General Doubles Metagame Thread

[Laga]

Nice with a new Topic of the Weak, this is a very interesting one indeed :]

What I usually like to do when I build a team is first of all think of a strategy. I think through a small list of things that will become the key to picking which pokemon I should use for the team. Here is a few points you can use to find out what direction your team is supposed to be heading.

1. Will my Team use Tailwind, Trick Room or try spreading Paralysis, and if so, which one?
   
   
2. Will my team have weather, and if so, which kind of weather?
   
   
3. What kind of playstyle do I want to use with this team (HyperOffense, Bulky Offense or Semi-Stall)

If you have followed all of these three guidelines, you should be able to get an idea on which type of pokemon would fit your team. Here are a few examples where I pick a few guidelines, and then pick a Pokemon or 3 to fit each of the team structures.

Pro Tip: Usually if you are using TR, TW or Paralysis teams, you will want to first pick a pokemon to use the respective move for your team unless you are using weather, in which case you can just place the weather pokemon in the first spot.

~ Example #1 ~

• I want to use a Trick Room team
• I want to use Sandstorm
• I want to use Bulky Offense

What pokemon should I use then?

Tyranitar is obvious, so I won't use that as an example

A good pokemon to fit a Bulky Offensive Trick Room Sandstorm team for setting up Trick Room would be a Reuniclus. This is because Reuniclus is
1) immune to sandstorm
2) is bulky enough to take a hit or 2
3) hits extremely hard


The set you then would want to run is this one ~

Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 172 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 56 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball / Protect


You would now want a physical attacker to go alongside that has some good offensive synergy with it, whilst being slow enough to fit Trick Room. A pokemon that I would see working well alongside a Reuinclus as a lead on a Sandstorm Trick Room team would be Scrafty. Scrafty is effectively the Trick Room, half dark type version of Hitmontop, being slower but carrying the same handy feature in Intimidate + Fake Out. It can also use Moxie for semi-sweeping in Trick Room. Fake Out also renders one of the opposing pokemon useless the first turn, making it easier for Reuniclus to set up Trick Room. It also has access to Drain Punch, allowing it to heal some if it's health back to semi-negate Sandstrom damage that is taken throughout the match.

Here is the set I would use ~

Scrafty @ Chople Berry / Sitrus Berry
Trait: Intimidate / Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fake Out
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Detect

As you can see, both of these pokemon are built to provide Trick Room support, whilst both being bulky hard hitters, and neaither of them are hurt that much by Sand damage.

This is mostly answering the first question as detailed as i can on how to find a starting point for your doubles team.

That is all I feel like writing about for now, and I definately hope i helped someone out there with Doubles teambuilding.

I am Probably going to edit this post to give it more examples of different pokemon fitting with different strategies, but since it is 1 AM here, later will do fine for me.


P.S: Remember that offensive synergy usually comes before defensive, (at least imo) since there is a lot less switching than in singles.

 

[The One Man Band]

Before I address the questions I think a problem a lot of people have while team building is that they try to have an answer for everything. This is impossible in real battle time and often weakens the team strategy as a whole.

I am going to explain my thoughts on the following questions.

• What are good ways to come up with a starting point for a team

To start any team, you need an idea that you think will be sucessful. This is either a pokemon set that you really find you play with well, or a play style.

• What do you do in teambuilding once you've come up with your initial core?

Examine weaknesses in the core you have built. Add pokemon that play with your strategy and help beat pokemon your core has trouble with.

• How much of your team do you have rely on one strategy?

This depends on the strategy that you choose. One can deviate into two routes here. Either build more of your team to rely on the strategy to overwhelm opponents, or add members that help counter other strategies.

• How much of your team should be devoted to helping check opposing strategies?

This is hard to judge. If one has too much devoted, his or her strategy can go awry. If one has too little, one's strategy is helpless. I think one should only add pokemon to their team that counter opposing strategies if, and only if, they contribute the teams strategy. This is not VGC.

• How do you go about revising your team once you've made it?

Someone can go through hours and hours looking for better movesets, better team members, but once your at a stop; you should just play with the team. A lot of people can't see weaknesses in the team unless they play with it.


I am going to lay out a team that I made and go through the team building process so you can see an example of how I build my teams.

Hide

For the Doubles laddering challenge, I couldn't have any members that were from fifth generation.

The starting point for my team was the thought that I wanted to use Abomasnow and Heatran. These two cover each others weaknesses well and can singlehandily bust rain and sun teams. They also take care of disquake comboes pretty well and are hard against teams that utilize multiple dragons.

I chose gliscor for the third spot for several key reasons. He takes on sand teams well, doesn't care about intimidate, and can set up tail wind if I'm in a rut. His flying/ground coverage is very good. He also resisted the fighting types my core was weak to.

I wanted a pokemon that was immune to earthquake, and rotom-w was there to complete my FWG core. It gives thunder wave support to my slow team and also helps against rain teams.

My team had a weakness to physical attackers and I wanted fake out, so hitmontop was the obvious choice. He gave me wide guard support as well as a powerful fighting stab that my team desperately needed.

