np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

[Monte Cristo]

I REALLY with most of Aecor's post, while Victini is clearly one of the best Pokes in UU at the moment (yes I know that's debatable), it cleearly has it's flaws that definatly make it beatable.

Though saying it's pursuit wake basically is saying Weavile is Aura Sphere weak, yes that move highly counters it, but it has very limited UU distribution and is not used commenly on the pokes who have it in the first place :I.
Don't catch what I'm saying here? Well this is our basic list of Pokemon who learn pursuit in the UU tier: Nidoqueen, Snorlax, Crobat, Umbreon, Heracross, Houndoom, Hitmontop, Dusclops, Ambipom, Honchkrow, Weavile, Yanmega, Krookodile, Zoroark, Bisharp

And considering most of those don't even run pursuit let alone are VIABLE with pursuit (I might need to try CBBat with pursuit later though, intresting) shows how "pursuit weak" victini really is now if you really want to see how much of these pokes actually run pursuit/are viable with it here's my list: Snorlax, Houndoom, Weavile, Krookodile,(Honchkrow is very debatable as it can be effective with pursuit, but it's got better things to do than trapping, same with bisharp)

Yes we have 4 viable pursuit trappers/pokemon that actually run pursuit. And considering that none of those except scarfers and weavile can actually outspeed it (I am assuming scarf since that is one of the more popular sets and is the best one to handle pursuit trappers) And only Weavile and Houndoom force a -1 Speed Scarf Victini to switch out (krook can only beat it with scarf itself and can only come in after the drop) since only CBLax runs pursuit commonly nowadays, Snorlax isn't going to force out Tini 100% of the time.

Next point that I disagreed with, that Tini is highly sucker punch weak, I call bullshit, for UUs sake pursuit is more common and I just showed how uncommon that is alright? lets show the pokemon who have the chance to run sucker punch in UU: Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Mew, Xatu, Umbreon, Houndoom, Hitmontop, Sableye, Dusclops, Mismagius, Honchkrow, Rotom-Heat, Zoroark, Bisharp

Now lets look at those who run sucker punch often OR are viable with it(Mews SD set does count I guess,): Mew, Xatu, Houndoom, Honchkrow, Bisharp
Look at that 5 total pokemon and only Houndoom and Honchkrow can run pursuit and can SuckerTrap it, while victini can have a field day with it's Nuke and run stratagy with the rest of the pokes mentioned. So yeah, Sucker Punch isn't that good of an answer to Tini. I'll hopefully get to another argument later today, as I am really in the middle as if victini is REALLY broken or if it just dances around the line of broken and balanced.

 

[Aecor]

The reason why Pursuit and Sucker Punch were added to the discussion is because those are the most common forms of trapping and priority. No one mentions Aqua Jet because there is only 1 viable user of Aqua Jet, Azumarill. We are saying it is weak to Sucker Punch and Pursuit because those moves are far more common than Aqua Jet.

 

[Moose V]

I REALLY with most of Aecor's post

Do you agree with him or disagree with him?

Saying victini is pursuit weak is not irrelevant at all when you consider how both Snorlax and Houndoom can easily come in on victini's v-create (snorlax maybe less so depending on the set) and proceed to take it out while victini is helpless. Honchkrow is also an amazing pursuit trapper, so leaving it out of your discussion is huge. In addition, heracross and crobat have been known to run pursuit but perhaps more infrequently than others.

You seem to be missing my whole point. I'm not saying pursuit and sucker punch are the absolute bane of Victini's existence, I'm saying that they are 2 reasons why Victini is not built to last. Saying that these two moves are uncommon doesn't shoot down any of my points. Sure, Meloetta might be "rare" but that doesn't mean you can totally discard its existence and built a team with 6 psychic weak pokemon? Of course not.

A pokemon that's weak to all the things the things I mentioned in my other post exemplifies a pokemon that can be worn down relatively easily. If you want to disregard any little weakness it has, then congrats you just made Victini into a flawless pokemon that isn't weak to rocks or spikes because you could have a spinner, isn't weak to dark moves because they're uncommon, isn't weak to common water type moves because something else could take the hit and doesn't give Houndoom or Chandelure boosts because they might be running Early Bird or Flame Body when they switch into a V-create.

