np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

Pocket

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I've been trying to use a non-SR offensive Azelf, and I'm having a hard time making it work consistently. Anybody with experience mind sharing what sort of moveset, teammates or support you have given Azelf so that it can pull more than its weight?

I've been using NP LO Azelf with mixed success. I feel like I could gain more mileage if I support it properly, because atm it just seems like I slapped Azelf onto a standard team (Crobat, Nidoqueen, Sleep Talk Snorlax, Slowbro, and SR Empoleon), and Azelf needs to work on its own to find a chance to switch in / set up. Maybe I'm just not using Azelf properly? Perhaps I'm not using the right type of team that takes advantage of Azelf the best? Or maybe this pixie isn't really all that cut out to sweep teams? Any advice would be awesome

PS: It came to me that Azelf is more of a wallbreaker than a sweeper, and that the lack of end-game sweeper to take advantage of the hole in the opponent's defense created by Azelf is what making this team feel wonky. Need some confirmation here.
 
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CoolStoryBrobat

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I've been trying to use a non-SR offensive Azelf, and I'm having a hard time making it work consistently. Anybody with experience mind sharing what sort of moveset, teammates or support you have given Azelf so that it can pull more than its weight?

I've been using NP LO Azelf with mixed success. I feel like I could gain more mileage if I support it properly, because atm it just seems like I slapped Azelf onto a standard team (Crobat, Nidoqueen, Sleep Talk Snorlax, Slowbro, and SR Empoleon), and Azelf needs to work on its own to find a chance to switch in / set up. Maybe I'm just not using Azelf properly? Perhaps I'm not using the right type of team that takes advantage of Azelf the best? Or maybe this pixie isn't really all that cut out to sweep teams? Any advice would be awesome
Yeah, my issue with Azelf is he's got Mienshao/Weavile/Zoroark/Glass Cannon syndrome...powerful a hitter as it is, he often offers very minimal synergy to your team and isn't usually gonna switch in without some top-notch prediction. I feel a decent means of supporting it is by utilizing Slow U-Turn/Volt Switch support from something like Gligar or a bulky Rotom or something...As for an Azelf set itself, offensive LO seems to be your best bet...only thing that sucks is Umbreon kinda gets in its face, you could try a mixed set of Psyshock, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, and possibly U-Turn if you haven't already, pair it up with a poke such as Scrafty, Bisharp, Cobalion, etc. To set up on Umbreon and really rack up damage and gain momentum. The immunity to Spikes/T-Spikes gives it a little longevity in the way of consistent switching, but this is pretty much all I could really think of, lol. He's a hard guy to support despite those sick 125/125/115 offensive stats (If you consider Speed to work as an offensive stat).
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
If you're looking for a good offensive azelf that isn't just a wallbreaker, try physical (or special) scarf azelf. It works in a similar fashion to Scarf Raikou, where it picks up surprise kills and damage on things that expect to be faster (Scarf Mienshao, Scarf Victini, Scarf Chandelure, Scarf Flygon, etc...). Due to Azelf's extremely diverse movepool you can sort of customize it to what your team is having trouble with, even putting things like HP Ice on it if you're having trouble with flygon, or perhaps Grass Knot for Rhyperior and Swampert. It can run these moves much more effectively than something like Mienshao because of its awesome uninvested base SpA, as well.

If you're going to run ScarfZelf, I'd recommend pairing it with some serious bulk, as otherwise you're just going to be constantly u-turning and zen headbutting for decent damage and then switching in something to take the hit. You have to play it like a revenge killer, not a sweeper - although it does have late-game sweep potential as well.

In a way, it's sort of like a levitating ScarfTini who loses out on the awesome 180 base stabs and some of the coverage in exchange for vastly superior offensive stats and the ability to withstand hazards, so try it out :P
 

SJCrew

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Eh, surprise factor can only do so much for you. Strength and consistency will serve you better in the long run. The only Azelf I need in my life right now is mixed LO with STAB, FBlast, U-turn, and Explosion. Strong and consistent, expendable when necessary.

NP, imo, just doesn't work. Too easy to revenge kill and not enough Pokemon fear Azelf for him to get the setup or sweep he wants. The best thing he'll do for you as a wallbreaker is blow up on something and give a more dangerous sweeper a free switch-in.
 
