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Most of the things you'd try to burn with Wisp, Golurk can already deal with just by punching their faces in. Iron Fist-boosted Ice Punch or Thunderpunch suffice in most situations where Wisp would save you from a Fighting-resistant poke (not that you should be SubPunching with Golurk since it has better things to do). If they dodge the Will-o-Wisp and set up Sub, there is little to nothing Dusknoir can do about it. They also must resist Focus Punch and have some decent bulk (tentacruel).
1: Its neutrailty to Water does little for it considering most Water attacks it encounters are too strong for it to face since they are boosted by Rain, most of the Water types don't even care about Dusknoir anyway. If there is no Rain there is most likely Sand, which Golurk does not care about while Dusknoir cannot gain HP made from Subs. The lack of Grass weakness is a bit more relevant since Bullet Seed Breloom and Ferrothorn do exist, but isn't a outright resist much better? I'd rather try Breloom or Toxicroak, both of which even have 12% per turn recovery. 2: Its worse bulk is compensated by additional resistances (where the bulk would matter more) and greater offensive power. After all, isn't the point of a SubPuncher is to punish foes with "free" damage? You're acting like each and every single team uses weather. Only 45% or something of all teams used weather in july. And Breloom and Toxicroak don't have access to will-o-wisp. Starmie is 2hkoed by shadow sneak. The only water-types that really don't care about Dusknoir are Jellicent and Tentacruel.
Who cares about typing, what are you even trying to accomplish with Dusknoir? Kill Fighting-weak pokes? Then the Fighters are obviously better due to STAB, not to mention they aren't stuck with a piss weak 40 base power STAB to back up Focus Punch. Landorus-T can overcome Will-o-Wisp with Swords Dance while you do nothing in return; if Gyara isn't hit on the switch (which may not be easily telegraphed), Dusknoir has to get out of there and lose momentum for you. Many Fighting-weak Pokemon have no means of doing anything to Dusknoir (like ferrothorn, who's burned by will-o-wisp and can't do CRAP to Dusk if it has Gyro Ball). Swords Dance Lando-T isn't that common anyway, and Gyara's Sub is broken by Focus Punch unless it has intimidate.
Wait, now you claim Focus Punch is your coverage move?? So your main method to fight back is Shadow Sneak? By the looks of it, Dusknoir is almost completely dependant on unSTABed Focus Punch (lol) to do competent damage against neutral foes, while other SubPunchers can resort to their possible alternate STAB. We're not understimating Dusknoir's strength: 100 base Attack using an unSTABed 150 base power move is really unimpressive when you compare it to walls like Ferrothorn's 94 base Attack using 120 base power STAB Power Whip, or Hippowdon's 112 base Attack using 100 base power STAB Earthquake. If you can't hit harder than that with your main offensive move, you know your power is really subpar for an offensive poke. Hippowdon is heavily crippled by Will-o-Wisp. And yes, Dusknoir can't really do much to things that do resist Focus Punch, which is why I nominated it for D rank, not S or A+.
You need to setup Sub on Ferro, which will easily break it with Power Whip, while going for Wisp means risking either Thunder Wave and/or Leech Seed. And another thing, Dusclops isn't really meant for taking on special attackers, but it can still attempt to outstall Latios with Pain Split after Draco Meteor. Dusknoir on the other hand, takes 89.79 - 106.12% (37.5% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after SR) from Specs Draco Metoer, so....have fun. Not if I simply use Substitute as your ferrothorn uses Leech Seed, and then burn your Ferrothorn. Also, not very many things can take a Choice Specs Draco Meteor even without Stealth Rock, and Dusknoir's just going to switch in after it has already used Draco Meteor OR if it decides to use something like hidden power fire.
Dusclops can use Curse (which at least combos well with Pain Split) to deter setup, and the Volcarona example is poor considering you could get burned by Flame Body, can't Focus Punch again after it breaks your Sub, and loses to Roost variants anyway. The Magic Bouncers and Azelf are rare in OU, better examples would be Taunt Terrakion and Gyarados, the former of which you actually lose to if you fail to set up a Substitute. Taunt Terrakion is very rare, and with proper prediction it loses to Dusk. I do agree that Taunt Gyara beats Dusknoir, however.
