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how viable is stall as a playstyle?
- Thread starter Bad Ass
- Start date
By not letting Tentacruel get in with rain up? I do it all the time.
You're not using a balls to the wall stall team then. Tenta shits all over full stall teams. You can't stop it from spinning unless you deviate from true stall or your main goal is to rely on guessing to beat it. which is unreliable.
tr reunicluss used to be very popular on stall back in bw1 so.. yeah, especially cm recover reuini
I always tried to burn Tentacruel, a good stall team rarely lacks of bulky water, and they can easily spam scald and heal their health back up, switch out to get rid of the toxic counter, you know the drill. Once burned Tentacruel slowly dies to whatever attack at all, including the hazards it switches in to spin. A good wish can really fuck up that plan, but thats rather uncommon, and wish to can be stalled out if you are persistent enough.
It's a bitch to take down for rain stall, but you can manage between ferro and a cleric Chansey. In the sand, the pink blobs/celebi can wear it down quickly. I play rain stall quite a bit and the only spinner that really bothers me is bulky starmie. Tentacruel will be able to spin but you can wear it down.
There are a few misconceptions in this post which I would like to address, Curtains. First of all, a "balls to the wall" stall team is not what stall is all about. In BW, there are far too many threats to create said team without acquiring too many weaknesses. More often than not, good stall teams in Gen5 will revolve around having a Spikes setter, a Stealth Rock setter, and a good core to abuse the hazards. Being aggressive with stall is how you're going to succeed the best in this generation. If you don't understand what I mean, let me give you an example. Oristeros, a Team West WCOP player in BW1 who was an avid stall player, went 5-1 (iirc) and often used sand balance. His best team was Hippowdon / Heatran / Scarf Tyranitar / Jellicent / Celebi / Forretress. The way that he played the team revolved around getting Forretress in early game and then being aggressive with Celebi U-turn's ---> Roar Heatran or Roar Hippowdon to rack up damage. The team features a check to practically every Pokemon in BW1, and it's so well built that it still works amazingly in today's metagame. The team also has a Scarfer in Scarf Tyranitar to trap Starmie, Gengar, and to outspeed other pesky things like Tornadus. Stall is not about "balls to the wall" stall anymore is my point. It is about making sacrifices to get up hazards early and walling your opponent's team while being smart with your own phazing. Stall often resorts to a Scarfer to accommodate for all the speedy threats of the metagame. Gengar and Tornadus are nigh-on-impossible to stop without a Specially Defensive Jirachi, so running a Scarf Tyranitar is a way to help with both of the aforementioned Pokemon while still being able to trap Starmie. Meru's sand team features a Stoutland to act as a cleaner to abuse hazards, and it can even revenge Dragons with its blazing speed and power. Speed and quick hazards are the best way to play stall nowadays at a competitive level.
Anyways, I do not believe that Tentacruel is impossible for stall to stop at hard. If your stall team is completely boned by Tentacruel, that is a result of either bad play or bad teambuilding. A rain stall I use features Zapdos which pressures Tentacruel and Jellicent and keeping the former from spinning. Using other Pokemon to pressure Tentacruel like faster varients of Landorus-T, all weather inducers bar Politoed (who even outstalls with a VERY viable RestTalk set), Zapdos, etc. makes Tentacruel managable. Yee got creative himself and ran Rest on Jellicent to help deal with Tentacruel since it just outstalls and lets Yee give Rain stall the bird. As mentioned above, Reuniclus can take on Tentacruel with ease and doesn't fear status. Psyshock Latias and Bulky Garchomp are a few others I think of off the top of my head that make Tentacruel a liability at times. Smart double switching can get you into a situation where you're threatening Tentacruel. Most of the time the "prediction is a two-way street" argument comes into play, but Tentacruel is threatened by such a wide variety of faster Pokemon that it isn't even bad if you predict incorrectly. You're overestimating Tentacruel in my opinion, Curtains. Hopefully I cleared some misconceptions that you seemed to hold true in your post and made you see some ways to bypass Tentacruel on your own stall teams as you obviously were troubled by it! :)
That is a nice big post and all but i know what tenta's weaknesses are. The problem is stall revolves around setting up hazards and roaring/whirlwinding away. If you don't have your hazards then you get to the point where you are setting your opponent up with his offensive threats to gain momentum. Once tenta comes in and you switch to a reniculus or something he is already spinning your precious rocks and spikes away. The job is already done. Hes not going to stay in on a psychic type. Nor is he/she going to try to spin on a zapdos (even though it could live an attack or two depending on zaps ev's). There are tons of pokemon that would love to set up on a rested water type.....Breloom, thundur and dragons come to mind. So if you are using rest to just counter sub toxic tenta then you really set yourself up for alot of sweeps on the ladder and in tournaments.Also you kind of contradict yourself by suggesting fast pokemon to "pressure" tenta then referring to that guys slow, balls to the wall stall team that would probably struggle to get past sub tenta and his other 5 buddies. Also don't forget that tenta is a pretty good defender as well. It can come in on alot of threats and take a hit and go for the burn/toxic/spin..... Then you have to set up "stuff" again and be even more pressured by probably a team that is offensive in nature. I understand where you are coming from... as I have killed many a terribly played tenta. However, skilled players won't fall for those tricks and they will find the right moment to come in and spin.
