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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]
- Thread starter ganj4lF
- Start date
I'd like to propose this option for team 2
Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf/Lum Berry (Item choice open to debate)
Shadow Tag
Timid 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 SpD
-Trick
-Psychic
-HP Fire
-Thunderbolt
The idea of this gothitelle is not only to be able to trap slowbro, but other potential picks of team 1. By threatening to trap slowbro with this, team 1 loses their only safe switch-in to terrakion, thus forcing them to pick yet another counter to terrakion (if possible), or be forced to guess what attack banded terrakion will use, and hope to guess correctly.
To explain, there only (I think, not so sure) three options left that can counter band terrakion that team 1 can pick are
-Hippowdon (Probably the most annoying, but also has to be careful of gothitelle if it hasn't tricked it's item yet, won't really enjoy rotom W threatening it)
-Golurk (Can be taken advatage of in other ways, no reliable healing, will not like rotom-w)
-Nidoqueen (no reliable healing, will not like rotom-w, will have problem with gothitelle)
Checks could be more problematic (pursuit users or set up mons), so I've tried to use moves that can hit undesirable switch-ins reasonably hard. If they choose tyrannitar to pursuit, they MUST pick another terrakion counter, or they are in trouble. Scizor would be a problem, but can't switch safely into terrakion at least, and currently doesn't fare too well against rotom, and poorly vs zapdos.
Set-up mons...ferrothorn would be a thorn in the side (pun intended) as it could easily set hazards while we're locked into thunderbolt, hence my decision to slash an item to see which you'd all prefer, since both items would have merit. Other pokemon that set-up can be dealt with using pick 5, as depending on the set-up poke, we could get both rocks and phazing happening for that, though that'd be restrictive for team 2...
EDIT: Disregard this, my final gothitelle submission can be found further down the page.
Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf/Lum Berry (Item choice open to debate)
Shadow Tag
Timid 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 SpD
-Trick
-Psychic
-HP Fire
-Thunderbolt
The idea of this gothitelle is not only to be able to trap slowbro, but other potential picks of team 1. By threatening to trap slowbro with this, team 1 loses their only safe switch-in to terrakion, thus forcing them to pick yet another counter to terrakion (if possible), or be forced to guess what attack banded terrakion will use, and hope to guess correctly.
To explain, there only (I think, not so sure) three options left that can counter band terrakion that team 1 can pick are
-Hippowdon (Probably the most annoying, but also has to be careful of gothitelle if it hasn't tricked it's item yet, won't really enjoy rotom W threatening it)
-Golurk (Can be taken advatage of in other ways, no reliable healing, will not like rotom-w)
-Nidoqueen (no reliable healing, will not like rotom-w, will have problem with gothitelle)
Checks could be more problematic (pursuit users or set up mons), so I've tried to use moves that can hit undesirable switch-ins reasonably hard. If they choose tyrannitar to pursuit, they MUST pick another terrakion counter, or they are in trouble. Scizor would be a problem, but can't switch safely into terrakion at least, and currently doesn't fare too well against rotom, and poorly vs zapdos.
Set-up mons...ferrothorn would be a thorn in the side (pun intended) as it could easily set hazards while we're locked into thunderbolt, hence my decision to slash an item to see which you'd all prefer, since both items would have merit. Other pokemon that set-up can be dealt with using pick 5, as depending on the set-up poke, we could get both rocks and phazing happening for that, though that'd be restrictive for team 2...
EDIT: Disregard this, my final gothitelle submission can be found further down the page.
Gothitelle would make the team more weak to Ttar(Zapdos, Jirachi) which is an issue here. Scizor could be a counterpick to Gothitelle, as CB U-turn could OHKO and strategy falls flat.
As I said earlier, a list might be helpful for discussion and for new sets to check before they post another set:
Agility Thundurus-T
Choice Band Scizor
LO Infernape
Leftovers Celebi
Choice Scarf Victini
LO Chandelure
LO Garchomp
Fighting Gem Breloom
Choice Scarf/Lum Berry Gothitelle
Life Orb Latios
Agility Thundurus-T sounds good, but I'm worried as to the multiple electric-types: a ground-type like SpDef Quagsire could threaten to wall the team
Choice Band Scizor: One of my favorites, forms a good Voltturn core and is a sound choice. The only issue I see is if Scizor is locked into a move might cause some issues
LO Infernape: Seems to be a little fragile. Also, Slowbro can T-Wave Infernape and then Scald back. It can SLack Off any damage taken.