When your team doesn't have something that can hit cresselia super effectively, you're in trouble. This is why I chose darkrai. He also gave my team another way to blizzspam and had focus blast to add to my teams wide coverage.

This team is a good example of a team that uses different strategies to succeed. My team is therefore not reliant on just one pokemon.

 

[youngjake93]

Whenever I make a good team it has to have a few things. First, you need disruptors. These include fake out, rage powder, paralysis, protect, weather, trick room, etc. Protect is the most popular option, but all of these can serve to advance your strategy and hinder the opponent's.
Next, it is important to have reliable fighting, ground, electric and water switch ins. They are very spammable without resists/immunities.
One thing about doubles is that win conditions are hard to come by since you have to knock out 2 mons each turn. You can accomplish this with paraflinch, speed control, fast spread users, or whatever, but outspeeding or tanking two mons is harder than 1 in singles.

CB terrakion is an example of something that can provide a win condition. Once everything is weakened, rock slide can finish them off especially with fake out or ragepowder support. It can spam close combat with support from a second fast attacker.

 

[BlankZero]

We really ought to keep up with the Topic of the Week more often, eh?

• What are good ways to come up with a starting point for a team?
  Whenever I want to make a new team, I look at different Pokemon, and try to form a general idea around that Pokemon. Say, I want to try Mandibuzz (lol yes, I did try it.), and I look through its moveset. Tailwind? Ok, that might work nicely. SO I go about finding good partners that either take care of checks, or just cover weaknesses. In Mandibuzz's case, you'd need something to cover Ice/Electric, for example.
• What do you do in teambuilding once you've come up with your initial core?
  Once I figure out a core, I look to patch up weaknesses and/or further my strategy. Sticking with the theme of Mandibuzz/Tailwind, I would look for other TW setters, as well as Pokemon that can abuse it to the fullest, usually middling speed Pokemon or those that don't quite hit the upper speed tiers, but are far too fast for Trick Room, like Breloom and Kyurem.
• How much of your team do you have rely on one strategy?
  I try to not have anything truly rely on the main strategy of the team, as building to an archetype will wreck you as soon as the archetype falls. Weather may be prevalent in Doubles, but it is not End All Be All. Nor is TW, or TR, which actually take advantage of weather in their builds more often then not. If I have Pokemon that are just 100% better under a certain condition, like Chlorophyll/Swift Swim/Sand Rush sweepers, I'll absolutely try and make them into a win-condition for later on, or at least wall-break mid game and clean up with something else later. But never purely rely on it.
• How much of your team should be devoted to helping check opposing strategies?
  I like to have 1-2 pokemon on the team to help disrupt, whether it be Taunt, Sleep, Phazing, or switching the weather out to deny an opposing team its advantage. The object is to not let your opponent get their win condition, but don't just disrupt to disrupt. Troll teams are fun and all (lol @ Divecats) but they are just that. Trolly. Not something built to win matches. I'd say no more than 3 members of your team should have Disruption. Anything more than that and you risk getting to wrapped up in your opponent's strategy, and forgetting your own.
• How do you go about revising your team once you've made it?
  Usually, you can tell if your team is ok after the initial build and a few matches. If you need to change more than 2 members of the team, you should go back to the drawing board and rethink the whole team.
  Once the team members are more or less set, the next step would be to get your EVs set up, and get your teammates sorted out with the right movesets for the job. After that, see how far you can ladder with it, or jump on IRC and ask for a couple test matches against some of the better players.

One thing I've noticed about doubles (and this is partially true in other formats as well) is that Ladder matches and IRC (or tour) matches play much differently in comparison. A team on the ladder that peaks #1 might not be great against, say, someone who has been playing Doubles a bit longer.

 

[Laga]

Hmmm, this thread is becoming pretty inactive, and doubles is too strong of a tier to become inactive, so imma make a quick post about a team i made. I also feel like sharing a few sets / team cores. Here, I shall showcase a team, that is a pretty standard paralysis goodstuff team with a few small twists that you would not see on any old goodstuff team ~

Team Importable

Intimidate pl0x (Bisharp) @ Dark Gem
Trait: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 248 HP / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Night Slash
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Protect

Free Hugs!! (Kyurem-Black) @ Power Herb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 236 Spd / 252 Atk / 20 HP
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Dragon Claw
- Protect
- Freeze Shock

Thundurp (Thundurus) (M) @ Electric Gem
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Pumped Up Kicks (Hitmontop) (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 248 HP / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard

Land 'R Us (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Yache Berry
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
- Protect

(mooning) (Cresselia) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 196 SDef / 252 HP / 60 Def
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Light Screen
- Helping Hand

The entire reason I even made this team was because I wanted to try out Power Herb Kyurem-B with Freeze Shock. We were a couple of dudes discussing it's viability on #doubles, and I really felt that must try that set out. So I did. I built a team around it that turned out to become kind of paralysis based (Thundurus-I too stronk). Also, I wanted to use Bisharp, because Intimidate spamming would hurt my team if not for it, since 4 out of 6 of my pokes are physical attackers.

