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OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers (Read the OP First!)
- Thread starter Birkal
- Start date
Maybe an odd question - who is the better sweeper in today's meta: Scizor or Lucario?
Both are very similar as sweepers as they both have typings which help in set-up, access to Swords Dance and strong priority moves. I've tried both of them, but I guess I need someone else's advice as well.
For those who don't want to think to much, I've listed some points -
Pros -
> Better bulk - On paper, as well as in practice with the bulky SD set, Scizor has an easier time setting up in front of most bulky waters (most of which 2HKO Lucario), especially with Roost and Lefties.
> More power - Scizor's 130 Atk vs Lucario's 110. Scizor's 90 base power Bullet Punch vs Lucario's 80 base power ESpeed.
Cons -
> Bad coverage - The same reason why Metagross is bashed: you always run into multiple 'mons that resist BP. Quick Attack solves this somewhat, but its quite weak.
> Weaker main STAB - Thanks to higher base power, CC can break stuff Bug Bite can't.
Pros -
> Better coverage - Arguably the most important point. ExtremeSpeed has surprisingly good neutral coverage on most of OU, especially when you have STAB BP which takes care of Rock and Ghost types (there aren't many Scarfed Steel types these days, and the only common ghost other than Gengar is Jellicent).
> Stronger main STAB - CC hits like a freight train at +2.
Cons -
> Non-existent bulk - Even with that typing, Lucario has to be really careful when setting up. Seriously, once I was watching a match on PS and I saw a CB Ttar 2HKO a Lucario with Stone Edge, no crits, after 2 layers of spikes. Latios' Specs Draco Meteor is also a clean 2HKO without hazards.
So what do you all think? And I will really like if more than one person can reply to this.
Both are very similar as sweepers as they both have typings which help in set-up, access to Swords Dance and strong priority moves. I've tried both of them, but I guess I need someone else's advice as well.
For those who don't want to think to much, I've listed some points -
Pros -
> Better bulk - On paper, as well as in practice with the bulky SD set, Scizor has an easier time setting up in front of most bulky waters (most of which 2HKO Lucario), especially with Roost and Lefties.
> More power - Scizor's 130 Atk vs Lucario's 110. Scizor's 90 base power Bullet Punch vs Lucario's 80 base power ESpeed.
Cons -
> Bad coverage - The same reason why Metagross is bashed: you always run into multiple 'mons that resist BP. Quick Attack solves this somewhat, but its quite weak.
> Weaker main STAB - Thanks to higher base power, CC can break stuff Bug Bite can't.
Pros -
> Better coverage - Arguably the most important point. ExtremeSpeed has surprisingly good neutral coverage on most of OU, especially when you have STAB BP which takes care of Rock and Ghost types (there aren't many Scarfed Steel types these days, and the only common ghost other than Gengar is Jellicent).
> Stronger main STAB - CC hits like a freight train at +2.
Cons -
> Non-existent bulk - Even with that typing, Lucario has to be really careful when setting up. Seriously, once I was watching a match on PS and I saw a CB Ttar 2HKO a Lucario with Stone Edge, no crits, after 2 layers of spikes. Latios' Specs Draco Meteor is also a clean 2HKO without hazards.
So what do you all think? And I will really like if more than one person can reply to this.
Maybe an odd question - who is the better sweeper in today's meta: Scizor or Lucario?
Both are very similar as sweepers as they both have typings which help in set-up, access to Swords Dance and strong priority moves. I've tried both of them, but I guess I need someone else's advice as well.
For those who don't want to think to much, I've listed some points -
Pros -
> Better bulk - On paper, as well as in practice with the bulky SD set, Scizor has an easier time setting up in front of most bulky waters (most of which 2HKO Lucario), especially with Roost and Lefties.
> More power - Scizor's 130 Atk vs Lucario's 110. Scizor's 90 base power Bullet Punch vs Lucario's 80 base power ESpeed.
Cons -
> Bad coverage - The same reason why Metagross is bashed: you always run into multiple 'mons that resist BP. Quick Attack solves this somewhat, but its quite weak.
> Weaker main STAB - Thanks to higher base power, CC can break stuff Bug Bite can't.