Leftovers Celebi: After reading some comments, might be walled a little, but has potential
Will post on the others later, just wanted to start discussing each option at this point of time.
As I said earlier, a list might be helpful for discussion and for new sets to check before they post another set:
Agility Thundurus-T
Choice Band Scizor
LO Infernape
Leftovers Celebi
Choice Scarf Victini
LO Chandelure
LO Garchomp
Fighting Gem Breloom
Choice Scarf/Lum Berry Gothitelle
Life Orb Latios
Agility Thundurus-T sounds good, but I'm worried as to the multiple electric-types: a ground-type like SpDef Quagsire could threaten to wall the team
Choice Band Scizor: One of my favorites, forms a good Voltturn core and is a sound choice. The only issue I see is if Scizor is locked into a move might cause some issues
LO Infernape: Seems to be a little fragile. Also, Slowbro can T-Wave Infernape and then Scald back. It can SLack Off any damage taken.
Leftovers Celebi: After reading some comments, might be walled a little, but has potential
Will post on the others later, just wanted to start discussing each option at this point of time.
Did you even read my reasoning? Gothtelle traps slowbro, which is currently the only thing standing between terrakion running rampart. Tyrannitar would compound team 1's issues with terrakion. Also, CB scizor would beat it, but again, gothitelle has done it's job by then. We have good switches to scizor (zapdos, and to a lesser extent, rotom-W), while they have nothing to switch into terrakion. Alternatively, gothitelle can revenge Banded Scizor with HP Fire if it locks itself into the wrong move against our team.
I'm not denying it, simply stating that Scizor COULD be an issue: doesn't mean the same as IS an issue.
As for Slowbro, Slowbro can T-wave Gothitelle, outspeed (after T-wave it actually does), use flamethrower and slack off any damage. Lum berry does deal with it so I would prefer running Lum Berry(tricking Choice Scarf is cool, but Slowbro can always Scald and burn which is why Lum Berry is better, allowing Gothitelle to counter successfully)
As for Slowbro, Slowbro can T-wave Gothitelle, outspeed (after T-wave it actually does), use flamethrower and slack off any damage. Lum berry does deal with it so I would prefer running Lum Berry(tricking Choice Scarf is cool, but Slowbro can always Scald and burn which is why Lum Berry is better, allowing Gothitelle to counter successfully)
You asked, thou shall reseaveth.
252+ SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 0- SpD Jirachi: 522-614 (133.5 - 157.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 374-444 (94.92 - 112.69%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 280-330 (87.77 - 103.44%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
All those are without SR, therefore, they are guaranteed after SR. He outspeeds Rachi and (obviously) Slowbro so they cannot switch in whatsoever. Here are calcs for Heatran:
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 348-412 (107.4 - 127.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 252-300 (65.45 - 77.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Offensive Heatran is OHKO'd while the SpD Heatran gets 2HKO'd easily. Of course the pink blobs and Snorlax deal with him just fine, but they cannot take a physical hit at all.
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ground vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 182-216 (47.15 - 55.95%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO
The main pursuiter cannot safely deal with him either. All this with Leftovers, too.
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psyshock
At first you might go 'lol role stacking with rotom-w', but if you look at the coverage both of these pokemons give, they are pretty different, and almost cover all the types, making them have somewhat of a good synergy.
The moveset is for having as much coverage as possible, while dealing high damage.
Against Landorus:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 361-426 (113.16 - 133.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Latios outspeeds Landorus and ohkos it with a surf, so i dont think i need to show what Landorus can do to latios.
Against Slowbro:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 359-422 (91.11 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The chances of OHKOing the slowbro is not 100% without stealth rocks, making it a bit bothersome as slowbro can easily risk the hit and twaving the latios, making it not very efficient anymore. The good thing is, if we have stealth rocks down in the field, it gets ohkoed 100% of them time.
If you are worrying about how much slowbro can do,
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 40-48 (13.24 - 15.89%) -- possible 7HKO
it is not much at all really.