Holy fuck, LO 4 attacks Raikou. That thing wrecks so much ass it's not even funny. It tears apart slower teams with it's amazing coverage and power. I'm using T-bolt/Aura Sphere/Extrasensory/HP Grass which provides great coverage. I've been pairing it with Scarf Chand, since Kou can weaken things like Snorlax and Umbreon with Aura Sphere while also luring in Rhy/Pert to get destroyed by HP Grass allowing Chand to clean up. Kou is just a really amazing poke right now. With the Sub CM set, I tend to run 128 hp/128 def/252 spe so that I can not have my subs broken by a single Umby Foul Play allowing me to set up in its face.
 

pokeisfun

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Wasn't there an old Sub CM Raikou set onsite that got taken down? I remember it having enough defense to survive U-Turns from Flygon and maybe something else I really liked it but I don't know what it is anymore since it was taken down a while ago. If anyone would like to tell me what set that is please!

I think 4 attack Raikou might be a little too slow but I dunno maybe not not quite sure what you would miss beating except for Mienshao but even then they run scarf a lot. Sounds nice but I never used or faced it I think so I dunno.

Azelf is such a strong SR user in my opinion because it messes up the spinners + Xatu so badly with Thunderbolt and Psychic and Explosion and Uturn I always used it as a SR user. I think Azelf is more of a supporter because it has lots of utility and definitely not a sweeper just because I have never seen it really sweep anything before.

Anyone use sub Nidoking? I kind of like it with Superpower and Earthpower and Blizzard because hail. It does a pretty good job of luring in its counters (Umbreon and Snorlax and P2) and doing big damage after Earthpower and Superpower which is helped out by hail. Also has very good tactical chances in beating Honchkrow because nobody expects sub. Walled by things it really shouldnt be sometimes though like Slowbro and Bronzong which is a little annoying.

on another note I have a rating of just over 2500 after 40 battles...but still have 135 deviation................anyone know how to lower my deviation? i have almost tried intentionally losing but my ego was way too big for that but then i really legit lost 2 games in a row which dropped me about 250 points from 2750 or so to under 2500 but that did almost nothing for my deviation....seriously this is lame why must reqs be so hard :c I am losing about 1 deviation per battle which means at least 70 or 80 more games which is way too much effort.
 
Bulky Sub CM isn't as good on the ladder because it's really over prepared for on the ladder. Still, being able to set up on something that's supposed to beat it, with great bulk, is a huge boon. I think the original was 128 hp/76spa/56sp.d/252 spe if I remember correctly, but that was mostly so that most Scalds don't break the sub before you CM.

Rash Raikou has enough speed to outspeed base 100's which is a pretty substantial amount of the metagame, while retaining 360 special attack (with Hidden Power Grass). The main things you'll lose to speed wise are speed ties with Azelf and Raikou and Mienshao. Mienshao is usually scarfed recently, and every team needs a decent Shao check anyway. Also, Aura Sphere is WAY underused. With LO, you're doing around 40% to standard Umbreon, meaning with prior damage or shit loads of hazards, you're gonna snap his shit up. Also, I think Aura Sphere 2HKO's CB Lax with Hazards

That Sub Nidoking looks dope.

Has anyone else noticed Heatproof Bronzongs lately? They've been PISSEN ME OFF
 
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Snaquaza

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Any reason the Suspect ladder stopped earlier today already? I was 4/6 games away from req, which I was planning to do today as I had really no time left yesterday, but I couldn't because the Suspect ladder was already gone.

Edit: Never mind, it was gone for me at another computer
 
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Any reason the Suspect ladder stopped earlier today already? I was 4/6 games away from req, which I was planning to do today as I had really no time left yesterday, but I couldn't because the Suspect ladder was already gone.
It's still there, at least for me. Right now I can't search for a regular UU battle, only suspect.
 
Any reason the Suspect ladder stopped earlier today already? I was 4/6 games away from req, which I was planning to do today as I had really no time left yesterday, but I couldn't because the Suspect ladder was already gone.

Edit: Never mind, it was gone for me at another computer
No, I think kokoloko restored it. He told Joim to close it earlier accidentally and now it's fixed. Get your reqs early c:
 

Bughouse

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Yeah I have +/- 38 on my main lol at 2020-2030ish perpetually. Got a battle or two away from reqs several times in there. Finally gave in and started over. Gotta go fast now.

edit: looks like I'm gonna have to get reqs on main uu and hope a special application for that main goes through.
 
