What's the purpose of this requirement? Win-Loss rate is not skill-indicative on a ladder environment; all players trend towards a 50% win-loss rate regardless of skill level. If you're a strong player with a high Win-Loss, you'll be matched up against similarly strong players and have your Win-Loss drop (likewise in the other direction). It punishes high level players for playing high level games in a new meta, which is the entire point of the suspect test in the first place!
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]
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What's the purpose of this requirement? Win-Loss rate is not skill-indicative on a ladder environment; all players trend towards a 50% win-loss rate regardless of skill level. If you're a strong player with a high Win-Loss, you'll be matched up against similarly strong players and have your Win-Loss drop (likewise in the other direction). It punishes high level players for playing high level games in a new meta, which is the entire point of the suspect test in the first place!
Yeah, I feel like it was the 9:1's that we needed to be more worried about. If you have a middling w/l but still have enough for reqs (at least when they were at 2100 or whatever) it means you faced good opponents
Though it's understandable with a lower glicko
Edit: Oh I see now. But that sucks because that was my plan, though minus the initial abuse :( (my glicko atm is over 3k and my gxe is 100... it's very difficult to find matches)
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Apparently there have been cases in the past where people have gotten the needed rating\deviation requirements by abusing the way the ladder is programmed and with a ridiculously low win\loss ratio. As you might have noticed, we've made the voting requirements a bit harder to achieve in order to improve the quality of the voting pool. The new win\loss ratio requirement moves in that direction. I'll let @Aldaron explain it better, though.
The problem is, most of those are defensive checks to Keldeo. Offense cannot deal with scarf Keldeo without scarf latios which is massive ttar bait. Stall and Balance has an easier time playing against Keldeo because they can make teams out of keldeo checks and still work. Offense can't double up on Keldeo checks the same way that stall can. I find Keldeo to be the exact opposite of Landorus, Lando just destroyed Stall and Balance and could harly touch offense whereas Keldeo mauls offense and is average vs. stall. What I find most broken about Keldeo is its ability to blow through its checks and 'counters' easily with the change of a hidden power. The hidden power type is only revealed once it attacks and thus can catch your check off guard, either killing it or crippling it. Or it can just flat out destroy everything but water immunes with specs hydro pump in the rain. Safe 'counters' such as ammoongus and max HP latias get killed by specs hyrdro pump. I'd hardly call Latios a check.
when you guys say stuff like "offense" and "stall" and "balance" you have to be more specific... All teams aren't created the same. I am torn on keldeo basically because there really haven't been any real ingame examples (logs ect) of keldeo being a constant threat all game long. I think if keldeo had a u-turn type of move it would be 100% broken but since it has to switch in on a possible move or come in on the revenge and reveal it's set I am not 100% convinced yet. Keldeo has a very predictable move pool. Hydro pump, surf and secret sword can easily be set up on with the appropriate pokemon. HP bug and ghost are okay but they are pretty weak and they most likely give up the item of the keldeo (which is most important in dealing with it). Fortunately finding out its item isn't hard after a little trip the the damage calculator... After that you can just play pokemon and deal with it like you did when building your team. One of my favorite things to do is sack something to keldeo and bring something obnoxious like a charge beam alakazam. One of my favorite plays is to bring in a lati@s and then double switch to something like a terrakion or lucario to regain momentum if they bring in a tyranitar or jirachi. I just want to see more out of the people that say it should be banned. We should move past theorymon without any stats or logs to back it up.
At the moment if I get reqs I plan to vote abstain tbh. I think both sides do have very good arguments. I could be learning towards banning Keldeo, but if I'm not sure by the end of this test, my vote with be abstain. Also lol at how bad this thread is already.
Why do people act like there's no way to deal with Keldeo? Latias avoids a 2hko from Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump in the rain most of the time and can just spam recover and wait for the inevitable miss, it fails to be 2hko'd by icy wind, allowing for a misplay here and there. Latios is failed to be Ohko'd by anything keldeo carries and can outspeed and Ohko back with Draco Meteor or Psyshock. Specially Defensive Celebi isn't 2hkod by anything Specs Keldeo carries, not to mention stuff like Amoonguss and toxicroak which resist both of Keldeo's Stabs that check it with the right prediction. What I'm trying to say is Keldeo isn't without its counters and has plenty of other checks, Latios and Terrakion can outspeed and 2hko a lot of the metagame. Keldeo is a big enough threat to merit the use of Baton Pass on Celebi and Reflect Type on Lati@s to avoid getting fucked up by pursuit trappers.
the thing about keldeo is that while each set has 100% counters, all of those counters are usually pretty specifically tailored to stall/defensive teams. spdef amoonguss, celebi, jellicent, gastrodon. none of those really fit on offensive teams, and we all know how well LO lati@s tanks expert belt keldeo (poorly). it becomes exceedingly hard to build an offensive or balanced team that doesn't lose a pokemon or large amount of momentum when keldeo comes in. and, as we also know, keldeo is pretty resilient with its SR resist and solid resists.
i don't think anyone is arguing that keldeo doesn't have counters, because it does, or that keldeo is OBSCENELY broken like, say, darkrai would be. the argument is that the metagame would be far more enjoyable if something that is teetering on the edge of broken-not broken (such as keldeo!) was banned.
also, ignoring the fact that keldeo can't have every set at once, the specs set is pretty obscene in rain.
i don't think anyone is arguing that keldeo doesn't have counters, because it does, or that keldeo is OBSCENELY broken like, say, darkrai would be. the argument is that the metagame would be far more enjoyable if something that is teetering on the edge of broken-not broken (such as keldeo!) was banned.
also, ignoring the fact that keldeo can't have every set at once, the specs set is pretty obscene in rain.