There is also a cool defensive support core that I have been using on this team in Cresselia / Hitmontop / Landorus-T.

+

+

If you look very closely at the above importable, you will see that Cresselia does indeed have Light Screen, and Light Screen works amazingly in conjunction with Intimidate. I have 2 Intimidate pokes to put constant pressure on the opponents physical attackers, and Light Screen allows the entire team to take much less from special attacks. Both Intimidating pokes have a move to do their Intimidating job very well and very consistently. Hitmontop has Fake Out to stop potential special attackers whilst, say, Cress sets up the Light Screen. Landorus-T has U-Turn, which, with Intimidate forcing many switches, gains nice offensive momentum. It is also not all that fast, so you could say it is a slow U-Turn, which is always nice for easing prediction. Basically, this core aims to limit the foe's capabilites of hitting you hard, whilst at the same time hitting back hard (Hitmontop and Landorus-T mostly). This allows one of the more powerful teammates to come in and use the offensive momentum / pressure to blow massive holes in the opposition.

Now for Kyurem-B's fun moveset.

@

Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 236 Spd / 252 Atk / 20 HP
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Dragon Claw
- Protect
- Freeze Shock

"Kyurem-B lacks a physical Ice STAB attack"
"Kyurem-B needs Icicle Crash"

Who needs Icicle Crash when you can have Freeze Shock? Joke aside, this set works better than you would think it does (I raised a brow at first too), but after testing it a bit, it has come very much in handy. First of all, it OHKOs Yache Berry Zapdos. This means it also OHKOs everything that does not resist it that has the same bulk or less than that of Zapdos. That is pretty darn impressive in my honest opinion. Taking a huge ~65% off of Cresselia (I don't remember exactly how much, but the calc I use doesn't list Freeze Shock, which it flippin should). Other than the immediate power that it provides, Ice is one of the best offensive types in the game, if not the best. This just confirms that everything dies, of course.

Pros ~
- Immediate power
- Extreme power
- Strong physical BoltBeam coverage
- Kills things.

Cons ~
- If you miss, Power Herb is now gone :[
- One-time use
- No boosting items

Overall, I think you all should try out the Kyurem-B, try out the team if you would like. I really only posted this because I felt like sharing the Cube set with you guys, and the team in general too. Double Intimidate + Light Screen Cress pisses people off. Bisharp pisses Inttimidating pokes off. In fact, everything on this team succeeds at pissing people off except Kyurem-B, he surprises people. I hope you shall try out the team, maybe make your own modifications and bye for now guys :]

 

[Audiosurfer]

There are three steps that I think cover most of the basic rules of teambuilding:

1. Visualize - This is where you come up with your basic idea of what your team looks like. Whether it's "I'd like to build around Tornadus", "I'd like to make a Trick Room team" or "I want two or more Blizzard users", this is where you start getting an idea of how you want your team to function.
2. Actualize - This is basically where you start typing up your team. Usually, I start with 1 or 2 Pokemon, then I add in 2 more Pokemon to support the first two. From there, I use the last few slots to tie up weaknesses and flaws with the team (adding a Rain check if the team is weak to Rain teams, etc.)
3. Finalize - Go out and test your new team. From there, you can see what needs to be done (EV tweaks to be made, weaknesses that you didn't pick up on during the other stages, etc.) The more testing, the better, since you can get a better idea of what needs to be patched up by having more time put into testing.

Usually I just think of something that sounds threatening, that hasn't been explored too much in Doubles, or that I thought was cool and wanted to try, and then I go from there. Past that, I don't like to spend too much time on the initial team concept. Most of the time spent teambuilding is deciding what roles I want to have covered in my 6 team slots or finding ways that I can support the core/Pokemon I started off with. In terms of how much of your team should be dedicated to countering other playstyles vs. executing your own, a good member should be able to fulfill multiple roles. For example, you can have something like Tailwind Latias help you execute your team strategy while also countering the opponent's strategy. Here's an example of a team I made that has done fairly well:

team

The idea I started off with: Wanted a team that could use Scarf Tyranitar, maintain good matchups against most teamstyles and have nice defensive and offensive synergy.

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Ice Punch

This set has been pretty popular in the VGC world, and I thought it would be really cool to try in Doubles. Using a Choice Scarf might seem odd, but it lets Tyranitar outspeed fast threats like Tornadus and fire off a STAB Rock Slide. This also makes Tyranitar a good check to weather sweepers, since you can rid them of their speed boosts with Sand Stream so you can hit them hard. It also gets the jump on things like Latios and Volcarona that think they can outspeed you so you can slam them with one of your STABs. The main problem I perceived with Scarf Tyranitar is that since you lacked Protect and the freedom to switch moves, it could be exploited due to its various weaknesses, and if I mispredicted I could easily lose my Tyranitar. Thus, enter my next Pokemon...

