np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

[pokemonisfun]

The P in PM stands for private, even if what they say is nasty its very mean to turn the P into public, kind of on the same level of time stalling mhmmm.

On Victini anyways it really should not be compared to Specs Chandelure because both of them get around their counters. Chandelure has to awkwardly locks itself into HP Fighting to have a chance to beat it's counter which can still tank two hits if its very specially defensive and Rest it off and then go to something to abuse the awkwardness of HP Fighting. Victini just whacks Rhyperior and Swampert with a clean OHKO while still having complete freedom of movement not to mention (actually I am mentioning it aren't I?) Victini gets an OHKO while Chandelure will never get an OHKO without a critical hit giving more time for the Snorlax user to react than. A fairer comparison would be something like giving Chandelure Close Combat and an extra 70 or so Attack base points so it could easily maul Snorlax in one hit without locking itself into a move. At that point Chandelure might really be broken as is Victini now (actually Chandelure is already broken imo but whatever).

SR seems very limiting for Victini but anti SR support is already common in UU because the top UU Pokemon like Zapdos and Victini and Weavile are all weak to SR too so Xatu and Blastoise are almost obnoxiously common. So if you are truly relying on SR you not only need SR but you need anti anti SR support (aka a Ghost or something to kill Xatu) which is really making me think you are beginning to take up too many slots to beat Victini.

What has not been discussed though is beyond the question of whether Victini is broken is what the effects of the ban would bring in terms of diversity; a diverse tier is always a better tier right? So would UU be more or less diverse after the ban is a question that really needs to be at least attempted to be answered. (if this is completely against smogon tiering policy fine ignore this last bit but really, whether or not something is broken will always be subjective because the criteria will always be subjective even if objectively tested (aka anything with no counters is broken so you ban everything with no counters but the rule itself of "anything counterless is broken" is subjective) so you might as well stick in some more criteria, diversity).

 

[Monte Cristo]

The point you are making here is that Victini supports other offensive sweepers way too well, but isn't that the point of using a wall breaker in the first place
The point of a wall breaker is to remove walls that can be threats or nuisances to your TEAM not to your sweeper, also Victini can support ANY sweeper it wants while other sweeper supporters like mienshao are fairly limited to what they can support.

or teams where the offensive pokemon are able to support each other to allow the others to sweep? What is so bad about there being a good mixed wall breaker in the tier?
Victini isn't just a good "mixed wall breaker" it's a good physical wall breaker, good special wallbreaker, good mixed wall breaker, good physical scarfer and special scarfer, good choice user, to say the least all of those sets also can support a number of different sweepers depending on the set, and the set depends on your sweeper, so most of the time, it does work extremely well as a crazy good sweeper supporter

I'm sure Victini is not the only pokemon capable of doing this in UU, it's just that it is an easy option to pick because people have chosen to develop its metagame as such instead of another pokemon. For example, Mienshao can run a very effective mixed set with HP Ice, Grass Knot, Hi Jump Kick, and either Fake Out, U-Turn, or Stone Edge, has much greater staying power than Victini due to Regenerator,
Mienshao may be great, but not only is it only a meh wall breaker(imo) but it's very frail Victini even after a drop isn't as frail (252+ SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 234-276 (68.62 - 80.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - TINI vs 252+ SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 235-277 (86.71 - 102.21%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO- shao) Not only that but stripping away half your health just for missing, a ghost switching in or simply getting protected against is very unappealing as STAB, especially when shao is more fragile than glass itself, not only that but mienshao isn't a quarter as versitile, and cannot support multitudes of sweepers like victini can

and is also faster than it. Now I'm not saying this is broken or anything, I'm just saying this can act as a wall breaking set that can pave way for different sweepers than Victini.
You just proved that you didn't listen to my argument whatsover, Victini isn't a sweeper at all,(other than gimmik TR) it's a sweeper supporter

Because one of the biggest counters to Mienshao is arguably Cofagrigus, Houndoom could be a great partner for it since it can potentially get a free nasty plot on Cofagrigus.
Yes, but does houndoom handle OTR cofag? Let alone support every single sweeper in the tier? Is it as versitile as victini? Does it have the momentum grabing capabillities of U-turn? etc. THese are questions you REALLY need to ask yourself before comparing Victini to something

This might not be a perfect example, but this sounds similar to using Victini with Raikou in the situation you described above since the two offensive pokemon on your team are supporting each other. I don't think this is broken or too good by any means.
I'm not screaming ban on Vic + Raikou, that would just be stupid, The Vic + Kou thing was merely an example of what victini does to teams that are even highly prepared for sweepers, not only that, but it punishes specialized counters very well, And they aren't 2 pokemon that support each other, Victini just causes "the victini effect" and leaves and lets raikou do the work from there, raikou does nto support victini whatsover aside from some possible offensive synergy you could form

Arguments in bold, like always.

 

[Ace Emerald]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-32745090

This is a replay of me taking down a victini with an (almost) mono-poison team. I obviously have no perfect counters to Victini on the team, Qwilfish being close but still getting hurt quite a bit by Bolt Strike/Zen Headbutt. However, by playing my cards right with immunity and hazards, I was able to take down Victini to a point where Skuntank could finish it off with Sucker Punch. I obviously am very skilled got pretty lucky to have hit all of the predictions right, but it's just something you can figure out after playing against Victini for a while, and playing with it.

