np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
@kokoloko, this isn't a challenge to your superiority or whatever I'm just legitimately curious as I imagine you were one of the people who started the suspect for Victini. Regardless of whether or not you believe Victini should be banned, why did you put Victini up for suspect? You stated that Victini's suspect status has little to do with its surprise kills, which I can understand. However, earlier in the thread, both sides agreed that Victini shouldn't be banned for its nuking potential. Is it just that Victini's versatility makes it a threat (not that it can get surprise kills), or is there something else that we haven't picked up on?
 

kokoloko

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Things get put up for a suspect test when enough people ask for it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you're confused as to what a suspect actually is. Something doesn't have to be broken/ban-worthy to be a suspect, when something is proven to be broken/ban-worthy, it gets banned.

As for my personal opinion on Vict... dunno. I'm indifferent, tbh. On one hand, it's true that the pro-ban side is kinda blowing Vict's capacity a bit out of proportion, but on the other, their arguments are well founded. Vict kinda does just nuke everything, but unlike Darmanitan, it's versatile as fuck and /can/ completely fuck you over in a single turn. On top of which, it can bluff with the best of them. The kicker imo is that each one of the standard sets is really hard to check even once it's been revealed. It's the combination of all these things that makes it so fucking dangerous.

What's annoying, from a leadership standpoint, is that the ladder is not a good place to showcase Vict's full potential, as most people don't use those few precious turns where its set is unrevealed correctly. It's easy to get caught up in the whole "it doesn't perform that well in practice" thing when you keep to the ladder and don't actively play against the best.
 

Ernesto

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Can I stop you for a second there, Ace? I know people are comparing Victini with DPP Garchomp (or was it Salamence? Damn, I just read about DPP Salamence and I got them mixed up) and I can't really comment on that because I didn't play competitively back then, however I'm pretty sure I can say a couple of things.

I was refraining from posting here because there's just too many things being discussed at once, but I'm gonna have to do it anyway. You're saying Victini's versatility is such that you can lose a Poke without misplaying or without being outplayed, and I find that hard to believe. Maybe it's because of the way I build my teams. But, if for example (and I'm using Pokes from the last team I used extensively) you switched Slowbro into Victini, it showed Blue Flare and LO recoil (or just Blue Flare but without it being Specs damage, it's the same for this part), and you left it in even though you had Scarf Flygon on the wings, and Slowbro died to a Thunder, I'd call that a misplay in your part because you know Victini /can/ have that move, even if it almost never uses it. If, on the other hand, it used Thunder outright and left your Slowbro near-dead or dead (with Expert Belt, it's a coinflip after SR), I'd consider that getting outplayed. I might be giving those terms a wider meaning, though.

I can give room to koko's point of it being able to wallbreak to a point where stuff are just so weak other Pokes can pick up the pieces, though. That's Victini's job, and it's one of the biggest reasons defensive teams have to keep their eyes open against it. Luckily we have Team Preview, so if like, you left your Qwilfish to die even with the knowledge your opponent had Scarf Mienshao, there's a certain degree of responsibility on your part. I dunno, maybe it's the way I teambuild (for example, I'd tried making a defensive Mismagius team and ended up with Qwilfish, Rhyperior, Lefties Offensive Snorlax, and Umbreon, and Mismagius had 216 Speed EVs with a Timid nature, so lol).

I won't be vouching to have Protect in every Pokemon to scout if Victini has the right move to kill you or anything of the sort, because that would be taking things too far. However, if you have the knowledge of what moves Victini might run (not what is common on the ladder, its possible moves), you should technically be able to handle it after that first move. And if it Thunders your Slowbro in the first turn, then applaud your opponent for outplaying you (even if it was an unnecessary risk). That's what I think and it's the biggest reason I can't put it to the level of Kingdra or Chandelure as for offensive threats, because in those cases, if you don't have the right Poke to check every set (Slowking and Ice Beam Empoleon for the former, Snorlax and lol Houndoom for the latter), you can still play around them but you're at a much bigger risk before you know the set (and also Kingdra can technically wallbreak and sweep at the same time, not that it matters). In Victini's case, as long as you don't leave in Rhyperior against a Lead Tini, you can possibly beat it if you don't get outplayed. And if you do, better luck next time, right? I'm not implying anything about Kingdra or Chandelure's place in the tier, considering I'd posted in both threads saying why I didn't think they deserved to be banned at the time. I've also had to play around both for a huge amount of matches when I was trying to get reqs in Suspect ladder (I ran RT Hail), and like 90% of the time was victorius, but mostly because people misplayed with them (I mean, if you have Specs Chandelure that destroys everything that switches in, why leave it to get rk'd after getting the first kill? lol).