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if i had the reqs to do it, but i lost some points by losing a mathc, can I be selected for the suspect with the proof of a screenshot) ?
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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Yeah I have +/- 38 on my main lol at 2020-2030ish perpetually. Got a battle or two away from reqs several times in there. Finally gave in and started over. Gotta go fast now.

edit: looks like I'm gonna have to get reqs on main uu and hope a special application for that main goes through.
Story of my life, man...I peaked at 2038 +- 40-something, then lost a couple games...now I'm rocking 2016 and I just said "screw it". Even if it doesn't count, least I know I tried, haha
 

kokoloko

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The new ladder (UU current) should be going up in about a minute. Remember, you must acquire a Glicko2 rating of 2050 with a deviation of at most 65 on this ladder, and you must do so by October 6th at 11:59 PM GMT -4. Screenshots for the suspect ladder were taken about 9 hours after the time I originally said to make up for the time the ladder was down when it wasn't supposed to be.

The Alt Identification Thread will go up after the deadline for UU current.

i also smell
 
Awesome. I'll begin laddering again Monday. From my experiance in the metagame, I feel that Victini is extremely threatening (and probably broken) on paper. However, in a real game situation, it just doesn't cause me enough trouble for me to want to ban it. If I had to vote right now, I'd probably vote not to ban Victini, but I'll give my final verdict at the end of the suspect round.

Good luck everyone
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
ALright, it's about time I responded to this (again) with my final argument, after being on the fence, I now finally have come up with my final standing: Victini is broken .

Now before you scream "obv idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about" let me explain.
Alright, when you see Victini/Raikou/filler/filler/filler/filler (filleri s nto really filler, I just can't come up with a decent team example because no matter what I say people are going to scream it's not a regular raikou + vic team) on the ladder, what are you most threatend of?
That's right, you probably said Raikou, if so:
When your scared of playing around raikou, you obviously must have something that can mildly check it, so you assume your fine, THEN the person eventually gets victini a free switch in, Victini now gains momentum with uturn(safest move to spam imo) alright, now you THINK you know the victini set, FAST FORWARD SOME AMOUNT OF TURNS LATER, victini is in again, and you know what set it is, turns out, your in a situation where your best victini switch in is rhyperior, and you think it's banded? What do you have to lose? so you switch it in, victini vcreates and is Life Orb, then you start doubting your assurity of it being banded, then the thoughts come that it is MixTini, now your in a situation where victini is either having the chance to kill you off with grass knot, or they are pure physical so they uturn to raikou on your switch out from rhyperior both of those are very threatening where your raikou check is either dying , or raikou gets a free switch in and the opponent can gain momentum with respectable level prediction.

Alright turns out you decide to stay in because, mixtini just happens to be low this month on usage, then BAM! grass knot. Now what are you thinking now? Oh shit my Victini check just died, but what actually happend? Your Raikou check/counter just died. BUT your focused on victini, since it is in at the moment, so you switch in a bulky water like suicune, then subCM raikou gets a free switch in and you know realize what the fuck that victini did to your team.

This my friends, is known as the Victini effect. You see? Now that you were worried about Victini, Raikou was the one that really swept your team.

Now this leads me onto my point: Victini is broken as an extreme offensive sweeper support. This might not make much sense, but think about it, You had a Specially Defensive Rhyperior, Raikou should not be able to destroy your team that easily, but then you see Victini was the mischievous bastard behind all of it. Victini was the one that caused the raikou sweep, victini is what caused your team to have a GAPING Raikou weakness.

I mean seriously, Victini was the reason Raikou swept you, Victini is not sweeping you, it lets bazaar and standard shit sweep you to no tomorrow.

The reason most of the arguments here aren't going anywhere is because your not realizing WHY Victini is broken: Of course Victini has no safe switch ins for fucks sake it's a WALL BREAKER. That being said, The reason why Victini is broken (at least imo) is because: It beats so much playstyles so easily just by running a certain set 'But it can't run all of it's sets :repeat argument here:" - Most non banners here. So what? It only needs to run a set that supports the main sweeper of your team well. Of course I can't run all my sets at once? Why would I need to? I only need one set to basically invalidate the counters of my sweeper? The reason why it beats so much playstyles, is because it's a amazing wall breaker that can let ANY UU sweeper do it's job WAY too well.

