Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk II

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Proposal: Change the crash damage for Bounce*, Fly*, Sky Drop*, Jump Kick and Hi Jump Kick to 2 * Weight Class + 4. Credit goes to Flamestrike for the numbers.

Reason: It's balanced, it's logical, it's simple. The current way is balanced, not logical, and arguably not as simple.

Balanced: Note that in all scenarios in which crash damage occurs, the Pokemon is already missing with the attack. Even 6 damage on a WC 1 Pokemon is going to leave a bit of a mark. However, the increases are not humongous - WC 3 and 4 Pokemon only take 10 and 12 crash damage respectively, which is sometimes slightly more than and sometimes the same as the amount of crash damage they'd take under the current system (with the exception of Hi Jump Kick against a Fighting-weak opponent). Even the main extreme cases of Gyarados (16 damage) and Colossoil (24 damage, but let's be honest, Colossoil is already strong as heck) produce reasonably balanced results.

Logical: Because when you're not even hitting the opponent but are instead crashing onto the floor, what difference does it make whether you were targeting Aggron or Heracross?

Simple: Multiply one variable integer by one constant, and then add another constant. You do this whenever you calculate the BAP of WC-based moves already, and you're sometimes using decimals in that. Compare this to the current system in which you have to do an entire damage calculation and then modify the result even further.

* The crash damage for these moves is for when the user of them (or target of Sky Drop) is hit by Smack Down or someone else uses Gravity before they come down.
 
I support the change to crash damage, if only because it's simple and makes a lot more logical sense (why does the damage you take slamming into the ground have anything to do with how much damage you would have done if you hit the opponent ?_?). Also support the change to Bodyblock because fuck that noise.
 
CT=None Bodyblock: Support. Dodge got changed to CT=None, so makes logical sense to do the same to Bodyblock. Wondering if this'll get a Discussion before Voting.


Because when you're not even hitting the opponent but are instead crashing onto the floor, what difference does it make whether you were targeting Aggron or Heracross?
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Crash damage based on WC: Support. makes sense, but storm's moving from IRC to the forums.

Lesson learned: Differentiate between "mechanics" and "policy".
 
One quick issue which recently arised with Helping Hand and which I'd like to be cleared out (if anything, because of how frequently Helping Hand is used in raids): which are the modifiers to BAP which are applied before Helping Hand (if there are any)? More in particular:

1) Does Technician apply before Helping Hand?
2) Does the weight boost/nerf from Heavy Metal, Iron Ball, Power items, and Light Metal apply before Helping Hand? What about Heavy Metal's additional (2) bonus?

And finally, when is Helping Hand's energy cost applied (assuming it makes the difference in a particular situation)? We have at least three different solutions:

1) The base energy cost is paid upon immediate use, while the added energy cost due to the buffed move's BP is paid when the ally actually uses the buffed move (similarly to how Protect currently works). This would mean, among other things, that a Cinccino with 2 energy left who uses Helping Hand on a Tyranitar's Stone Edge would faint before Tyranitar's action, while the same Cinccino with 10 energy would faint immediately after Tyranitar's action. It is debatable whether in the first instance Tyranitar would still benefit of HH boost or not
2) The entire energy cost is paid upon use of Helping Hand. It is more or less the same situation of case (1), except that if the HH user faints to energy exhaustion he faints immediately after using HH. We could also decide if, in this case, the HH boost still applies or not.
3) The entire energy cost is paid upon use of the move buffed by Helping Hand. It is more or less the same situation of case (1), except that if the HH user faints to energy exhaustion he faints immediately after the ally's action. In this case, obviously, the HH buff would always apply.
 
zarator said:
One quick issue which recently arised with Helping Hand and which I'd like to be cleared out (if anything, because of how frequently Helping Hand is used in raids): which are the modifiers to BAP which are applied before Helping Hand (if there are any)? More in particular:

1) Does Technician apply before Helping Hand?
2) Does the weight boost/nerf from Heavy Metal, Iron Ball, Power items, and Light Metal apply before Helping Hand? What about Heavy Metal's additional (2) bonus?
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Well, I know the spread penalty is applied after, so anything that's applied after the spread penalty is applied after Helping Hand. Therefore, Heavy Metal's additional +2 bonus would be after. The actual changes to the Weight Class of the Pokemon, however, affect the raw BAP of moves like Head Smash and Giga Impact, so those apply before Helping Hand. Technician's a bit of a trickier one, although I would guess before since otherwise Helping Hand would raise its BAP so high that the move would no longer be eligible for Technician.