Maybe I'm being too minimalistic reductionist? It's certainly a possibility. I might be having a really closeminded thought of the subject, considering some teams' only thing faster than 328 Speed is Scarf Mienshao. So you can't really expect to succeed against all Victini. I'm not gonna be the judge of other people's teambuilding, but there are certainly many options to choose from to have at least one thing that can switch into a particular move and not have to come in on the revenge kill! Because that certainly is a good way of pressuring the opponent as well as scouting for a move. Not that I'm suggesting you go from Slowbro to Crobat expecting Grass Knot, rather that you make the safest plays while you're familiarizing yourself with the opposing player.

Note that I'm not talking from my experience on the ladder, because I've seen plenty of times that people left their Rhyperior in on a Victini that had only revealed that it wasn't Banded/Specs'd. Victini is as scary as you make it out to be when you face it, and I can only see a cute little rodent when I do.

OK three people posted while I was writing this, lol. I'm gonna have to organize my thoughts when I'm more awake, so this will probably get cut down tomorrow (so people will actually read it!). The point was mainly that I didn't really see what Ace was saying, and that if there's one set that's scary when you don't have the right Poke (Slowbro, Rhyperior, Swampert or defensive Arcanine), it's the CB set for sure. Of course Slowbro takes a lot from Bolt Strike, and Rhype and Swampert might fear Grass Knot if you're playing Kitten Milk, but luckily the former has Regenerator and GK isn't always the best option on BandTini, so I'm not gonna have to lower it to merely Arcanine. Once I know it isn't Banded I'm certain I won't have to suffer so much switching in.
 
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Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
Can I stop you for a second there, Ace? I know people are comparing Victini with DPP Garchomp (or was it Salamence? Damn, I just read about DPP Salamence and I got them mixed up) and I can't really comment on that because I didn't play competitively back then, however I'm pretty sure I can say a couple of things.

I was refraining from posting here because there's just too many things being discussed at once, but I'm gonna have to do it anyway. You're saying Victini's versatility is such that you can lose a Poke without misplaying or without being outplayed, and I find that hard to believe. Maybe it's because of the way I build my teams. But, if for example (and I'm using Pokes from the last team I used extensively) you switched Slowbro into Victini, it showed Blue Flare and LO recoil (or just Blue Flare but without it being Specs damage, it's the same for this part), and you left it in even though you had Scarf Flygon on the wings, and Slowbro died to a Thunder, I'd call that a misplay in your part because you know Victini /can/ have that move, even if it almost never uses it. If, on the other hand, it used Thunder outright and left your Slowbro near-dead or dead (with Expert Belt, it's a coinflip after SR), I'd consider that getting outplayed. I might be giving those terms a wider meaning, though.

I can give room to koko's point of it being able to wallbreak to a point where stuff are just so weak other Pokes can pick up the pieces, though. That's Victini's job, and it's one of the biggest reasons defensive teams have to keep their eyes open against it. Luckily we have Team Preview, so if like, you left your Qwilfish to die even with the knowledge your opponent had Scarf Mienshao, there's a certain degree of responsibility on your part. I dunno, maybe it's the way I teambuild (for example, I'd tried making a defensive Mismagius team and ended up with Qwilfish, Rhyperior, Lefties Offensive Snorlax, and Umbreon, and Mismagius had 216 Speed EVs with a Timid nature, so lol).

I won't be vouching to have Protect in every Pokemon to scout if Victini has the right move to kill you or anything of the sort, because that would be taking things too far. However, if you have the knowledge of what moves Victini might run (not what is common on the ladder, its possible moves), you should technically be able to handle it after that first move. And if it Thunders your Slowbro in the first turn, then applaud your opponent for outplaying you (even if it was an unnecessary risk). That's what I think and it's the biggest reason I can't put it to the level of Kingdra or Chandelure as for offensive threats, because in those cases, if you don't have the right Poke to check every set (Slowking and Ice Beam Empoleon for the former, Snorlax and lol Houndoom for the latter), you can still play around them but you're at a much bigger risk before you know the set (and also Kingdra can technically wallbreak and sweep at the same time, not that it matters). In Victini's case, as long as you don't leave in Rhyperior against a Lead Tini, you can possibly beat it if you don't get outplayed. And if you do, better luck next time, right? I'm not implying anything about Kingdra or Chandelure's place in the tier, considering I'd posted in both threads saying why I didn't think they deserved to be banned at the time. I've also had to play around both for a huge amount of matches when I was trying to get reqs in Suspect ladder (I ran RT Hail), and like 90% of the time was victorius, but mostly because people misplayed with them (I mean, if you have Specs Chandelure that destroys everything that switches in, why leave it to get rk'd after getting the first kill? lol).

Maybe I'm being too minimalistic? It's certainly a possibility. I might be having a really closeminded thought of the subject, considering some teams' only thing faster than 328 Speed is Scarf Mienshao. So you can't really expect to succeed against all Victini. I'm not gonna be the judge of other people's teambuilding, but there are certainly many options to choose from to have at least one thing that can switch into a particular move and not have to come in on the revenge kill! Because that certainly is a good way of pressuring the opponent as well as scouting for a move. Not that I'm suggesting you go from Slowbro to Crobat expecting Grass Knot, rather that you make the safest plays while you're familiarizing yourself with the opposing player.