Also, you know that the definition of D rank says: "Pokemon who have a small niche in OU, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time." This is the perfect place for Dusknoir. It is outclassed as a defensive spinblocker, but not as a subpuncher.
To the post above, I agree with raikou for C rank. It has a lot of perks over Jolteon. For example, there's aura sphere to get past tyranitar but that conflicts with the fact that you have to run a rash nature. Raikou also has calm mind to attempt a late-game sweep after scarf landorus-t and hippowdon have been taken care of.
The thing with Raikou is that it only gets access to its better movepool (Weather Ball and Aura Sphere) if it runs a Rash nature. While this is just barely enough to beat out base 100s, not outspeeding stuff like Starmie, Tornadus, Gengar and Garchomp are not good things for Raikou. Even then, choosing Rash still leaves you weaker and slower than Thundurus-T; choosing Timid would mean Jolteon gives you stiff competition for its ability to outrun Dugtrio, Alakazam and Scarf Tyranitar (admittedly uncommon), and knows Baton Pass to escape Pursuit and Dugtrio. There isn't much Raikou can do to seperate itself from these 2 Electrics, Jolteon even being C-Rank itself.
even being forced to run a rash nature for certain moves, that's still something jolteon can't do and therefore, gives Raikou a superior movepool. The 15 base speed is the only superior quality Jolteon has over Raikou and while I'm not saying it isn't a big one, the extra bulk and versality is enough to give reason for it to be ranked along with Jolteon. edit: also Rash still is +special attack
BarrelRoll, Dusclops is pretty outclassed as a SubPuncher, let's be honest. It's facing down competition from Breloom, who is infinitely more utilitarian, and Conkeldurr, who is infinitely more powerful.
Running Event Raikou is how I would see it be most viable. I don't know if we've got all the intricacies figured out yet on PS! (must be Rash/Shiny in order to run Aura Sphere and Weather Ball, because every Raikou I come across is decidedly not shiny), but the coverage Raikou offers is a bitch to take on, even accounting Thundurus-T's superior power and Jolteon's superior speed. In both cases, Aura Sphere and Weather Ball are such huge boons that maybe C is a good place for Raikou.
How? I've already explained that Dusknoir has its advantages over golurk as a subpuncher: its better bulk and the fact that it isn't weak to water, ice or grass, and only 20% of all teams use rain. On paper it might look like golurk is a much better user of focus punch thanks to its higher attack stat, but tbh it can't set up the substitute as easily as dusknoir.
And Will-o-wisp is also an utility move and can help silence Terrakion and other hard-hitting physical attackers, which is what dusk has over breloom and conkeldurr. If Dusknoir didn't have will-o-wisp it'd be complete garbage just like Dusclops.
DAMN I accidentally double posted and cannot find the delete button. Fuck.
BarrelRoll, Dusclops is pretty outclassed as a SubPuncher, let's be honest. It's facing down competition from Breloom, who is infinitely more utilitarian, and Conkeldurr, who is infinitely more powerful.
I've already explained that Dusknoir has its advantages over golurk as a subpuncher: its better bulk and the fact that it isn't weak to water, ice or grass, and only 20% of all teams use rain. On paper it might look like golurk is a much better user of focus punch thanks to its higher attack stat, but tbh it can't set up the substitute as easily as dusknoir.
And Will-o-wisp is also an utility move and can help silence Terrakion and other hard-hitting physical attackers, which is what dusk has over breloom and conkeldurr. If Dusknoir didn't have will-o-wisp it'd be complete garbage just like Dusclops.
@DoABarrelRoll I compared Dusknoir with Ferro and Hippowdon in terms of power, not against each other.
SubPunch alone isn't really a niche, it's not even something that only Dusknoir can do while others can't. Am I going to nominate Rampardos because it can at worst 2HKO damn near everything with Choice Band and some prediction? No, because it has numerous flaws that hinder the one thing it is good at.
What I see in Dusknoir is unSTABed SubPunch, highly situational priority (that is outclassed by Toxicroak's Sucker Punch which is safe to use behind a Sub), and Will-o-Wisp <- the only appealing thing about Dusknoir that other pokemon already have access to.