Pros -
> Better coverage - Arguably the most important point. ExtremeSpeed has surprisingly good neutral coverage on most of OU, especially when you have STAB BP which takes care of Rock and Ghost types (there aren't many Scarfed Steel types these days, and the only common ghost other than Gengar is Jellicent).
> Stronger main STAB - CC hits like a freight train at +2.
Cons -
> Non-existent bulk - Even with that typing, Lucario has to be really careful when setting up. Seriously, once I was watching a match on PS and I saw a CB Ttar 2HKO a Lucario with Stone Edge, no crits, after 2 layers of spikes. Latios' Specs Draco Meteor is also a clean 2HKO without hazards.
So what do you all think? And I will really like if more than one person can reply to this.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. My last team (in my signature) was based around a Lucario sweep, and my current team uses Bulky Swords Dance Scizor. Both are excellent cleaners, but they have different places on the team. Scizor, as you said, finds many more opportunities to set up, but it faces a problem after that. Either it is forced to use Superpower to beat things like Skarmory at +2, but lowers its bulk and attack, or it uses Roost, which allows it to grab more boosts, but means it's completely walled by things like Skarmory. Also, Scizor has no way of ever beating Landorus-T, which is a huge threat in today's metagame. That being said, Bulky Scizor has no trouble setting up to +2 or even +4 on Dragons locked into Outrage, and then sweeping with Bullet Punch.
Lucario, on the other hand, is a great sweeper late-game. Thanks to its decent attack, awesome move in Close Combat, and +2 priority from Extremespeed, it has little trouble ripping through offensive teams at +2. The problem with Lucario is that you kind of have to pick your poison. You can choose Crunch to beat Jellicent, Slowbro, and Reuniclus, but then you are walled by all sorts of things, like Landorus-T, Gliscor, and even Terrakion and ScarfTyranitar. If you opt for Ice Punch, you can beat dragons like Latias as well as Landorus-T and Gliscor, but you lose to the Ghost and Psychic types mentioned above. If you choose Bullet Punch, you can beat Terrakion, Gengar, and Scarf Tyranitar. You can also surprise Sableye, which almost always thinks it can come in and beat you, but takes a huuuge chunk from +2 Bullet Punch. But no matter what, you're always going to be walled by something. The only thing that avoids this is Agility Lucario, but it just doesn't hit hard enough...But Lucario does have the advantage over Scizor of better coverage. While you will be walled by something, it won't be as many things as Scizor. Also, +2 Priority is great, since it means you won't have to take Breloom's Mach Punch and can OHKO at +2.
Honestly the choice between the two will depend on your team. What threats you have covered and whether it is imperative that you set up to +2 or higher. If you NEED something that can use Bullet Punch and set up till the cows come home, then Scizor is great. If you just want something that takes a turn to set up and then goes from there, Lucario is better.
It has a small niche, but due to the common Fighting types and overwhelming Special attackers, coupled with a weakness to status, Porygon 2 is often not seen. However, it is actually decent, though I would argue it was better in BW1 due to Porygon2 excelling against Dragon's, which are no longer as influential.
For Bullet Punch Lucario, I find Pursuit Ttar and Specs Gothitelle to be excellent partners, as they can take out pretty much everything that's capable of stopping BP Lucario.
So, just asking, are there any good partners in particular for SD Scizor? Like Magnezone or Dugtrio or something?
Bulky SD Scizor generally wants Steels out of the way, especially Skarmory, and also stuff like Landorus T give it headaches. I like to pair it up with a strong Special attacker, although Magnezone can get some credit for being able to trap Skarm and others, like Forretress. Keldeo is nice because it really hurts most stuff that deal with Scizor, as well as Scizor threatening the things that deal with Keldeo, such as Latias or Celebi.
I want to make a rain team with Tornadus. So that's Tornadus, Politoed, Tentacruel/Starmie to spin, and most likely Keldeo to clean up. What Pokemon, in addition to Ferrothorn, can be added to this list to handle that great big Electric weakness?
Also, what are some rain-compatible Pokemon that check/counter Terrakion? I tend to find my rain teams horribly weak to them.
Also, what are some rain-compatible Pokemon that check/counter Terrakion? I tend to find my rain teams horribly weak to them.