Idk what kind of offensive team you use, but keldeo is ridiculously easy for offense to work around in general, while if say kyurem-b gets in on something that can't OHKO it, I lose a poke and they don't even have to predict.
Realistically, Keldeo doesn't really have counters.. But it's incredibly easy to check, stall can easily afford to run multiple checks due to how well they all work in that environment, balance can typically run atleast 2 checks, and probably has the most problems with keldeo ( I'm not sure, balance is a playstyle I typically stay away from ), offense can play around expert belt easily, and turns choiced keldeo into set-up fodder.
We don't counter shit, we run multiple checks for every relevant threat, this is how bw2 works. Welcome.
The metagame would be far more enjoyable if people didn't try to ban everything that they don't want to prepare for
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Fair enough, I await Aldaron's explanation. Though to be clear, the low Win-Loss rate is a clear byproduct of the abuse method, not just "We observed some high level players with low Win-Loss rates" ?
"offense can play around expert belt easily"
yeah if youre playing in ladder against a moron. youre p much telling me here you can know what keldeo will do every single turn in order to beat it without losing anything. oh and by the way, thats just expert belt, offense trying to beat scarf or specs is another story.
id love to see what sets up on specs keldeo really. dragonite? if sr is up he cant anymore. gyarados? 2hkod by hpump and will have to use bounce. feraligatr takes even more if youre going that way.
also i find it funny youre trying to lecture a succesful tournament player in how bw2 works lol. and please stop saying we want to ban shit for the sake of it, thats absolutely pointless and retarded because we have made arguments in past threads and you keep going for the "whiny kids tryna ban errythin!!!"
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 162-191 (51.75 - 61.02%) -- 96.09% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Weather
Okay, hun
but if you mean while locked into hpump, toxi isn't the hardest thing to deal with.
Are you really using specs keldeo to spam HP ghost? Good luck with that.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 56-67 (17.33 - 20.74%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 114-135 (32.29 - 38.24%) -- 1.37% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 133-157 (41.82 - 49.37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
if you can change the moves I can change the pokemon. And toxicroak is a legit threat to many teams especially late game.
I think that Keldeo have the same potential like Landorus also dont need a free turn like Landorus if runs Choice Scarf, Keldeo needs less prediction honestly, most of the times just only have to spam Hydro Pump in Rain, Choice Specs in Rain is scary and like I said needs no prediction and to check this you need at least a specially defensive mon with a resist to water + recover / roost or w/e like Slowking, Celebi or Latias, you're forced to recover after the Hydro Pumo hit anyways and some of this mons are very susceptible to pursuit (Scizor / Weavile). In the other case, you need a water inmunity like Jellicent or Toxicroak, the first only fits some teams and the last only in Rain teams. This is the most dangerous Keldeo aspect thought.
guess what kiddo, if SR is up all of those can be 2HKOd with hp ghost.
did you forget secret sword is stronger vs gyarados, to the point of it being a 2hko? and Dnite takes 37% in average, which makes it around a 50/50 on whether you can 2HKO with secret sword or not.
thanks for making our point stronger!!
Responses in bold.
Personally I wouldn't bring in a gyarados into most pokemon with SR up. But apparently in your bubble of pokemon mastery people actually consider that to be a good strategy since you first brought it up. This is why theorymon arguing is stupid. You say something like nothing can set up on specs keldeo then i bring up something and another random guy gives a random HP that happens to 2hko it. Guess what? HP flying KOs toxicroak. You can't conveniently switch moves after babbling about one move being the end all be all of the set. Are we switching in? Are we coming in? Are we making a double switch? Did the game just start? It really makes your argument look bad when the keldeo user can play like a chess computer. The point is Toxicroak can come in on the double switch or revenge and set up on any standard keldeo set . It can come in on almost all of keldeos moves and set up, drain punch or SD (i know keldeo user has every pokemon and move available including landorus-t).I am not saying toxicroak is the end of keldeo's question of brokenness but understand competitive battle conditions and don't be so linear when explaining stuff.. It is a good check to have for keldeo and rain teams in general. Show me some logs.
The sets I think people should be generally referring to in their arguments:
These are the common sets.
Scarf: (HP elec + icy is a weaker option)
Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden power [Ice]
- Surf
Specs: (specs can use hp electric, but HP Ghost is preferred in rain)
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Icy Wind
Expert Belt:
Keldeo @ Expert Belt
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Icy Wind
Calm Mind:
Keldeo @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden power [Ice]
- Surf
Specs: (specs can use hp electric, but HP Ghost is preferred in rain)
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Icy Wind
Expert Belt:
Keldeo @ Expert Belt
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Icy Wind
Calm Mind:
Keldeo @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
These are the common sets.
Just wanting to post and say that its pretty hilarious how inflated the ladder is. I think after my 4th or 5th match i was already in 2000+ and pretty soon i hit the 2500-2600 range which I never left. I was also one of the first ladderers so its not like I was playing 2000+ players from the start.
I'll post thoughts on the suspect in a bit, but at the moment I'm leaning towards no ban.
Seriously? If this suspect thread is going to devolve into the pro-ban side mindlessly posting calcs where Keldeo has the perfect item, Hidden Power, prediction, and hazards/weather conditions then we might as well go back to paragraphs.
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