 

[Moose V]

How exactly does CB Snorlax beat Victini 1 on 1? CB Victini 2-shots it with V-create (yes, even with Thick Fat), and Focus Blast from the special set will 2HKO it with hazard suport as well. Special Tini is also significantly less pursuit-weak with base 100/100 defenses that aren't dropped by V-create. Also, Darmanitan's Flare Blitz might be more powerful, but Victini doesn't hurt itself with Recoil via V-create, and Victini also has much superior coverage in Bolt Strike (nailing Bulky Waters) secondary STAB in Zen Headbutt as opposed to Rock Slide and Superpower.

Can you elaborate on your last point a bit? I really don't understand why we shouldn't ban Victini because one of its moves "isn't broken". In fact, I'm pretty sure that's completely contradictory to the reason it's being suspected. It's because Victini has not only great power in V-Create, but amazing versatility with its special movepool as well.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Snorlax: 262-309 (56.83 - 67.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Return vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 366-432 (107.33 - 126.68%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you're gonna give Victini hazards support, then to maintain a fair theoretical 1 v 1 situation, Snorlax needs it too and a banded Return + Life Orb Damage + Stealth Rocks damage guarantees Victini's death. In both of these situations, I'm giving snorlax 0 Def, 0 HP and not factoring in crunch.



Obviously more experienced players like us will know that there's more to Victini than V-create. I mentioned the shortcomings of V-create because a lot of less experienced players will immediately look at 180 base power and scream "Ban!" without thinking twice. I made these points to dissuade this sort of discussion. You obviously make a good point about its coverage.


EDIT: wait I'm dumb eq has a 62.5% chance to OHKO full health vic

 

[GenXXZ]

.... I don't think Victini is all that broken.

First of all, Fire/Psychic is an absolute garbage defensive type that is weak to so many common attacking types such as water, ground, and dark, all of which bring Victini down. It only has base 100 speed, and while that is respectable, it can come across as lackluster in such a fast paced tier. Not to mention that Victini's main STAB attack lowers it's speed and it's previously respectable defensive stats.

Also V-Create is not as strong as Darm's Flare Blitz. So... Yeah.

 

[chimpact]

The last few arguments as to why victini is manageable are laughable.

Yea its defensive typing is awful; it's one of the worst in the game. Being vulnerable to every form of hazards damage, vulnerable to pursuit, weak to aqua jet's priority and the ubiquitous Rock/Ground coverage. it's hard to really bring victini in. But Victini is not suspect because of its defensive capabilities.

Yea snorlax can beat victini 1v1. In fact alot of pokemon beat victini 1v1. That's great and all, but not a lot of pokemon are capable of switching into victini. There will hardly ever be a time where a full health Snorlax will be facing a full health victini. Snorlax is the pokemon that will be switching into victini and the CB set is capable of 2hko'g it without hazards: 252 Atk Choice Band Victini (+Atk) V-create vs 252 HP/0 Def Thick Fat Snorlax: 54.96% - 64.69% (2 hits to KO). and honestly, I don't even think the V-create set is that powerful. I'd much rather use the special set.

The special set is capable of 2hko'g Snorlax (THE best switch in to special attacks) with hazards support. 252 SpAtk Life Orb Victini (+SpAtk) Psyshock vs 252 HP/0 Def Snorlax: 42.37% - 49.81% (2-3 hits to KO). Victini's 100 Base special attack may not seem like much, but the base power of its attacking moves and the coverage they provide really make up for it.

The thing about victini is that it may not be able to sweep teams by itself, but it opens up your opponent's team for something else to come in and sweep. It's just a great team player overall. You can even play it as an anti stealth rocker. A simple moveset of Blue Flare / Psyshock /Grass Knot / Glaciate can prevent most stealth rock users from setting up their hazards.

Being able to 2hko the entire team with access with u-turn is too much imo.

 

[Aecor]

Victini is hampered by its defensive capabilities. A lot of would be bigger threats, such as Yanmega and Sharpedo, are often viewed as not as threatening due to their inability to take hits whether it be through typing or stats. Again, Rhyperior is 4x weak to grass, so it's no surprise it's getting OHK'd by Grass Knot. Rhyperior is known for checking ELECTRIC TYPES for god's sake.