This should probably be verified though before we add it to Helping Hand's description.

zarator said:
And finally, when is Helping Hand's energy cost applied (assuming it makes the difference in a particular situation)? We have at least three different solutions:

1) The base energy cost is paid upon immediate use, while the added energy cost due to the buffed move's BP is paid when the ally actually uses the buffed move (similarly to how Protect currently works). This would mean, among other things, that a Cinccino with 2 energy left who uses Helping Hand on a Tyranitar's Stone Edge would faint before Tyranitar's action, while the same Cinccino with 10 energy would faint immediately after Tyranitar's action. It is debatable whether in the first instance Tyranitar would still benefit of HH boost or not
2) The entire energy cost is paid upon use of Helping Hand. It is more or less the same situation of case (1), except that if the HH user faints to energy exhaustion he faints immediately after using HH. We could also decide if, in this case, the HH boost still applies or not.
3) The entire energy cost is paid upon use of the move buffed by Helping Hand. It is more or less the same situation of case (1), except that if the HH user faints to energy exhaustion he faints immediately after the ally's action. In this case, obviously, the HH buff would always apply.
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I think the current way we do it is number 2 and the Helping Hand user fainting does not mean the move's power is reset to normal. But I could see a case being made for us to use 1 or 3, although in these cases if the Helping Hand user is knocked out by an enemy's move, that would mean the Helping Hand boost would no longer apply to the target of Helping Hand.

EDIT: The flavour of Helping Hand says "The Pokemon releases a bolt of blue energy, doubling the Base Attack Power of another ally’s move in the same action." so it sounds to me like once Helping Hand has been used successfully, it shouldn't matter whether or not the Helping Hand user faints, since the target's move has already received the buff.
 
Let's talk about Normalize.

Deck Knight said:
Normalize:

Type: Toggle

This Pokemon has mastered Normal-type attacks and can change any attack type to have a Normal energy signature. All attacks used by the Pokemon are considered Normal-type attacks, although they retain the same status-inducing and other properties. The Pokemon's Normal-type attacks will have four (4) more Base Attack Power. When toggled, there is no effect.

Pokemon with this ability: Skitty, Delcatty, Voodoll.
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Question: Does the +4 BAP apply to those moves that are Normal-type before the type change or after?

If it's after, then that means all the Pokemon's moves get +4 BAP, meaning those that were originally not Normal-type get a total of +7 BAP thanks to STAB, which is pretty ridiculous. A BAP boost of 4 is already more than practically everything else in ASB. This suggests that it should be before, but the wording can easily be interpreted to mean after.

Proposal: Change Normalize's description to the following:

Normalize:

Type: Toggle

This Pokemon has mastered Normal-type attacks and can change any attack type to have a Normal energy signature. The Pokemon's Normal-type attacks will have four (4) more Base Attack Power, while its non-Normal-type attacks change to Normal-type, although they retain the same status-inducing and other properties and do not receive the Base Attack Power boost from this ability. When toggled, there is no effect.

Pokemon with this ability: Skitty, Delcatty, Voodoll.
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Just a minor clarification, no change at all. Yeah the previous description was supposed to mean what the proposed description means, but it is just sketchy grammar that has caused the confusion. We could always just fiat & implement the altered wording right away if we wanted to—especially given it does not have any ramifications to game balance whatsoever—but otherwise, just punt it directly to a vote. Screw what the OP says; we have money. 8)
 
Psych Up. As it stands the way that the move works is unintelligible.

Does it Decay? If it does, we have a problem, since it pulls both positive and negative stats of potentially different values, which our current decay system doesn't handle - unless we treat each boost as being separate. Alternatively, the boosts can be permanent, but then we really need to clarify that.
 
Dunno where to post this so it's going here.

Can each of the committees get reorganized? Right now they seem basically non-existent (when was the last time an RP was approved / wtf is going on with gyms). Can the members that are still active on each of these start doing stuff and fill the slots of people that are inactive/stepped down? Talk to people on IRC or something I guess, but it'd be really nice if we could get things going...