I personally don't think this is conclusive proof of anything for two major reasons: 1) the player you faced was pretty terrible, I mean he used Fake out Mienshao and his moves were transparent. Victini (despite its dex entry) doesn't guarantee victory and it isn't invisible. The skill gap was so wide I'd be shocked if you lost, this doesn't prove anything. 2) the moves you made could have landed you in huge trouble if you mispredicted. First off, like I said, his moves were transparent one you knew the set. But look at your first encounter with Vic vs Qwilfish, you went to Nidoqueen predicting a Bolt Strike. What if he was Special LO with Psychic? That set tears through your team from the looks of it, only fearing mindgames with Skuntank. Which brings me to a smaller point on the subject: you cannot call Sucker Punch/Pursuit mindgames a check or a counter. Yeah it works, 50% of the time. Its a coinflip, not reliable and not an answer. Plus switching out of Pursuit didn't even OHKO from Skuntank lol

I'd also like to touch on the notion that I've continued to see that judges Victini based on how much damage it deals or how many pokes it kills. In my eyes, this isn't a great way to judge a pokemon and its relative brokenness. Yes, Victini can V-Create your physical wall for 40% and then just switch out, but you have to take into account that when you switch out, your opponent gets a free turn and gets to deal a lot of damage to you, status an important wall, set up hazards, spin, or whatever. What happens with "nuke" pokes like Victini often is that yes, they do end up being the MVP of most matches and getting you all the kills, but that doesn't mean they didn't use up turns or valuable team support doing it. I think the most absurd but parallel example to compare it to would be Retaliate Slaking. Yes, the power of banded or scarfed Retaliate Slaking is immense, but you have to bring it in after something dies, and you need to bring something else in to take the hit after you've nuked something. Due to the fact that Victini does have to be switching out a lot to be effective and nuke the most things, and because it is weak to priority and hazards, that stuff can wrack up pretty quickly.

The problem is that we're not banning Vic for nuking, cause you're right that that isn't really damning. We want to ban it because you switch in your physical wall, take more like 20% from V-Create, then get nailed by Grass Knot when you try to Stealth Rocks.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Sorry I said in a post that got deleted that I retracted that statement and said it wasn't the best but still a set to think about especially as its the only set that can do a sweep in the traditional sense at least (boost up so you're fast and strong and then attack until there's nothing left to attack).

 

[Ace Emerald]

If I have to delete more posts I will infract, I probably should have infracted already but I'm in a good mood so I'll give this last warning.

@Aecor

I'll address your repeated point "You can't assume someone playing against Vic will always mispredict." The point is you can't assume that they'll always predict correctly either and that's the problem. When you have players of equal skill, Vic can turn the game into a coin toss as you guess what set and move they're selecting, and mis-guessing one could be disastrous.

 

[Explorer]

Good point. Assume the following scenario:

You have a healthy Raikou in the sidelines and a healthy Machamp active. Your opponent has a healthy Umbreon and a healthy Milotic who has been burned earlier in the battle. There are no hazards on either side.

Your opponent, fearing that Machamp will KO Umbreon with Dynamicpunch, brings in Milotic to absorb the blow so Umbreon can be saved to wall Raikou later. You double-switch right into Raikou. Miltoic, being unable to do anything to Raikou, switches back to Umbreon as you set up a Substitute, then Calm Mind as it breaks the substitute with Foul Play, then launch a +1 Thunderbolt at its face, possibly boosted by Life Orb.

It won't stay in unless it's the last Pokemon or the opponent over predicts, but it can allow you to gain a big advantage like shown here.

 

[Aecor]

If I have to delete more posts I will infract, I probably should have infracted already but I'm in a good mood so I'll give this last warning.

@Aecor

I'll address your repeated point "You can't assume someone playing against Vic will always mispredict." The point is you can't assume that they'll always predict correctly either and that's the problem. When you have players of equal skill, Vic can turn the game into a coin toss as you guess what set and move they're selecting, and mis-guessing one could be disastrous.

Ace, did you even watch the replay? If prediction works "both ways," then we cannot argue under the basis that Victini should rely on what moves it attacks with, but rather what moves are in its arsenal (Like 4MSS). Victini that is mixed is helpless against Snorlax. Raikou would like Snorlax gone. If Victini could single handedly remove Snorlax, Umbreon, Rhyperior, and Swampert in one set, then I could see Victini getting banned. The problem with Victini is that it must choose specific counters that it wants to remove. Raikou isn't gonna be doing any sweeping if fatass Snorlax is straight chilling at like 60%.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Ace, did you even watch the replay? If prediction works "both ways," then we cannot argue under the basis that Victini should rely on what moves it attacks with, but rather what moves are in its arsenal (Like 4MSS). Victini that is mixed is helpless against Snorlax. Raikou would like Snorlax gone. If Victini could single handedly remove Snorlax, Umbreon, Rhyperior, and Swampert in one set, then I could see Victini getting banned. The problem with Victini is that it must choose specific counters that it wants to remove. Raikou isn't gonna be doing any sweeping if fatass Snorlax is straight chilling at like 60%.

252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Snorlax: 226-266 (43.12 - 50.76%) -- 61.33% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock + 252 Atk Life Orb Victini U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 117-139 (22.32 - 26.52%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

That means victini will do 72% to the opposing lax on average without even having to risk a double vcreate plus, There is a set that can handle all those pokemon at once: It's called specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Victini Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 196-232 (49.74 - 58.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Victini Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 234-276 (44.65 - 52.67%) -- 86.72% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock OR 252 SpA Choice Specs Victini Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 232-274 (44.27 - 52.29%) -- 85.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 561-660 (129.56 - 152.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 476-564 (118.7 - 140.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Specs is clearly not unviable, you can honestly call it that and "invalidate it" but that's what most players did to regular special victini when it first got blue flare, and look where we are with special tini now.
Specs Tini is clearly viable and can support numerous physical and special walls, so to invalidate it because of uncommon-ness would just be pure ignorance.