Scizor and Jirachi are the main problems, especially if you lack Hidden Power [Fire], but I would still highly recommend you carry Hidden Power [Ice] and just use something else to get rid of Jirachi and Scizor, because Alakazam is an incredible emergency answer to dragons and Landorus, which is very valuable in most weatherless offense teams. Finally, Alakazam is a phenomenal Pokémon, but definitely don't rely on Alakazam as your only revenge killer, it's a very effective revenge killer up until the point it's sash is broken, and after that it can't revenge kill much at all, so just make sure you have some priority users or a scarfer.
EDIT: I just read the question wrong... sorry. Ok, Alakazam is an amazing offensive answer to Rock Polish Landorus, one of the most dangerous sweepers in the OU metagame. Not only this, but, as long as Alakazam has it's sash intact and is using Psychic or Psyshock / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Ice] (recommended set), it can also check Keldeo, Starmie, Terrakion, Mamoswine, dragons, Thundurus-T, Toxicroak, Venusaur, Breloom, and many, many more.
I would probably use Landorus-T, as its immune to Electric and is probably the best counter to Terrakion. However, this gives it a huge Water weakness, but that's easily picked up by the other members. It's a great offensive pivot in general, but your team will still have a pretty big weakness to Thundurus-T. I can't quite think how you could stop that weakness, although Ferrothorn does do a decent job, and Keldeo outspeeds and KOs with Surf/Hydro Pump.
Any ground type, or anything with volt absorb. I've used Jolteon and Gastrodon on rain teams, but there are plenty of others that are good.
Hydreigon is probably the best wall breaker in OU. Kyurem-B, Infernape and mixmence aren't bad either.
There are a lot of good offensive cores. You have to pick a pokemon first then think about its pair.
I have noticed, many times, that the OU Lucario Breakdown doesn't advise a Nasty Plot Set with Aura Sphere, Vacuum Wave, and Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse. I ran the numbers to see what kind of advantages it would have and it's not all bad for a Special Attacking Lucario.
Overall, both sets have wildly different counters/checks. After a Nasty Plot boost, Lucario can 2HKO the Metagame bar Dragonite, Amoonguss, and Venusaur, while a Swords Dance set is stopped cold by ResTalk Gyarados.
I also believe that Vacuum Wave can hit almost as hard (and at times, harder) than ExtremeSpeed. Granted, there are Psychics, Ghosts, and Poisons in the Tier, which is where Shadow Ball comes in for perfect neutral coverage, but there are many Steel-Types in the tier as well.
In Sandstorm, even Tyranitar falls to an unboosted Aura Sphere most of the time, with the Support Set having around a 50% chance of falling. Even if it doesn't fall, Lucario has access to Vacuum Wave to finish it off, as Tyranitar can only 2HKO with Fire Blast.
Looking back at these pros (and there are also cons, as for every individual Pokemon and individual set), how come people don't think that a Nasty Plot set has many merits--almost as many as the Swords Dance set?
Overall, both sets have wildly different counters/checks. After a Nasty Plot boost, Lucario can 2HKO the Metagame bar Dragonite, Amoonguss, and Venusaur, while a Swords Dance set is stopped cold by ResTalk Gyarados.
I also believe that Vacuum Wave can hit almost as hard (and at times, harder) than ExtremeSpeed. Granted, there are Psychics, Ghosts, and Poisons in the Tier, which is where Shadow Ball comes in for perfect neutral coverage, but there are many Steel-Types in the tier as well.
In Sandstorm, even Tyranitar falls to an unboosted Aura Sphere most of the time, with the Support Set having around a 50% chance of falling. Even if it doesn't fall, Lucario has access to Vacuum Wave to finish it off, as Tyranitar can only 2HKO with Fire Blast.
Looking back at these pros (and there are also cons, as for every individual Pokemon and individual set), how come people don't think that a Nasty Plot set has many merits--almost as many as the Swords Dance set?
It's not really that it can't hit hard, it's just that Vacuum Wave just isn't as good a priority as Extremespeed. First of all, it isn't +2 priority, which means that things like Dragonite can still hit you hard with their own Extremespeed. Not only that, but you lose out on hitting things like Landorus-I, Venusaur, Lati@s, Gengar (if you were running Bullet Punch), Thundurus-T, and other fast sweepers that resist Vacuum Wave. Also, with Aura Sphere, you have a base 90 attack versus Close Combat, which is base 120, and that's a huge difference, even after a boost.