Note that I'm not talking from my experience on the ladder, because I've seen plenty of times that people left their Rhyperior in on a Victini that had only revealed that it wasn't Banded/Specs'd. Victini is as scary as you make it out to be when you face it, and I can only see a cute little rodent when I do.

OK three people posted while I was writing this, lol. I'm gonna have to organize my thoughts when I'm more awake, so this will probably get cut down tomorrow (so people will actually read it!). The point was mainly that I didn't really see what Ace was saying, and that if there's one set that's scary when you don't have the right Poke (Slowbro, Rhyperior, Swampert or defensive Arcanine), it's the CB set for sure. Of course Slowbro takes a lot from Bolt Strike, and Rhype and Swampert might fear Grass Knot if you're playing Kitten Milk, but luckily the former has Regenerator and GK isn't always the best option on BandTini, so I'm not gonna have to lower it to merely Arcanine. Once I know it isn't Banded I'm certain I won't have to suffer so much switching in.
This is exactly what I've been trying to say, but Ernesto is clearly much better at getting his point across lol ^^. But yeah, I'd definitely like to expound on the 2nd paragraph, because I think it raises a lot of good points. I see a lot of people who want to ban Victini saying that with the standard sets, there are at least a few turns where the opponent doesn't know what set it is. This is just completely untrue. According to Smogon, there are three standard Victini sets, band, scarf, and LO special. Scarf and Band have very similar movesets, but you'll know immediately which set it is depending on how hard you get hit. Life Orb is even more obvious with the 10% Recoil. And, as we've already discussed, Victini's ability to get surprise kills (e.g., running Grass Knot on a bandtini, full-out MixTini) isn't what it's suspected for, so I really don't understand why everyone is talking about how hard it is to figure out what Victini it is. The only way you would not know what Victini it is after its first switched in would be if it baton passed or hard switched, neither of which are all too threatening.

Furthermore, it is usually pretty easy in high-level play to make a fairly accurate prediction before the game even starts on whether Victini is special or physical - or even if it's banded. If you know the player is good, and you can see that the team would have a giant Rhyperior weakness (or whatever) if Victini were physical, you can safely hedge your bets that its a special Victini, and prepare accordingly. Lower on the ladder this isn't as common, of course, but as Kokoloko stated, the ladder doesn't make good use of Victini's versatility/surprise factor.
 

Ace Emerald

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I was refraining from posting here because there's just too many things being discussed at once, but I'm gonna have to do it anyway. You're saying Victini's versatility is such that you can lose a Poke without misplaying or without being outplayed, and I find that hard to believe. Maybe it's because of the way I build my teams. But, if for example (and I'm using Pokes from the last team I used extensively) you switched Slowbro into Victini, it showed Blue Flare and LO recoil (or just Blue Flare but without it being Specs damage, it's the same for this part), and you left it in even though you had Scarf Flygon on the wings, and Slowbro died to a Thunder, I'd call that a misplay in your part because you know Victini /can/ have that move, even if it almost never uses it. If, on the other hand, it used Thunder outright and left your Slowbro near-dead or dead (with Expert Belt, it's a coinflip after SR), I'd consider that getting outplayed. I might be giving those terms a wider meaning, though.
I've got two problems with this example: One: it's way too specific. Sure, if they show LO and Blue Flare if you have a Flygon, then yeah its your fault if you lose Slowbro. But its not always that specific. Which brings me to problem two. Say you're against something that Vic forces out (ie lots of stuff) and they have Slowbro, Thundering the switch is very safe and not at all outplaying someone. Something like Shaymin is going to flee the moment Vic comes out as LO Earth Power doesn't even OHKO with SR and Shaymin is a very important pivot that fears both Fire moves and U-turn. Thundering the switch is an easy move with very little risk to you.

I can give room to koko's point of it being able to wallbreak to a point where stuff are just so weak other Pokes can pick up the pieces, though. That's Victini's job, and it's one of the biggest reasons defensive teams have to keep their eyes open against it. Luckily we have Team Preview, so if like, you left your Qwilfish to die even with the knowledge your opponent had Scarf Mienshao, there's a certain degree of responsibility on your part. I dunno, maybe it's the way I teambuild (for example, I'd tried making a defensive Mismagius team and ended up with Qwilfish, Rhyperior, Lefties Offensive Snorlax, and Umbreon, and Mismagius had 216 Speed EVs with a Timid nature, so lol).