Togekiss @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Follow Me
- Air Slash
- Thunder Wave
- Softboiled

Togekiss is able to provide valuable support for Tyranitar since it can redirect powerful attacks that target Tyranitar, giving it more longevity. Thunder Wave also takes care of the things that outspeed Tyranitar such as Volcarona at +1 and Shaymin-S. Air Slash was a STAB move so it wouldn't be complete Taunt bait, and Softboiled is to let it stick around longer. After coming up with this initial two Pokemon core, I decided to add Pokemon that would benefit from the support they provide while also aiding the team and making it more solid. The next two Pokemon are as follows:

Rotom-Wash @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Protect

Breloom @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Protect

The reason these two Pokemon were chosen is that they fill a number of roles for the team. First of all, they both serve as offensive Rain checks for this team due to the fact that they both resist Rain and hit Water types super-effectively. Second, this team is not very fast outside of ScarfTar (which isn't something I'll want to have out all of the time anyways) so the additional Thunder Wave support given by Rotom-W and the priority granted by Breloom are very helpful for this team. Spore from Breloom is also very useful to shut down things like Trick Room users and such which could be problematic for this team. These two are also great since they can check opposing Sand teams and are great Pokemon in general, which lets them perform well regardless of what weather is up. In addition to all of these, they both appreciate Pokemon such as Latios gone, which Scarftar is good at ensuring.

Scizor @ Occa Berry
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Protect

Scizor was added since I needed a Dragon resist so I could switch something in to take a Draco Meteor or something if I needed it. Scizor also helps against Trick Room since it hits Psychic types super effectively, and the additional priority is useful on this team. Aerial Ace might seem weird, but this team so far had a lot of trouble with Breloom, and Aerial Ace can OHKO it, so it was chosen as the 3rd slot for this Pokemon. Scizor functions as another great pivot for the team, since it has a slew of useful resistances and can hit hard when it gets in. It also eliminates Lati@s, which as I said previously is useful for this team. The fact that it's slow means that it appreciates the Thunder Wave support provided by Rotom-W and Togekiss as well.

Volcarona @ Lum Berry
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Heat Wave
- Protect

Volcarona was chosen since I felt as if the team needed a win condition, and Volcarona was very useful. It's easy to set up, beats Scizor for Tyranitar, and forms a FWG core with Rotom-W and Breloom. In addition, with Breloom, Rotom-W and Scizor to beat rock types, Volcarona has an easier time setting up a Quiver Dance. It combines with Scarf Tyranitar to give two good cleaning options for the team, and Togekiss support helps make sure it can do its job properly.

How I went through my guideline in making this team
Visualize - I wanted a team that could use Scarf Tyranitar, maintain good matchups against most teamstyles and have nice defensive and offensive synergy. In doing this, I didn't want a team that was too weather-reliant either.
Actualize - I went through, put down my initial core and then added Pokemon that had good overall team synergy until I had a good final team. I went through it and also made sure that all of the roles I wanted to be filled on my team got covered as well.
Finalize - I've played around with the team in Double Dash and on the ladder, so I have a better idea of what needs tweaking on my team.

Hopefully this helped a few of you :)

 

[lokt]

I'm building my 2nd smogon doubles team, and I was wondering if someone could post the standard tailwind latias and abomasnow sets. Thanks.

 

[BlankZero]

I'm building my 2nd smogon doubles team, and I was wondering if someone could post the standard tailwind latias and abomasnow sets. Thanks.

There's no real Standard sets in Doubles atm, but I might be able to help.

Latias needs Tailwind and preferably a Dragon STAB. This could be Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse. Protect is nice, but so is Roar, HP, Psyshock, Helping Hand, Heal Pulse, etc.

Abomasnow is better off as a Sash lead with Ice Shard and Blizzard, Protect, and a filler move.

 

[Laga]

The somewhat standard Latias set would probably be something like

Latias @ Sitrus Berry / Haban Berry / Leftovers (if you are feeling that it lives long)
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
~ Tailwind
~ Helping Hand
~ Recover / Protect / Heal Pulse

Can't say what is standard, since there isn't really much of an analysis for it, but this is what most people tend to run. Max HP for bulk, Max Speed so you can freely set up Tailwind on a shitton of things that are slower, and the moves should be self-explanatory ~

Abomasnow: Use Blank's suggestion, and then obviously invest in Speed and Special Attack. Might want to speed creep since you are running Tailwind, but that is for a different time

Edit: yes lucariojr, i forgot to slash it lol. but also, the icy wind suggestion you are making is irrelevant, because this man wants to run a Tailwind team :P

 

[tofucocoa]

actually i'd reccomend dmeteor and haban for latias. tailwind+dmeteor pretty much covers every dragon type (besides maybe outrage kyub, but that's what landog and hitmontop were put on this good earth for) and does a good job of disrupting kingdra+politoed. without dmeteor, latias can't ohko 4 hp latios, which is kind of sad, but it's alright since it still does a nice amount of damage to everything else. im not a big fan of tailwind, so i'll reccomend icy wind over it for the chip damage, but thats just me. ive been wanting to try mist ball because it has a 50% chance to lower special attack (same for luster purge latios, i guess), which in theory gives you a pseudo snarl/light screen while also covering stuff like breloom and hitmontop, so maybe try that and tell me what you think xD

e: also it might be worth trying wood hammer abomasnow if you're interested in ohkoing politoed and tyranitar.