Victini can 2hk the entire tier, but you're missing the point. If it opts to run for that power, "wall breaking" abilities, you are stuck with 100 speed and LO damage. You're completely disregarding that other Pokes can revenge it. For example, Chandelure can OHK all forms of Victini while Victini can't OHK it back. Any Poke can be a nuke. People that run a Special Mienshao set can poop on usual counters with Grass Knot, HP Ice, HJK, and the likes with a LO.

And that 252/0/252 spread on Snorlax is garbage. There is a smogon set for a reason. Sure, it can open up teams for another Poke to sweep, but is that really what makes it broken? Are you kidding me. Any team that lacks a phaser or hazer will lose to CroCune if they lack a grass type. If they carry a grass type or water absorber, simply run a fire type. Does that make CroCune broken? Hell no. If you're losing games because of Special Victini you need to work on your team. P2 walls the special sets, can retaliate with Discharge, then finish Victini off. Snorlax commonly run Body Slam, para it, then 2hk after. Victini can be LO stalled with any sub sweeper than finished off, ie Mismagius and Raikou. I'm sick and fucking tired of people comparing things that are so easily lost to a Special Victini. Of course Victini will beat that Rhyperior, Swampert, and Bronzong; Victini has moves to hit it for big damage. That's like saying Special Cobalion is near broken because it gets passed special walls such as Umbreon and Snorlax.

People are bitching because they can't tell when's a bluff and what's not. If you know the meta, a Victini that does 6% with u-turn to a Suicine is obviously mixed of fully special. If you opt to run no SpA EV's, you only need to watch out for Grass Knot on your 4x weaks. Again, people think that Victini sets have the power of a Choice Band, wall breaking powers of Special Attacker, speed of a scarfer, and versatility of a mixed attacker. Victini gets one trait that you want. If you want to nuke physical walls, use a choice banded set. If you want to surprise usual counters and be walled by special walls, use the LO Special Set. If you want to lure out specific Pokes, use a mixed set. If you want to be a reliable avenger, use the scarfed set. In the beginning ALL of these sets are possible, but after the first couple of switch ins, more often than not the full set is revealed.

It's up to the player, NOT the Poke that is the skill. A Special Victini trying to do work when clearly I know it's special, (With me using a Claydol LOL):
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-45586058

The special set did "work," but did it really do anything that round? You simply switch out if you don't want your Poke to die. Why are people leaving in their Perts when they see Blue Flare. Clearly it has the grass knot. I thought these were the days of good meta knowledge now that 5th gen is coming to an end.

 

[Moose V]

The last few arguments as to why victini is manageable are laughable.

So you're gonna start your post by being rude by calling arguments against your point of view laughable? :)

I wasn't arguing why Victini is managable, I was pointing out ways in which it can be taken down. I'm neutral to it being banned right now so I'm sort of playing devil's advocate for those strongly for its ban so please, your rudeness is misplaced. Obviously, you bring up good points about its offensive capabilities and potentially synergy, but that still doesn't make points that it gets worn down easily "laughable".

 

[The4gotNdeath]

Froslass is amazing. It can setup Spikes, spinblock its own hazards, immune to Fighting-types, blazing speed, fast Taunt user, and it pretty much always guarantees a kill with Destiny Bond. I would go as far as saying that it's probably the best Spiker/Leads in UU. Do I think it's broken? Nah. Froslass may be an amazing lead for offensive teams, but outside of being a hazard lead, there really isn't that much it can do. Smart players can play around the suicide variants with Toxic or Thunder Wave in order to keep it from taking out one of your own members with Destiny Bond. The non suicide leads are heavily susceptible to all forms of entry hazards, and combined with her frail defenses, she wont be lasting that long. Spinners aren't a very uncommon sight in UU, making it hard for her to get the job done. She has a bit of 4MSS, because she wants to run Spikes / Shadow Ball / Taunt / Ice Beam /Destiny Bond, but she can't, forcing her to give up coverage or utility. If she chooses Ice Beam over Shadow Ball, then she's walled by Blastoise and Fire-types such as Victini and Arcanine. If she chooses Shadow Ball, then Snorlax can setup on her all day. If she chooses both, then she loses the chance to kill something with Destiny Bond, or become setup fodder against other utility Pokemon such as Ferroseed, Swampert, and Empoleon, making her susceptible to status.

All in all, Froslass is a bitch to play against, but easy to play around. She's good, but not game breaking in the slightest. I can see why many see her as broken, but at the same time, I've never found myself losing because of Froslass.