I won't be vouching to have Protect in every Pokemon to scout if Victini has the right move to kill you or anything of the sort, because that would be taking things too far. However, if you have the knowledge of what moves Victini might run (not what is common on the ladder, its possible moves), you should technically be able to handle it after that first move. And if it Thunders your Slowbro in the first turn, then applaud your opponent for outplaying you (even if it was an unnecessary risk). That's what I think and it's the biggest reason I can't put it to the level of Kingdra or Chandelure as for offensive threats, because in those cases, if you don't have the right Poke to check every set (Slowking and Ice Beam Empoleon for the former, Snorlax and lol Houndoom for the latter), you can still play around them but you're at a much bigger risk before you know the set (and also Kingdra can technically wallbreak and sweep at the same time, not that it matters). In Victini's case, as long as you don't leave in Rhyperior against a Lead Tini, you can possibly beat it if you don't get outplayed. And if you do, better luck next time, right? I'm not implying anything about Kingdra or Chandelure's place in the tier, considering I'd posted in both threads saying why I didn't think they deserved to be banned at the time. I've also had to play around both for a huge amount of matches when I was trying to get reqs in Suspect ladder (I ran RT Hail), and like 90% of the time was victorius, but mostly because people misplayed with them (I mean, if you have Specs Chandelure that destroys everything that switches in, why leave it to get rk'd after getting the first kill? lol).
I'd like to bring up something that koko said that is very true: its not over when you know the set. I grouped these paragraphs together for a reason: the team you listed is entirely 2HKO'd by Special Vic using Blue Flare/Psychic or Thunder/Grass Knot/Focus Blast, and everything but Mismagius is outpaced. If Vics only talent was to lure and kill, I don't know if I'd still be for banning it (though I know my main argument for banning it revolves mainly around luring, it is by no means exclusive or limited to that). But not only can it lure and kill, it can wallbreak like a boss even when you know exactly what it can do. I'm honestly considering running a Band set with 0 SpA Grass Knot because after one Grass Knot on Rhyperior, it can't switch into V-create again and then I can spam V-create even if my opponent knows exactly what s/he's facing.

Maybe I'm being too minimalistic? It's certainly a possibility. I might be having a really closeminded thought of the subject, considering some teams' only thing faster than 328 Speed is Scarf Mienshao. So you can't really expect to succeed against all Victini. I'm not gonna be the judge of other people's teambuilding, but there are certainly many options to choose from to have at least one thing that can switch into a particular move and not have to come in on the revenge kill! Because that certainly is a good way of pressuring the opponent as well as scouting for a move. Not that I'm suggesting you go from Slowbro to Crobat expecting Grass Knot, rather that you make the safest plays while you're familiarizing yourself with the opposing player.
Again, my two main points here: the Vic player can make safe moves and get essential KOs before you get that familiarity, and even when you know the set it can still screw you over.
 
Ace, you have to keep in mind that LO Blue Flare is not specific. Generally, if you see LO, the assumption can be made that it is at the very least mixed (Life Orb Physical Victini is pretty horrid). The point he [Ernesto] was making about Flygon was having a Fire Resist. For the most part, many competitive teams carry 1+ fire resist, whether it be a dragon, fire, rock, or water type. He's saying that if the Victini seems to be Mixed/Special, you should really be scouting for moves. The only way I can describe it for you in simpler terms is it reminds me a lot of Expert Belt Tyranitar from 4th Gen. Carrying Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Crunch, and EQ. It could effectively lure certain Pokes and pop them with the appropriate move.

Another thing, just because Victini can 2HK the entire tier does not mean it can. You have to remember that if it opts to run that coverage move, it has to forgo the CS, therefore, it only peaks at 328 speed. A multitude of Pokes can outspeed and do work on it. You said how Shaymin cannot OHK Victini because of Earth Power. You have to keep in mind that Epower is NOT STAB, whereas V-Create/Blue Flare IS STAB for Victini. A better and more fairer comparison would be Flygon using EQ on Victini since it gets that nice 50% boost.

Now, addressing your two points. The player using Victini cannot always make the "safest" play. For example, if your opponent leads with Scarfed Mienshao and you your Victini, it is quite obvious that Mienshao will outspeed regardless of the Victini set. Because Mienshao cannot readily OHK Victini with Stone Edge it U-Turns out. If it has the options between Porygon 2 and Rhyperior, what move do you go for? If you opt to go for U-Turn, the damage will often reveal in higher levels of play what set it is. If it isn't doing a clean X%, the opponent will recognize that all EV's are not invested in Attack. If you opt to V-Create, you risk it being switched into Rhyperior juxtaposed to P2. Once Rhyperior switches in, again, the damage will oft reveal whether it is Band, Scarf, or Ebelt. The simple act of Switching into P2 after Rhyperior will without a doubt show whether Victini carries the Grass Knot or not. Once that is revealed, the opponent will realize that Victini will be walled by Snorlax, Umbreon, P2, and any giant tanks with mixed defenses since it cannot OHK or 2HK anything without the proper prediction (eg, Rhyperior with Grass Knot).
 