 

[Laga]

So just a few minutes ago, Fusxfaranto asked the #doubles chat whether or not the move Role Play could reactivate Intimidate and Weather inducing abilities immediately. I had no idea, and neither did anyone else seem to do, so we decided to test it, so I made a quick, shitty test team that I am probably going to delete in less than 2 minutes, so we could check out it's potential effectiveness / uselessness. Here is the replay ~

Testing out Role Play + Intimidate and Role Play + Snow Warning

So that concludes that yes, it does indeed work instantly after copying the ability, and also works through protect if that somehow has any relevance :p This strategy could be nice for screwing up opposing Weather setters on the switch, or for having awesome control over your opponents physical attacking capabilities. I have no idea how viable it is in actual play, but I still think it is an interesting strategy that, if played well with, could prove to be annoying as hell for your opponent very useful for your weather reliant / annoying Intimidate team.

Hope some of you can consider it's viability, or hell, even actually try this strategy out, and leave some discussion on how you could or have used it to maximum effect ~

 

[youngjake93]

So just a few minutes ago, Fusxfaranto asked the #doubles chat whether or not the move Role Play could reactivate Intimidate and Weather inducing abilities immediately. I had no idea, and neither did anyone else seem to do, so we decided to test it, so I made a quick, shitty test team that I am probably going to delete in less than 2 minutes, so we could check out it's potential effectiveness / uselessness. Here is the replay ~

Testing out Role Play + Intimidate and Role Play + Snow Warning

So that concludes that yes, it does indeed work instantly after copying the ability, and also works through protect if that somehow has any relevance :p This strategy could be nice for screwing up opposing Weather setters on the switch, or for having awesome control over your opponents physical attacking capabilities. I have no idea how viable it is in actual play, but I still think it is an interesting strategy that, if played well with, could prove to be annoying as hell for your opponent very useful for your weather reliant / annoying Intimidate team.

Hope some of you can consider it's viability, or hell, even actually try this strategy out, and leave some discussion on how you could or have used it to maximum effect ~

There's not really much to using Role Play. It is a slightly different version of Skill Swap that works through Protect. There are a pretty limited number of scenarios that Role Play would be useful, such as taking Water Absorb from Jellicent for Landorus-T. You have to be willing to give up your ability, be in a situation where you don't have access to Skill Swap or don't want that added effect, and be in a situation where the benefit to using it is enough to give it a moveslot+waste a turn to activate it.

 

[BlankZero]

Your replay is broken Laga.


I want to point out some stats from June.

Format is:
Pokemon Name - Regular Usage Stat vs 1850 Usage Stat (Comments)

Changes of note:

• Hydreigon - 16 vs 28 (Huge tank in 1850, which is confusing to me.)
• Togekiss - 25 vs 37 (Another tank, this one is such a good Follow Me support.)
• Chandelure - 32 vs 21
• Abomasnow - 36 vs 24
• Genesect - 40 vs 15 (Excellent Jump here. Genesect is a good threat in Dubs with only 1 weakness.)
• Charizard - 45 vs 92 (STOP USING CHARIZARD)
• Amoongus - 54 vs 45 (Needs more usage, just like Togekiss)
• KyuB - 57 vs 42 (Needs moar Kyub)
• Latias - 62 vs 47 (This is a good trend)
• Suicune - 87 vs 52 (Underrated Tank)
• Deo A - 127 vs 84 (Good trend)

These 3 mons basically stayed the same on the ladder, which isn't surprising, as they are either good or bad all around, especially Shuckle :P

Heatran - 15 vs 11
Breloom - 18 vs 17
Shuckle - 79 vs 71

And now for the most underrated possible threat in Doubles: Liepard!

Liepard - 157 vs 142 in Doubles

Liepard - 51 vs 41 in VGC

Aside from Divecats and possibly Liepard/Aron wombocombo, what makes Liepard's usage so much higher in VGC as compared to Doubles?

 

[Level 51]

There's not really much to using Role Play. It is a slightly different version of Skill Swap that works through Protect. There are a pretty limited number of scenarios that Role Play would be useful, such as taking Water Absorb from Jellicent for Landorus-T. You have to be willing to give up your ability, be in a situation where you don't have access to Skill Swap or don't want that added effect, and be in a situation where the benefit to using it is enough to give it a moveslot+waste a turn to activate it.