I love the UU tier, and froslass used to be one of the most common and annoying thing i saw first turn in this tier. And then i realized that since 99.99999999999% of froslass user go for taunt first, bringing in any poke that can break her sash is an almost garunteed way to counter froslass. tuant my bronzong first turn? thats fine, i will gyro ball u and break your sash. now all you have to do is switch out to your choice scarfer or non fighting / normal priority user because either A) froslass sets up spikes, then u KO or force her out B) she destiny bonds on your switch, making it useless and then proceeds to get KO or forced out C) switches out realizing that they were out played.
and if froslass isnt their lead spiker then froslass is some kind of special atk sweeper / hole puncher, and non hazard setting froslass cries at the sight of entry hazards from the opponent.

 

[The4gotNdeath]

Victini is hampered by its defensive capabilities. A lot of would be bigger threats, such as Yanmega and Sharpedo, are often viewed as not as threatening due to their inability to take hits whether it be through typing or stats. Again, Rhyperior is 4x weak to grass, so it's no surprise it's getting OHK'd by Grass Knot. Rhyperior is known for checking ELECTRIC TYPES for god's sake.

Victini can 2hk the entire tier, but you're missing the point. If it opts to run for that power, "wall breaking" abilities, you are stuck with 100 speed and LO damage. You're completely disregarding that other Pokes can revenge it. For example, Chandelure can OHK all forms of Victini while Victini can't OHK it back. Any Poke can be a nuke. People that run a Special Mienshao set can poop on usual counters with Grass Knot, HP Ice, HJK, and the likes with a LO.

And that 252/0/252 spread on Snorlax is garbage. There is a smogon set for a reason. Sure, it can open up teams for another Poke to sweep, but is that really what makes it broken? Are you kidding me. Any team that lacks a phaser or hazer will lose to CroCune if they lack a grass type. If they carry a grass type or water absorber, simply run a fire type. Does that make CroCune broken? Hell no. If you're losing games because of Special Victini you need to work on your team. P2 walls the special sets, can retaliate with Discharge, then finish Victini off. Snorlax commonly run Body Slam, para it, then 2hk after. Victini can be LO stalled with any sub sweeper than finished off, ie Mismagius and Raikou. I'm sick and fucking tired of people comparing things that are so easily lost to a Special Victini. Of course Victini will beat that Rhyperior, Swampert, and Bronzong; Victini has moves to hit it for big damage. That's like saying Special Cobalion is near broken because it gets passed special walls such as Umbreon and Snorlax.

People are bitching because they can't tell when's a bluff and what's not. If you know the meta, a Victini that does 6% with u-turn to a Suicine is obviously mixed of fully special. If you opt to run no SpA EV's, you only need to watch out for Grass Knot on your 4x weaks. Again, people think that Victini sets have the power of a Choice Band, wall breaking powers of Special Attacker, speed of a scarfer, and versatility of a mixed attacker. Victini gets one trait that you want. If you want to nuke physical walls, use a choice banded set. If you want to surprise usual counters and be walled by special walls, use the LO Special Set. If you want to lure out specific Pokes, use a mixed set. If you want to be a reliable avenger, use the scarfed set. In the beginning ALL of these sets are possible, but after the first couple of switch ins, more often than not the full set is revealed.

It's up to the player, NOT the Poke that is the skill. A Special Victini trying to do work when clearly I know it's special, (With me using a Claydol LOL):
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-45586058

The special set did "work," but did it really do anything that round? You simply switch out if you don't want your Poke to die. Why are people leaving in their Perts when they see Blue Flare. Clearly it has the grass knot. I thought these were the days of good meta knowledge now that 5th gen is coming to an end.

Why do you assume that Victini will have grass knot? When i play victini i use Blue Flare + Thunder + Focus Blast + Hp Ice / Glaciate. It gives me the same coverage as an electrivire, only with more speed and dmg, and ofc since im a victini i can improve on those 70% accuracy issues and get a 77% chance (which is relatively good chances)

 

[Aecor]

Why do you assume that Victini will have grass knot? When i play victini i use Blue Flare + Thunder + Focus Blast + Hp Ice / Glaciate. It gives me the same coverage as an electrivire, only with more speed and dmg, and ofc since im a victini i can improve on those 70% accuracy issues and get a 77% chance (which is relatively good chances)

The selling point of a special Victini is Grass Knot...