 

[KM]

I personally don't think this is conclusive proof of anything for two major reasons: 1) the player you faced was pretty terrible, I mean he used Fake out Mienshao and his moves were transparent. Victini (despite its dex entry) doesn't guarantee victory and it isn't invisible. The skill gap was so wide I'd be shocked if you lost, this doesn't prove anything. 2) the moves you made could have landed you in huge trouble if you mispredicted. First off, like I said, his moves were transparent one you knew the set. But look at your first encounter with Vic vs Qwilfish, you went to Nidoqueen predicting a Bolt Strike. What if he was Special LO with Psychic? That set tears through your team from the looks of it, only fearing mindgames with Skuntank. Which brings me to a smaller point on the subject: you cannot call Sucker Punch/Pursuit mindgames a check or a counter. Yeah it works, 50% of the time. Its a coinflip, not reliable and not an answer. Plus switching out of Pursuit didn't even OHKO from Skuntank lol



The problem is that we're not banning Vic for nuking, cause you're right that that isn't really damning. We want to ban it because you switch in your physical wall, take more like 20% from V-Create, then get nailed by Grass Knot when you try to Stealth Rocks.

Yeah, I'm not saying its the best replay lol (and thanks for the compliment ;) ), I was merely giving an admittedly extreme example of how you can deal with Victini sometimes. It was more to highlight the problem with immunities than to hoot my own predicting horn, so to speak. And I knew he wasn't Special LO with Psychic because like you, I gauged his skill and I knew he was using a cookie-cutter set. Higher on the ladder against someone like you, I would never have switched in Nidoqueen.

And re: the whole Sucker Punch/Pursuit thing, it's obviously not an 100% counter. The Skuntank not OHKOing is more of a matter of pls never use Skuntank in UU its so bad please just no I was forced to than an accurate representation of how good dark moves are against it. I definitely agree that a Dark weakness isn't quite as big of a deal as some people are hyping it up to be, though. That said, it does create offensive pressure against the opponent, which is definitely something.

Finally, I do have a bit of a problem with the whole "not banning Vic for nuking, banning for versatility" thing. For example, the hypothetical that you used of taking a V-Create and then eating a Grass Knot. I assume you're talking about Swampert or Rhyperior. For the sake of simplicity, lets say Rhyperior. If I saw Life Orb recoil on a Rhyperior after taking a V-Create I would be immediately wary of a mixed set and would switch out. The only way that your hypothetical works is if Victini is neither Life Orbed, nor choiced, White Herb, or Lefties (assuming not at 100%). The only "viable" items left would be Expert belt or Charcoal/Flame Plate, which account for around 11% of all Victini's. It's in this that I have a beef with this argument.

If you're going to run a truly mixed tini (which a charcoal/ebelt set has to be in order to be remotely viable), you have a couple of distinct problems. The most jarring of them is the immediate power and speed drop from losing a choiced item combined with having to share EVs over three stats. In order to maintain a good speed tier you should probably keep full jolly investment in speed, or you run the risk of losing to a bunch more pokes. You now have 252 EVs to share over Atk and SpA, the other 4 going into SpD to stop a download boost. If you split the EVs evenly, you get a moderately powerful V-Create and some decent special moves. And that V-Create + Grass Knot hypothetical we were running barely manages to 100% OHKO Swampert or Rhyperior, if they even fall for it (or are even on the opponent's team in the first place) (In fact, fully specially defensive Rhyperior [not the 16+ atk set lots of people use] can actually survive a V-Create + Grass knot from a 126/126 EVd Charcoal Victini.)

The second and equally as prescient problem with running a true mixtini like everyone raves about is that you have a massive case of 4MSS.

1. V-Create is practically necessary to be a mixed set, so that's a given.
2. Grass Knot is necessary if you want a reliable way to get through Swampert and Rhyperior.
3. Without Thunder/Thunderbolt/Bolt Strike you get walled by lighter waters.
4. Without Focus Blast, you get completely walled by Houndoom and slaughtered by Snorlax.
5. If you're using charcoal, you're practically forced to use Blue Flare as well to maximize the effectiveness of the item.
6. Without U-turn, you have no way of gaining momentum and are screwed against certain pokes if you lack the proper coverage.
7. Psychic/Psyshock/Zen Headbutt make Arcanine more easy to deal with.

There are plenty of more moves that Victini would love to run as well - Glaciate, Quick Attack and more, but it really just doesn't have the space. When you're forced to choose only four of these moves for a mixed set (and V-Create and Grass Knot are practically givens), and you lose out on speed and power by relying on Expert Belt or Charcoal (or if you do use life orb, immediately revealing that you're mixed/special), then yes. You can surprise some of the counters some of the time by sometimes OHKOing them with V-Create and Grass Knot. But, there is absolutely no way with these mixed sets to cover even close to all of your bases, which makes this type of Victini look a hell of a lot better on paper than it is in practice.

 

[Moose V]

I'd just like to point out a few calcs with the standard expert belt mixed victini: (note I'm pretending like neither player is making any sort of prediction)
V-create vs. max HP, max SpD Rhyperior: 24% average
Grass knot vs. max HP, max SpD Rhyperior: 80/81% average

Thus w/ lefties, rhyperior switching in can take (most of the time) a v-create then grass knot and ohko back w/ eq. Granted this rhyperior has careful nature but IMO that's better than adamant on Rhyp if not for just this alone.