There do seem to be plenty of Poison and Flying-Type Pokemon roaming around the Tier (if only Lucario could learn Ice Beam...but it CAN learn Ice Punch).
I'm assuming that a Mixed Attacking Set is ill-advised because of the lack of power?
Yep, pretty much. Lucario needs the boost from Sword Dance to be of any real use, and it can't afford to run Nasty Plot AND Swords Dance. Plus, then you lose out on coverage and priority.
I figured as much.
Now for some Team Building Questions. I'm attempting to put together a Sandstorm Team. I had a few ideas hit my head lately. This is kind of an important note, but I always assume Item Clause is on when creating teams (unless the holder states otherwise or it's Little Cup, but I don't see Little Cup Questions in an Overused Forum, now do I?)
1. Is it a relatively bad idea to run both Tyranitar and Hippowdon in the same team, or would it help with winning the Weather War against opposing Weather Teams?
2. What are the best spinners for Sandstorm Teams? I don't want to use Donphan and Hippowdon together (Leftovers and...WHAT ELSE? o.o ), but what else is there to use for a Sandstorm Spinner?
3. My most guaranteed Pokemon on the team is Landorus-I, as it can run a mean Sand Force Set. With this Pokemon, would it be wise to run Garchomp or is it typically a war between the two as to which one gets in the team?
4. I considered Sash Alakazam. Is that a good idea?
5. Ice-Type Attacks are going to be a pain to get over. What Steel-Type should I use? I considered Heatran and Jirachi so far, and I always thought that Magnezone would be a good Revenge Killer as my Steel-Type.
6. Gastrodon sounds like a good Pokemon to use because of the amount of Rain Teams I've been seeing. Combined with Heatran, would they make good Weather Counters for my team?
7. (Swear this is the last question) If I employ a Terrakion, would a Band or Scarf set be more effective?
Sorry if the bombardment of questions is bothering you, but I needed to get these questions out so I don't continuously post anymore o.o
Now for some Team Building Questions. I'm attempting to put together a Sandstorm Team. I had a few ideas hit my head lately. This is kind of an important note, but I always assume Item Clause is on when creating teams (unless the holder states otherwise or it's Little Cup, but I don't see Little Cup Questions in an Overused Forum, now do I?)
1. Is it a relatively bad idea to run both Tyranitar and Hippowdon in the same team, or would it help with winning the Weather War against opposing Weather Teams?
2. What are the best spinners for Sandstorm Teams? I don't want to use Donphan and Hippowdon together (Leftovers and...WHAT ELSE? o.o ), but what else is there to use for a Sandstorm Spinner?
3. My most guaranteed Pokemon on the team is Landorus-I, as it can run a mean Sand Force Set. With this Pokemon, would it be wise to run Garchomp or is it typically a war between the two as to which one gets in the team?
4. I considered Sash Alakazam. Is that a good idea?
5. Ice-Type Attacks are going to be a pain to get over. What Steel-Type should I use? I considered Heatran and Jirachi so far, and I always thought that Magnezone would be a good Revenge Killer as my Steel-Type.
6. Gastrodon sounds like a good Pokemon to use because of the amount of Rain Teams I've been seeing. Combined with Heatran, would they make good Weather Counters for my team?
7. (Swear this is the last question) If I employ a Terrakion, would a Band or Scarf set be more effective?
Sorry if the bombardment of questions is bothering you, but I needed to get these questions out so I don't continuously post anymore o.o
Pivots - Thoughts? Help, I'm new.
Is a pivot something necessary to every team? Also, to make sure I'm understanding this right, a slow Ninetales that (assuming she can) uturns/volt switches into a charizard (that is probably safe at this point), would be considered a pivot?
I'm really just trying to learn the metagame and team compositions and some of these terminologies are not too clear... Like I don't know how to tell the difference between a breaker and a sweeper....
Mixed Hydreigon is a breaker right? draco meteor/super power?
I guess I understand the terms, just not what is good. What I'm looking for is someone who can help me learn... but I think this is in the wrong forum and don't know how to delete it lol.