So anyway's that's my pro-Vic ban argument, remember to tag me if you have a response to this (or quote it) so I can get an alert/notification :]
I personally think people need to re-see this, mainly because it shows victini for what it truly is: a sweeper support and a wall breaker, ofc victini isn't "broken on play" because it isn't going to "sweep", of course it's not going to sweep, it's not a damn sweepers, also

"The reason most of the arguments here aren't going anywhere is because your not realizing WHY Victini is broken: Of course Victini has no safe switch ins for fucks sake it's a WALL BREAKER."

edit: sorry if this post seemed a bit, well, self mastrabatory
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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edit: sorry if this post seemed a bit, well, self mastrabatory
Put the lotion away, brah. No, jk. But on a more serious note in general I've been kinda holding back on my opinion of Victini...and to an extent I'm still kinda reserved on it, mostly neutral. Imo the most ridiculous set to me has always been the Choice Band set, because as you stated, the excellent wallbreaking potential it has to spam a team to death with one move. But at the same time, as for the other sets, literally..just assume Victini has Grass Knot. Rock with me here for a minute. Just play as if you're expecting Victini to carry Grass Knot (If it's not the CB set, it most likely does carry the move...Otherwise, one would be shaking their head.) and just suddenly realize all those times you let your Rhyperior die were times you could have gotten around it a bit. Far as scouting the set out goes, I guess I can apply some personal experience. Like people say Slowbro's a weak switch-in to the Banded set because CB Bolt Strike can 2HKO the poor guy. See the thing is, even if the guy was actually using a mixed set with Charcoal/Expert Belt or something and you switched it in on Bolt Strike, the damage output itself is enough to tell you what you're dealing with here.

So following this scenario, you realize this douche is 2HKO'ing your Slowbro with Bolt Strike, doing no less than 61% to you. Okay, he's banded. Time to switch into my Ground-type/Electric resist and seize the momentum, while giving Slowbro some Regenerator health to come back in later on this thing! And now I know he's Choice Banded, even if he was "that guy" who ran Grass Knot for the maximum surprise factor, Rhyperior/Swampert (Believe it or not, Swampert actually takes this better) could survive it and do whatever afterward, so long as I'm not switching directly in. Basically Band Victin's big issue is that if any of its actual checks that get decimated by Grass Knot are on the opponent's team, in general it's gonna be relying on its teammates to remove it before it can actually get to the fun part of carelessly spamming V-Create. And then you gotta watch your U-Turn intake, as Stealth Rock can add up quite a bit. Not gonna factor that in here because offensive pressure can sometimes guarantee no hazards for a decent period of a match, but it's still pretty important to note.

Other issue is that every time Band Victini gets a kill, he's gotta switch out. V-Create makes you susceptible to being revenge killed significantly easily, and even a single misprediction can give away your set and make it that much harder to effectively maintain its effect against your opponent. See, offensive pressure can work two ways here. But once again bear in mind, this is all hypothetical, and I'm just kinda highlighting some of the flaws of this set.

As for the mixed set with Expert Belt/Charcoal, you're kinda shut down by Snorlax, Umbreon, and Porygon2, the big special walls of the tier. Obviously cause of the lack of knowledge to which set you could be using, this set can get some surprises on the opponent. But those Pokemon still take pittance from this set's output, even if you run Focus Blast...For example, Lefties Snorlax is only 3HKO'd, meaning it doesn't even care if you nail it on the switch; you just gave it several reasons to use Pursuit against you, regardless of what you do. Umbreon has less than a 2% chance of being 2HKO'd by V-Create if you only run 4 Atk and a +Speed nature...And provided you manage to pull that off, a simple Protect can put it out of 2HKO range, with the low output now revealing "Hey this guy's not banded, Umbreon's got nothing to worry about".