Same Victini vs. Defensive Slowbro:
V-create: 23% average
Grass knot: 44% average
Thus, I'd say slowbro is a pretty nice switch-in to most victinis.

again, same victini vs. shittoise (blastoise)
V-create: 26% average
Grass Knot: 40% average
Factoring in lefties, Victini, the vast majority of the time, can't even 3HKO one of the weakest walls in the tier.

The point I'm trying to make is that, even with grass knot, victini can still be switched into. Obviously, Victini can put a real dent in a wall w/ grass knot but can't 2HKO the three above (and many more) w/ v-create/grass knot and doesn't appreciate staying in to take an eq/scald. I have more to say about this but I gotta go so this is it for now.

 

[Ace Emerald]

Ace, did you even watch the replay? If prediction works "both ways," then we cannot argue under the basis that Victini should rely on what moves it attacks with, but rather what moves are in its arsenal (Like 4MSS). Victini that is mixed is helpless against Snorlax. Raikou would like Snorlax gone. If Victini could single handedly remove Snorlax, Umbreon, Rhyperior, and Swampert in one set, then I could see Victini getting banned. The problem with Victini is that it must choose specific counters that it wants to remove. Raikou isn't gonna be doing any sweeping if fatass Snorlax is straight chilling at like 60%.

I wouldn't call losing 1 wall (Snorlax) being forced to chose. Besides its not really after 1 switch in to Victini's V-create and Stealth Rocks, any Raikou, even Sub CM can blow through offensive Snorlax. So you know how I got that:

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Thick Fat Snorlax: 160-190 (34.7 - 41.21%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(imo max attack mixed vic is the best for lure, go expert belt and spam V-create, bluffs scarf and fucks over all walls)

Assuming a low-ish roll (38%) and SR, that brings it to 50%

+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 165-195 (35.79 - 42.29%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Damage output is nearly identical. Another switch into Rocks, another 50% and its gone. Sure offensive lax can pursuit Vic out, but Vic has done its job, Lax can't check Raikou, and it actually just gave Raikou a set up oppurtunity (CB non STAB Pursuit lol).

PS: 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also @I080I with SR negating 1 turn of leafties, 20% + 80% = 100% for Rhyperior lol

 

[pokemonisfun]

I'd just like to point out a few calcs with the standard expert belt mixed victini: (note I'm pretending like neither player is making any sort of prediction)
V-create vs. max HP, max SpD Rhyperior: 24% average
Grass knot vs. max HP, max SpD Rhyperior: 80/81% average

Thus w/ lefties, rhyperior switching in can take (most of the time) a v-create then grass knot and ohko back w/ eq. Granted this rhyperior has careful nature but IMO that's better than adamant on Rhyp if not for just this alone.

Same Victini vs. Defensive Slowbro:
V-create: 23% average
Grass knot: 44% average
Thus, I'd say slowbro is a pretty nice switch-in to most victinis.

again, same victini vs. shittoise (blastoise)
V-create: 26% average
Grass Knot: 40% average
Factoring in lefties, Victini, the vast majority of the time, can't even 3HKO one of the weakest walls in the tier.

The point I'm trying to make is that, even with grass knot, victini can still be switched into. Obviously, Victini can put a real dent in a wall w/ grass knot but can't 2HKO the three above (and many more) w/ v-create/grass knot and doesn't appreciate staying in to take an eq/scald. I have more to say about this but I gotta go so this is it for now.

First I would argue you are losing way too much power and stat points in general if you are using careful Rhyperior. You always get the most stat points for giving your highest base point stat the nature boost and the lack of attack is going to be really noticeable as in things like Zapdos have a much stronger chance to actually kind of wall you.

Second you need to do more calcs before posting that kind of data because you will mislead people even if its by accident. Don't just go by what you think you remember from the last time you have seen a Rhyperior and not say that explicitly and calc for all EB sets because if i am correct there is no such thing as standard eb sets.

252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 407-479 (93.77 - 110.36%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

That is a 100% chance to OHKO with SR. There is no standard EB set for Victini so we can't really know what you're talking about right? As in there is no on site EB set.

0 SpA Expert Belt Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 320-378 (73.73 - 87.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 97-115 (22.35 - 26.49%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

You're right about 24% average but please tell me how in any case the Rhyperior switching in is going to survive a GK. Not to mention you are going as far to say careful Rhyperior is a good counter when in general its going to be taking like 95%+ damage, you can forget about setting up SR if you haven't already unless they have a choiced electric or a super slow guy to set up on. Even then its unlikely with smart play.

252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise: 168-199 (46.4 - 54.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Blastoise is not a reliable switch in if Victini just invests in special attack. That does not particularly make its physical V-Create very weak if you choose to stick with that because...

4 Atk Victini V-create vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 234-276 (65.91 - 77.74%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Of course you would be using Psychic but just to demonstrate a relatively bulky offensive Pokemon will be taking massive amounts of damage from an uninvested V-Create.

252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 211-250 (53.68 - 63.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile Slowbro cannot OHKO back unless Victini has both used V-create and switched into SR.

In any case I prefer to invest much more in Spa with EB sets because the only reason I use V-create is to pretend to be a choice set not for its large bp anymore.

Also with Victini there are sort of "perfect counters" to the most common sets like Slowbro and Rhyperior being almost perfect counters to Scarf sets. It is very very hard to resist switching them in especially if you see a Victini staring down your for instance Roserade. It is very very very easy to make predictions in this case in my opinion when the Victini user has all the pressure and you are stuck switching around trying to defend the position with more than likely no immediate counter play.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

First I would argue you are losing way too much power and stat points in general if you are using careful Rhyperior. You always get the most stat points for giving your highest base point stat the nature boost and the lack of attack is going to be really noticeable as in things like Zapdos have a much stronger chance to actually kind of wall you.