Against jirachi:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Jirachi: 221-263 (54.7 - 65.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Well, they chose naive as a nature for jirachi, and i dont think it will work well for it. Latios easily 2HKOs Jirachi with HP fire, and it outspeeds rachi, so no problems about flinching with iron head.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Jirachi: 166-196 (41.08 - 48.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even if Jirachi comes in to take the draco for slowbro, it aint going to end well for rachi as 41~48% is a pretty huge chunk. Latios has to switch out after that, but it left some pretty deep scars on the Jirachi.
80 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 112-133 (37.08 - 44.03%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
jirachi 3hkos latios from full health, and maybe a 2hko if it used its life orb too much, but that would not be a problem, as jirachi would only be getting a maximum of 1 hit on latios, unless it icy winds, which does 28.47 - 33.77%. This would result in 77.8% of its hp maximum, if you are very unlucky to get 2 max rolls on the latios.
In conclusion, I think that Latios should be picked on the bases that it can ohko/2hko quite a number of pokemon, its coverage does not clash with rotom-w too much, and it counters the opponent's team.
I shall just add some calcs to your list if you don't mind.
252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Hidden Power Ground vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 159-187 (41.19 - 48.44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Ttar vs chandy: Stone Edge: 226.41 - 267.16% Crunch: 181.13 - 213.58% Pursuit: 90.56 - 107.16% Superpower: 0 - 0%
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 499-588 (188.3 - 221.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 236-278 (89.05 - 104.9%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
Heatrans may be offensive, and most likely if offensive, carry the air balloon.
EDIT: I am assuming you use life orb because that was the set posted earlier.
but, if you want lefties, this is how much is done to a ttar.
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ground vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 122-144 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 87.52% chance to 3HKO
I am sorry if i am making you look stupid in any way. I am just putting in the calcs that you missed out. Forgive me.
Based on the calcs, Chandelure sounds pretty interesting to me as an option
As for Life Orb Latios, it compounds our weakness to ice, which isn't a good thing to do, especially considering Team 1 gets the last pick, meaning a Poke like Mamoswine could cause issues for our team(example,please do not try and prove how blah blah counters Mamoswine because that isn't the point - the point is that Ice is a fairly common attacking type and leaving our team weak to it doesn't seem particularly endearing to me).
Overall, my favorites are these(no order)
CB Scizor
LO Chandelure
Lum Berry Gothitelle
Leftovers Celebi
As for Life Orb Latios, it compounds our weakness to ice, which isn't a good thing to do, especially considering Team 1 gets the last pick, meaning a Poke like Mamoswine could cause issues for our team(example,please do not try and prove how blah blah counters Mamoswine because that isn't the point - the point is that Ice is a fairly common attacking type and leaving our team weak to it doesn't seem particularly endearing to me).
Overall, my favorites are these(no order)
CB Scizor
LO Chandelure
Lum Berry Gothitelle
Leftovers Celebi
Okay, so I was looking at other potentially viable SR setters (mostly Heatran jn anticipation of the grass counter picks to Slowbro but Heatran doesn't do much else so it would be a poor choice now) and I have to say Garchomp is definitely the best choice here. Both Bronzong and Skarmory would be poor counterpicks because of how poorly they fare against the rest of the team and while I was at first worried about Balloon Heatran a quick calc calmed that concern.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 242-285 (62.69 - 73.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means that Heatran is only going to be able to come in twice with SR up before a +2 Outrage is sure to KO on the third switch-in. On top of that, Balloon Heatran also does terribly against the rest of the team so overall Garchomp has really good synergy with Team 2 right now.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 242-285 (62.69 - 73.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means that Heatran is only going to be able to come in twice with SR up before a +2 Outrage is sure to KO on the third switch-in. On top of that, Balloon Heatran also does terribly against the rest of the team so overall Garchomp has really good synergy with Team 2 right now.