 

[Mazz]

Why do you assume that Victini will have grass knot? When i play victini i use Blue Flare + Thunder + Focus Blast + Hp Ice / Glaciate. It gives me the same coverage as an electrivire, only with more speed and dmg, and ofc since im a victini i can improve on those 70% accuracy issues and get a 77% chance (which is relatively good chances)

What is Focus Blast hitting that Blue Flare isn't? All the Dark-types in the tier, the only exception being Houndoom, are hit either super-effectively or heavily by Blue Flare, Grass Knot, and Ice-type move of your choice. Even then, Houndoom won't like having to take a Thunder anytime soon. Grass Knot is Victini's only way of bypassing Pokemon like Rhyperior and Swampert. Focus Blast, albeit a decent option for maybe things like Snorlax or Porygon2, just unnecessarily consumes a moveslot that would be better suited for Grass Knot.

 

[alexwolf]

Unless i am missing something, Blue Flare, Psyshic / Psyshock, Grass Knot, and Focus Blast is the only special set that 2HKOs everything in UU. Focus Blast is needed for both Umbreon and Snorlax, getting guaranteed 2HKOes with SR up. Also why would anyone use Thunder when Grass Knot already takes care of Water-types while covering Swampert and Rhyperior too, two Pokemon that Thunder does nothing against?

 

[Mazz]

Unless i am missing something, Blue Flare, Psyshic / Psyshock, Grass Knot, and Focus Blast is the only special set that 2HKOs everything in UU. Focus Blast is needed for both Umbreon and Snorlax, getting guaranteed 2HKOes with SR up. Also why would anyone use Thunder when Grass Knot already takes care of Water-types while covering Swampert and Rhyperior too, two Pokemon that Thunder does nothing against?

Unlike Grass Knot, Thunder hits the stray handful of Flying-types available to UU, while also doing some serious damage to Slowbro and Slowking, both of which are too light for a full Base Power Grass Knot. Alongside Glaciate, it also creates a psuedo BoltBeam combination, but in a way, I guess it would seem rather useless. Personally, I think it's a little bit of preference and what your team needs checks too.

 

[Aecor]

Thunder hits bulky waters, such as Slowbro, harder than Grass Knot if memory serves me right. For the most part, Blue Flare hits Dark Types about as hard (adjusted for Acc) as Focus Blast. And sure, 2HK the entire tier yay. But specs Chandelure can do that. Just because something can do something doesn't mean it will. People over prepare for the physical set which is why Victini is deemed as broken. If people were to have a Mon that can counter both the Special and Physical set, things would be better. For example, you don't see people preparing for SD Heracross anymore, doesn't mean it's broken af. Slap a Snorlax or Umbreon on your team and you're golden.

 

[KM]

I personally prefer running U-turn or V-create far over Thunder or Focus Blast, for that matter, as I find it easier to deal with the like 3 things that wall it without those moves with the rest of my team than dedicate an entire moveslot to an inaccurate move for hitting a couple of pokes.

That said, I think it's worth comparing special victini to special LO shaymin, as I think it's probably the closest comparison to draw and it also helps prove my point so heh.

Going to preface this by saying Victini is really good, I use it all the time, but I don't think it should be banned. (Just to get that out of the way).

Okay so... the reason I think shaymin and victini are similar are because of the following.

-Base 100 stats
-Strong special signature move with beneficial side effect
-Great neutral coverage

The differences, however, are pretty skewed in favour of Shaymin (imo).

Shaymin:
- Natural Cure, which makes status a lot less crippling, whereas Victini gets Victory Star to boost its inaccurate moves. It's worth noting that all of shaymin's coverage moves are either 100% accurate (hidden powers, earth power, psychic) or near 100% accurate (air slash).
- Seed Flare's 40% SpD drop lets it have the potential to break through and 2HKO dedicated special walls like Umbreon or Snorlax. In contrast, Blue Flare's burn chance is helpful, but situational at best.
- Reliable recovery in the form of Natural Cure rest or Synthesis (this is huge. Victini's major drawback is that it has very little sustain/staying power when hazards are on the field or it has taken prior damage.
- 5 weaknesses, but none are too crippling other than fire
- Grounded, neutral v Stealth Rocks
- Access to Healing Wish
Victini:
- Access to arguably better coverage moves, although they are less accurate even with Victory Star.
- Slightly stronger signature move.
- Access to U-turn
- Weak to Pursuit/Sucker Punch, 4 weaknesses
- Grounded, x2 weak to Stealth Rocks


Although this comparison obviously isn't complete, nor does it show that one is much better than the other, I'm merely trying to show that special victini, and in a way every other type of Victini as well, isn't necessarily leaps and bounds above other things in UU that perform its role, and it may be even worse. The only thing that separates victini is finding out what set it has to properly wall it - Shaymin can't as effectively run a physical set, for example. However, I believe that its disadvantages outweigh this surprise factor.