Prankster Tornadus with Role Play is actually surprisingly good, given that you can copy any ability first (almost all the time). While (from experience) it doesn't work so well when paired with your own immunity-ability 'mon, it's a good check for opponents such as Gastrodon (immune to both its STABs + Grass Knot lol), Manectric/Thundurus-T/any other Electric absorber, and perhaps most notably, Landorus-T. Role Playing its Intimidate turns an 87.5% chance to OHKO from 252+ CB Lando-T into a max of 76.92%, while simultaneously crippling your opponent's teammate. One other advantage Role Play has over Skill Swap is that your opponent doesn't get the ability you had. This means you don't have to worry about turning your Prankster over to the foe's Gastrodon and face some priority Recovers, and so forth. For the same reason, though, its utility on your own teammates is limited. I like the fact it goes through Protect too!

 

[BlankZero]

Psych Up also goes through Protect. Psych Up Latios + QD Volcarona = death.

 

[Mizuhime]

Your replay is broken Laga.


I want to point out some stats from June.

Format is:
Pokemon Name - Regular Usage Stat vs 1850 Usage Stat (Comments)

Changes of note:

• Hydreigon - 16 vs 28 (Huge tank in 1850, which is confusing to me.)
• Togekiss - 25 vs 37 (Another tank, this one is such a good Follow Me support.)
• Chandelure - 32 vs 21
• Abomasnow - 36 vs 24
• Genesect - 40 vs 15 (Excellent Jump here. Genesect is a good threat in Dubs with only 1 weakness.)
• Charizard - 45 vs 92 (STOP USING CHARIZARD)
• Amoongus - 54 vs 45 (Needs more usage, just like Togekiss)
• KyuB - 57 vs 42 (Needs moar Kyub)
• Latias - 62 vs 47 (This is a good trend)
• Suicune - 87 vs 52 (Underrated Tank)
• Deo A - 127 vs 84 (Good trend)

These 3 mons basically stayed the same on the ladder, which isn't surprising, as they are either good or bad all around, especially Shuckle :p

Heatran - 15 vs 11
Breloom - 18 vs 17
Shuckle - 79 vs 71

And now for the most underrated possible threat in Doubles: Liepard!

Liepard - 157 vs 142 in Doubles

Liepard - 51 vs 41 in VGC

Aside from Divecats and possibly Liepard/Aron wombocombo, what makes Liepard's usage so much higher in VGC as compared to Doubles?

i'll do my best to explain some of these usage stats.
Hydregion should be higher, I really have no idea why it dropped, it is bar none the best dragon within in the meta, Great stab. Powerful and just all around better then latios.
Togekiss has a very good supporting move pool and should also be higher, ( top 10 imo)
Chandy aboma is whatever to me, I don't like either of those, Genesect is just that pokemon that will be high in every single meta it can get it's hands on. Charizard is just fun to use, lol. Now Amoongus being mentioned in the same aspect of Togekiss is interesting to me here. Though yes Amoongus does have Rage Powder, a nice couple abilities(effect spore is pretty cool for doubles) and spore. Amoongus isn't as good as Togekiss because of spore. Togekiss has a better accuracy para move with twave (twave vs stun spore) and overall better utility then Amoonguss, Togekiss also gets tailwind, and it can do something offensively. If sleep clause rules were different, Amoonguss usage would probably be higher then it is. Kyurem-b is good but intimidate weak, fighting weak, so I think that's a good usage stat for it. Latias cune, and Deo-A whatever, they good where they at. Breloom and Heatran will always be near the top of usage, and shuckle is hilariously good at one thing pissing people off lol. Now the last thing i'm going to post about is indeed Liepard. Now Liepard can be good, and it can be very bad. Very good thanks to Prankster ability, fake out, Encore and swagger + dark gem foul play. But swagger involves a lot of luck. It can work wonders and back fire completely all in the same battle. Bad because, typing, weak to fighting and bug, also not very bulky. and if you're playing against a smart player, they won't fall for Liepard games at all, and you're basically running a 3v4 off the start, of in the case of Doubles 5v6. Liepards best partner is Breloom, since they A) Can't protect, B) will be forced to switch a lot, which is horrible against spore spam in vgc. which also explains the difference in usage, Smog Doubles regardless of Liepards partner it only its partner, only one pokemon is going to sleep. Where in VGC the sleep clause doesn't exist, so spore spam can be hilarious to use. Though I digress, Liepard isn't as high in Doubles because of sleep clause. Also, I would never use Liepard on a serious team, mostly just to fuck around with sleep clause and spore spam

 

[BlankZero]

