can outstall a huge portion of physical attackers due to taunt preventing them from setting up Swords Dance. Furthermore, it is able to set up Stealth Rock, almost a necessity in today's competitive pokemon scene, whilst doing it very easily coming in on a choice locked physical attacker, or one of which it walls completely. Here are some calcs to show how well it walls some of the top tier physical UU threats.
Gligar is one of the best physically defensive walls of UU, as it can outstall and tank hits so well from a lot of major threats in the UU tier, as listed above in the calcs section. This is just my opinion, I just think it's a good discussion to have. What do you guys think about Gligar in UU? should it be moved to B? Should it stay in C? Have a good discussion :^D
This is because of it's ability to wall the living sh*t out of almost every physical attacking pokemon in the tier with it's base 105 defense stat, eviolite, reliable recovery in roost, and unbreakable through toxic stall due to it's immunity. Not only does it wall fighting types, but at full HP it can outstall a huge portion of physical attackers due to taunt preventing them from setting up Swords Dance. Furthermore, it is able to set up Stealth Rock, almost a necessity in today's competitive pokemon scene, whilst doing it very easily coming in on a choice locked physical attacker, or one of which it walls completely. Here are some calcs to show how well it walls some of the top tier physical UU threats.
- 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 65-77 (19.46 - 23.05%) -- possible 5HKO
- 252+ Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 55-65 (16.46 - 19.46%) -- possible 6HKO
- 252+ Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 84-100 (25.14 - 29.94%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
- 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 171-202 (51.19 - 60.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 117-138 (35.02 - 41.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 16+ Atk Rhyperior Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 57-72 (17.06 - 21.55%) -- possible 5HKO
Gligar is one of the best physically defensive walls of UU, as it can outstall and tank hits so well from a lot of major threats in the UU tier, as listed above in the calcs section. This is just my opinion, I just think it's a good discussion to have. What do you guys think about Gligar in UU? should it be moved to B? Should it stay in C? Have a good discussion :^D