 

[pokemonisfun]

i really cant read these posts completely because they are so long my reading skills are poor and the forums look like poop but let me contribute a little still!!!

i wish you didnt ban froslass that makes me sad since its gone on po too now :cccc

ok you guys are talking about victini huh?? best victini sets are tr sets yeah they always pwn me in all the wrong places its really bad to be honest. they are usually slower than 5/6 of an offensive team after one speed drop and being able to spam v-create is really really bad for me. also victini is still quite bulky after a single drop if its at full health since it can invest in hp or defenses if it wants because it only needs one stat (attack). so just wanted to point out no victini discussion is complete without tr victini first!!!

ps the ones i see use charcoal i think i never asked but i just have to assume that which makes their v-create really much stronger it does for instance enough to 2hko gligar wow is that weird or what?

 

[Mazz]

i really cant read these posts completely because they are so long my reading skills are poor and the forums look like poop but let me contribute a little still!!!

i wish you didnt ban froslass that makes me sad since its gone on po too now :cccc

ok you guys are talking about victini huh?? best victini sets are tr sets yeah they always pwn me in all the wrong places its really bad to be honest. they are usually slower than 5/6 of an offensive team after one speed drop and being able to spam v-create is really really bad for me. also victini is still quite bulky after a single drop if its at full health since it can invest in hp or defenses if it wants because it only needs one stat (attack). so just wanted to point out no victini discussion is complete without tr victini first!!!

ps the ones i see use charcoal i think i never asked but i just have to assume that which makes their v-create really much stronger it does for instance enough to 2hko gligar wow is that weird or what?

Trick Room Victini is really terrible in my opinion. With Cofagrigus, Slowbro, Swampert, and Rhyperior seeing the usage they are, it's almost begging for these Pokemon to come out and OHKO with their moves. There's still a lot of Pokemon in the UU tier that "outspeed" a -1 Victini while under Trick Room, many of which either resist V-Create or can tank one and OHKO back.

Special LO Victini, who has the potential to 2HKO the entire tier, or even mixed Victini, who accomplishes much in the same, I would argue to be its best sets.

 

[Stagnant]

It has been forever since I've posted in UU sub-forum but the fact that Froslass was banned is absurd.

Taunt
Rock Blast
Xatu (Volt Switch/U-Turn Leads)
Faster Pokemon (with and without Taunt)
Sableye
Rapid Spin (Blastoise, Hitmontop)

You are banned a Pokemon because it's annoying not because it was broken. These suspect tests are such a joke.

 

[Moose V]

It has been forever since I've posted in UU sub-forum but the fact that Froslass was banned is absurd.

Taunt
Rock Blast
Xatu (Volt Switch/U-Turn Leads)
Faster Pokemon (with and without Taunt)
Sableye
Rapid Spin (Blastoise, Hitmontop)

You are banned a Pokemon because it's annoying not because it was broken. These suspect tests are such a joke.

Taunt=only 2 real taunters that are faster than lass are azelf and sableye
Rock Blast=Only found on 1 poke in uu, rhyperior and rock blast isn't even a guaranteed ko + misses. Rhyperior is also weak to ice.
Xatu: Ice Beam. Volt-turn, a team would need 2 scarfers just to limit lass to 1 spike.
Faster pokemon: too long an explanation for this, look at my post
Sableye: fits in with taunt
Rapid Spin: Froslass is a ghost type and is also frequently paired with other ghost types.

Froslass is not merely annoying, but potentially incredibly difficult to handle lest you have something on your team specifically for Lass. When you have to run a poke specifically to shut down a threat like this, it's definitely ban worthy. The people who voted for froslass's removal obviously thought about it more than "it's annoying" and although it wasn't completely ruining the metagame, it was just a little too good.