Second you need to do more calcs before posting that kind of data because you will mislead people even if its by accident. Don't just go by what you think you remember from the last time you have seen a Rhyperior and not say that explicitly and calc for all EB sets because if i am correct there is no such thing as standard eb sets.

252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 407-479 (93.77 - 110.36%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

That is a 100% chance to OHKO with SR. There is no standard EB set for Victini so we can't really know what you're talking about right? As in there is no on site EB set.

0 SpA Expert Belt Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 320-378 (73.73 - 87.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 97-115 (22.35 - 26.49%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

You're right about 24% average but please tell me how in any case the Rhyperior switching in is going to survive a GK. Not to mention you are going as far to say careful Rhyperior is a good counter when in general its going to be taking like 95%+ damage, you can forget about setting up SR if you haven't already unless they have a choiced electric or a super slow guy to set up on. Even then its unlikely with smart play.

252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise: 168-199 (46.4 - 54.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Blastoise is not a reliable switch in if Victini just invests in special attack. That does not particularly make its physical V-Create very weak if you choose to stick with that because...

4 Atk Victini V-create vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 234-276 (65.91 - 77.74%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Of course you would be using Psychic but just to demonstrate a relatively bulky offensive Pokemon will be taking massive amounts of damage from an uninvested V-Create.

252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 211-250 (53.68 - 63.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile Slowbro cannot OHKO back unless Victini has both used V-create and switched into SR.

In any case I prefer to invest much more in Spa with EB sets because the only reason I use V-create is to pretend to be a choice set not for its large bp anymore.

Also with Victini there are sort of "perfect counters" to the most common sets like Slowbro and Rhyperior being almost perfect counters to Scarf sets. It is very very hard to resist switching them in especially if you see a Victini staring down your for instance Roserade. It is very very very easy to make predictions in this case in my opinion when the Victini user has all the pressure and you are stuck switching around trying to defend the position with more than likely no immediate counter play.

Not gonna play into arguing about Victini here, but I will say that you missed the point of what he was going for...Careful Rhyperior is actually somewhat uncommon these days for this reason. And he most likely wanted to emphasize on Careful nature as a "Worst-Case Scenario" here while theorymoning, since Rhyperior would be more likely to live a Grass Knot. He wants to emphasize how Victini can be beaten even when it carries the appropriate coverage move to deal with its main checks, not advocate some new hipster set to use. And more than likely, his perception of an Expert Belt set probably runs 252 Atk and 4 SpA, because looking at the calc, that exact spread yields the average damage output he mentioned...

I mean you can run SpA on an Expert Belt set if you want but you may as well be running something else due to a lower BP V-Create that won't hammer much if it isn't Super Effective...I think the point he's just trying to make is that a more standard Victini can still be generally checked, yo.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Not gonna play into arguing about Victini here, but I will say that you missed the point of what he was going for...Careful Rhyperior is actually somewhat uncommon these days for this reason. And he most likely wanted to emphasize on Careful nature as a "Worst-Case Scenario" here while theorymoning, since Rhyperior would be more likely to live a Grass Knot. He wants to emphasize how Victini can be beaten even when it carries the appropriate coverage move to deal with its main checks, not advocate some new hipster set to use. And more than likely, his perception of an Expert Belt set probably runs 252 Atk and 4 SpA, because looking at the calc, that exact spread yields the average damage output he mentioned...

I mean you can run SpA on an Expert Belt set if you want but you may as well be running something else due to a lower BP V-Create that won't hammer much if it isn't Super Effective...I think the point he's just trying to make is that a more standard Victini can still be generally checked, yo.

Thats absoultely ridiculous saying rhyperior will ever be able to switch into GK Victini. You're right I did miss the point because I didn't see a point but now I think I understand. If you want a safe way to kill Victini you have to switch in Rhyperior on the right move - it can literally only come in on V-create and then hope it doesn't run any spa evs and then hope it doesn't get a high damage roll and then hope your opponent didn't set up any hazards and then hope they don' get a crit (yes it can happen there is like a 12% combined chance for that to happen that is significant) and voila you are left with a Rhyperior with about 8% health. not to mention as Rhyperior are usually the SR users of the team RHyperior will proabbly already be below 100% as it tried to set up SR earlier in the game or it has not set up SR yet and at 10% it likely never will.

I know what set he used for the calc which is why I said he was right one time when doing the v-create calc but then I questioned why he thought that was the standard eb set because as he pointed out there is no onsite eb set so by definition there is no standard eb set.

Get it out of your heads Rhyperior will never ever be a good check to GK Victini let alone a counter so don't try to give calcs that even imply Rhyperior can realistically stand a good chance against Victini. unless you use rindo and i rather not go there...

This is because there is absolutely no defensive catch all for Victini due to massive massive variety that no defender can hope to defend against. of course the same is for Mew but Mew is pretty clearly not broken, having no defensive counters doesn't make something broken it just shows how utterly messed up UU is because nobody looked out for poor little stall teams and allowed power creep to almost completely eliminate serious full stall teams.