EDIT: imo regarding Psych Up we should just have the stats decay at the same time as the opponent's. It makes it wayyy easier
 
If Psych Up decays with the opponent, then it becomes even more useless than it is now (pretty useless). I'd rather just treat it in accordance to the rules we have in place now, with decay dependent on how many stats and by what degree they are boosted, with negative and positive boosts being treated equally.

Also quick fix though I'm so sleepy it might not be a fix after all also I agree with the suggestion:
Normalize:

Type: Toggle

This Pokemon has mastered Normal-type attacks and can change any attack type to have a Normal energy signature. The Pokemon's Normal-type attacks will have four (4) more Base Attack Power. Its other attacks will change their typing to Normal, retain status-inducing and other properties, and not receive the Base Attack Power boost from this ability. When toggled, there is no effect.

Pokemon with this ability: Skitty, Delcatty, Voodoll.
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Last time I talked with MK I think we agreed that we'd go with a two man committee for the moment, and that we'd wrapped up any pressing gym issues there at that point in time.
 
Helping Hand: Supporting Obj's answer to Zar's question. There's a voice within me that would like to make HH more realistic, a.k.a. actually make Helping Hand happens in real time (say, two Pokemons charging up a buffed Hyper Beam together) rather than a turn-based energy transfer. But unless this idea of mine gets a decent level of support, let's save some time by not going down that road (wow I sound much older and more tired than I used to).


Normalize: Considering that Moon Stone +Atk Delcatty is capable of dealing 20 neutral damage per action using nothing but un-boosted Return to a R3 Defense mon (Dragon Fang +Atk Haxorus deals 20 neutral damage without factoring Rivalry, by comparison), I think it's unnecessary for Delcatty to be able to get a +4 damage boost from, say, a Normal-typed Blizzard that can freeze in multiples, or a Normal-typed Zen Headbutt. Support without discussion, please?

Psych Up: Supporting Engi's proposal that it is treated the same as all other stage boosts. It avoids contingencies where the opponent you Psych'ed Up switches out, or gets KO'ed or whatnot.
 
@ Geodude6: That is out of the control of the ASB council. Given it is technically a buff, I am afraid you are going to have to ring it past Deck. We do not have the powers to do that sort of thing any more. :S
 
[02:56:02] <elevator_music> hahaa can you seriously not encore chills
[02:56:04] <elevator_music> thats so dumb

Dunno when it was nerfed like that but imo that's kind of too much of a nerf. Not even mentioning that because Encore also doesn't work on Dodge, Encore is entirely useless when ordering first....

there has to be a better balance between OP and shit
 
Yeah, I agree, encore is good but it's been overnerfed, you should be able to encore every single move the opponent uses, with no actions (cooldown, confusion, flinch, etc...) and "double" actions (combos) being ignored in favor of the last completed single action. I mean it's got enough restrictions for it to be game breaking and I think if you can use it to empty your opponent of recoveries then you can use it on chills

Support:
Normalize proposal: Delcatty is strong and it makes sense her regular normal moves where the ones to get the boost

Engi's Psych Up: While more complicated it's the best from of a move that pretty much nobody uses, you manage to refresh the stat boosts and get enough time for them to have been worth the use of Psych Up!, otherwise it goes from ok niche to awful niche
 
RE Normalise: I suppose I'll be the malingering opposing vote to it only hitting normal-type moves - there aren't many moves outside of normal with effects to make up for the power of the base moves, and I doubt people will sacrifice power to gain a 10% Burn Rate, etc.
 
Requesting clarification on Truant (Or Sluggish) vs. Choice Items when using moves that cost more EN than the Sluggish threshold bar. We have already clarified Truant mons using Giga Impact, Hyper Beam & friends to cause Exhausted status, but nothing else. Like, what do I do if I am spamming Choice Band Body Slam with Slaking, or spamming Choice Specs Hyper Beam with Porygon-Z? Of course if this has already been clarified, ignore this, but this grey area is just 9.9. idk how we should solve this, but this probably needs to be codified or whatever.