 

[Aecor]

Whoever said TR Victini is the best set needs to get his head out of his ass. It has surprise value, but you're basically using the Physical set with bulk. Yeah, fick that. The Special/Mixed set is where Victini gets the complaints. And as for Froslass being banned as a joke, that guy needs to get his head out of his ass too. Froslass beats almost every taunter. Crobat and Azelf can be dealt with by Super Effective STABs. Also, Cursed Body can usually disable the one good move to hit. Froslass is outspeed by nothing in terms of what it does. You need a scarfer + base 111+ to being able to prevent more than 1 hazard. The spinners sucking big cack in UU doesn't help either. If you don't like Froslass being banned, go bitch about it somewhere else and go play OU instead of being a scrub.

 

[Mazz]

It has been forever since I've posted in UU sub-forum but the fact that Froslass was banned is absurd.

Taunt
Rock Blast
Xatu (Volt Switch/U-Turn Leads)
Faster Pokemon (with and without Taunt)
Sableye
Rapid Spin (Blastoise, Hitmontop)

You are banned a Pokemon because it's annoying not because it was broken. These suspect tests are such a joke.

While I'll agree the ban was unnecessary (albeit, I'm apathetic to it being gone), here's the issues with the arguments you raise:

Taunt is not a reliable way to shut Froslass down, as there's a staggering sum of five Pokemon fast enough to Taunt opposing Froslass, three of which require Prankster in order to do so. I'll throw Sableye into this category for the sake of an easier discussion too, since it is one of those Pokemon. However, Crobat, Tornadus, Azelf, and Whimsicott (four of the five Pokemon capable of Taunting Froslass), are all weak to either Ice Beam or Shadow Ball. Seeing these Pokemon against said Froslass doesn't require a ton of prediction; just use the corresponding attack against said Pokemon, as they're most likely to Taunt anyways. On the chance that said Pokemon faints to either Ice Beam or Shadow Ball, you've just lost your "stop" to Froslass, which will then allow it to come back out later or wait the two turns, then lay hazards. Rock Blast is a safe method of bringing Froslass down. However, Ciniccino, Rhyperior, and Crustle are the only true viable users, and two of which are outsped by Froslass, meaning there's still a layer of Spikes being set down. Fun fact, but neither Rhyperior of Crustle are guaranteed to OHKO Froslass, as Rock Blast very rarely exceeds 3 hits, and Rhyperior only does in the neighborhood of 95% and above. There's still that chance that Froslass can live the three hits and get a second layer down. Crustle's weaker than Rhyperior, so it can be naturally assumed that 3 Rock Blast hits will do even less damage. Secondly, no intelligent user will keep their Froslass out against either a Rhyperior or a Crustle, since there is still that threat of being OHKOed. Cinccino, thanks to Skill Link, was capable of OHKOing Froslass with Rock Blast, provided it carried either a Life Orb or Choice Band. King's Rock variants hit from 85% and above. So one of three Pokemon viably capable of using Rock Blast were able to stop Froslass. Xatu falls into the same issue that most Taunt users did, being that its weak to both Ice Beam and Shadow Ball, and has to take a shitton of damage before getting either the U-turn away. While it did allow for the emergence of a new check, typically a Scarf Pokemon, to come out and outspeed and OHKO Froslass, the same thing seen against Rhyperior and Crustle still happened. Froslass switched out. So no, you can't really consider Xatu anything close to a stop to Froslass, since holding a weakness to both STABs and fleeing from the matchup should not and is not considered "stopping" a threat. I touched on the faster Pokemon in my comments on Xatu being a stop to Froslass, and the same still applies here. Froslass is in no way of being unable to switch, bring in something to better take the hit, and come out later to do what it needs to do. Froslass was never used without proper team support, rendering this argument useless. Rapid Spin is a laudable response, honestly. Have you seen the spinners in this tier? They're garbage. Not only was Froslass capable of laying hazards, but it can also spinblock them, as remember, it's also a dual Ghost-type. It also wasn't common practice to run a scondary Ghost, be it Cofagrigus, Sableye, or Chandelure, alongside Froslass in the event Froslass either faints, or the opposing Spinner ran Foresight. None of the Spinners available to UU are capable of beating opposing Spinblockers, and are actually in turn, beaten by said Spinblockers. With Rapid Spin being so predictable and momentum-killing, you were better off not running it, and just dealing with the hazards damage.

