Word of God on Buff Culture, Data Updates, and Other Important Topics

[Deck Knight]

This discussion will be moderated to keep discussion focused.​

So I have a lot on my mind of late, and this thread is the best place to address all of it comprehensively - or rather, it WILL be that.

Topic 1. Buff Culture

The following maxims are true about ASB:

1. I have tried to give every move a balanced mix between effect, energy cost, and in some cases BAP. In some instances this goes beyond the fact that weaker moves are more efficient (mirrors the PP concept) and can often be combined.

2. When considering these added effects, I have always been open to input from the community, refs, players, etc. ASB's altered mechanics mean that some moves just don't transfer well (looking at you Pain Split and Perish Song), and need to be tweaked for serious balance issues, especially since CAP Pokemon can get some esoteric combinations of moves.

However, the buff culture is starting to get ridiculous. Buff by committee is completely out of control.

As such, I want all move buff issues channeled through me, and I will make changes as necessary considering game balance, other combinations, distribution, etc.

What makes me more qualified to do this than anyone else, you might ask? Well, I've already done this hundreds of times when drafting up the game. That's the reason for example Shell Smash, Belly Drum, Double Team, and Minimize have either permanent (as opposed to decay vulnerable) or off-stat scale effects (DT). Certain combinations have specific moves attached to them (Poison Sting being a good example) because of this analysis. Plus you know, "I built that" and the alternative is what we've been doing, which is time both time consuming, arbitrary, and endless.

Topic 2. Housekeeping on STAB Descriptions

So the STAB Descriptions are old. REALLY OLD. And with the exception of the weight limit bypass on Fighting / Psychic types respectively and ASB-transmitted natural bonuses like weather immunity/buffs, most of the STAB Descriptions are too widely interpreted or simply ignored. Thus I want to update them, get rid of the extraneous stuff, and come up with other buffs only if necessary, with a discussion of what the type can actually *do.*

Topic 3. Revamping the DAT

Just want to say I fully endorese ZhengTann's revamp of the DAT thread, parameters posted here.

I propose, after Birkal's post up there, that we start a humonguss Discussion thread to re-compile the DAT. Recompilation only involves the following:

• Rearrangement of data and information so that everything is accessible in Data Audit Thread while all other threads put links that refer back to the DAT.
• The whole community, not just any particular group, are welcomed to joined as Council directs discussion down subjects the DAT, post by post, hide tag by hide tag, line by line, word by word.
• If the community comes to an agreement that the wording of any piece of data is clear and concise, the Council moves on. If not, then discussion will be held to clarify the wording and sort out disagreements between individual interpretation.
• NOT direct buffing/nerfing to any mechanics - the Discussion only aims to compile and to clarify.
• In the meantime, Council puts all game-mechanic changing proposals on hold, at least until the DAT recompilation is complete.

Consider this a Word of God upgrade.

Any questions on this? I'll be making a few posts over the next week or so, but I wanted to get some of this on record and move forward.

 

[kingmidas]

Will this result in a whole new DAT thread or editing the old one over?

 

[Dogfish44]

Will this result in a whole new DAT thread or editing the old one over?

Whichever is more efficient - There's not going to be too much work either way.

 

[Arcanite]

With regards to the DAT revamp, is there any need for a separate referee resource thread, or would it be better off as one thread? For example, substitution rules and the Damage formula are not in the DAT as far as I am aware, and I think they should. Ref profiles can be merged with the Registration Tower profiles surely? (I'm also not sure if every ref has a reffing profile? When i reffed, I found it easier to keep it in one place)

 

[akela]

With regards to the DAT revamp, is there any need for a separate referee resource thread, or would it be better off as one thread? For example, substitution rules and the Damage formula are not in the DAT as far as I am aware, and I think they should. Ref profiles can be merged with the Registration Tower profiles surely? (I'm also not sure if every ref has a reffing profile? When i reffed, I found it easier to keep it in one place)

Honestly, I find it a lot easier to flip between 2 tabs to find all my information than scrolling up and down in one thread upwards of 20 times.

 

[ZhengTann]

Problems arise, akela, when projmods or future Councillors do hotfixes and implementation - with such scattering of information, it is likely that someone could forget to fix the changes implemented in one thread out of 3. To mitigate the headache of scrolling, Deck did use the BBcode jumping method to speed-scroll users to the right post in DAT, which I think is a good solution. Of course, if there is a better idea to navigate within one tab, feel free to push it to the limelight! Come to think of it, why not use multiple tabs for DAT to flip between them? ^_^

 

[Gerard]

On STABs: Half the STABs grant nothing that they don't already in-game and the other half is never applied anywere, Water STAB is the clearest example since I've never seen a battle that reduced the speed of a water mon such as Krill or Starmie because of being in a not-watery arena (and that's a good thing), Normal is in the same boat since "adapt comfortably to any surrounding after 3 actions" doesn't really gives you a defined boost

Also other STABs lack an actual boost, Psyquic STAB only grants a boost on using Psychic regardless of weight (since "less susceptible to blinding, more susceptible to sound-based assaults as far as locking on with Psychic attacks" is open to interpretation and pretty much unused) unlike Fighting that gets a bunch of move under the same category. Steel, Rock, Dragon, Fire, many types that get nothing more than random boosts, weak stuff or nothing they wouldn't get if only in-game benefits would translate to ASB

My Proposal: let's discuss some reasonable boost that all the mons of any given type can exploit with some little niches for the less gifted members of said types

 

[Objection]

Topic 2. Housekeeping on STAB Descriptions

So the STAB Descriptions are old. REALLY OLD. And with the exception of the weight limit bypass on Fighting / Psychic types respectively and ASB-transmitted natural bonuses like weather immunity/buffs, most of the STAB Descriptions are too widely interpreted or simply ignored. Thus I want to update them, get rid of the extraneous stuff, and come up with other buffs only if necessary, with a discussion of what the type can actually *do.*

Regarding this, I recently thought of a possible additional STAB bonus for Flying-types: "Can hit Pokemon in the evasive stage of Bounce, Fly or Sky Drop with moves that hit any single Pokemon on the field regardless of position."