Ok, the slate will go up tomorrow morning or something like that. While we wait these few hours, I'd like to ask a little curiosity. All those suggestions which just ignored the point I made previously just don't agree with me or...? I mean, don't get me wrong, there are a number of viable suggestions (still convinced Chomp is kinda the best one, but still, Breloom is good, Scizor is OK, and Latios could work in some sense I guess), but noone provided reasoning to say why to prefer their pick to an hazardmon or something else. I concede that greater synergy with Team 2 may be an implicit argument for all of those suggestions (although you would need to argue why your pick has greater synergy compared to the others, specifically Chomp, while I don't need to do so since SR, arguably the best move in the game and wannabe suspected (seems lol) should be enough on its own); still I'd like to hear the submitters address this specific concern.
Yeah, I like to abuse brackets. Sorry about that!
Yeah, I like to abuse brackets. Sorry about that!
@gang4lf:
I guess that we reached a point where Team 2 can go offensive as much as possible so Team 1 is going to be obligated to use more defensive mons that will not help that much at the end. I also think that a Stealth Rock user could work here, but Team 2 has way too much advantage right now (Zapdos shits there) so applying a lot of pressure now can open some doors later to go for the utility.
I guess that we reached a point where Team 2 can go offensive as much as possible so Team 1 is going to be obligated to use more defensive mons that will not help that much at the end. I also think that a Stealth Rock user could work here, but Team 2 has way too much advantage right now (Zapdos shits there) so applying a lot of pressure now can open some doors later to go for the utility.
Irrelevant but, brackets are like my favorite thing ever!
That's the cool thing about Garchomp, it's extremely offensive yet, thanks to its excellent STAB coverage, it can also serve as our SR setter and one that we know will be able to set it up do to its excellent speed.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 343-406 (87.05 - 103.04%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Find something that can counter Garchomp and isn't dead weight against the rest of Team 2. (because I honestly can't (lol brackets (BRACKETCEPTION)))
I also very much like Garchomp and think that it is an excellent choice for the team. I also think that Weavile, Mamoswine, or Cresselia (that bulk and Ice Beam) may be seeing some merit as a pick in the future then.
EDIT: In fact, Cresselia with Morning Sun may be an excellent 'mon against Team 2, as it forces them to either opt for sand (which hurts Zapdos and Rotom's ability to stop Landorus) or rain (which Team 1 can counter-pick with its last pick). Cresselia with Morning Sun, Ice Beam, Psychic, and either Calm Mind, Reflect, Toxic, or Thunder Wave could beat every single member of Team 2 as currently constructed, and can survive a +2 Outrage from Garchomp. It certainly doesn't care about Terrakion, either, as it can only 3HKO with even its strongest X-Scissor. Obviously, Rotom and Zapdos can't break through, either.
EDIT: In fact, Cresselia with Morning Sun may be an excellent 'mon against Team 2, as it forces them to either opt for sand (which hurts Zapdos and Rotom's ability to stop Landorus) or rain (which Team 1 can counter-pick with its last pick). Cresselia with Morning Sun, Ice Beam, Psychic, and either Calm Mind, Reflect, Toxic, or Thunder Wave could beat every single member of Team 2 as currently constructed, and can survive a +2 Outrage from Garchomp. It certainly doesn't care about Terrakion, either, as it can only 3HKO with even its strongest X-Scissor. Obviously, Rotom and Zapdos can't break through, either.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 324-382 (72.97 - 86.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not too shabby. The really cool part, though, is that all the counters that exist for Garchomp make Team 1 even more weak to SpDef Skarmory which'll obviously come back to haunt it.
Not too shabby. The really cool part, though, is that all the counters that exist for Garchomp make Team 1 even more weak to SpDef Skarmory which'll obviously come back to haunt it.
It's true, Skarmory could be a pest in the future, though again, Team 1 has that last pick.
Alright, changing my entry. You want Stealth Rock? I'll give you Spikes. Close enough, especially with this bad boy:
Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Trait: Sticky Hold
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spikes
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ice] (Please use 31/30/30/31/31/31 as then only Atk and Def are lowered)
- U-Turn
Accelgor. That's right, Accelgor.
Well, why Accelgor?
Accelgor allows for a high-paced Spike setter in OU that has the ability to massively dent 2 out of the three pokemon right now. What else is better? If you're in an unfavorable match-up, you've got the fastest U-Turn in the game, allowing for huge momentum. HP Ice will always OHKO Landorus. Bug Buzz is a 2HKO on Slowbro with Leftovers, and has a chance to OHKO with 2 layers and will OHKO with 3 layers of spikes. Slowbro's Flameethrower will never OHKO (because of Focus Sash primarily), dealing 62-74% damage, just missing the cut-off for SR damage factored in. Jirachi? U-Turn baby, that's the best part. U-Turn right into that Rotom-W we picked last round. A Solid VoltTurn combo used in conjuction with a Rapid Spinner can keep Accelgor alive for a very long time.