And there's still general ways to keep Victini in check such as Pursuit/Sucker Punch, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Aqua Jet, Sleep/Paralysis, etc. etc. And once again what all I'm saying is still hypothetical. You may not have the Pokemon I mentioned here to ease the difficulty of dealing with Victini, or the situation may play differently. Or the Victini gets a crit on you and your game plan goes out the window. Or maybe your opponent is a super genius capable of reading your mind and utilizing clever double switches and going for the unexpected play to catch you off-guard and make you want to ban this thing with all your might. Whatever it may be, just focus on what I'm trying to emphasize with all these paragraphs:

tl;dr, Victini is still able to be kept in check, and the two main sets it uses can be scouted based on their damage output from the initial jump; by using a bit of caution and expecting the "unexpected" Grass Knot, one should be able to prepare for Victini a bit more effectively and thus deal with it as such. Overall I'm still neutral on the thing in general. The Choice Band set is a pain to switch into and the scenario and weaknesses I described above don't take away from that. Just some food for thought...
 

pokeisfun

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majaspic22, koko said he would post them later with the list for those with current ladder reqs so I think you should wait until then (although if you made reqs you really should know).

Nobody seems to be using this thread for anything so I hope you will let me try to convince you that Victini should be banned especially as I think more and more people are siding on the no ban side right now.

This battle really highlights why I think Victini should be banned. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uucurrent-52881217

Nothing is really too weird in the game early on except maybe my Shedinja. Aerial Ace is almost to be expected on their team seeing how weak they are too Heracross and even SD Heracross. Rocky Helmet Blastoise is probably bad but I candefinitely see its justification since Blastoise has to deal with Physical fires a lot and they kind of have a back up in Kingdra. By turn 12 the position looked rather nice for me but not game breaking since I got a lucky Roar and made him go to Victini with my own Blastoise. Thats what I thought when I got promptly hacked to pieces by what must have been a CB Adamant Bolt Strike since my Blastoise was running absolutely max physical defense and Jolly Victini can only do 83.42% max.

Goodness what was I supposed to do in a situation like this?

Would you say it would have been sensible to go to Shedinja which usually walls 3/4 of Victini's moves? I really do not know since it seemed extremely unlikely Victini would use V-Create on a Blastoise I was actually expecting a double switch on this turn to Umbreon. As I would likely use Scald Umbreon could easily absorb the move and even bounce a painful burn back at me. In any case my Choice was still scald thinking in the worse case scenario I could gain some time by going to Darmanitan as they healed their burn and then work from there. I am Umbreon weak. All this planning comes to nothing as I get straight up KOd. What prediction did my opponent have to make? It was obvious I wanted to stay in and not waste time potentially by going to Shedinja because Blastoise is supposed to be an OK counter to Victini in most situations. I have the luxury of being at high health and not needing to switch in so surely, surely if we are in a one vs one match up I must win.

Its not just that Victini got a kill though it really shattered my position and made me immediately losing as I lost my spinner on a Shedinja team which is bad bad bad as well as losing my main Gligar counter and Kingdra response. Not to mention the fact Victini was still alive and breathing down my neck - every time it got a free switch in it would instantly KO one of my Pokemon with V-Create no questions asked. The situation is not just bad for me I would say it is completely losing.

My opponent made bad plays right afterwards and I got a lucky crit which saved the game for me. I am not going to tip toe around how my opponent played because frankly I think it was near awful. They should never have left Victini (which at this point is obviously CB) on Darmanitan especially as they know they are Adamant and have little hope of outspeeding me. They then wasted Gligar by letting it take Azelf's Fire Blast instead of sensibly going to Umbreon or even Blastoise (Gligar by itself would almost completely wall my team). They wasted Victini and actually got lucky with the Fire Blast miss which gave them an extra KO but they could have just so easily spun my SR which I would have little chance to replace and then given their Victini free reign.

At this point I would heavily favor my opponent still but I dont think they are necessarily immediately winning anymore.

Then later they asininely waste Venemoth for no reason and make a ludicrous switch to Kingdra which is where I get my lucky HP crit to prevent any chance of a DD sweep.

They nearly win still if Zapdos was asleep for one my turn then surely I would have lost but no I wake up in time to stall them out and somehow win a completely lost position.

But that matters little. Did you see how on turn 12 I went from what looked light a slight advantage to me to a completely lost position for me. And Victini did it almost solely by itself with no major prediction necessary.

Moments like these make me think Victini is broken.
 

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