Is a pivot something necessary to every team? Also, to make sure I'm understanding this right, a slow Ninetales that (assuming she can) uturns/volt switches into a charizard (that is probably safe at this point), would be considered a pivot?
I'm really just trying to learn the metagame and team compositions and some of these terminologies are not too clear... Like I don't know how to tell the difference between a breaker and a sweeper....
Mixed Hydreigon is a breaker right? draco meteor/super power?
I guess I understand the terms, just not what is good. What I'm looking for is someone who can help me learn... but I think this is in the wrong forum and don't know how to delete it lol.
A pivot is a pokemon that isn't necessarily "powerful" nor "excessively defensive" but you can switch them in on a variety of threats/annoying moves and threaten to do something offensive (or turn/switch out) when in. Examples include Starmie, Celebi, Rotom-W, Scizor and Jirachi.
Ferrothorn wouldn't be considered a pivot for example because it doesn't act as a general switch in, but rather a specific one for specific threats, Ferrothorn could be considered a general "defensive check".
A wall breaker and a sweeper are pretty much the same thing, the difference is a wall breaker only has the intention of knocking out defensive threats (or a pokemon on the other team) and can not sustain a sweep. An excellent example is Haxorus, who is capable of removing almost any physical wall from the game, but can not sustain a sweep as it is revengeable by most scarfers and every priority user (after taking enough damage). An example of a sweeper is Keldeo, who requires support to remove the walls that most effectively switch in on it, but once they do, it is difficult to revenge her through priorities or scarfed attacks.
Usually sweepers enjoy set up turns, albeit this is not always necessary (for example scarf keldeo is a "sweeper" because of rain boosts or tyranitar removing the best switch ins, not because she needs set up turns)
Other examples of pokemon commonly used as wall breakers:
-Hydreigon
-Terrakion
-Keldeo (Taunt + LO is a wallbreaker lure)
-Infernape
-Dragonite
-Gengar
Pokemon commonly used as sweepers:
-Salamence (scarf set)
-Lucario
-Alakazam (substitute set)
-Volcarona
-Breloom
-Scizor
-Weavile
Note: In this generation the gap between the two has closed, you can seriously use an SD lucario as a wall breaker to open up holes in the other teams defense and shuffle/weaken defensive checks for another pokemon to come through and "sweep" what is left (such as alakazam)
edit: A "Stall Breaker" is a pokemon that can usually remove 1 or more pokemon on a typical stall team, for example calm mind reuniclus, double dance haxorus and sometimes variants of Lucario (depending on coverage move) and substitute alakazam (if no blissey/Jirachi)
Ferrothorn wouldn't be considered a pivot for example because it doesn't act as a general switch in, but rather a specific one for specific threats, Ferrothorn could be considered a general "defensive check".
A wall breaker and a sweeper are pretty much the same thing, the difference is a wall breaker only has the intention of knocking out defensive threats (or a pokemon on the other team) and can not sustain a sweep. An excellent example is Haxorus, who is capable of removing almost any physical wall from the game, but can not sustain a sweep as it is revengeable by most scarfers and every priority user (after taking enough damage). An example of a sweeper is Keldeo, who requires support to remove the walls that most effectively switch in on it, but once they do, it is difficult to revenge her through priorities or scarfed attacks.
Usually sweepers enjoy set up turns, albeit this is not always necessary (for example scarf keldeo is a "sweeper" because of rain boosts or tyranitar removing the best switch ins, not because she needs set up turns)
Other examples of pokemon commonly used as wall breakers:
-Hydreigon
-Terrakion
-Keldeo (Taunt + LO is a wallbreaker lure)
-Infernape
-Dragonite
-Gengar
Pokemon commonly used as sweepers:
-Salamence (scarf set)
-Lucario
-Alakazam (substitute set)
-Volcarona
-Breloom
-Scizor
-Weavile
Note: In this generation the gap between the two has closed, you can seriously use an SD lucario as a wall breaker to open up holes in the other teams defense and shuffle/weaken defensive checks for another pokemon to come through and "sweep" what is left (such as alakazam)
edit: A "Stall Breaker" is a pokemon that can usually remove 1 or more pokemon on a typical stall team, for example calm mind reuniclus, double dance haxorus and sometimes variants of Lucario (depending on coverage move) and substitute alakazam (if no blissey/Jirachi)