Weaknesses to the set:
As far as I'm concerned, T-Wave is one of the only two real ways to stop Accelgor. It's an underrated threat in OU that has access to the fastest U-Turn in the game, even only coming off the base 70 attack. Take that away and you lose momentum, so spikes damage or previous damage against Slowbro is extremely helpful. The other thing Accelgor falls to is Priority. Anything except Vacuum Wave will most likely OHKO because Accelgor only has a base 40 Def which we're lowering even more with Hasty Nature and the IV drop. I don't think I even need to provide calcs for those.
Calcs:
252SpAtk Accelgor (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 0HP/0SpDef Landorus (-SpDef): 106% - 126% (340 - 404 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252SpAtk Accelgor (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Slowbro (Neutral): 75% - 88% (296 - 350 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
4SpAtk Slowbro (Neutral) Flamethrower vs 120HP/0SpDef Accelgor (Neutral): 62% - 74% (208 - 246 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Trait: Sticky Hold
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spikes
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ice] (Please use 31/30/30/31/31/31 as then only Atk and Def are lowered)
- U-Turn
Accelgor. That's right, Accelgor.
Well, why Accelgor?
Accelgor allows for a high-paced Spike setter in OU that has the ability to massively dent 2 out of the three pokemon right now. What else is better? If you're in an unfavorable match-up, you've got the fastest U-Turn in the game, allowing for huge momentum. HP Ice will always OHKO Landorus. Bug Buzz is a 2HKO on Slowbro with Leftovers, and has a chance to OHKO with 2 layers and will OHKO with 3 layers of spikes. Slowbro's Flameethrower will never OHKO (because of Focus Sash primarily), dealing 62-74% damage, just missing the cut-off for SR damage factored in. Jirachi? U-Turn baby, that's the best part. U-Turn right into that Rotom-W we picked last round. A Solid VoltTurn combo used in conjuction with a Rapid Spinner can keep Accelgor alive for a very long time.
Weaknesses to the set:
As far as I'm concerned, T-Wave is one of the only two real ways to stop Accelgor. It's an underrated threat in OU that has access to the fastest U-Turn in the game, even only coming off the base 70 attack. Take that away and you lose momentum, so spikes damage or previous damage against Slowbro is extremely helpful. The other thing Accelgor falls to is Priority. Anything except Vacuum Wave will most likely OHKO because Accelgor only has a base 40 Def which we're lowering even more with Hasty Nature and the IV drop. I don't think I even need to provide calcs for those.
Calcs:
252SpAtk Accelgor (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 0HP/0SpDef Landorus (-SpDef): 106% - 126% (340 - 404 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252SpAtk Accelgor (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Slowbro (Neutral): 75% - 88% (296 - 350 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
4SpAtk Slowbro (Neutral) Flamethrower vs 120HP/0SpDef Accelgor (Neutral): 62% - 74% (208 - 246 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
I think specs Keldeo could be a potential counter to the garchomp as hydro pump OHKOs/2hkos the entire team, even SDef skarm. Under rain, it's ohko for everything, but I don't think rain is going to be present because swift swimmers.
Right, I'm going to try and explain my reasoning again seeing as a few people seem to be on their own wavelength of MUST SMASH EVERYTHING BUT ALSO HAS ROCKS. I want to stress that by picking gothitelle, I am also adding offensive pressure, but I'm doing so through an indirect approach.
To stress this heavily again, gothitelle offers great synergy to team 2 at the moment with both our CB Terrakion, AND our Rotom-W. To break it down for you all.
-CB Terrakion: Currently, slowbro is the only thing standing between terrakion running through team 1 like a hot knife through butter (well that and stone miss accuracy hax). By trapping and eliminating Slowbro, or the very threat of, Team 1 is forced to expend yet another of their precious picks on a terrakion counter.