that is pretty interesting how many tenta kills did you get with that? That seems like a solid breloom check as well. But I honestly agree that without some sort of creative working strategy stall is just giving yourself a handicap. Stuff like sableye and other obscure but working pokemon just gives stall too much trouble to be worth it.
that is pretty interesting how many tenta kills did you get with that? That seems like a solid breloom check as well. But I honestly agree that without some sort of creative working strategy stall is just giving yourself a handicap. Stuff like sableye and other obscure but working pokemon just gives stall too much trouble to be worth it.
Tentacruel was shitting all over my sand stall team so I switched Celebi to Extrasensory Roserade. Yeah it's niche, but it works \o/
You need to get creative with stall of any kind if you want it to work, or you're going to have to accept that a lot of things will beat you. Magic Coat Jellicent turns the tables on Custap HO teams, and even if/when you let it set up hazards on your side it isn't too hard to bait something into Outrage and spin with Forretress. (Incidentally, Forry and Jellicent do marvelous together!)
Curtains, the way stall is played is getting your hazards down and threatening with a Pokemon that can phaze while threatening spinners. SpDef Heatran is most common due to the fact it can Roar and threaten everything with burns and it also gives Forretress no time to spin. Zapdos is the Pokemon I mentioned because it threatens Tentacruel and Starmie while being able to Roar. If you're desperate for a spin, you might try spinning on a Zapdos. It's a 50/50 game to either Rapid Spin and hope to not get Thunder'd or switch and try not to get Roar'd. You're in a losing position if you're not the stall player since you're being threatened directly and not the stall player. Stall can easily set up the hazards again so get spun on once or twice isn't a major deal if you already dealt major damage with phazing. My point was that you can double switch to a Reuniclus as most Stallmon's don't mind a wrong prediction if you can threaten both the Pokemon in play and Tentacruel. Obviously a sleeping Jellicent can be setup fodder, but having a Breloom counter like Celebi, Skarmory for Dragons, etc. is what stall is about. It gives you a better matchup against teams with Tentacruel, so it's worth a shot!
I would say that stalling is still very viable as long as you don't go full stall. If you only have stallers on your team then I agree that it is pretty easy to work around them. If you just boost or sometimes put a sub up, for toxic staling, you can beat an all stall team with out to much issue. But that being said stalling still can work and still works very well. The key is to have an even balance of power with your stallers. My team I run is a toxic stall team but along with my stallers I also have pokemon like choice scarf Latios with trick to mess up and out speed common checks to my team. Once the threats have been taken care of and all his team has been toxiced I can let Gliscor do his job and stall them all to death, if all things go as planed.
Also the second point on the original post doesn't affect all teams. It does not make sense to have a spinblocker in a team that does not use entry hazards and not all stall teams have them.
Also the second point on the original post doesn't affect all teams. It does not make sense to have a spinblocker in a team that does not use entry hazards and not all stall teams have them.
uh, that "oristeros" team is actually mine (my main version in bw1, i.e. the one i used vs. mcmeghan in spl3 semis, had gliscor, but i also used hippowdon a few times; i've been using landorus-t as the bulky ground in bw2) and i'd been using it for 3 months before oristeros used it in wcop.
sub toxic tenta, however obnoxious, is manageable for sand stall (it's not coming in to spin against hippo/land-t, so if you keep sand up and double switch correctly, you can cockblock it). however against other rain stall it's stupid because it's just about unkillable.
sub toxic tenta, however obnoxious, is manageable for sand stall (it's not coming in to spin against hippo/land-t, so if you keep sand up and double switch correctly, you can cockblock it). however against other rain stall it's stupid because it's just about unkillable.
Getting back into the metagame my old, yet unorthodox, them has been doing pretty good in this meta, the team structure is Jirachi / Blissey / Amoonguss / Forretress / Slowbro / Zapdos, as far as I can tell, no other stall teams use a wacky structure like this. It works well enough, covering most OU Pokemon, it has some problems with spike stacking teams with a spin blocker admittedly.
For Tentacruel, I can break it's sub with Psychic from Slowbro or Blissey's Seismic Toss, and switch between Slowbro and Amoonguss to PP stall it out. Zapdos can also scare it out in a pinch.