What I see in Golurk is more than a SubPuncher: it can still use Substitute but actually hurt stuff without necessarily being behind the Sub (prime examples being Terrakion and Heatran), it has high power coverage moves that complement its main attacks very well, and it may even try Rock Polish if you want to go that far. You said its weaknesses means it is an inferior SubPuncher altogether, why do you not acknowledge its resistance to Rock-type moves and Electric immunity as other possible setup opportunities?
It's not like Dusknoir gets that many chances to setup and....do what exactly? Burn stuff? Focus Punch things and watch them not die in one hit? What Water-types can Dusknoir actually beat one-on-one if it can setup on them? If you claim Golurk to be inferior against Grass-types, why are you using Dusknoir over it instead of some other SubPuncher or Sub-booster in general? Its Ice matchup is shaky at best considering Weavile murders it (can't set up Sub due to low HP), Mamoswine and Cloyster can Icicle Spear those Subs away (you can Wisp, but why not use Jellicent who can also Scald Mamo to KO and resist Cloyster, then heal to survive another day?), both Kyurem either survive Focus Punch or interrupt it anyway to due to knocking you down to low range. You have to ask yourself, why are you using this?
Edit: Oh and don't claim about having Substitute up already because not only is it difficult to setup against other things, but I can easily apply that same argument for Golurk who can actually kill these things.
Dusknoir doesn't even have an OU analysis, let alone a UU one. Even DUSCLOPS doesn't have an OU analysis, and that's saying something considering the arguments about it here. I don't see why we have to discuss its placement any further when people can casually justify using all the D-rank Pokemon, all of which already have or are in the process of getting a fairly up-to-date OU analysis. There is no answer to the "why."
And I'm quite surprised Raikou hasn't been included. At beast it's a low B, but fits perfectly in C, since it's powerful and fast enough to differentiate itself from Thundurus-T (damn that Stealth Rock and Ice Shard weakness).
Raikou is definitely C Rank. Rash Nature misses out on a lot of threats, like Thundurus-T and Keldeo, but it is enough to beat Jirachi, which is a huge boon. And Raikou's higher bulk, access to Weather Ball, Aura Sphere, and Calm Mind are definitely worth it for some teams.
Crap, I had a whole response written up right before PK posted...
On another note, I'd like to support Raikou for C rank. It does have competition with Jolteon and Thundurus-T, sure, but it does have perks. The way I see it, there are two basic ways to play with Raikou: with event moves and without.
With event moves, Raikou definitely distances itself from Jolteon. Rash Raikou is a good bit stronger than Timid Jolteon, and Aura Sphere/Weather Ball for coverage is a lot better than anything Jolteon can offer. Its main competition in this case is actually Thundurus-T, who is still a stronger and faster offensive Electric-type than Raikou with a Timid Nature. Raikou does still have some advantages, though. Aura Sphere is a lot more reliable than Focus Blast, Weather Ball is more powerful than any Hidden Power type, and Raikou's 90/75/100 bulk is far better than Thundurus-T's 79/70/80 bulk (not to mention no SR weakness).
Using Raikou without event moves still works as well, particularly with the SubCM set. Besides the aforementioned bulk and lack of a SR weakness, this version of Raikou distances itself from Thundurus-T by taking full advantage of its excellent speed stat. Being able to outspeed Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo, Gengar, Latios, Latias, Espeon, Infernape, and Thundurus-T itself while threatening Starmie with the speed tie is a great thing to boast. Even though it now has less of a power differences over Jolteon and lacks the extra coverage moves, it still differentiates itself with the extra bulk and the ability to boost up with Calm Mind, which Jolteon cannot do.
All in all, Raikou is a decent Pokemon in its own right, and it's able to carve a niche apart from Jolteon and Thundurus-T enough to warrant usage. I think an argument could be made for higher, but C-Rank is a pretty good spot for now.
Also what happened to the Cobalion for B- nomination? It got buried by the Dusk stuff but had quite a bit of support prior to the dusk stuff so what do you guys think?