 

[Moose V]

Thats absoultely ridiculous saying rhyperior will ever be able to switch into GK Victini. You're right I did miss the point because I didn't see a point but now I think I understand. If you want a safe way to kill Victini you have to switch in Rhyperior on the right move - it can literally only come in on V-create and then hope it doesn't run any spa evs and then hope it doesn't get a high damage roll and then hope your opponent didn't set up any hazards and then hope they don' get a crit (yes it can happen there is like a 12% combined chance for that to happen that is significant) and voila you are left with a Rhyperior with about 8% health. not to mention as Rhyperior are usually the SR users of the team RHyperior will proabbly already be below 100% as it tried to set up SR earlier in the game or it has not set up SR yet and at 10% it likely never will.

I know what set he used for the calc which is why I said he was right one time when doing the v-create calc but then I questioned why he thought that was the standard eb set because as he pointed out there is no onsite eb set so by definition there is no standard eb set.

Get it out of your heads Rhyperior will never ever be a good check to GK Victini let alone a counter so don't try to give calcs that even imply Rhyperior can realistically stand a good chance against Victini. unless you use rindo and i rather not go there...

This is because there is absolutely no defensive catch all for Victini due to massive massive variety that no defender can hope to defend against. of course the same is for Mew but Mew is pretty clearly not broken, having no defensive counters doesn't make something broken it just shows how utterly messed up UU is because nobody looked out for poor little stall teams and allowed power creep to almost completely eliminate serious full stall teams.

HOLY CRAP NO ONE SAID RHYPERIOR IS A GREAT COUNTER OR EVEN CHECK TO GK VICTINI WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS? Brobat very kindly explained to you what I was saying in my post but you still come back with these unbelievably ignorant responses. The main point of my post was to address Ace's point about Victini's strength lying in it's ability to lure things in w/ v-create and then surprise them with grass knot. It's gonna take me a while to reply to everything you said but I'm just gonna start from your first post and work down from there:

1) I did not post my calcs to vie for using careful rhyperior over adamant. I made the Rhyperior careful beacuse, like Brobat said, it's always a possibility and I, in fact, prefer it over adamant. The point of my post was that victini's v-create/grass knot combo isn't always totally reliable, even against one of the most GK susceptible pokes in the tier. Not sure why you delved into a long point about adamant.

2) Expert Belt Mixed Victini will almost always be 252 atk / 252 speed / 4 SpA. This is pretty much fact. Taking away attack EVs and putting them in SpA makes no sense because you might as well make it a special Victini at that point and a quick damage calc on a v-create will immediately reveal that said Victini has EVs elsewhere and gives away the set. Most good players will use this EV spread with the moveset of grass knot, v-create, bolt strike, u-turn/zen headbutt. Stop pretending like this set would have 252 SpA EVs because at that point it shouldn't have v-create and this is a completely different Victini set we're talking about. Also, taking away speed EVs would be just as dumb.

3) Again, I'm addressing the obvious v-create then switch to grass knot so your point about Rhyperior switching into a grass knot makes no sense.

4) Slowbro recovers more w/ slack off than grass knot does to it. It doesn't need to OHKO victini.

5) Again, never said Rhyperior should switch into victini knowing it has grass knot.

6) If a pokemon can deal out a massive STAB base 180 move followed up by an expert belt 4x super effective base 120 move to a measly base 55 SpD and still have a good chance NOT to KO, that pokemon doesn't seem particularly overpowered to me. You keep pointing out that this will leave Rhyperior crippled. Of course it will, but at the same time, Rhyperior can OHKO back and survive.

7) How is UU "messed up"? I can't make any sense of your last paragraph.

The problem here is that you keep imagining that we said things that, upon a second glance, we didn't. Rhyperior wasn't even the main point of my post, however you seem to be completely fixated on it.

 

[pokemonisfun]

1. This is ridiculous and you should know it as you keep on defending points that have almost absolutely no merit at all. If you put calcs up for Victini vs Rhyperior and conclude with anything along the lines of "so victini cannot always win" then you are so clearly implying Rhyperior is a response to Victini. I go on Admant Rhyperior AND Careful Rhyperior if you read my post but really I didn't even need to dignify the Careful sets because

Adamant:248/16/0/0/244/0 20.512% |
| Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 18.110% |
| Impish:252/4/252/0/0/0 6.828% |
| Adamant:152/104/0/0/252/0 2.984% |
| Careful:252/4/0/0/252/0 1.748% |
| Impish:252/0/252/0/4/0 1.521% |
| Other 48.298%


Yes less than 2% of Rhyperior ran a careful nature with max/max anyways which I am surprised even registers under the usage stats.


2. I am not pretending anything about Victini it can perfectly well run a set with EB and V-Create and significant special attack evs. I don't like you calling your opinions facts. Don't say it makes no sense to use special attack because almost all decisions in Pokemon can be justified like for instance Victini with special attack can do this


252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Psychic vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 338-398 (97.68 - 115.02%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

as opposed to this

4 SpA Expert Belt Victini Psychic vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 266-317 (76.87 - 91.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 276-325 (79.76 - 93.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Obviously having special attack has some use and even more obviously you are wrong sir wrong wrong wrong there is clearly some utility in using special attack. You don't need to worry about Rhyperior thinking you are some GK set because you can just lead with Victini or find a good time to bring Victini in one vs one on Rhyperior and kill it invariably with GK then.

3. You are addressing the absolute best case scenario for Rhyperior by giving it the best possible set to deal with GK Victini and the best possible move for it to switch in on in the best possible conditions (100% health and no hazards) in the best possible match up (no spa evs). Enough talk I'd like to see some replays of this happening on the ladder where this actually works for you because frankly it shouldn't ever. A case where Rhyperior does switch into Grass Knot does make sense because Rhyperior is such a perfect counter to most Victini sets that it is extremely hard to resists switching it in and it is extremely obvious for the Victini user what to do. But really thats not necessary since Victini will OHKO Rhyperior usually anyways.