For Tentacruel, I can break it's sub with Psychic from Slowbro or Blissey's Seismic Toss, and switch between Slowbro and Amoonguss to PP stall it out. Zapdos can also scare it out in a pinch.
In rainstall, I like to use bulky sub/BU Toxicroak wich can stall (pp stall, i sometimes use toxic/sucker punch or the more reliable drain punch or drop toxic for a coverage move according to ladder trends) and become a winning condition at the same time. It happens to completely wall subtoxic tenta (protect and scald variants) and provide some backup against subSD terrakion (stall nightmare). The keldo-tyrannitar core counter is a plus.
Also helps against toxic spikes without resorting to tenta (frees up the use of skarm without triple electric weakness).
Also helps against toxic spikes without resorting to tenta (frees up the use of skarm without triple electric weakness).
reyscarface just crushed me with stall vs one of my best ho teams...didnt think blobs were still good in this meta but he definitely proved me wrong and caught me off guard since i expected offense
not gonna reveal anything else since it's not my team (or even his team lol, i think it's dmalfoy's) but yeah i got owned
not gonna reveal anything else since it's not my team (or even his team lol, i think it's dmalfoy's) but yeah i got owned
is there any way to stop a Swords Dance Techniloom when using full stall? or are you better off sacking a pokemon so you can revenge kill it easily?
because I use a full stall team of Skarmory/Chansey/Jellicent/Heatran/Celebi/Thundurus-t (generic I know) and I was wondering if there was a way to beat Breloom without sacking any pokes
because I use a full stall team of Skarmory/Chansey/Jellicent/Heatran/Celebi/Thundurus-t (generic I know) and I was wondering if there was a way to beat Breloom without sacking any pokes
Go to skarm/thundy to force a spore, and then kill it with celebi. Assuming either Chansey or celebi is a cleric you can then remove the sleep.
Skarm and Celebi are your best bets, SD-techloom is dangerous, so you will likely have to sleep fodder your Skarmory as you want to minimize the odds of it getting 2 swords dances up. Then switch in Celebi and threaten to KO with Psychic or HP-fire.
Breloom is dangerous, if you beat it with only a sleeping Pokemon and a weakened Celebi, count yourself lucky.
Also you have no rapid spinner, how is that working out by the way?
I have moved a bit away from my said Zapdos team is recent days and have been experimenting with other team styles. Has anyone had any success with running both Celebi / Amoonguss / Roserade and Latias on the same team for stall? In theory it would work quite nicely as they cover many of the same threats that Scizor and Tyranitar often pursuit Latias to make way for a sweep, making the team in theory much less vulnerable to said type of team yet still using Latias for other threats that don't usually use pursuiters (Venusaur). I want to make a team like this but it doesn't seem to fall together nicely.
Breloom is dangerous, if you beat it with only a sleeping Pokemon and a weakened Celebi, count yourself lucky.
Also you have no rapid spinner, how is that working out by the way?
I have moved a bit away from my said Zapdos team is recent days and have been experimenting with other team styles. Has anyone had any success with running both Celebi / Amoonguss / Roserade and Latias on the same team for stall? In theory it would work quite nicely as they cover many of the same threats that Scizor and Tyranitar often pursuit Latias to make way for a sweep, making the team in theory much less vulnerable to said type of team yet still using Latias for other threats that don't usually use pursuiters (Venusaur). I want to make a team like this but it doesn't seem to fall together nicely.
Well I couldn't really find space for a spinner, but honestly it hasn't affected me that much. all my losses so far have been caused by an unfortunate Breloom sleep on Heatran or just being outplayed (I'm really new and not good at predicting and things like that) so it hasn't been that bad.
But is there any way I could get a spinner on without sacrificing anything too useful?
Also, Jellicent has been a little underwhelming at times so I thought about switching her to Slowbro and making Heatran specially defensive. thoughts?
But is there any way I could get a spinner on without sacrificing anything too useful?
Also, Jellicent has been a little underwhelming at times so I thought about switching her to Slowbro and making Heatran specially defensive. thoughts?
stall is the style that gives you the most room for outplaying, therefore you should only use it against opponents you consider you can outplay. at least thats what ive done in BW, if i dont feel i can outplay my opponent significantly i wont bring stall
What exactly do you mean by 'outplay?' Stall doesn't really require outplaying your opponent in the classical sense, but more of 'executing your team better.'
Stall pretty much died in Gen 4, not Gen 5.
I think we can all agree that the Ape is responsible for single handedly destroying the seemingly "impeccable" SkarmBliss core. Which is why the two saw a DRASTIC decrease in usage in the 4th and 5th generation. The Ferrocent core was created, and for a while many thought it would counter Infernape. However, an Iron Fist boosted Infernape with Life Orb, Close Combat, and ThunderPunch (Yes, people use this set. It's on Smogon, actually.) Gave the core a run for it's money.