Due to species clause, they only have three options left to them in order to counter terrakion, in the form of hippowdon, golurk, and nidoqueen. Coincidentally, gothitelle can outrun all 3 (though that depends on the nature and EV spread on nidoqueen), and damage them enough to make them no longer viable counters to terrakion.
-Rotom W: If you noticed, those remaining picks to counter terrakion all sport a bad weakness to our Rotom-W and it's STAB Hydropump. This allows us to still volt-switch freely because they can't risk blocking the volt switch unless they want their terrakion counter washed away. This allows us to put pressure and mindgames on team 1 while still maintaining momentum.
So what can team 1 do here? Well for starters, they don't want to be picking slower hazard setters that gothitelle can trap here. With HP fire, we effectively hinder them from picking hazard setters that could lay both SR and spikes, since they would have to do that all at once because of trapping by gothitelle (so it can have more utility beyond just trapping slowbro). They can pick a pursuit user to hinder us, but of pursuit users, that really only leaves tyranitar and scizor as their best options. Of these...
-Tyranitar: Just makes them weaker to terrakion, forcing the counter pick as stated already. That is heavily restrictive for team 1, and hence, not ideal at all.
-Scizor: Could well be a problem, but we are quite capable of dealing with it through zapdos, and possibly with our 5th pick as well if people do not like the pressure it and Lando-I would place on zapdos. Also must predict correctly against gothitelle or be nuked by HP fire. If absolutely necessary, Speed IV's for HP fire can be bumped up to 31 to force a speed tie, albeit at the cost of a slightly weaker HP fire.
Now I'm aware its not the hazard setter so many people are clamouring for, but considering the above points I have laid out for you all, please do think about it. We can still likely pick garchomp as the 5th pick for team 2 as none of these pokemon really want to take garchomp on, that team 1 would be forced into picking. Possibly we could even pick something like Landorus-Therian with SR and enough speed EV to outpace Jirachi, or heatran if they choose Scizor.
Hopefully this time my choice is clear enough for people to understand. Gang4lf, I certainly did understand your reasoning, but perhaps I was not clear enough the first time.
Also, with permission, I will change my gothitelle set slightly, PLEASE USE THIS AS MY SUBMISSION, I will axe the old set from earlier.
Gothitelle @ Lum Berry
Shadow Tag
IVs 30 Atk, 30 SpA, 30 Spe.
Timid 252 Spe, 252 SpA, 4 SpD
-Toxic
-Psychic
-HP Fire
-Thunderbolt
To stress this heavily again, gothitelle offers great synergy to team 2 at the moment with both our CB Terrakion, AND our Rotom-W. To break it down for you all.
-CB Terrakion: Currently, slowbro is the only thing standing between terrakion running through team 1 like a hot knife through butter (well that and stone miss accuracy hax). By trapping and eliminating Slowbro, or the very threat of, Team 1 is forced to expend yet another of their precious picks on a terrakion counter.
Due to species clause, they only have three options left to them in order to counter terrakion, in the form of hippowdon, golurk, and nidoqueen. Coincidentally, gothitelle can outrun all 3 (though that depends on the nature and EV spread on nidoqueen), and damage them enough to make them no longer viable counters to terrakion.
-Rotom W: If you noticed, those remaining picks to counter terrakion all sport a bad weakness to our Rotom-W and it's STAB Hydropump. This allows us to still volt-switch freely because they can't risk blocking the volt switch unless they want their terrakion counter washed away. This allows us to put pressure and mindgames on team 1 while still maintaining momentum.
So what can team 1 do here? Well for starters, they don't want to be picking slower hazard setters that gothitelle can trap here. With HP fire, we effectively hinder them from picking hazard setters that could lay both SR and spikes, since they would have to do that all at once because of trapping by gothitelle (so it can have more utility beyond just trapping slowbro). They can pick a pursuit user to hinder us, but of pursuit users, that really only leaves tyranitar and scizor as their best options. Of these...
-Tyranitar: Just makes them weaker to terrakion, forcing the counter pick as stated already. That is heavily restrictive for team 1, and hence, not ideal at all.