4. If Slowbro switches in V-create and uses Scald as expected because it thinks Victini needs to switch out and Victini uses Grass Knot survives the Scald then Slowbro is in some trouble as the next Grass Knot could KO. If it uses Slack off instead of Scald then Victini will still use Grass Knot and use it again as Slowbro must use Slack Off again and then use it again as Slowbro uses Scald and then use it again as Slowbro uses Slack Off and then uses Grass Knot again as Slowbro KO's Victini. The chance of one of those attacks being a critical hit is about 27.5% so Slowbro is losing that match up 27.5% of the time at least.

For the first scenario if Slowbro takes the average 23.0% from V-Create recovers 6.25% from Leftovers to be at 83.75% and then eats the average 46.7% from GK while recover another 6.25% from lefties then Slowbro will be at 43.4% or so.

As grass Knot does
4 SpA Expert Belt Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 168-199 (42.74 - 50.63%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The next one is almost sure to OHKO and factoring in the extra hit Victini gets (so it has an extra crit chance) I would say Victini is easily winning on average with average damage rolls and even somewhat subpar ones.

Of course you did assume the best case scenario for Slowbro anyways for it to switch in on V-Create if the Victini user uses GK predicting that or used a set I talked about with spa then Slowbro will probably lose outright. This is all pure math and it all adds up to Slowbro probably not having more than 50 50 shot of winning the match up if it picks reasonable moves.

5. And please tell me how you would know if Victini has Grass Knot? Does the Victini look different or something? If you are using the set you think is the best with max attack then V-create will do the same as a Scarf Victini's V-Create.

6. No actually I am pointing out in realistic scenarios Victini is always going to be beating Rhyperior because Rhyperior needs everything to be running perfectly for him to have a chance and things are rarely ever perfect.

7. This is beyond the point but I already said why I thought UU was messed up because it is totally unbalanced against full stall teams as are all tiers because nobody did anything to address the power creep and instead of deciding to ban a few pokemon to help stall people decided to let an entire playstyle almost completely rot away.

I always considered myself an imaginative person so if I imagined anything you said I apologize. But in this post I addressed your discussion points point by point so I don't think I imagined anything in this post.

I rather not have my posts called ignorant please.

And lastly I never said that you said Rhyperior was a great counter or check to Victini but I said you implied it was a check because you gave calcs saying Rhyperior could survive Victini.

 

[Moose V]

Wait, when's the actual vote for Vic?

 

[Aecor]

@hilarious, just because something doesn't have an absurd amount of usage does not mean that it isn't effective or better. For example, Scizor has consistently been in the top 5 Used in usage stats for as long as I can remember, barring when Genesect was freed. Does this mean that Scizor is broken or the most effective Poke in the OU Meta? No. In fact, Landorous-I, Tornadus-T, and Keldeo were/are the ones being/already suspected. Personally, I prefer using Careful if I ever run a Rhyperior. Adamant does almost nothing when Rhyperior should be used as a dedicated tank.

The fact that Rhyperior is seen as a good check from lesser players such as yourself makes it seem that Victini is broken. The fact of the matter is that Rhyperior and Swampert are good checks to the physical set. Due to this and this alone, Grass Knot makes Victini seem like it's over the edge. However, if you really look at it, the mixed Victini set cannot reliably take out Slowbro or Blastoise with a Combination of V-Create + Grass Knot or Psychic + Grass Knot. I know this because I have used all types of Victini over the span of 1.5 years. I know what the hell I'm saying when I talk about Victini.

Victini, when revealed, is just as easy to play around as Kingdra. Depending on whether the set is Special or Physical, adequate checks or counters can be implemented in order to beat Victini. And Much like Mixed Kingdra, Mixed Victini is good for about one or two pokes, those being Swampert and Rhyperior. Snorlax and Umbreon literally take dumps all over Mixed Victini, as it can stomach all the hits and just recover it off before even having to hit it.

 

[KM]

@hilarious, just because something doesn't have an absurd amount of usage does not mean that it isn't effective or better. For example, Scizor has consistently been in the top 5 Used in usage stats for as long as I can remember, barring when Genesect was freed. Does this mean that Scizor is broken or the most effective Poke in the OU Meta? No. In fact, Landorous-I, Tornadus-T, and Keldeo were/are the ones being/already suspected. Personally, I prefer using Careful if I ever run a Rhyperior. Adamant does almost nothing when Rhyperior should be used as a dedicated tank.

The fact that Rhyperior is seen as a good check from lesser players such as yourself makes it seem that Victini is broken. The fact of the matter is that Rhyperior and Swampert are good checks to the physical set. Due to this and this alone, Grass Knot makes Victini seem like it's over the edge. However, if you really look at it, the mixed Victini set cannot reliably take out Slowbro or Blastoise with a Combination of V-Create + Grass Knot or Psychic + Grass Knot. I know this because I have used all types of Victini over the span of 1.5 years. I know what the hell I'm saying when I talk about Victini.

Victini, when revealed, is just as easy to play around as Kingdra. Depending on whether the set is Special or Physical, adequate checks or counters can be implemented in order to beat Victini. And Much like Mixed Kingdra, Mixed Victini is good for about one or two pokes, those being Swampert and Rhyperior. Snorlax and Umbreon literally take dumps all over Mixed Victini, as it can stomach all the hits and just recover it off before even having to hit it.