I mentioned this in my last "you're right, but wrong at the same time" post regarding why Froslass was banned, but Froslass, while it wasn't a broken threat, was comparable to a canker. It was an uglier aspect of UU, and was dealt with accordingly by those who bothered to make voting requirements and put its fate in their hands. Arguing this, especially post-ban, is a moot point and you won't get far with it. So, take that into mind, and just move on to what the tier is now. Sorry, but bitching and complaining that the way the community responded to Froslass being suspected will not bring it back. Had you felt Froslass wasn't ban-worthy, maybe acquiring voting reqs and voting towards keeping it in UU should have made your list of things to do.

I'm getting real fed up with seeing people complain about Froslass' dismissal, even if it's only been a few days after it's banning. Get over it, it's not coming back. Move on.

 

[ryan]

Saying Rapid Spin lets you handle Froslass is a joke for so many reasons. I don't follow UU much at all, but here's what I know from personal experiences against it and from common sense. First off, spinners in UU are garbage. The only way that Hitmontop and Blastoise can possibly spin against Froslass is with Foresight, and that even fails to take into account that Froslass/Cofag isn't an unusual core. In fact, it's a really good strategy. Hitmontop and Blastoise are both pretty garbage Pokemon from my experiences playing with them as well. They're both slow and hold little to no offensive presence, which means that while you're trying to pull off a Rapid Spin, you're also giving up all of the momentum on your side.

Taunt users aren't going to do a lot to Froslass either when it had one of the fastest Taunts in UU. Sableye is the only exception I can personally think of (though I might be missing something), and while it's definitely a good Pokemon, it doesn't fit onto every team archetype by any means. On top of that, if you're being forced to run Sableye to beat Froslass, it's overcentralizing.

Xatu is a great check when its weak to Ice and Ghost. Rock Blast is a very similar case.

Again, I don't play UU that often, so I don't have a whole lot of specific examples here. But the arguments brought up in that post are not convincing me at all.

 

[Explorer]

With Froslass now BL, I can see Accelgor usage becoming even more popular. People are used to having a fast spiker to fall back on, and Accelgor fits that bill to a "t". It also has access to a much higher Speed stat, meaning it can taunt literally everything bar Tornadus and Sableye. Much like Froslass, Accelgor is nearly guaranteed two layers, and if it runs Final Gambit, can actually beat out opposing Spinners. I imagine that Qwilfish and Roserade will see spikes in their usage (see what I did there?), as the community as a whole is more used to seeing them, but Accelgor will definitely become a Pokemon to watch out for. This also harms the usage of Pokemon like Cinccino and Beat Up Weavile in a way, albeit more Beat Up Weavile than Ciniccino, as they were used primarily to shut down Froslass.

Personally, I loathe hazards. They're a pain in the ass, and with the lack of decent Spinners, they're an even bigger pain. I won't miss Froslass, but I'm not elated that it's gone. Personally, I never used it, but from what I've heard, it was a rather favourable Pokemon. Moving forward, how does the rest of the UU community feel about Froslass leaving?

I took your advice and built a team with Accelgor over Froslass. It does a fairly good job of setting up Spikes, and I love Final Gambit. One particular battle I led with Accelgor and my opponent led with Roserade. I realized I didn't really need the Spikes in that battle and I'd rather the opponent rather not set up, so I just used Final Gambit from turn 1, set the game to 5-5, and was in an advantageous position. With that in mind I partnered Accelgor with physically defensive SR Krookodile so I could still run a hazard.

Here are three replays I kept during the early testing phase of this team.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-45824869
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-45560533
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-45559616

 

[pokemonisfun]

fine tr tini isnt the best but its still a threat you know especially since it catches offensive checks off guard like a flygon had better be at above 60% health or it might die and scarfmienshao is notgoing to be able to beat victini if tr is up at all. and tr tini is the only tini that can sweep an offensive team to be honest right unless you are using some strange sets.

talking about froslass now has to be the most pointless thing ever except...playing against liepard!!!

seriously the assist shuffle set is so messed up its not even funny. can we talk about banning liepard here please!! (btw the only reason i don't lose to it automatically is because i have trusty ambipom's fake out) fake out extremespeed not having any hazards and magic guard users are the only ways i think it can be beat. anyone else know how to deal with it?