Update
Gastrodon up from B- rank ==> B rank
Haxorus up from B- rank ==> B rank
Raikou added to C rank
Cobalion up from C rank ==> B- rank
About Haxorus:
Haxorus is actually pretty decent in the current OU metagame. Much of the new findings for Haxorus have revolved around Choice Band sets and their ability to fuck over sash Breloom (who i'm convinced is getting more annoying by the day). Swords Dance / Double Dance sets are still decent, and even though it's still outsped by Scarf Keldeo it's still a decent dancer since it's not as vulnerable to priority. It's still the only physical dragon with Taunt, which means it doesn't have to fuck around with certain walls. This post might lead some people to think that Haxorus is a good, but I still feel likeit's mostly outdone by the other dragons (not outclassed), but it's decent enough for B-tier.
Except using Rash Nature on Raikou is a terrible idea
The only reason to use rash with the event moves is if you're using Raikou on a weather team for weather ball
Other than that Timid Nature with Tbolt/HP Ice/Signal Beam pretty much does the same job considering CM makes all the difference in Raikou anyways
I mean yeah I guess if you're paranoid about Ferrothorn stopping Raikou then there's Aura Sphere/Fire type Weather ball
Seriously go try him with Timid instead, he's easily B- Rank with that instead considering he can outspeed much more
Latias is easily on of the BEST pokemon in the current metagame, handling so much play styles and pokemon yet being so offensively threatening. Latias is an easy answer to pokemon such as *MOST* Keldeo, 90% of Thundurus-T (I srsly want to slap anybody who uses Physically Oriented Uturn Thundy ;-; ), Poli (defensive and scarf can be handled by any latias really, and specs can be handled by sdef wall latias or fast CM latias), Jolteon (p. bad in the metagame right now just imo but it counts), Ninetales (all), Heatran, Venusaur (AFTER IT SLEEPS SOMETHING), etc. and can just all threaten some back in one way or another (surf for heatran, psyshock keldeo and venusaur , etc).
Not only that but Latias is one of THE best rain checks in the game, with an excellent amount of resistances to common rain moves, and the outright mega-bulk to take a safe amount of damage Ice Beams and other moves commonly seen on rain. Also able to properly check and counter individual rain threats, like starmie, keldeo etc. Not only that but it's an amazing sun check as well, only fearing Volcarona and sleep, able to tank flamethrowers, fire blasts, leaf storms, giga drains etc. Even able to support these two weathers by beating things like Heatran for sun (just run Surf, heatran can't touch you other than Specs HP Bug/Ice while your 2HKOing anything not named Sdef tran anyway, especially considering you can subCM/refresh CM in it's face too), Starmie and Jellicent for rain etc. especially since it synergieses so well with weather threats because of the large amount of things it can check and counter in the metagame, and it's not bad at all offensive presance. (110 in a meta where most things are not that bulky bar rain stall is pretty damn great, especially with a great offensive type like dragon). That and it's reliable recovery makes it insane to take down (except specs ofc LOL).
Now looking at the official definition of S rank, that seems already like a decent or good fit: "S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank."
Hm, l already mentioned how much it can wall the meta above, that and it's got solid recovery, oh and that was not even mentioning what it can do with support, so yeah it doesn't even need support. Latias honestly doesn't need very much free turns, for SubCM people argue that it takes time and a lot of free turns, however, why would you need free turns when your +1 +1 behind a sub? just smash them with STAB or keep on boosting, it's that simple, not only that but it's creating free turns by itself to recover by CMing, letting it have the bulk to sit on it's bulky ass and spam recover and dragon pulse/psyshock (depending on which STAB you run, I like Dpulse personally).
And on to the next point, Latias is easily one of the most versatile *GREAT* pokes there is in OU (most things as or more versatile are not that viable) , From sets running to Bulky CM, standard CM, Specs & Life Orb offensive, Wall sets, SubRecover/SubRoost, Dual Screens, SubCM, Refresh CM (which surprisingly is handled a decent bit differently than SubCM), Toxic Stall, Sub Attacker ETC. The mian thing is that you see it as SubCM or specs, letting you easily misplay around any other set (trying to get a faster status user against what you think is SubCM, but infact is Refresh CM and just opened up free turns to CM and Refresh) that and the fact that latias can be one of the hardest things to risk misplaying against due to what terror it can cause to your team (switching in ferro on LO HP Fire then Latias gets a free draco shot against one thing in your entire team), this making it SO hard to play against in some cases.