It is true that since the core of SkarmBliss has fallen, the usage of Infernape has fallen as well. But with all these Mixed-Attackers running around this generation, (Namely Hydreigon, Mix-Mence, Jirachi, need I go on?) It seems almost useless for stall to even exist. People argue that Hydreigon, and Infernape are barely seen in standard play, but they still exist. It's a simple fact. In a meta-game full of unpredictability, you must be prepared for anything.
Lastly, Stall NEEDS hazard entries to work. Starmie laughs at toxic spikes, and can retaliate with a LO move due to it's versatility. Donphan takes minimal damage from stealth rock, and can always switch on the offensive. And Roar still exists, people. Did I mention that Dragon Teams completely destroy stall? Magnezone KO's any steel if it can manage to trap it, and Haxorus and Kyurem-B have become infamous for their ability to 2HKO nearly pokemon in the game.
All in all, stall is dying. And for good reason. No one likes to lose, and there's no reason to use a full blown stall team in a meta-game full of hard hitting pokemon.
I think we can all agree that the Ape is responsible for single handedly destroying the seemingly "impeccable" SkarmBliss core. Which is why the two saw a DRASTIC decrease in usage in the 4th and 5th generation. The Ferrocent core was created, and for a while many thought it would counter Infernape. However, an Iron Fist boosted Infernape with Life Orb, Close Combat, and ThunderPunch (Yes, people use this set. It's on Smogon, actually.) Gave the core a run for it's money.
It is true that since the core of SkarmBliss has fallen, the usage of Infernape has fallen as well. But with all these Mixed-Attackers running around this generation, (Namely Hydreigon, Mix-Mence, Jirachi, need I go on?) It seems almost useless for stall to even exist. People argue that Hydreigon, and Infernape are barely seen in standard play, but they still exist. It's a simple fact. In a meta-game full of unpredictability, you must be prepared for anything.
Lastly, Stall NEEDS hazard entries to work. Starmie laughs at toxic spikes, and can retaliate with a LO move due to it's versatility. Donphan takes minimal damage from stealth rock, and can always switch on the offensive. And Roar still exists, people. Did I mention that Dragon Teams completely destroy stall? Magnezone KO's any steel if it can manage to trap it, and Haxorus and Kyurem-B have become infamous for their ability to 2HKO nearly pokemon in the game.
All in all, stall is dying. And for good reason. No one likes to lose, and there's no reason to use a full blown stall team in a meta-game full of hard hitting pokemon.
stall definitely did not die in dpp, or even come close to it. infernape is not that hard to handle.
the ferrocent core did not decrease in popularity because of iron fist infernape. other, more common fighting types, such as terrakion and conkeldurr, contributed to that.
mix mence is hardly seen in bw, choice scarf is much more common. plus, while the mix set *can* do a lot of damage to sand stall, rain and sun stall laugh at it.
jirachi is not even close to the reason why stall isn't effective in bw, especially with hippowdon and heatran at every corner, as well as other mons such as landorus-t/jellicent/zapdos/gastrodon. sub + cm is really only threatening against rain stall.
not only is haxorus almost completely outclassed by kyurem-b [who really does dismantle stall], he isn't exactly too great against defensive teams, with skarmory/forretress/ferrothorn everywhere. with magnezone support, maybe, but then there's still hippowdon/landorus-t/scarf ttar that he has to break through.
not being able to protect entry hazards is the least of current stall's worries. donphan is a terrible spinner.
the fact that you didn't mention landorus-i or keldeo [especially when paired with cbtar], quite possibly the worst thing for stall to ever have to face, is surprising.
the ferrocent core did not decrease in popularity because of iron fist infernape. other, more common fighting types, such as terrakion and conkeldurr, contributed to that.
mix mence is hardly seen in bw, choice scarf is much more common. plus, while the mix set *can* do a lot of damage to sand stall, rain and sun stall laugh at it.
jirachi is not even close to the reason why stall isn't effective in bw, especially with hippowdon and heatran at every corner, as well as other mons such as landorus-t/jellicent/zapdos/gastrodon. sub + cm is really only threatening against rain stall.
not only is haxorus almost completely outclassed by kyurem-b [who really does dismantle stall], he isn't exactly too great against defensive teams, with skarmory/forretress/ferrothorn everywhere. with magnezone support, maybe, but then there's still hippowdon/landorus-t/scarf ttar that he has to break through.
not being able to protect entry hazards is the least of current stall's worries. donphan is a terrible spinner.
the fact that you didn't mention landorus-i or keldeo [especially when paired with cbtar], quite possibly the worst thing for stall to ever have to face, is surprising.