Bunch of shit for reference:
Sluggish said:
Hyper Beam style moves cause the Pokemon to become Sluggish, regardless of STAB. Sluggish will prevent the user from using Protective (Protect / Detect) or Evasive attacks (Teleport, Agility, Dodge) damaging attacks with a Base Energy Cost greater than 5 and non-damaging attacks with a Base Energy Cost greater than 8. Attacks with a variable Energy Cost will use the adjusted value as their base. Sluggish Pokemon cannot Bodyblock, Dodge, or Take Cover. This is factored before ability adjustments or other Base Attack Power boosts with the exceptions of Technician and Skill Link, as they adjust the cumulative Base Attack Power of multi-hit moves. Moves that make Pokemon sluggish only make them sluggish for the next action, which does include the action after the cooldown period if used in a combination.
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Truant said:
Truant:

Type: Trait

This Pokemon is naturally lazy, and becomes Sluggish after every normal action. This effect takes place after completing any normal (e.g. non-Sluggish) action. If this Pokemon uses a move that would inflict Sluggish, it instead becomes Exhausted for the next action. When Exhausted, its Confusion stage will not be checked and it will not hit itself in confusion during the second action. It recovers 3% energy when Exhausted. If this Pokemon uses a Combination, it becomes Sluggish or Exhausted on the action following the cooldown of the combination. Truant can be altered or shifted by Skill Swap, Role Play, Gastro Acid, or Mummy, but is not changed by Entrainment, Simple Beam, or Worry Seed.

Pokemon with this ability: Slakoth, Slaking, Durant.
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Choice Items said:
Bag_Choice_Band_Sprite.png

Choice Band: Increases the Attack of the Pokemon by half of its current rank, rounded up. The Pokemon is allowed to choose a new move at the beginning of every round, but is forced to use that move for all actions of that round while incurring half the normal repeated move energy cost. The Pokemon is so committed to its attack once it's been successfully ordered that no attack used by the opponent can prevent it from using the chosen attack in that round. Choice-locked Pokemon are immune to the effects of Encore.

Bag_Choice_Scarf_Sprite.png

Choice Scarf: Increases the Speed of the Pokemon by 75% (x1.75) and increases base move accuracy by twenty-five (25). The Pokemon is allowed to choose a new move at the beginning of every round, but is forced to use that move for all actions of that round without incurring the repeated move energy cost. The Pokemon is so committed to its attack once it's been successfully ordered that no attack used by the opponent can prevent it from using the chosen attack in that round. Choice-locked Pokemon are immune to the effects of Encore.

Bag_Choice_Specs_Sprite.png

Choice Specs: Increases the Special Attack of the Pokemon by half of its current rank, rounded up. The Pokemon is allowed to choose a new move at the beginning of every round, but is forced to use that move for all actions of that round while incurring half the normal repeated move energy cost. The Pokemon is so committed to its attack once it's been successfully ordered that no attack used by the opponent can prevent it from using the chosen attack in that round. Choice-locked Pokemon are immune to the effects of Encore.
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Yeah, this is not really a major issue, but this kinda needs a clarification of some sort... -.-'
 
I guess we could make it so they 'do nothing' (aka action fails) in a situation where they're locked into Giga Impact/etc while sluggish... because that's what I would do if a Pokemon was Encored into Giga Impact just as a gut reaction...


coherence ranking: d-
 
Yeah it just makes sense that they would do nothing. You are too exhausted to do... whatever, so you just don't.
 
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Double posting for the sake of emphasis.

RE: Giga Impact
<Geodude> hey deck
<Deck_Knight> Yo
<Geodude> what was the reason for that combo restriction on Giga Impact?
<Deck_Knight> I thought I removed that before I went on hiatus, since I allow all sorts of Hyperbeamy stuff
<Geodude> nope, still says it
<akela> which, when thinking about it, Rock Wrecker is a rock-typed clone of Giga Impact and it doesn't have that restriction
<Geodude> ^
<Geodude> makes no sense
<Geodude> so is this an approval to buff Giga Impact?
<Geodude> by removing the combo restriction
<akela> this is a word of god and all that matters
<Deck_Knight> Yes
<Deck_Knight> WORD OF GOD
<Deck_Knight> IT DESCENDS UPON YE
 
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