Not only that but Latias runs lure sets effectively, such as dual screening VS ttar and just locking ttar into pursuit letting you set up your light screen next (reflect is obv before pursuit) then healing wish after etc., Letting latias fill a certain roll while playing around usual answers, for one instance My recently discovered Specs HP FIghting latias that 2HKOs TTar, most ferro and heatran:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Ferrothorn: 180-212 (51.13 - 60.22%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO (I've been seeing WAY too much CB ferro usage on the ladder)
-------
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 272-324 (70.46 - 83.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.41%) -- 56.64% chance to 2HKO
--------
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 192-226 (49.87 - 58.7%) -- 68.36% chance to 2HKO (sdef tran, usually used for weatherless so surf is better to use)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 194-230 (55.27 - 65.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (scarf tran)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 192-228 (59.44 - 70.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (basically every other tran)
My point is that Latias is a versatile, amazing, hard hitting, fast, bulky pokemon that is defiantly fit with S rank descriptions and again I must say, Latias for S ~~
if anybody wants to point out why not use latios and why should latios not be S as well, just quote this and ask and we can discuss :].
I think you're making very bold claims for Latias. You state that it checks Starmie and Keldeo, which is just plain wrong. I'll give you Keldeo, but not Starmie.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 179-213 (49.17 - 58.51%) -- 65.23% chance to 2HKO (and Starmie out speeds)
It's also pretty easy to take down, as it's counters are extremely high in usage (but I'll get to this later). Saying Latias doesn't need support is ridiculous. How do you plan on getting past Scizor, Jirachi, and Tyranitar without any support? Also the sets you listed are non existent, and there's no point in listing them (Toxic Stall? Really?). The only common sets in this metagame are LO Tank, and Sub CM. Latias is not versatile. That's like saying Blissey is versatile because it can run CM, which is just kinda stupid. Latias being able to get past Ferrothorn or Tyranitar with gimmicky sets doesn't mean anything. Specs Gyarados can get past Ferrothorn. Yeah it might work once, but it's a terrible set.
Latias is just too easily walled and trapped by common Pokemon. Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Scizor easily beat it. While yes you can argue that it can carry Reflect type or HP fire or whatever, but in a real sceniro, the Scizor / Jirachi / Tyranitar player usually sends their Pokemon in after Latias has switched in. But before that, Latias has already revealed it's set, depending on how much it took from recoil or how the player played it.
I know this might be getting a bit complicated, but let's look at Latias in a real battle situation.
Latios switches into Keldeo's Secret Sword
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 76-90 (25.16 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 76-90 (20.87 - 24.72%) -- possible 6HKO
Factor in Leftovers and it's easy to tell which set is which (I only posted these two sets since they're the most common). For LO Tank, Tyranitar and Jirachi easily switch in. Tyranitar easily traps it, and it's gone for the rest of the game. For CM Latias, Scizor also adds to that list.
All in all, it just isn't no where near S rank. It's predictable, easily countered, and Pursuit bait.
I think you're making very bold claims for Latias. You state that it checks Starmie and Keldeo, which is just plain wrong. I'll give you Keldeo, but not Starmie.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 179-213 (49.17 - 58.51%) -- 65.23% chance to 2HKO (and Starmie out speeds)
It's also pretty easy to take down, as it's counters are extremely high in usage (but I'll get to this later). Saying Latias doesn't need support is ridiculous. How do you plan on getting past Scizor, Jirachi, and Ttyranitar without any support? Also the sets you listed are non existent, and there's no point in listing them (Toxic Stall? Really?). The only common sets in this metagame are LO Tank, and Sub CM. Latias is not versatile. That's like saying Blissey is versatile because it can run CM, which is just kinda stupid. Latias being able to get past Ferrothorn or Tyranitar with gimmicky sets doesn't mean anything. Specs Gyarados to get past Ferrothorn. Yeah it might work once, but it's a terrible set.