In general, we should stray away from calling people lesser players, but I agree with the overall sentiment. The point that the last 10 posts about rhyperior have been trying to make is nothing more than the fact that Rhyperior is a poke that Mixed Victini is specifically designed to kill, and it can't always 100% kill it. We're not saying that rhyperior is such a great counter to all Victini, we're just saying that Mixed Victini isn't all it's hyped up to be.

 

[Aecor]

@Kitten Milk, That was a bit out of line. I just don't like people insulting my Boy Moose.

Anyways, what Kitten Milk is right. Mixed Victini is SUPPOSED to lure Rhyperior out.

 

[kokoloko]

Don't go back on your words, plz

When I announced the conditions under which Sand would get a test (which I even had the courtesy to talk to you about first, I might add), I very clearly stated that it would be at the very bottom of the priority list and that if we ran out of time, Sand would not get tested. I'm not going back on my word, even if it doesn't get tested (but it most likely will anyway).

Also I will personally delete every post about Sand and/or it retest because that is irrelevant until Vict's test is done.

As for when the test will begin... soon. I want to give the meta a few more days to settle after Froslass's ban before setting up a suspect ladder (if I even decide to go this route). Don't ask what reqs are going to be; I have no idea yet.

 

[TPO3]

@hilarious, just because something doesn't have an absurd amount of usage does not mean that it isn't effective or better. For example, Scizor has consistently been in the top 5 Used in usage stats for as long as I can remember, barring when Genesect was freed. Does this mean that Scizor is broken or the most effective Poke in the OU Meta? No. In fact, Landorous-I, Tornadus-T, and Keldeo were/are the ones being/already suspected. Personally, I prefer using Careful if I ever run a Rhyperior. Adamant does almost nothing when Rhyperior should be used as a dedicated tank.

The fact that Rhyperior is seen as a good check from lesser players such as yourself makes it seem that Victini is broken. The fact of the matter is that Rhyperior and Swampert are good checks to the physical set. Due to this and this alone, Grass Knot makes Victini seem like it's over the edge. However, if you really look at it, the mixed Victini set cannot reliably take out Slowbro or Blastoise with a Combination of V-Create + Grass Knot or Psychic + Grass Knot. I know this because I have used all types of Victini over the span of 1.5 years. I know what the hell I'm saying when I talk about Victini.

Victini, when revealed, is just as easy to play around as Kingdra. Depending on whether the set is Special or Physical, adequate checks or counters can be implemented in order to beat Victini. And Much like Mixed Kingdra, Mixed Victini is good for about one or two pokes, those being Swampert and Rhyperior. Snorlax and Umbreon literally take dumps all over Mixed Victini, as it can stomach all the hits and just recover it off before even having to hit it.

I agree with all of this post EXCEPT the part where you say Victini is 'just as easy' to play around as Kingdra. Because really, it's not. Saying "when its revealed" doesn't make it so, either. During the turn it's unrevealed, you have absolutely no clue what you're up against, and you could literally lose the match because you switched in the wrong pokemon.

There are several pokemon that can switch into (not beat 100% of the time, but initially switch into) Kingdra, no matter what set it is. Such pokemon include Shaymin, Slowking, Snorlax, Empoleon, Registel (lol), Porygon2, Umbreon, and Stallbreaker Mew. Any of these pokemon can absorb Specs Draco Meteor barring a crit, and then either force kingdra out with a powerful attack, heal themselves, threaten to status it, or phaze it. Again, these pokemon don't /always/ beat Kingdra, but they can switch in and scout which set it is, which means for the rest of the match you (should) know exactly how to react. In addition to these pokemon, things like Scarf Flygon and Mienshao will serve as offensive checks to all sets that aren't Rain Dance, and any Steel-type at all will prevent Kingdra from recklessly locking itself into outrage.

Victin is nowhere near as easy to play around because pokemon that beat Physical Victini (ie: Rhyperior, Swampert) are completely obliterated by the special set, and pokemon that wall Mixed/Special Tini are completely obliterated by the physical sets. Yes, each Victini set has its own individual set of counters, but there is absolutely no pokemon in the entire tier that can switch into all Victini, regardless of what set it is. Snorlax is about the best you have, but even with Thick Fat it gets 2HKO'd by the mighty CB V-Create. There are offensive Checks to all Victini, such as Kingdra, or Scarf Flygon, or Scarf Chandelure, but offensive checks are all it has, and none of them can switch consistently. Saying Victini is as easy to play around as Kingdra is ALMOST as amusing as calling hilarious a "lesser player."

 

[Aecor]

What Snorlax is losing to a Mixed Victini?

 

[kokoloko]

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 221-260 (47.93 - 56.39%) -- 86.72% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Thick Fat Snorlax: 165-196 (35.79 - 42.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

oO

Also, Victini's suspect status has very little to do with the fact that it can get surprise kills, so I suggest you guys stop arguing about that if you want to be taken seriously, lol.

 

[Ace Emerald]

What Snorlax is losing to a Mixed Victini?

252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 204-240 (44.25 - 52.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 205-242 (41.24 - 48.69%) -- 17.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Depending in the mixed Victini, it could be any Snorlax lol. Alright this discussion is seriously going in circles and it is giving me a headache. I want to bring the discussion back to the argument to ban Victini that I have yet to see logically and soundly defeated: Victini is so versatile and hard to predict that you can lose a Pokemon early game though you made no incorrect plays, and your opponent made no good plays. Sure you can counter Vic, but what matters is that sometimes you cannot, and the reason why this matters more then the times where you can is because you cannot control when you counter it correctly. Surprise kills on Rhyperior are but a small facet of the larger argument to ban Vic, which is quite simply that it is impossible to know when you have a good counter.