Ace Emerald

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Ace, you have to keep in mind that LO Blue Flare is not specific. Generally, if you see LO, the assumption can be made that it is at the very least mixed (Life Orb Physical Victini is pretty horrid). The point he [Ernesto] was making about Flygon was having a Fire Resist. For the most part, many competitive teams carry 1+ fire resist, whether it be a dragon, fire, rock, or water type. He's saying that if the Victini seems to be Mixed/Special, you should really be scouting for moves. The only way I can describe it for you in simpler terms is it reminds me a lot of Expert Belt Tyranitar from 4th Gen. Carrying Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Crunch, and EQ. It could effectively lure certain Pokes and pop them with the appropriate move.
Theres big difference between bluff tar and Vic. Vic can actually wallbreak in its own right (as opposed to relying only of bluffing) due to its Speed and (ironically) superior power. And again, its not being suspected only for bluffing, its being suspected because its an awesome wallbreaker.

Another thing, just because Victini can 2HK the entire tier does not mean it can. You have to remember that if it opts to run that coverage move, it has to forgo the CS, therefore, it only peaks at 328 speed. A multitude of Pokes can outspeed and do work on it. You said how Shaymin cannot OHK Victini because of Earth Power. You have to keep in mind that Epower is NOT STAB, whereas V-Create/Blue Flare IS STAB for Victini. A better and more fairer comparison would be Flygon using EQ on Victini since it gets that nice 50% boost.
Revenge killing is never an effective way to deal with a wallbreaker. To revenge kill, one must first let a Pokemon go. That is the sole goal of a wallbreaker. Yeah its not going to sweep your balanced team (it might sweep Ernesto's team though lol), but if you successfully revenge it, it's already completed its goal. The bit about Epower was purely in the example, I wasn't even commenting on its bulk @.@ (which is great tbh)

Now, addressing your two points. The player using Victini cannot always make the "safest" play. For example, if your opponent leads with Scarfed Mienshao and you your Victini, it is quite obvious that Mienshao will outspeed regardless of the Victini set. Because Mienshao cannot readily OHK Victini with Stone Edge it U-Turns out. If it has the options between Porygon 2 and Rhyperior, what move do you go for? If you opt to go for U-Turn, the damage will often reveal in higher levels of play what set it is. If it isn't doing a clean X%, the opponent will recognize that all EV's are not invested in Attack. If you opt to V-Create, you risk it being switched into Rhyperior juxtaposed to P2. Once Rhyperior switches in, again, the damage will oft reveal whether it is Band, Scarf, or Ebelt. The simple act of Switching into P2 after Rhyperior will without a doubt show whether Victini carries the Grass Knot or not. Once that is revealed, the opponent will realize that Victini will be walled by Snorlax, Umbreon, P2, and any giant tanks with mixed defenses since it cannot OHK or 2HK anything without the proper prediction (eg, Rhyperior with Grass Knot).
You go for the Focus Blast and 2HKO both.
 
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Ernesto

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Weird, I don't remember getting drunk last night, yet somehow I managed to receive quite a bit of notifications. I must've been rather slutty.

Good Lord Ace, Victini has to hit FB on the Snorlax switch to 2HKO, otherwise it's really risky for it to stay in (as in, expecting a Pursuit). Any other move puts Victini in an uncomfortable position. Also Focus Blast isn't the best move to be spamming, js. Even after VStar, its accuracy is only a bit better than that of Sleep Powder, and we all know that when you only have to use Sleep once, you miss it twice more often than what would be expected, lol.

The point I was trying to get across at 1 am was that you're usually gonna have two checks to Fire-types, so if Victini gets one KO or near-KO on one of at least two possible switches, the Vic user has outplayed you, as I see it. Of course, if Slowbro is the only thing that can switch into it, then yea, Thunder is suddenly safer, but it generally shouldn't be the case. I, as the Victini player, would prefer to use Blue Flare in any other case (or V-create), simply because it hits every possible switch and is usually less risky (unless the opponent has a Chandelure or Houndoom, of course). If Blue Flare hits everything, it will surely be the best move. You might have a different mindset, and I respect that but you're wrong and I hate you, but you shouldn't be trying to predict what your opponent does most of the time. Ask reach, who tried to Pursuit my Rotom-F with Snorlax and ended up losing :p . In common matches, your scenario where Victini KOes something without outplaying the opponent or without a misplay on their part isn't gonna happen too often.

I'm gonna stop discussing now, I'll let you guys kill each other over the Internet, I'm not gonna try to defend a position that nobody believes in that is in itself shaky. I'd appreciate it if you guys didn't quote me.

EDIT: Can't you just beat Rhyperior by repeatedly U-turning? That opens up a moveslot for stuff like Sleep Talk, which albeit will be more situational, definitely comes in handy when you need it... I don't know, I mean I see GK's use, but considering V-create already deals 35% to Swampert/Rhype, that last moveslot could be spared for something that helps its team more. Just wondering.
 
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PK Gaming

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I've changed my mind about Victini, we really should try to get it out of our tier as fast as possible.