Latias is just too easily walled and trapped by common Pokemon. Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Scizor easily beat it. While yes you can argue that it can carry Reflect type or HP fire or whatever, but in a real sceniro, the Scizor / Jirachi / Tyranitar player usually sends their Pokemon in after Latias has switched in. But before that, Latias has already revealed it's set, depending on how much it took from recoil or how the player played it.
I know this might be getting a bit complicated, but let's look at Latias in a real battle situation.
Latios switches into Keldeo's Secret Sword
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 76-90 (25.16 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 76-90 (20.87 - 24.72%) -- possible 6HKO
Factor in Leftovers and it's easy to tell which set is which (I only posted these two sets since they're the most common).From this, it's counters easily come on. LO Latias is easily trapped by Tyranitar and walled by Jirachi. CM Latias is easily trapped by Scizor and walled by Jirachi.
All in all, it just isn't no where near S rank. It's predictable, easily countered, and Pursuit bait.
The fact is that it has a way around each of it's counters that is viable, also HP Fighting isn't gimmcky as you call it, the simple fact is that your 2HKOing the least pressured switch in to Latias, Tyranitar, while handeling both Ferro and Heatran in any weather (assuming someone isn't running sdef tran in sun (as a experienced sun player, I can say that's bad, you stacking a duggy weakness on top of ninetales and heatran doesn't exactly do much for most sun teams where you could be running something else but that's another tidbit)) The simpel fact is that, it's not a gimmick at all, your 2HKOing your foes only switchins to Specs Draco Meteor, the fear isn't HP fighting itself, it's letting your ttar get 2HKOed by the next HP fighting coming your way and then basically letting latias spamming draco meteor + switching (where as if you didn't let ttar die to HP fighting you could have trapped it once it dropped itself to -2 with DM) become a win condition for your foe, nothing that otuspeeds latias on your team is likely both OHKOing it and switching into specs DM.
I mentioned all those sets because Latias runs them effectively, toxic stalling isn't good per-se in this meta, but latias does certainly run it better than most things you'll find out there, do to it's typing and bulk.
Also So basically, Latias switched in to secret sword and you know that it's subCM, great, now you have to switch out keldeo, go into some pursuit trapped and let it sub in your face and either CM depending if you don't bring the trapper in, or switch out with a sub up to live another day and let a set up sweeper set up on ttar's pursuit or force you to switch out and still set up, standard QD volcrona with giga drain(v. common) as an exmaple, it can set up on pursuit or still set up on the switch, letting it just demolish your team, and make you regret ever bringing in TTar in the first place, in that scene latias did not sweep you, but it caused a free turn/free turns for volcrona to sweep you. Thus making it a scary support threat at the same time.
Also, I mentioned that a lot of people predict it as SubCM or Specs/LO offensive, then get their asses handed to them, labeling it as predictable just because it doesn't do shit that you don't see as very common does not rule it out. That's like basing an arguement around pure usage, it simply does not work since it's effective and threatening, for instance HP fighting may be used rarely on latias but it prevents you from switching back in ttar after you see it the first time, letting it nail down your prediction game with latias to ONLY revenge killing latias after it DMs or psyshock kills (specs DM 2HKOs even sdef ttar on the switch after you HP fighting force it out the first time) and letting latias get 1 free kill that may be important to how the rest of the match goes. for instance, nailing specially defensive jellicent with a clean 50% through psyshock (252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 222-262 (54.95 - 64.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and then now you can switch out to Ebelt Keldeo and 2HKO jellicent's switch in once they see you've switched out to keldeo on their ttar (252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Dark/Ghost vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 110-130 (27.22 - 32.17%) -- possible 4HKO) making Latias a dangerous support to common sweepers (same could be said if you had to switch SDef Amoongus when you thought it was going to DM except it would have near OHKOd instead with psyshock- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Amoonguss: 416-492 (96.29 - 113.88%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO)
And back to your final argument- It's easily countered, would you enlighten me on how Keldeo is not easily countered without any support? Standard Specs with HP Fire (HP fire standard, not my HP fighting set)Latias can only be stopped in it's tracks by Tyranitar and The infamous specially defensive Jirachi when in weatherless/sand/hail - and yes, not even SubCM and 252 HP Rachi are safe after SR: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 204-242 (50.49 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, If we are assuming rain, you have 3 Counters (Scizor still 2HKOd by HP fire in rain LMAO)- Ferrothorn (can only take HP Fire in rain ;e; ), Sdef Tyranitar and Jirachis in general. While if it runs HP fighting specs, jirachi, metagross and bronzong are the only things to stop it (and the former 2 are barely viable in OU)
Now lets look at standard Keldeo; it has Latias, Amoongus, Celebi, Jellicent, Shaymin (read my RMT if you want to know why and how) is you want to consider lowly used things, Toxicroak, and I'm pretty sure some people have more since it's a suspect and all, and before you argue about Ebelt and scarf keldeo, we're comparing specs variants of both pokemon), Whereas if keldeo runs HP bug for Celebi, that's the only thing you remove from the list, still making it have more counters.