i'll do my best to explain some of these usage stats.
Hydregion should be higher, I really have no idea why it dropped, it is bar none the best dragon within in the meta, Great stab. Powerful and just all around better then latios.
Togekiss has a very good supporting move pool and should also be higher, ( top 10 imo)
Chandy aboma is whatever to me, I don't like either of those, Genesect is just that pokemon that will be high in every single meta it can get it's hands on. Charizard is just fun to use, lol. Now Amoongus being mentioned in the same aspect of Togekiss is interesting to me here. Though yes Amoongus does have Rage Powder, a nice couple abilities(effect spore is pretty cool for doubles) and spore. Amoongus isn't as good as Togekiss because of spore. Togekiss has a better accuracy para move with twave (twave vs stun spore) and overall better utility then Amoonguss, Togekiss also gets tailwind, and it can do something offensively. If sleep clause rules were different, Amoonguss usage would probably be higher then it is. Kyurem-b is good but intimidate weak, fighting weak, so I think that's a good usage stat for it. Latias cune, and Deo-A whatever, they good where they at. Breloom and Heatran will always be near the top of usage, and shuckle is hilariously good at one thing pissing people off lol. Now the last thing i'm going to post about is indeed Liepard. Now Liepard can be good, and it can be very bad. Very good thanks to Prankster ability, fake out, Encore and swagger + dark gem foul play. But swagger involves a lot of luck. It can work wonders and back fire completely all in the same battle. Bad because, typing, weak to fighting and bug, also not very bulky. and if you're playing against a smart player, they won't fall for Liepard games at all, and you're basically running a 3v4 off the start, of in the case of Doubles 5v6. Liepards best partner is Breloom, since they A) Can't protect, B) will be forced to switch a lot, which is horrible against spore spam in vgc. which also explains the difference in usage, Smog Doubles regardless of Liepards partner it only its partner, only one pokemon is going to sleep. Where in VGC the sleep clause doesn't exist, so spore spam can be hilarious to use. Though I digress, Liepard isn't as high in Doubles because of sleep clause. Also, I would never use Liepard on a serious team, mostly just to fuck around with sleep clause and spore spam

I actually agree with you more about Hydreigon now after having used a bit more. I do find Lati@s too be more immediately useful, just due to the much higher base speed, but Hyd's hole-punching power, coverage, and overall badass-ness are definitely game winners.

Togekiss is a great utility mon. Follow Me, ParaFlinchHax, good bulk, Utility, etc. I wish it had a better offensive presence, as the NP set just doesn't work well in Doubles.

Chandy and Aboma are HailRoom Staples really, so as Hail gets more popular, I think we'll see a rise in those two, as HailRoom is currently the best Hail team. HailWind is a close second though.

Genesect is fun for shenanigans mainly.

Amoongus, to me, is a great utility mon. It works wonders with RP and Regenerator, Spores shit, has fantastic bulk, Fighting resist, Electric resist, although it is weak to almost all spread moves, you can shut things down in TR with Spore and swap out to regain some HP, unless you want to Troll with RP Effect Spore for Fake Out users. I really think it should get more usage, as the little bugger is great for playing head games. He lacks an offensive presence, of course, so maybe 20's in usage would be ok?

Latias is a fantastic mon that should be much closer to Latios in usage. trading a bit of power for more bulk should always be good, especially when the numbers are so close. they get the same movepool as well, so idk what's the big deal.

Suicune is just a fun mon, and pairs so very well with Breloom offensively and defensively, and on Tailwind teams, the two are just ridiculous together. I think it should get more usage, if nothing else, as a great bulky water that works outside of TR. It's also one the very few TW users NOT weak to Ice, which is amazing to me.

DoeA is just the best glass cannon ever, pairs well with 2 S rank mons (top and TTar), and needs hardly any support at all to threaten and destroy teams. It should be sitting up towards the 40's at least. I think it's just that people don't know it's allowed, like a lot of things. (Shaymin, Blaziken, etc)

Liepard though. I appreciate the explanation. I was very curious why they had a 100+ difference in usage. Sleep Clause causing that makes sense to me. Thanks!

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-38404667

Team with slaking and terracott with a 1900+ rating, why is this ;_;
In other news, testing out teeter dance ludicolo and quite enjoying it, the move really does cause a lot of trouble for some teams and causes plenty of ragequits.

 

[Nollan]

Recently I have had a lot of success with my Rain team featuring a Rain Dance Thundurus. If the opponent has something troubling to Rain like Rotom-Wash, I simply bring in Thundurus instead and set up Rain with it. Additionally, since it can set Rain with priority, it can catch many teams off guard. For example, in a battle vs a Sun team, my opponent has just brought in Ninetales to switch the weather to Sun, and had Charizard as its partner vs my Thundurus and Politoed. I caught him by suprise, using Rain Dance while he used double Heat Wave, expecting me to switch out Politoed, and then I KOd Ninetales with Scald, winning the weather war.

I've been trying out a unique Mew set recently. Here it is:

Mew @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fake Out
- Helping Hand
- Will O' Wisp/Zen Headbutt/Thunder Wave
- After You

I've been using this on a Trick Room team. It is obviously very fast, and that is the point. After You allows me to set Trick Room without the -7 priority. Mew also has 100/100/100 bulk, which makes it one of the bulkiest pokemon with access to After You. The set is EVd to give me a lot of bulk and speed. Once in Trick Room, I usually use Helping Hand to juice up my allies' attacks, or burn things with Will O' Wisp. It has been very helpful thus far.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

I'd be interested to see that mew in action seems like a cool set. Depending on the rest of the team you might want to run something like gravity to boost the accuracy of other more powerful moves to secure more KOs with little risk. So post some replays pls.

 

[Nollan]

Yeah, for the most part I am not a fan of Trick Room, since most teams have ways to counter it. For the most part that was in a recreational team, but I think I'll try some rated matches to see how it fares.