At the very least, banning it make stall viable again because it's simply inoperable with Victini around. If you consider Victini a part of the UU metagame, then you're also implicitly acknowledging that stall is simply not viable in this tier. I can see why some of you might not have a problem with Victini, as most of the Victini's you face are probably Banded or Scarfed. Completely disregard those sets at the moment; V-Create / Bolt Strike / U-turn / Grass Knot with Charcoal or Expert Belt is the set that's causing the most problem in UU right now. To put it bluntly, it nearly guarantees a kill every time it switches safely switches in. There are no if's or but's about that previous state. If it switches in, it's going to severely kill or cripple any Pokemon (in the latter case, get off scot-free), and there's very little you can do about it.

I used to subscribe to the notion that Stealth Rock and pivot switches alone were enough to stop it, so I can somewhat empathize with the anti-ban side but, as it stands UU is just "barely" dealing with Victini at the moment. If our goal is to achieve to absolute most balanced metagame then we should really consider getting rid of Victini.
 
Oh, if you want stall to be viable you mine as well ban taunt mew while you're at it. And I think sableye kind of shits on stall.

Stall teams should have an answer to: Togekiss, Specs Kingdra, SD Heracross, and MixedTini. If you don't have an answer for these common stall destroyers, don't play stall.
 

Ace Emerald

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Oh, if you want stall to be viable you mine as well ban taunt mew while you're at it. And I think sableye kind of shits on stall.

Stall teams should have an answer to: Togekiss, Specs Kingdra, SD Heracross, and MixedTini. If you don't have an answer for these common stall destroyers, don't play stall.
The irony of your post is that taunt wow Mew is actually a godsend to stall (just ask @reachzero ), and both Mew and Sableye are wrecked by Toxic Spikes and 100% hard countered by Xatu. Of the 4 you listed, 2 can be countered by 1 Pokemon (bulky Zapdos with some Speed and HP flying), and the other is countered by several things (I would not call specs Kingdra a stallbreaker, its a wallbreaker and the two, while not exclusive, are not the same). I'm hoping reach will jump in here (but I know an old man like him often cannot be bothered to argue) because I didn't actually know Vic was such a stallbreaker (I never really stall), but reach's argument against it on irc was strong enough to convince PK Gaming to switch sides.
 
Oh, if you want stall to be viable you mine as well ban taunt mew while you're at it. And I think sableye kind of shits on stall.

Stall teams should have an answer to: Togekiss, Specs Kingdra, SD Heracross, and MixedTini. If you don't have an answer for these common stall destroyers, don't play stall.
There are differences between common stallbreakers and Victini. I'll break this down for you;

Unlike Mew and Sableye, Victini literally kills stall, whereas the other two just stop them. Anything you'd find on a stall team gets wrecked by one of Victini's common moves. As you've seen in previous examples, Victini shits on the tier, and can 2HKO everything in the tier. This means that the likes of Snorlax, Cofagrigus, and many of the tough, bulky Pokemon typically seen on a stall team just get flattened, when they can neither set up hazards or phaze Victini. As PK gladly pointed out, if Victini gets a safe switch-in, at least one Pokemon on said stall team is fucked beyond belief. Victini is one of the few Pokemon in the tier that we're just managing to deal with, much like Staraptor way back when. There's only a small handful of viable Pokemon that can handle Victini, much like how Impish Bronzong and Rhyperior had to become answers to Staraptor, and these Pokemon are still capable of being squashed by Victini's coverage options. There really are no set safe switches to Victini, you just gotta take a chance and hope that the opponent underpredicts or overpredicts your move.

Unlike past threats, such as Chandelure, Heracross, or Kingdra, Victini has no stops, just pauses. Each one of those past threats had something that shut them down. Chandelure has Porygon2, Heracross has Cofagrigus, and Kingdra has Ferroseed. However, and I'll repeat this for emphasis, Victini 2HKOs the entire tier. The entire tier. How do you support the keeping of a Pokemon that has no sound checks and counters, and can only be beaten by being outsped?
 
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TPO3

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Oh, if you want stall to be viable you mine as well ban taunt mew while you're at it. And I think sableye kind of shits on stall.
I can't tell if you're using this statement as an argument to keep Victini in the tier or not. If you are, please just stop. If not, then I'll happily discuss. Stallbreaker Mew can be handled by quite a few pokemon, like Cofagrigus, Foul Play Umbreon, or your own Taunt Sableye. Opposing Sableye are easily handled by any special attacker in the tier, several of which are viable on stall, such as Zapdos, SubSeed Shaymin, Porygon2, and more. Stallbreaker Mew and Sableye really only "shit on" poorly-built or poorly-played stall teams, neither one of which are reasons they should be banned.

EDIT: goddamn ninjas 9.9
 
I've changed my mind about Victini, we really should try to get it out of our tier as fast as possible.