**(assuming proper prediction because assuming improper prediction just opens up like 99 uneeded pokemon for like every choice user ever)**
I'm not trying to say Latias is better than keldeo as a specs user, because come on, these two function way too differently to be fully compared, I'm just pointing out a flaw in your argument of "countered easily" , also I'm not saying Latias is the best thing in the word and it shoudl be banned, I certainly am not, I'm trying to say why it should be S rank an it's positive traits that certainly can be seen as S rank material.
Tbh I really can't be bothered to argue on why Latias isn't S rank material. Maybe you and I have two different opinions of what's "versatile" and "gimmicky". We'll just have to wait and see what PK Gaming has to say about Latias.
Okay, so this guy is actually PMing me telling me that he's pissed that I'm not replying to his argument, and assumes I'm elitist because I can't be bothered to go back and forth about why I don't think Latias is S rank material. But so be it.
The fact is that it has a way around each of it's counters that is viable, also HP Fighting isn't gimmcky as you call it, the simple fact is that your 2HKOing the least pressured switch in to Latias, Tyranitar, while handeling both Ferro and Heatran in any weather (assuming someone isn't running sdef tran in sun (as a experienced sun player, I can say that's bad, you stacking a duggy weakness on top of ninetales and heatran doesn't exactly do much for most sun teams where you could be running something else but that's another tidbit)) The simpel fact is that, it's not a gimmick at all, your 2HKOing your foes only switchins to Specs Draco Meteor, the fear isn't HP fighting itself, it's letting your ttar get 2HKOed by the next HP fighting coming your way and then basically letting latias spamming draco meteor + switching (where as if you didn't let ttar die to HP fighting you could have trapped it once it dropped itself to -2 with DM) become a win condition for your foe, nothing that otuspeeds latias on your team is likely both OHKOing it and switching into specs DM.
I mentioned all those sets because Latias runs them effectively, toxic stalling isn't good per-se in this meta, but latias does certainly run it better than most things you'll find out there, do to it's typing and bulk.
Okay, also in the usage stats, you'll notice that Toxic or Refresh is no where to be seen. Saying Latias is a better Toxic staller than most is wrong, and even if it somehow was better than Tentecruel, Gliscor, or Heatran at Toxic Stalling, that doesn't make Latias a good Toxic staller.
Also So basically, Latias switched in to secret sword and you know that it's subCM, great, now you have to switch out keldeo, go into some pursuit trapped and let it sub in your face and either CM depending if you don't bring the trapper in, or switch out with a sub up to live another day and let a set up sweeper set up on ttar's pursuit or force you to switch out and still set up, standard QD volcrona with giga drain(v. common) as an exmaple, it can set up on pursuit or still set up on the switch, letting it just demolish your team, and make you regret ever bringing in TTar in the first place, in that scene latias did not sweep you, but it caused a free turn/free turns for volcrona to sweep you. Thus making it a scary support threat at the same time.
Fact of the matter is, Tyranitar / Scizor / Jirachi still forced Latias out. I don't give a fuck if it goes into Volcarona, I stopped it's sweep, and forced it out. There's no point in bringing up Volcarona or any sweeper for that matter, that's not the point. You claimed in your first arguement that Latias requires no support, yet you just admitted that it's easily forced out by these Pokemon? Also, Tyranitar might not be able to Pursuit trap CM Latias, but Latias has just lost 25% health, and this is only assuming CM Latias. Any other set is easily trapped.