-Scizor: Could well be a problem, but we are quite capable of dealing with it through zapdos, and possibly with our 5th pick as well if people do not like the pressure it and Lando-I would place on zapdos. Also must predict correctly against gothitelle or be nuked by HP fire. If absolutely necessary, Speed IV's for HP fire can be bumped up to 31 to force a speed tie, albeit at the cost of a slightly weaker HP fire.
Now I'm aware its not the hazard setter so many people are clamouring for, but considering the above points I have laid out for you all, please do think about it. We can still likely pick garchomp as the 5th pick for team 2 as none of these pokemon really want to take garchomp on, that team 1 would be forced into picking. Possibly we could even pick something like Landorus-Therian with SR and enough speed EV to outpace Jirachi, or heatran if they choose Scizor.
Hopefully this time my choice is clear enough for people to understand. Gang4lf, I certainly did understand your reasoning, but perhaps I was not clear enough the first time.
Also, with permission, I will change my gothitelle set slightly, PLEASE USE THIS AS MY SUBMISSION, I will axe the old set from earlier.
Gothitelle @ Lum Berry
Shadow Tag
IVs 30 Atk, 30 SpA, 30 Spe.
Timid 252 Spe, 252 SpA, 4 SpD
-Toxic
-Psychic
-HP Fire
-Thunderbolt
Ha, I actually like Accelgor quite a bit. Quite a fun pick, and still serves as a great check to Landorus.
You mean theres moves that hurt Chandelure, too? I wasn't aware of that at all! Next time I will post the calcs that make my suggestion as least appealing as possible. You must go to UPenn.
And that right there is why we still have more picks. Keldeo has been suggested multiple times and has yet to win because he is easily countered by a number of threats, while the existing Zapdos is a good check to it. If all you post are problems with pokemon suggestions from players then why don't you come up with a solution?
BTW, being a condescing prick won't pass on high traffic threads like the BW2 metagame or OU viability threads. You can try it, but your posts would either get deleted or edited by a mod.
I guess you guys have a point on Gothitelle. Let's see what voters think about it. This vote will decide the fourth pokemon of Team 2. The possible entries are:
As usual, to vote you have to send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; you should write in both the title and the body of your message "CtP: your preference", where your preference is obviously selected from the previous list. You will have at least 24 hours to vote. Go!
As usual, to vote you have to send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; you should write in both the title and the body of your message "CtP: your preference", where your preference is obviously selected from the previous list. You will have at least 24 hours to vote. Go!
I'd like to discuss the advantages of Celebi at this point
Firstly, it is the ONLY mon which doesn't care a hoot about T-wave thanks to Natural Cure
Secondly, it forms a good VoltTurn core with Rotom-W
Thirdly, it helps form a Fire Water Grass core with Rotom -W(we still have one mon left)
Firstly, it is the ONLY mon which doesn't care a hoot about T-wave thanks to Natural Cure
Secondly, it forms a good VoltTurn core with Rotom-W
Thirdly, it helps form a Fire Water Grass core with Rotom -W(we still have one mon left)
Celebi does have a terrible coverage, bad bulk (you invested in special attack, but a random Steel type walls Grass / Psychic coverage all day, and to do so you crippled its defensive capabilities). You're basically left with U-Turning / Thunder Waving things all day since you can't do anything else, giving the opponent plenty of opportunities to switch in and take advantage of Celebi. Heck, it doesn't even have Recover, so it can't even pivot that well on the long run...
And about absorbing TWave, Rotom-W is already bothered very little about TWave, and loves to switch into Slowbro, so I guess we already have something available for that task. The FWG core is not really an argument since the opponent can take advantage of a FWG core very easily in this kind of project (two out of three of our FWG core would be walled by Latias, for example (U-Turn doesn't even 2HKO so Latias can Roost off the damage, and Rotom-W doesn't exactly like taking a Draco Meteor). Overall Celebi is not a great choice at all here in my opinion.
And about absorbing TWave, Rotom-W is already bothered very little about TWave, and loves to switch into Slowbro, so I guess we already have something available for that task. The FWG core is not really an argument since the opponent can take advantage of a FWG core very easily in this kind of project (two out of three of our FWG core would be walled by Latias, for example (U-Turn doesn't even 2HKO so Latias can Roost off the damage, and Rotom-W doesn't exactly like taking a Draco Meteor). Overall Celebi is not a great choice at all here in my opinion.