It's something that makes flavourful sense - if a move is described as being able to hit any Pokemon regardless of position such as Aerial Ace, then the only thing stopping non-Flying Pokemon from hitting Pokemon in the evasive stage of a move like Fly is that they can't reach. Flying Pokemon, however, would be able to reach, much like they can reach levitating Pokemon with Dig and Dive.

Mechanically, it provides a boost that's not too powerful. Not only is the list of moves that would be affected by this not very long, but the affected moves are mostly Flying-type moves, some of which can already hit airborne opponents. Some of the moves on the list don't even really benefit from this buff: see Counter and Mirror Coat.

 

[Gerard]

STAB suggestions, since nobody else has brought some I think I can say some I've been thinking about and go from there: (changes to existing STABs are in italics)

• Bug STAB: Gains one extra attack on multi-hit moves, with a cap of five (5).
• Electric STAB; 50% reduction in paralysis chance from other electrical attacks, perfect accuracy and 30% chance of Protect breaking Thunder during Rain.}
• Dark STAB; Immunity to all telepathic and telekinetic attacks. Can use any Dark-type move regardless of Attraction.
  
• Dragon STAB; Able to use Thrash without losing focus. (?)
  
• Flying STAB; Immunity to Ground attacks except under the effects of Smack Down and Gravity. Will always hit foes with Dig (except other Flying types) and Dive. Cannot be hit by Dive unless the attacking Pokemon has a size class greater than four (4). Immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Able to hit Pokemon in the evasive stage of Bounce, Fly or Sky Drop with single target moves that hit Pokemon on the field regardless of position.
• Grass STAB; immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming "powder" attacks including Spore. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus. Recovers three (3) extra energy when using chill if sunlight is active. Able to use any attack which requires an external source of Grass to use without problem.
  
• Rock STAB; Increases the Special Defense of the Pokemon by half of its current ranks during Sandstorm, rounded up. Able to use Sand Tomb without losing focus. Able to use any attack which requires an external source of rocks to use without problem.
  
• Ice STAB; Immune to freezing and Sheer Cold. Increases the Defense of the Pokemon by half of its current ranks during Hailstorm, rounded up. Perfectly accurate and 30% Protect breaking Blizzard in Hail (Blizzard's description should be updated since this is already in the actual description)
  
• Normal STAB; Adapt comfortably to any surrounding after 3 actions, gaining two base power on moves whose type corresponds to that of the arena (ex. a Dark type arena gives a boost to Dark moves like bite), if an arena is designed for more than one type then the dominant type will get the boost. Able to use Outrage without losing focus.
  
• Poison STAB; immunity to Poison/Toxic, Immune to Fog's accuracy reduction. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus. Poison attacks cause Toxic Poison instead of regular poison (Poison Fang starts at two (2) dmg per action if used by a poison-type pokemon).
  
• Ghost STAB; Immune to Haze's accuracy reduction, brief intangibility that nullifies Normal and Fighting-type attacks and reduces the bp of non-SE contact moves by one (1).
  
• Ground STAB; Immune to all electrical attacks, Immune to Sand Attack's accuracy reduction. Able to Dig through almost any substance, Evasive Digging reduced from 6 per action Energy Cost to 5 per action.
  
• Fire STAB; Immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance from ice attacks. Takes an additional two (2) final damage if active open flames are exposed to water. Recovers one (1) energy per action if sunlight is active.
• Psychic STAB; Immune to Flash's accuracy reduction, 50% reduction in status effect chance of Hypnosis and Confusion. Can lift and throw opponents with Psychic & Telekinesis regardless of Special Attack Rank. Able to use Telekinesis without losing focus.
• Steel STAB; immune to Sandstorm. Immune to toxic attacks, but can be corroded specifically by Acid and Acid Spray, can be magnetized.
• Water STAB; Can breathe and have excellent mobility when underwater, Recovers one (1) energy per action if rain is active. Fish-like pokemon gain 25% speed if they're in a water arena such as a lake or a tank. Able to use any attack which requires an external source of water to use without problem.
  
• Fighting STAB; ignore weight restrictions on Circle Throw, Seismic Toss, Sky Drop, Storm Throw, Submission, and Vital Throw. Immune to losing Focus unless attacked while using Focus Punch

Well, what do you think? every boost was considered to give it's users a little boost while keeping the type in perspective, feel free to add some suggestions or argue against some boosts, maybe this is a good starting point so we can get boosts that don't feel like benefit a few types only

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

After discussing the edict with Deck Knight, we have decided to remove the rule whereby all move changes must go through Deck.

The reasons for this change are threefold:

1. It severely limits the abilities of the council. Of late the council has been particularly ineffective as a result of this ruling. Repealing it allows them to do their job.

2. Impracticality. In 10 days time we will receive a plethora of new moves and it is unfeasible to have Deck rule on every change we might wish to make regarding move effects.

3. Buff control. We as a whole of ASB are now noticeably aware of the former issue of constantly buffing moves. We will only change moves when there is potential for necessity. Statements such as "I don't get why X does Y. It should do Z! Discuss/Vote!" will no longer be acceptable justification for change. Move alterations should primarily take place for balancing reasons.

Thank you for your time.