Also, I mentioned that a lot of people predict it as SubCM or Specs/LO offensive, then get their asses handed to them, labeling it as predictable just because it doesn't do shit that you don't see as very common does not rule it out. That's like basing an arguement around pure usage, it simply does not work since it's effective and threatening, for instance HP fighting may be used rarely on latias but it prevents you from switching back in ttar after you see it the first time, letting it nail down your prediction game with latias to ONLY revenge killing latias after it DMs or psyshock kills (specs DM 2HKOs even sdef ttar on the switch after you HP fighting force it out the first time) and letting latias get 1 free kill that may be important to how the rest of the match goes. for instance, nailing specially defensive jellicent with a clean 50% through psyshock (252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 222-262 (54.95 - 64.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and then now you can switch out to Ebelt Keldeo and 2HKO jellicent's switch in once they see you've switched out to keldeo on their ttar (252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Dark/Ghost vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 110-130 (27.22 - 32.17%) -- possible 4HKO) making Latias a dangerous support to common sweepers (same could be said if you had to switch SDef Amoongus when you thought it was going to DM except it would have near OHKOd instead with psyshock- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Amoonguss: 416-492 (96.29 - 113.88%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO)
Again, these gimmicks just don't exist. Look at those usage stats. Sure HP Fighting Latias can get past Tyranitar (and even that is questionable), but that's like saying Gyarados can get past Ferrothorn with Choice Specs Thunder, therefore it no longer counters it. Stop bringing up sets that don't exist.
And back to your final argument- It's easily countered, would you enlighten me on how Keldeo is not easily countered without any support? Standard Specs with HP Fire (HP fire standard, not my HP fighting set)Latias can only be stopped in it's tracks by Tyranitar and The infamous specially defensive Jirachi when in weatherless/sand/hail - and yes, not even SubCM and 252 HP Rachi are safe after SR: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 204-242 (50.49 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, If we are assuming rain, you have 3 Counters (Scizor still 2HKOd by HP fire in rain LMAO)- Ferrothorn (can only take HP Fire in rain ;e; ), Sdef Tyranitar and Jirachis in general. While if it runs HP fighting specs, jirachi, metagross and bronzong are the only things to stop it (and the former 2 are barely viable in OU)
Why are you bringing up Keldeo as if they are comparable? I for one don't think Keldeo should be S rank, so don't start arguing me "Well if Latias isn't S rank, then neither is Keldeo!!!!". Again, stop bringing up sets that don't exsist. No one uses Specs Latias.
4%. Wow, you're right, that's amazing. Also, locking yourself into HP Fire to nail Jirachi or Scizor leaves you so easily pursuit trapped, and even if you predict the Jirachi switch and HP Fire, you're still getting easily trapped by Tyranitar. By the way, saying there are only 3 counters to Latias is a huge exaggeration. Off the top of my head, I can think of Tyranitar, Scizor, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Metagross, Blissey, Chansey, Perish Song Toed, SpDef Hippowdon, SpDef Skarmory, Heatran, Bronzong and probably others.
Now lets look at standard Keldeo; it has Latias, Amoongus, Celebi, Jellicent, Shaymin (read my RMT if you want to know why and how) is you want to consider lowly used things, Toxicroak, and I'm pretty sure some people have more since it's a suspect and all, and before you argue about Ebelt and scarf keldeo, we're comparing specs variants of both pokemon), Whereas if keldeo runs HP bug for Celebi, that's the only thing you remove from the list, still making it have more counters.
I'm just pointing out a flaw in your argument of "countered easily" , also I'm not saying Latias is the best thing in the word and it shoudl be banned, I certainly am not, I'm trying to say why it should be S rank an it's positive traits that certainly can be seen as S rank material.
While I don't really agree with the "Latias for S rank movement" nor the reasoning behind it, I think usage stats are pretty shitty arguments, but whatever.
Edit: I was mearly trying to prove that HP Fighting is a gimmicky option, and still has it's draw backs. I wasn't saying Latias isn't used enough therefore it shouldn't bee S rank.