-EDIT-
Here is a replay vs DreMZ, really shows Mew's utility, in fact, I can say that After You is probably the reason I won. (replay contains language)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nollansfactory-smogondoubles-276

 

[nyttyn]

Considering BW2 fixed the Sky Drop glitch....

Can we please get it unbanned already?

 

[Laga]

Recently I have had a lot of success with my Rain team featuring a Rain Dance Thundurus. If the opponent has something troubling to Rain like Rotom-Wash, I simply bring in Thundurus instead and set up Rain with it. Additionally, since it can set Rain with priority, it can catch many teams off guard. For example, in a battle vs a Sun team, my opponent has just brought in Ninetales to switch the weather to Sun, and had Charizard as its partner vs my Thundurus and Politoed. I caught him by suprise, using Rain Dance while he used double Heat Wave, expecting me to switch out Politoed, and then I KOd Ninetales with Scald, winning the weather war.

I've been trying out a unique Mew set recently. Here it is:

Mew @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fake Out
- Helping Hand
- Will O' Wisp/Zen Headbutt/Thunder Wave (IMO you should run U-Turn/Volt Switch here on Trick Room teams)
- After You

I've been using this on a Trick Room team. It is obviously very fast, and that is the point. After You allows me to set Trick Room without the -7 priority. Mew also has 100/100/100 bulk, which makes it one of the bulkiest pokemon with access to After You. The set is EVd to give me a lot of bulk and speed. Once in Trick Room, I usually use Helping Hand to juice up my allies' attacks, or burn things with Will O' Wisp. It has been very helpful thus far.

This is a very fantastic idea Nollan. I have personally used After You a lot when I first started doubles (with Focus Punch which btw sucks and with Eruption most of the time). I never really thought about using it for Trick Room though, and Mew is clearly one hell of a supporter for getting up Trick Room, with not only fast After You, but also fast Fake Out. One thing I would recommend to try though, is U-Turn or Volt Switch, since when Trick Room, you get to use a "slow" U-Turn / Volt Switch for a free switch into a Trick Room sweeper. I am sure as hell making a team with this set :p

Extremely creative idea, great to see Mew receiving a job that it is not outclassed in performing :]

 

[Nollan]

Yeah, I've actually been running Trick Room in that third slot in case my other setters get eliminated early on, or if I expect the opponent to Fake Out my other setter, etc. I'd like to try U-turn though :) .

-EDIT-
I think the Topic of the Week # 4 is still going, so I guess I'll reply.

-What are good ways to come up with a starting point for a team?
The most common way I start my teams is simply coming up with a pokemon that I haven't used recently. While this might seem a bit odd, by starting with something I haven't used, I keep the variety and diversity in my teams, preventing them from becoming too predictable. When I choose a pokemon, I generally begin to think about what pairs well with it, where does it operate at its best, and what are its weaknesses, then build from there.

-What do you do in teambuilding once you've come up with your initial core?
For me, this is sorta skipping a step, which is building my "core". After I have chose a pokemon, I then choose a pokemon that can support its flaws. For example, in a team that I chose Darkrai for, I followed with Hitmontop, since they cover eachother's weaknesses fairly well, and Hitmontop's Fake Out and Intimidate support really help extend Darkrai's durability. This can sometimes extend to three, if the first two have shared weaknesses as well.
Once that is done, I start focusing on the "where does it operate at its best". In general, this is where I choose my team's overall strategy. In my team where I started with Darkrai, I chose to support it with Sand, which helps some of the OHKOs it barely misses out on to get achieved. From there I build based on the strategy, while added counters to general weaknesses of the overall strategy. For example, I chose Gastrodon on my team, in order to give Rain teams more difficulty, and make Trick Room's life harder, given the fast-paced nature of my team.

-How much of your team do you have rely on one strategy?
I generally will only have a small portion (1-2 pokemon) reliant on a strategy, if any. For the most part, my team will generally benefit from the strategy in more subtle ways. However, I often have a pokemon that is very reliant on weather, such as Excadrill.

-How much of your team should be devoted to helping check opposing strategies?
In this case, it is typically whatever gets the job done. In my team's case, Gastrodon was what was required to keep Rain teams in line, and for Trick Room my Hitmontop + Darkrai lead usually got the job done, but for backup, I ran no speeds IVs with a Quiet Nature on Gastrodon.

-How do you go about revising your team once you've made it?
When I finish with the team, I begin playtesting, and from there, I keep an eye of what gives trouble to my team. If I find something incredibly difficult to deal with, I try to build around it. For example, on a Rain team I ran, I was having incredible difficulty with Manual Sun teams. So I ran Rain Dance over Hidden Power [Ice] on Thundurus, and found dealing with those particular teams was much easier.

 

[Arcticblast]

Considering BW2 fixed the Sky Drop glitch....

Can we please get it unbanned already?

I haven't heard this before, and afaik it's still banned on Random Matchup and in VGC. Source?