At the very least, banning it make stall viable again because it's simply inoperable with Victini around. If you consider Victini a part of the UU metagame, then you're also implicitly acknowledging that stall is simply not viable in this tier. I can see why some of you might not have a problem with Victini, as most of the Victini's you face are probably Banded or Scarfed. Completely disregard those sets at the moment; V-Create / Bolt Strike / U-turn / Grass Knot with Charcoal or Expert Belt is the set that's causing the most problem in UU right now. To put it bluntly, it nearly guarantees a kill every time it switches safely switches in. There are no if's or but's about that previous state. If it switches in, it's going to severely kill or cripple any Pokemon (in the latter case, get off scot-free), and there's very little you can do about it.

I used to subscribe to the notion that Stealth Rock and pivot switches alone were enough to stop it, so I can somewhat empathize with the anti-ban side but, as it stands UU is just "barely" dealing with Victini at the moment. If our goal is to achieve to absolute most balanced metagame then we should really consider getting rid of Victini.
Can you give me an example of a stall team that Victini wrecks? Not that I don't believe you but you might want to be a little more specific due to the fact that there are many different levels of stall ranging from semi-stall to all out hyper stall. If you're talking about hyper stall, I don't think that should be played in the first place, but what is any Victini set going to do against a team like one consisting of Umbreon, Gligar, Slowbro, Hitmontop, Zapdos, Qwilfish? Again, to reiterate, I'm not arguing with you, I just need a specific before I can agree or disagree with you.
 

Ace Emerald

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Can you give me an example of a stall team that Victini wrecks? Not that I don't believe you but you might want to be a little more specific due to the fact that there are many different levels of stall ranging from semi-stall to all out hyper stall. If you're talking about hyper stall, I don't think that should be played in the first place, but what is any Victini set going to do against a team like one consisting of Umbreon, Gligar, Slowbro, Hitmontop, Zapdos, Qwilfish? Again, to reiterate, I'm not arguing with you, I just need a specific before I can agree or disagree with you.
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 253-298 (66.05 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 172-203 (43.65 - 51.52%) -- 69.92% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hitmontop: 212-251 (69.73 - 82.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Thunder vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 341-403 (86.76 - 102.54%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 458-541 (137.12 - 161.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 220-259 (65.86 - 77.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I mean I hate to just post calcs but I mean they kind of speak for themselves right?
 
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 253-298 (66.05 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 172-203 (43.65 - 51.52%) -- 69.92% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hitmontop: 212-251 (69.73 - 82.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Thunder vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 341-403 (86.76 - 102.54%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 458-541 (137.12 - 161.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 220-259 (65.86 - 77.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I mean I hate to just post calcs but I mean they kind of speak for themselves right?
Obviously you make a good point but there are a couple things wrong with this:
1) Umbreon, after a protect has a only 6.64% to get 2HKO'd, which becomes a 3.93% if you factor in the fact that focus bast misses often, which is hardly reliable chances. Thus, even with rocks up, umbreon hard walls this set and can life orb stall it until it dies.
2) Every single attack you listed has <100% accuracy
3) The only thing that Victini can OHKO w/o rocks (the team does have a spinner after all) is qwilfish and Victini does not appreciate taking any hit from anything here
4) These calcs assume the Victini user gets every prediction right
 
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Obviously you make a good point but there are a couple things wrong with this:
1) Umbreon, after a protect has a only 6.64% to get 2HKO'd, which becomes a 3.93% if you factor in the fact that focus bast misses often, which is hardly reliable chances. Thus, even with rocks up, umbreon hard walls this set and can life orb stall it until it dies.
Because, you know, umbreon will always be at 100% health, and will never have to be worried about spikes. And if you try to switch umbreon in only to get it hit with a choice band v-create, gg umbreon
2) Every single attack you listed has <100% accuracy
Blue flare has nearly 100% accuracy thanks to victory star. It also gets 2 shots on everything thanks to it's speed. And do you really want to rely on victini missing?
3) The only thing that Victini can OHKO w/o rocks (the team does have a spinner after all) is qwilfish and Victini does not appreciate taking any hit from anything here
Victini doesnt have to ohko since its faster then everything on that list (assuming zapdos doesnt run max speed) Victini also can take a hit from hitmontop and can switch in easily on that very same rapid spin that ruins it so much apparently.
4) These calcs assume the Victini user gets every prediction right And your arguments assume the stall player gets every prediction right. Really, victini only has to predict right once or twice to wreck stall.
 
Arguments
I really would rather not dignify this by responding but you have to see why your post makes no sense lest you continue to post in this manner.

1) In the first place, this is a special Victini, not a banded one. If it were, half decent player would switch into slowbro first to see what it's gonna do.
2) 93.5=/=100, nice try, and the other two aforementioned moves have worse accuracy than stone edge, which is pretty damn shitty in my book. Also how does it's speed ensure 2 hit KO's? What? I never said I was relying on Victini missing, I said the Victini user can't rely on Victini hitting.
3) The fact that it can't ohko most things means that most things can stay in against it and hit it back or cripple it with status. You do realize hitmontop gets moves besides rapid spin right? Like sucker punch?
4) Where in my argument did I say that? All a player has to do against victini is switch into slowbro then (at least agaisnt this victini, switch into umbreon). Yes, if stealth rocks are up AND Victini predicts the slowbro switch correctly AND it carries thunder AND thunder hits AND it doesn't get a shitty damage roll, you lose a slowbro, but at that point Victini's probably not getting any more kills as long as umbreon stays around.

This is not to say that Ace doesn't bring up a good point about the power of special victini, but your argument has added absolutely nothing to his and is pretty easy to shoot down.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'M NOT PRO BAN NOR PRO STAY I'M SIMPLY RESPONDING TO POSTS. I should probably just add this to my sig at this point so people don't feel the need to reply in such an aggressive manner.



EDIT: I'm not responding to any more posts about this figurative hyper stall team because this shit is gonna get way off topic and I feel like it's eventually gonna turn into me explaining why this hitmontop should have foresight/ EVs on Zapdos/ other timewasting bullshit
 
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Can you give me an example of a stall team that Victini wrecks? Not that I don't believe you but you might want to be a little more specific due to the fact that there are many different levels of stall ranging from semi-stall to all out hyper stall. If you're talking about hyper stall, I don't think that should be played in the first place, but what is any Victini set going to do against a team like one consisting of Umbreon, Gligar, Slowbro, Hitmontop, Zapdos, Qwilfish? Again, to reiterate, I'm not arguing with you, I just need a specific before I can agree or disagree with you.
Ok moose the mixed victini set with life orb is quite capable of busting down any and every wall in the UU.

4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Sableye: 274-325 (90.13 - 106.9%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 231-274 (58.62 - 69.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Togekiss: 250-294 (66.84 - 78.6%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 416-494 (103.74 - 123.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 211-250 (52.22 - 61.88%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Spiritomb: 181-214 (59.53 - 70.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 229-270 (58.26 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 330-390 (97.63 - 115.38%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hitmontop: 296-351 (97.36 - 115.46%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Wether you want to admit it or not the numbers are staggering. Also, anytime you have to sack a pokemon or have or have something crippled just to take a guess at what set a pokemon might be running I feel you have a serious threat, and even after you figure out what the set is and the set is still a large obstacle to ANY team you have a beast to be reconed with. You honestly do not know or have any remote idea of what the hell this thing is running until you see it let loose at least 2 attacks, and with bare minimum reads and hazards that is all it takes for you victini to wreck shit with victini.


Also just a heads up your hitmontop sucker punch idea it would be great if it wasnt a 3 hitko with a standard spinner set backing it.
 
Ok moose the mixed victini set with life orb is quite capable of busting down any and every wall in the UU.

4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Sableye: 274-325 (90.13 - 106.9%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 231-274 (58.62 - 69.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Togekiss: 250-294 (66.84 - 78.6%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 416-494 (103.74 - 123.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 211-250 (52.22 - 61.88%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Spiritomb: 181-214 (59.53 - 70.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 229-270 (58.26 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 330-390 (97.63 - 115.38%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hitmontop: 296-351 (97.36 - 115.46%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Wether you want to admit it or not the numbers are staggering. Also, anytime you have to sack a pokemon or have or have something crippled just to take a guess at what set a pokemon might be running I feel you have a serious threat, and even after you figure out what the set is and the set is still a large obstacle to ANY team you have a beast to be reconed with. You honestly do not know or have any remote idea of what the hell this thing is running until you see it let loose at least 2 attacks, and with bare minimum reads and hazards that is all it takes for you victini to wreck shit with victini.


Also just a heads up your hitmontop sucker punch idea it would be great if it wasnt a 3 hitko with a standard spinner set backing it.

There we go. This is the most convincing pro-ban argument I've seen so far. To be fair, Victini should probably run psyshock over psychic for snorlax (unless the last move is focus blast idk) but this set is a lot more "ban-able" than any other, at least in my opinion. What's annoying is that no ladder players ever use sets like this so I can't really say it's given me trouble personally but the calcs make it seem like it would.
 
Actually I play on the ladder quite often and I use mixed victini for this very reason except I adjust my spread to a 32/220/252 spread to give V-create a bit more oomf.

i made top 100 recently after about 4-5 days on the ladder using ths guy. The power of victini is nuts man.
 
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Full stall has been a hard thing to pull off for a long time now and I don't think we can use that as a basis to ban Victini. Yes, Vic is good against stall, but would anyone say without a shadow of a doubt that it is THE reason stall is not viable?
 

kokoloko

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No one is saying Victini is the sole reason stall is hard to pull off and no one is saying that is the sole reason it should be banned, it is merely one facet of what makes Victini overpowered, and it is a very valid argument.
 
I haven't personally had much experience with victini in UU or UU at all, but I'm pretty sure it's a diverse threat already
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I'm not sure why froslass was banned, imo it just overcentralizes roserade as *the* UU spiker
Qwilfish too, but eh.
 

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